So there's this whole movement on being green and reducing our carbon footprints and shit like that. Businesses have jumped on the bandwagon to be cool and not to appear as though they're evil corporations. It's all a load of bollocks really.

If people really cared about this planet, they'd stop mass-producing goods immediately. Mass production ONLY benefits the big bosses in charge of a given company; no one else. Not the government, not the people, not anyone else whatsoever. Ok, so mass-production may be responsible for driving down prices to us 'consumers', but that's only benefitting us in the short term, and there's a whole tonne of negative externalities we neglect to consider.

Look around your house, and try to remember the things you once had in your house. All the shit you have which has been rolled off a production line will probably last/has lasted you 5 years or so, maybe even less before you replace the given item. Furniture/electronics/cars .etc .etc Every time you replace this item, you're going to spend more money (effort) in replacing these items and in the long run you're going to end up spending much more than if you bought something quality in the first place. Look in old estates: the furniture in houses there has lasted for centuries; yet in my house my mum replaces a cabinet every 5 years or so - it's just stupid.

But money's not even the most important aspect here. All this mass-production, and constant replacing of goods is using up MASSIVE amounts of resources in the process. Through all of us wanting the brand new ipod when it comes out, we're bit by bit decreasing the amount of time we, as a species, may be able to spend on this planet. Or if you're selfish enough to not give a fuck, then this constant demand for resources is driving up the prices and fuelling instability in the world. If we just calmed the fuck down as 'consumers' - fuel prices would inevitably be lower. Just try to imagine how much oil needs to be used in order to produce all the plastic we demand in the world: it's an incomprehendable amount.

You're bound to now argue that this constant rush for new products drives innovation, and yes, it does - if Apple didn't constantly try to constantly make as much money as possible out of us, we'd probably have 1gb ipods instead of 1900909199191gb ipods. Ok, I'm being a bit harsh - but on the whole, do we actually need these new 'innovations'? Bar medicine and important stuff like that - items not driven by a consumer market (I think), people lived perfectly fine in the past. People weren't as reliant on being a slave to the consumer rat race, and actually used their minds and creativity to find fun. Tell me, what's more beneficial to society: children who try to make their own fun, or children who watch mind numbing TV programmes all day? And also, this rush for innovation isn't good at all. Look at how much we've developed in the last 100 years, and look at the social problems our consumer driven innovations have caused: look at the alienation our generation faces. This boom in product development has been like a huge shock to our species and has put us on the edge. If we keep on developing and developing and developing, we're not going to be able to keep up. We're going to be way above our heads and fuck up all what's great about the human race. We need to take a step back and just calm it for a while. Innovation won't ever stop, it'll just happen at a slower rate. There's no big rush is there?

Additionally, the quality of mass produced products suck ass. They're boring, plastic, soul-less pieces of shit. The more and more we submit ourselves to them, the closer we will come to being like machines: only caring about effiency and whatnot: not giving a fuck about the effort which has gone into something; it's artistic value; it's history .etc The cheap goods we're producing are also destroying livelihoods and cultures, and costing us jobs, in the process; replacing them with huge multinational corporations who are more powerful than some nations - but that's a whole other area.


Basically, the bottom line is. We're trading quality, culture and stability for quantity, depletion, alienation and instability: not a good way to go.

Before you whinge about me being a hypocrit by enjoying Totse. I'd rather be on an 1989 underground dial up Totse than the one today.

Please discard all of your mass produced items and go live in the forest like the hippie faggot you are. :)

Please discard all of your mass produced items and go live in the forest like the hippie faggot you are. :)

wow0ow0ow0ww. Nice logic you fucking idiot.

they'd stop mass-producing goods immediately. Mass production ONLY benefits the big bosses in charge of a given company; no one else.

Gross oversimplification and impossibility. Some crap should be eliminated but other things should just be made better. If the life expectancy of a lot of products could be increased by factors of 3 to 10 then their environmental footprint could be reduced considerably.

DT

People have been saying this since forever, but it is true we've been getting increasingly consumeristic, goods are not made to last, they're build cheaply, they break fast and most importantly they are marketed to follow some current trend, so even if they still keep on working they'll look outdated in a matter of months and people will discard them.

Just look at how often people change their cars, it's not like you really need to you just want one that looks better or increases your social status.

In my little I'm quite proud of myself, I've been using the same Mac for over five years now, I've had the same iPod for 3 years and my phone for at least a year, the sad thing is that people around me change those things like every six months.

Gross oversimplification and impossibility. Some crap should be eliminated but other things should just be made better. If the life expectancy of a lot of products could be increased by factors of 3 to 10 then their environmental footprint could be reduced considerably.

DT

And if the life expectancy of products is increased... big corporations don't make their money. The old 80's american cars made out of steel vs. the carbon fibre cars of today... which one is more durable? Obvs the 80's. Which one do they make now? Obvs the one that breaks down and fucks up easier... so you have to buy more and more.

They realised what you're saying is healthier for our enviorment... but then they realised the opposite is healthier for their wallets. As if, when you die, those millions go with you... Oh wait! They don't. Oh well... leave it to fat american businessmen to be greedy and think that money matters most in life.


EDIT: Damn you Luk... beat me to the overall point.

wow0ow0ow0ww. Nice logic you fucking idiot.

My logic is a lot better than yours and it didn't take me seven paragraphs to make my point. :rolleyes:

My logic is a lot better than yours and it didn't take me seven paragraphs to make my point. :rolleyes:

Keep telling yourself that mate.

P.s. rolleyes smiley gives you +10 bonus points.

Sorry bro, we've been on this road ever since agriculture was invented.

Sorry bro, we've been on this road ever since agriculture was invented.

So? Does that make it ok for companies to keep wasting OUR resources (they have no more right to them than we do) on producing useless throwaway shit which have no real positive externalities?

You can't compare food to ipods.

In fact, mass production is a lot more energy efficient than any other form of production. The energy used per unit produced is less than that with any other form of production, and hence less environmentally damaging. And since demand would be unlikely to go down, all this would achieve would be to raise prices. Besides, with products like the BIC Biro, high volume production is the only way to produce enough anyway. How do you propose we produce necessary items?

In my little I'm quite proud of myself, I've been using the same Mac for over five years now, I've had the same iPod for 3 years and my phone for at least a year, the sad thing is that people around me change those things like every six months.

I know. Especially the Phones. ESPECIALLY THE PHONES

I can understand upgrading laptops every 2-3 years (man, my laptop is old and starting to mess up in some places)

In fact, mass production is a lot more energy efficient than any other form of production. The energy used per unit produced is less than that with any other form of production, and hence less environmentally damaging. And since demand would be unlikely to go down, all this would achieve would be to raise prices. Besides, with products like the BIC Biro, high volume production is the only way to produce enough anyway. How do you propose we produce necessary items?

Of course, it's more energy efficient per unit produced, but it's just the fact that mass-production tends to encourage mass-consumption. When firms produce in bulk, they want to sell in bulk, and competitors in order to remain competitive have to follow suit and try to outdo their rivals: build bigger factories; lower prices of goods; put less effort into each unit; charge workers less .etc .etc It's a bit of a never ending cycle.

Local producion and smaller firms would use up more energy in the short term, but higher prices would slow down consumption and encourage consumers to value products more, and it would also be likely that locally produced goods will be of higher quality and would have some kind of artistic value meaning they wouldn't need to be replaced so quickly.

Instead of using 100 biros a year, how about we just purchase a well made, quality pen for £20 or more, made by a local tradesman, which we will be sure to take care of, and which will last us a lot longer?

I know. Especially the Phones. ESPECIALLY THE PHONES

I can understand upgrading laptops every 2-3 years (man, my laptop is old and starting to mess up in some places)

Yeah, the phone market is a bit shitty. Just think how much of the planet's resources are going towards phone production, and think about how many people the industry employs - these people could be doing something useful like feeding the people of the world or finding cures for diseases instead of marketting and whatnot.

How I feel about "saving the planet"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

I'm selfish. I don't care about others. As long as MY enviorment is nice I'm content.

So? Does that make it ok for companies to keep wasting OUR resources (they have no more right to them than we do) on producing useless throwaway shit which have no real positive externalities?

You can't compare food to ipods.

Ahem, did you not mention that you purchased an iPod, an Apple computer, and a cellphone? :rolleyes: They wouldn't be producing this garbage if hypocrites like you weren't buying it. Even though I disagree with you, I wouldn't be surprised if I consume less than you. I have neither a cellphone nor an iPod, I just have a decent quality PC. :)

How I feel about "saving the planet"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

I'm selfish. I don't care about others. As long as MY enviorment is nice I'm content.

People like you are the reason capitalism fails.

Ahem, did you not mention that you purchased an iPod, an Apple computer, and a cellphone? :rolleyes: They wouldn't be producing this garbage if hypocrites like you weren't buying it. Even though I disagree with you, I wouldn't be surprised if I consume less than you. I have neither a cellphone nor an iPod, I just have a decent quality PC. :)

Haha, sorry I shouldn't really be passing judgements.

In all honesty though, I'm pretty much the same as you - apart from my PC I don't really have much at all.

Even if I was a hypocrit, there's still millions of other idiots out there whose mindless consumerism is fucking up things for everyone else. It's obvious that the planet isn't going to support our current lifestyles, so something needs to be done - do we try and educate or take down the people at the top by force? Or maybe both? Or maybe just leave everything be and hope for the best...

People like you are the reason capitalism fails.

capitalism is essentially a euphemism for selfishness...explain how I'm completely buying into the system by worrying about myself?

Plus, everyone is like me, altruism is make believe, all anyone cares about is themselves. Regardless of what you think. I'm one of the very few honest people you'll ever meet. Most people are incapable of coming to terms with the truth and you seem to fall into that category.

I'm on the path to the ubermensch, you on the other hand, are fenced in with the rest of the herd suckling from the teet of false ethics and slave morality which only captivate you due to the sweet taste, distracting you from the fat pig your becoming. Enjoy living a life of mediocrity and disappointment.

Instead of using 100 biros a year, how about we just purchase a well made, quality pen for £20 or more, made by a local tradesman, which we will be sure to take care of, and which will last us a lot longer?

I'm not saying that our society is not severely screwed up and incredibly wasteful, but what you are proposing is turning the clock back on the industrial revolution. You say that people could make food or cure diseases instead of making phones, but without an economy of scale they're all going to be too busy making pens.

There are things that we need to mass produce. Important things that cannot be produced by hand. Computers, and any other electronics, as have been mentioned, come to mind. So does paper. And toilet paper. Toothbrushes. Tell me you want a local tradesman to make your fucking toothbrushes. That would be nasty. Food. As it stands, if large scale agriculture ceased, billions of people would die. We've come to depend on those massive amounts less than 2% of the population is able to churn out thanks to modern technology.

What we need isn't a return to the 1700's. Making bread and soap from scratch would suck so much ass it's not even funny. It would not solve the essential problem: we are forced, to a large extent, to waste our time on bullshit. We could have everything we need with less than half the population working part time jobs, but instead we have to have jobs so we can produce things and get money to buy the things others produce to feed the economy.

Haha, sorry I shouldn't really be passing judgements.

In all honesty though, I'm pretty much the same as you - apart from my PC I don't really have much at all.

Even if I was a hypocrit, there's still millions of other idiots out there whose mindless consumerism is fucking up things for everyone else. It's obvious that the planet isn't going to support our current lifestyles, so something needs to be done - do we try and educate or take down the people at the top by force? Or maybe both? Or maybe just leave everything be and hope for the best...

Alright, in many ways I agree with you and I'll admit that I was a bit too harsh to begin with. I'm just sick of all the hypocrites trying to stop me from getting a few plastic bags at the supermarket while buying tons of CDs, coffees, clothes, and other trendy crap that just ends up in the garbage within a month or two. I live a pretty frugal lifestyle and agree that reducing consumerist waste is a good idea; however, I think it's best if change is made through individual responsibility rather than government regulation.

I agree Chimro - stopping the mass production of all consumer goods is exactly what your country needs right at this moment in order to solve all your economic problems..Oh wait, no it would cause a massive collapse of the economy...D'oh!

I agree Chimro - stopping the mass production of all consumer goods is exactly what your country needs right at this moment in order to solve all your economic problems..Oh wait, no it would cause a massive collapse of the economy...D'oh!

Maybe starting over from the bottom rung might be a good thing...

Maybe starting over from the bottom rung might be a good thing...

until you're bitching and complaining that you can't eat...

Maybe starting over from the bottom rung might be a good thing...

Do a trial-run by living for five years out in a massive wilderness with no tools besides what you can make with your own hands, and then tell us how it goes.

blah blah blah

As you sit on a chair, watching a monitor, hooked up to a computer.

All mass produced.

Do a trial-run by living for five years out in a massive wilderness with no tools besides what you can make with your own hands, and then tell us how it goes.

Hey... just because you're too weak and powerless to fend for yourself doesn't mean the rest of us aren't. We're not all 14 year old fatasses sitting at our computers like you, some of us have taken survival training and know how to live without all of this plushness that America offers.

And plus... whoever said you had to start back in the wilderness? A market economy crash isn't going to automatically destroy buildings and the things we have now. You're absurd.

Hey... just because you're too weak and powerless to fend for yourself doesn't mean the rest of us aren't. We're not all 14 year old fatasses sitting at our computers like you, some of us have taken survival training and know how to live without all of this plushness that America offers.

And plus... whoever said you had to start back in the wilderness? A market economy crash isn't going to automatically destroy buildings and the things we have now. You're absurd.

I guess your just a big man than aren't you - OoOhH I took a weekend survival course so now I can survive the breakdown of organized society. Your the one defending the complete interruption of American consumerism which would destroy the economy i.e.) my way of life, your way of life, and everyones way of life.

I think you should take better stock of who is the absurd one...

Alright, I barely read any of this thread.

Mass production isn't that bad, it's the unnecessary process involved in it. When we make plastics, fabric, products, or whatever, we add a ton of toxins and chemicals to all the raw materials we use, rendering them spoilt for recycling, combine this with the intentionally short product life of basically any consumer product thats been designed since the Second World War, and the fact we just bury it when anything breaks or something shinier comes along.

If we stopped putting toxins into our products, designed everything for extreme longevity, and recycled literally everything we use (why not? burying refined materials is just stupid, we already took them out the ground once) then we could get alot more from our planet.

But this isn't going to happen, because if something isn't broken people aren't going to buy a new one, people in ownership of the means of production won't make as much money, miner's don't need to excavate so much raw material and whatnot.

Edit: And also, we don't need 60% of the stuff we own, we are just made to need it, through advertisements and glossy magazines with a handsome man wearing some cologne of something.

I guess your just a big man than aren't you - OoOhH I took a weekend survival course so now I can survive the breakdown of organized society. Your the one defending the complete interruption of American consumerism which would destroy the economy i.e.) my way of life, your way of life, and everyones way of life.

I think you should take better stock of who is the absurd one...

Actually, that's a vagina between my legs...

And just because you're too much of a bitch to start over from the beginning doesn't mean I'm absurd... it means you've got a small amount of heart and you're too scared of change.

Actually, that's a vagina between my legs...

And just because you're too much of a bitch to start over from the beginning doesn't mean I'm absurd... it means you've got a small amount of heart and you're too scared of change.

No, I enjoy my capitalism thank you. I'm not scared of change, I don't WANT change (in the sense you mean...Vote Obama). Just because YOU so clearly can't 'make it' within the system you feel that something is wrong with it - when realistically the fault can be found in yourself. Here's a tip, instead of survival courses maybe you should take a business course or two and try contributing (through commercial enterprise or investment) to the community as a whole. Then maybe you would stop wishing it's downfall and start reaping the benefits of our wonderful system like the rest of us are.

no, i enjoy my capitalism thank you. I'm not scared of change, i don't want change (in the sense you mean...vote obama). Just because you so clearly can't 'make it' within the system you feel that something is wrong with it - when realistically the fault can be found in yourself. Here's a tip, instead of survival courses maybe you should take a business course or two and try contributing (through commercial enterprise or investment) to the community as a whole. Then maybe you would stop wishing it's downfall and start reaping the benefits of our wonderful system like the rest of us are.

12345

Alright, I barely read any of this thread.

Mass production isn't that bad, it's the unnecessary process involved in it. When we make plastics, fabric, products, or whatever, we add a ton of toxins and chemicals to all the raw materials we use, rendering them spoilt for recycling, combine this with the intentionally short product life of basically any consumer product thats been designed since the Second World War, and the fact we just bury it when anything breaks or something shinier comes along.

If we stopped putting toxins into our products, designed everything for extreme longevity, and recycled literally everything we use (why not? burying refined materials is just stupid, we already took them out the ground once) then we could get alot more from our planet.

But this isn't going to happen, because if something isn't broken people aren't going to buy a new one, people in ownership of the means of production won't make as much money, miner's don't need to excavate so much raw material and whatnot.

Edit: And also, we don't need 60% of the stuff we own, we are just made to need it, through advertisements and glossy magazines with a handsome man wearing some cologne of something.

Nice post.
This is what I'm trying to get at. Of course I don't believe ALL stuff should stop being mass-produced, and I'm not really a hippified eco-warrior fag: I'm just trying to stir up some interesting debate by giving a bit of a controversial OP.


I agree Chimro - stopping the mass production of all consumer goods is exactly what your country needs right at this moment in order to solve all your economic problems..Oh wait, no it would cause a massive collapse of the economy...D'oh!

The reason why you're economy is fucking up is because you're trying to cover up an obvious truth; that your current lifestyles are unsustainable, with complex and arbitrary financial and economic systems.

The truth is that you're wasting MASSES of resources for no real beneficial purpose: your population is becoming more and more disassociated with reality, and becoming trapped in some mindless consumer ratrace, causing a tonne of deep social problems and debt. You've been living on a high: exploiting nations across the planet for cheap labour and resources, and your due for a huge comedown. It's inevitable that as other nations start 'catching up' with the 'developed' world, exploitation is becoming less and less possible, and the ex-beneficiaries, namingly the western world, are not going to be able to sustain their current lifestyles.

Whilst halting ALL mass-production will cause huge shock therapy to your nation, we/you seriously should be doing something about this whole 'consumer lifestyle'.

The reason why you're economy is fucking up is because you're trying to cover up an obvious truth; that your current lifestyles are unsustainable, with complex and arbitrary financial and economic systems.

The truth is that you're wasting MASSES of resources for no real beneficial purpose: your population is becoming more and more disassociated with reality, and becoming trapped in some mindless consumer ratrace, causing a tonne of deep social problems and debt. You've been living on a high: exploiting nations across the planet for cheap labour and resources, and your due for a huge comedown. It's inevitable that as other nations start 'catching up' with the 'developed' world, exploitation is becoming less and less possible, and the ex-beneficiaries, namingly the western world, are not going to be able to sustain their current lifestyles.

Whilst halting ALL mass-production will cause huge shock therapy to your nation, we/you seriously should be doing something about this whole 'consumer lifestyle'.

MY economy is doing just fine thank you. And I don't know where your getting your information regarding Canada's exploitation of countries 'across the globe' - but that seems at odds with what I've known as a citizen here for my entire life...

Where the hell are you from that you don't have a 'consumer lifestyle' - some third world shithole? Once we get rid of our 'consumer culture' where do you suggest we get all the capital that gets freed up by consumer spending? I'm talking 1/3 of the economy here people - consumerism isn't BAD, it's healthy!

MY economy is doing just fine thank you. And I don't know where your getting your information regarding Canada's exploitation of countries 'across the globe' - but that seems at odds with what I've known as a citizen here for my entire life...

Once we get rid of our 'consumer culture' where do you suggest we get all the capital that gets freed up by consumer spending? I'm talking 1/3 of the economy here people - consumerism isn't BAD, it's healthy!

Capital is just natural resources and human resources. Why do you need lots of consumer spending in order to find new resources or make humans work 110% harder? Mindless consumption just wastes resources: both human and natural, and therefore makes them rarer: pushing up the price for EVERYONE. Through doing this, not only are you fucking yourselves over in the long term, but you're also denying others around the world the oppurtunity to live a comfortable life: all through greed.

1/3 of your economy; 1/3 of your nations output is going towards supporting the production of mostly needless bullshit. It's not healthy, all this human effort and all these resources could be going towards scientific development or something.

1/3 of your economy; 1/3 of your nations output is going towards supporting the production of mostly needless bullshit. It's not healthy, all this human effort and all these resources could be going towards scientific development or something.

Or, better yet, give it back to us. I'm sick of the idea that all of our efforts should be directed towards the advancement of society. What about some time to pursue personal dreams and ideas? A persons time is far more valuable to him than it is to someone else. The time you spend alive is all you have; it should belong to you, not to the common good or the economy or other people.

Or, better yet, give it back to us. I'm sick of the idea that all of our efforts should be directed towards the advancement of society. What about some time to pursue personal dreams and ideas? A persons time is far more valuable to him than it is to someone else. The time you spend alive is all you have; it should belong to you, not to the common good or the economy or other people.

Or even that yeah.

1000s of years ago, people probably worked 7 hours a day or whatever.

Now we have amazing levels of technology and we're still working the same hours every day.

Surely more technology means we should have more free time?

I know new technology creates new jobs and stuff, but this abundance of useless material goods shows that we could cut down the hours we work...

Or even that yeah.

1000s of years ago, people probably worked 7 hours a day or whatever.

Now we have amazing levels of technology and we're still working the same hours every day.

Surely more technology means we should have more free time?

I know new technology creates new jobs and stuff, but this abundance of useless material goods shows that we could cut down the hours we work...

You know over in italy they did some tests and said people are only most productive for 4-5 hours a day, so they split their work up and take siestas.

America could gain to study the rest of the world... or we can keep dwindling further and further into recession and depression. Speculation helps ruin consumerism too.

How cool would it be if instead of as energy efficient RISC processor with a billion transistors per inch my computer had a special one of a kind model made especially by the blacksmith down the road with a chisel and mallet.

And my OS was made by local cooperatives sharing coding tasks.

And my keyboard was hand-crafted from wood...

Speculation helps ruin consumerism too.

How do you figure?

I thought the poster complaining about the lack of effort which goes into producing a good was interesting.
*Brandishes _The Mating Mind_*

That said, your point is valid. People do not need to spend vast amounts of money on things to:
1) Survive (seriously, several thousand a year gets you a rented (or co-rented) dwelling and plenty of food)
2) Have fun toys (Especially if you buy ones with persistent value, like guns)

But people desire to have new stuff, because it demonstrates wealth and thus evolutionary fitness. And a high level of apparent fitness got your ancestors fucked.
*Brandishes _TMM_*

******

Oh, and if you want to see durable goods, just look at places where the fashion is "conservative design": Guns, Knives, spoons
Or where profit is important to the consumer: Office goods, industrial machinery

How do you figure?

Gas being 4 dollars a gallon is mostly due to speculators buying and selling creating an imaginary shortage, which causes the price to skyrocket.

Allright, after searching through my bookmarks, I've finally found the site which details most of the stuff I wrote about in my first post.

http://www.storyofstuff.com/index.html

Please discard all of your mass produced items and go live in the forest like the hippie faggot you are. :)

QFT

Revvy is a fucktard.

Allright, after searching through my bookmarks, I've finally found the site which details most of the stuff I wrote about in my first post.

http://www.storyofstuff.com/index.html

Thanks man. That was a great watch.

Shit like this should be taught in schools.

They realised what you're saying is healthier for our enviorment... but then they realised the opposite is healthier for their wallets. As if, when you die, those millions go with you... Oh wait! They don't. Oh well... leave it to fat american businessmen to be greedy and think that money matters most in life.


EDIT: Damn you Luk... beat me to the overall point.

Fat american businessman? I believe Japan has the US automotive industry at it's knees, as both ford and GM are hurting considerably, so maybe you should re-direct your anger you ignorant fuck.

Some things in your video pissed me off through their deceptive nature.
Here I assemble a list.

"1/3rd of the national resource base has been consumed"
What does this even mean? How does one sum apples, oranges, and pomegranates into a single metric?

There's no such thing as an "original forrest", especially in the US.
Forests are dynamic ecosystems; they never mature, and they are constantly being replaced. Her complaint that only 4% of forests have never been messed with is thus somewhat... irrelevant.

Fisheries?
I thought this was about STUFF! We EAT fish, not make tires out of them.

Most Amazonian forest loss, IIRC, is due to agriculture. Which probably annoys the exotic hardwood people as much as it does the environmentalists.

Just shut up about the toxins. You are embarrassing yourself.
And frankly, I rather like modern polymers.

Bioaccumulating toxins ALWAYS concentrate to the highest degree in the last critter in the food chain. Because milk production and the subsequent consumption looks a lot like cannibalism on a microscopic scale, and we are that last critter, it is unavoidable that milk has such a high concentration of toxic chemicals.

Oh, come on. Factories are moved overseas for the low labor costs, not Americas stringent environmental laws...

Oh, I'm sorry. The uneducated people of one of the most advanced nations in the world aren't able to secure an awesome job with benefits and shit. Maybe they should get some training and proceed to get a real job, or shut the fuck up about their problems.
Besides, what would they do with heaps of money, except BUY stuff. Which is evil, right? So it's GOOD that big-box-mart doesn't pay the employees very much, right?

5$ is a significant amount of money, especially considering the pay scales of some of the production workers. If you are surprised that 5$ can buy so stuff, you haven't thought about the consequences of specialization, mass production, and mechanization.
IE, it'd take YOU a week to make a clay pot, but the potter already knows exactly how to best dig the clay, where the clay is, and has twenty years of practice (and some cool tools)... so he can throw the pot together in 15 minutes.

The ability to acquire or make (which requires acquisition of free time and materials) has always been a primary measure of an individuals worth. Because it takes effort, and thus can serve as a Handicap on survival chances. (and handicaps are inherently sexy, which means it got your consumerist ancestors laid)

Define "A few years".
We still have a computer from before 2000AD kicking around, being useful. For communication and other computer-type stuff.
Now, we wouldn't want to do raytracing or computational analysis on it, because it has a 300-some MHZ core, but it runs word, firefox... all sorts of fun stuff.

"each new computer chip is a different shape"
eh, DDR2 is pretty old stuff, no?
As is SATA, RAID
And the PSU
And...oh, you are complaining about the CPU? Yeah, it changes shape. My understanding is that you kindof have to add more pins and redesign the motherboard to enable more information bandwidth...
Besides, it costs a couple hundred bucks, so you might as well just keep using the same old CPU for half a decade. Afterall, we wouldn't want to throw out something so valuable, now would we?

5years*365days/year*4hours/day*.2kwh/h*.08$/hwh = 100$ of energy wasted by your CRT. Perhaps not the best example you could have chosen, but it'll work for another decade.

4.5 pounds/day
NOT I, says the BLB.

If Dioxin is naturally occurring, then why shouldn't man-made botox be counted? Surely it has a LD50 lower than 20 mcg/kg.

********

To long/didn't read people:
STOP LYING TO SUPPORT SOMETHING BLB ALREADY AGREES WITH!

**********

The solution to planned obsolescence is review sites. Now if only they can cover stuff like mops... all reviewcentre has, for instance, is swiffer-type products and powered mops. (powered mops!?!)

**********

"Whole communities get wasted"
Sounds like a college! LOLZ

Fat american businessman? I believe Japan has the US automotive industry at it's knees, as both ford and GM are hurting considerably, so maybe you should re-direct your anger you ignorant fuck.

Oh really? You mean Cars are the only thing you can buy in America? HOLY SHIT! STOP THE FUCKING PRESS! ALERT MASS MEDIA! This man's just figured out our problem! We're unable to have a good economy because we can only buy cars and foreign made cars are way better. Don't worry about the fact that a gallon of milk is more expensive than a gallon of gas in most states. Don't mind the steroids put in your farm animals to speed up their growth. Don't mind the one-stop shopping centers like wal-marx that force other businesses to close while they're prices just get higher and higher for a less than quality product that keeps diminishing in value... Nope, none of that is a problem. We gotta worry about import cars. Yep. That's our BIGGEST problem as a country.

Oh wait... again... you're an idiot. If cars were what I was worried about, I'd be talking about Germans and Japanese who make superb cars, but I'm not. I'm talking about greedy american businessmen. Now please... shut the fuck up.

Gas being 4 dollars a gallon is mostly due to speculators buying and selling creating an imaginary shortage, which causes the price to skyrocket.

No, your wrong. People that think speculation is the cause of all our oil troubles are retarded. To think that futures and put options is what cause oil to be at 130 a barrel is insane. Although, like you, a lot of sheep prefer to jump on the bandwagon...

Look at iron ore and other raw commodities. Ore isn't traded on commercial exchange, but regulated between producers and consumers - therefore speculation plays no part in it's pricing. But, because of emerging demand from areas like China and India for raw materials, the price of ore rose about 96% in the last year. This is supply and demand at its finest, and it isn't only happening with oil.

You might see the price of oil start to slip as the American consumer begins to use less and go for alternate energy, but don't fool yourself into thinking speculators can be blamed for the oil crisis and that we will ever see oil at 50$ a barrel ever again.

Why do you hate business so much Masero? Do you think money is a bad thing? Wealthier communities are healthier communities. Stopping the production of mass good would ruin the economy and quality of life of any country that decided to do it. Even if it would possible to get by eking out a living while homeless and starving, do you think most people would WANT to allow their quality of life to deteriorate to this point? Who the hell wants another depression? Wait, you must be an angst filled high schooler who doesn't know what the real world is like...I'm going to tell myself that so that I don't have to face the fact that there might be some grown men and women in the world who actually believe that this is a good idea...

No, your wrong. People that think speculation is the cause of all our oil troubles are retarded. To think that futures and put options is what cause oil to be at 130 a barrel is insane. Although, like you, a lot of sheep prefer to jump on the bandwagon...

Look at iron ore and other raw commodities. Ore isn't traded on commercial exchange, but regulated between producers and consumers - therefore speculation plays no part in it's pricing. But, because of emerging demand from areas like China and India for raw materials, the price of ore rose about 96% in the last year. This is supply and demand at its finest, and it isn't only happening with oil.

You might see the price of oil start to slip as the American consumer begins to use less and go for alternate energy, but don't fool yourself into thinking speculators can be blamed for the oil crisis and that we will ever see oil at 50$ a barrel ever again.

Why do you hate business so much Masero? Do you think money is a bad thing? Wealthier communities are healthier communities. Stopping the production of mass good would ruin the economy and quality of life of any country that decided to do it. Even if it would possible to get by eking out a living while homeless and starving, do you think most people would WANT to allow their quality of life to deteriorate to this point? Who the hell wants another depression? Wait, you must be an angst filled high schooler who doesn't know what the real world is like...I'm going to tell myself that so that I don't have to face the fact that there might be some grown men and women in the world who actually believe that this is a good idea...


Where did I say I hated businesses? Just because I hate greedy CEO's doesn't mean I hate businesses. I just know that some people are not in it for the greater good, they're in it to line their pockets, which makes NO SENSE because that money doesn't do shit when you're dead and keeping it "in the family" does nothing to help the economy and it ends up hurting everyone else. But I suppose you're not worried about that b/c the small community of the rich don't mind the middle and lower classes being fucked over, as long as they do their jobs right?

Where did I say I hated businesses? Just because I hate greedy CEO's doesn't mean I hate businesses. I just know that some people are not in it for the greater good, they're in it to line their pockets, which makes NO SENSE because that money doesn't do shit when you're dead and keeping it "in the family" does nothing to help the economy and it ends up hurting everyone else. But I suppose you're not worried about that b/c the small community of the rich don't mind the middle and lower classes being fucked over, as long as they do their jobs right?

By spending money on consumer items the rich help the economy, which in turn helps the middle and lower classes. It's not a sin to be rich. It seems that what you don't understand is that rich people spend way more than poor people thus being more beneficial to the community. It's not like the family of a CEO who dies and decides to keep it 'in the family' is going to sock all that money away in a mattress and not spend it - no, their going to continue spending it on consumer goods, houses, automobiles, etc.

Just a question, how many CEO's do you know? Personally I mean? As an angst ridden teen I can only assume that you don't specifically hate CEO's, just the general idea of capitalism. I suppose you'd be happier if we all lazed around under the failed idea of global communism eh you filthy pinko.

By spending money on consumer items the rich help the economy, which in turn helps the middle and lower classes. It's not a sin to be rich. It seems that what you don't understand is that rich people spend way more than poor people thus being more beneficial to the community. It's not like the family of a CEO who dies and decides to keep it 'in the family' is going to sock all that money away in a mattress and not spend it - no, their going to continue spending it on consumer goods, houses, automobiles, etc.

Just a question, how many CEO's do you know? Personally I mean? As an angst ridden teen I can only assume that you don't specifically hate CEO's, just the general idea of capitalism. I suppose you'd be happier if we all lazed around under the failed idea of global communism eh you filthy pinko.

I'm not some dirty left wing liberal communist, but okay. Nor am I some angst ridden teenager. And I actually know a moderate amount of CEOs. I don't see the need to have to prove it to some guy on totse, but I've seen enough corruption with my own eyes.

I'm sorry that you over-generalize and pretend that you can "pick people out of the crowd". I support capitalism but I know it's got serious flaws and greed happens to be one of them.

No, your wrong. People that think speculation is the cause of all our oil troubles are retarded. To think that futures and put options is what cause oil to be at 130 a barrel is insane. Although, like you, a lot of sheep prefer to jump on the bandwagon...

It might not be the soul cause, but does it contribute in any way? I honestly have no idea. I personally get the impression that because everyone's talking about this big crisis approaching, and oil prices are all over the news, that this attitude is going to reflect on the speculation of prices for these goods, and it's going to kind of fuel the negative effects of it all.

Is it fair to say this, or?


Why do you hate business so much Masero? Do you think money is a bad thing? Wealthier communities are healthier communities. Stopping the production of mass good would ruin the economy and quality of life of any country that decided to do it. Even if it would possible to get by eking out a living while homeless and starving, do you think most people would WANT to allow their quality of life to deteriorate to this point? Who the hell wants another depression? Wait, you must be an angst filled high schooler who doesn't know what the real world is like...I'm going to tell myself that so that I don't have to face the fact that there might be some grown men and women in the world who actually believe that this is a good idea...

Obviously I can't speak for Masero, but your viewpoint probably is applicable to me aswell if you judge me from what I've said in this thread.

Of course wealth and enterprise is a good thing for any community, we're not really arguing this. Most people like me are just against huge overly powerful corporations taking control of things. The existance of these huge companies is bad for our wealth and enterprise. Look at the amount of supernormal profits these companies make - it's absolutely huge. All this money (human effort) is money which has been extracted from society and disproportionately put back. The trillions of dollars which sit in various bank accounts are a result of days and days of human efforts and natural resources and no ones benefitting from this - they're just trophies. If less huge supra-national corporations existed, and we saw them replaced with more, local smaller businesses, we wouldn't be seeing trillions of dollars being extracted from communities, but this money would be pumped into local economies for the benefit of everyone. There's the whole responsibility and quality of goods side of things aswell. When people work for bigger companies, it's easy to become alienated in this whole system and feel worthless, but if you're working for your family run supermarket, you can see the purpose of it all, and are also more likely to provide a better service because you're working for yourself: not some random shareholders or big CEO or whatever.

Then there's the whole enterprise side of things. With the existance of these huge companies, it's pretty hard to get a foot in the market because you can just be forced out by other companies before you're even started: their economies of scale just shadow yours and it's impossible to compete without risking getting into lots of debt.

I'm not for the stopping of mass production of ALL goods, I just said this in the thread to generate a bit of controversy and disussion on the issue: which thankfully has worked, and I've learnt quite a bit already. I just think that we should calm it down a little bit until reach reach an equilibrium point.

When you're mass producing goods everywhere and enjoying huge economies of scale all over the board, you may be running at very high efficiency: but there's also lots of negative externalities: less jobs generated, the fuelling of a consumer culture, thus wasting of resources. I tried making a diagram but I failed, but basically what we need to do is somehow find an equilibrium, where we can produce goods at a sustainable rate, which allows everyone to be employed for a reasonable wage: whilst maximising efficiency as much as possible

I personally believe the best way to go about this is to destroy this consumer culture and somehow have it so that the purpose of businesses aren't to profit, but to provide the best service possible; that instead of mass producing a lot of shitty units which are designed to be thrown away, companies focus on making the best quality product; products to last. You might think that if you slow down the whole consumer process and people are buying less, the economy will crash, but I disagree. As long as people have money, they're going to spend it, we just need to worry about the price of these goods, and whether these people have jobs.

By producing less, higher quality goods, as opposed to lots of low quality goods, there's going to be no huge drop in employment - people may be buying less, but the increasing of quality means that workers have to spend more time on a given unit. Instead of paying a worker £100 to produce 5 units, he'd be paid £100 to produce 1 unit of a much much higher quality. Now of course, this will lead to higher costs, but this isn't a problem either because instead of buying 5 units at £1 each, people will just buy 1 for £5. Everything pretty much stays the same, but in the process we're using up less resources; workers will have to put effort into production, as opposed to standing on a conveyor belt, and overall our quality of life will increase as higher costs means we learn to appreciate our products more, and come off this whole materialistic lifestyle.

workers are going to spend more time producing goods, and purchasers are going to have to save longer in order to purchase these goods.

I'm not some dirty left wing liberal communist, but okay. Nor am I some angst ridden teenager. And I actually know a moderate amount of CEOs. I don't see the need to have to prove it to some guy on totse, but I've seen enough corruption with my own eyes.

I'm sorry that you over-generalize and pretend that you can "pick people out of the crowd". I support capitalism but I know it's got serious flaws and greed happens to be one of them.

Way to disregard the explanation I gave you that disproved your wild assertions that the money big business makes is in some way bad for the country.

....


You make some good points Revvy. First of all, you're right about the speculation, it DOES play some part, but by NO means is it entirely behind the price raises that we've seen. The part it plays is minute when compared to other market forces and I just get tired of people blaming Wall Street for the price of their gas...

I might disagree with your statements regarding the trillions of dollars 'sitting around' in banks and stuff being the accumulated worth of thousands or millions of man-hours...Most of this money is used to finance other investment by large banking firms or organizations like Freddie Mac and Fannie May - this is why when these organizations get in trouble (like happened last week) the government must step in and provide bailouts - because to lose this money because of a credit crunch or mortgage crisis would be disastrous to the American economy as a whole. Why do you think banks pay you interest on the money you keep there? It's because the money isn't just sitting there, the bank is using your money to make more money for themselves. Once you begin dealing with this on a huge scale (like the investment or finance firms on the NY stock exchange or the TSX) actual dollar figures become fuzzy in that it is difficult to look at capital and profit was an actual dollar figure and not a static fluid number. Something (even if you don't see it) is being done with all of the money in the United States - there is never money just laying around not being used in banks.

As for the overall quality of produced goods - in an ideal world the market would control quality through competition, which I believe to be the case now - although certainly many would disagree. If one company provides a service or product for a higher price, but you know that that service or product is of much higher quality than another, one would purchase that product (presumably, not taking into account income and other variables). It depends if the consumer is willing to trade off quality for price - it's the difference between buying a knockoff Rolex for 10 bucks on the street or a real one for 10 000 dollars from the dealer.

Well written post though, and I don't claim to have the easy answer. Despite all the things right with our economic systems, I'll admit that there are some things that are wrong. Indeed, greed might be a factor, and do I think that CEO's should be getting 200 million dollar incentive packages? I don't know. Probably not. What I do know is that unless somebody can put forward a legitimate idea on how to safely and slowly begin this change anything else would be irresponsible.

By spending money on consumer items the rich help the economy, which in turn helps the middle and lower classes. It's not a sin to be rich. It seems that what you don't understand is that rich people spend way more than poor people thus being more beneficial to the community. It's not like the family of a CEO who dies and decides to keep it 'in the family' is going to sock all that money away in a mattress and not spend it - no, their going to continue spending it on consumer goods, houses, automobiles, etc.

Just a question, how many CEO's do you know? Personally I mean? As an angst ridden teen I can only assume that you don't specifically hate CEO's, just the general idea of capitalism. I suppose you'd be happier if we all lazed around under the failed idea of global communism eh you filthy pinko.

Spending money is the act of compelling other people to do what you want. Just because you have a lot of money doesn't mean you did as much for the people you're paying as they're doing for you.

It would be better if they did stuff it away in a mattress. That's giving more back than you take, in terms of things done for society.

If everyone spent as little as possible, the world would be a much better place; we would no longer be obligated to help people acquire things they don't need.

Spending money is the act of compelling other people to do what you want. Just because you have a lot of money doesn't mean you did as much for the people you're paying as they're doing for you.

It would be better if they did stuff it away in a mattress. That's giving more back than you take, in terms of things done for society.

If everyone spent as little as possible, the world would be a much better place; we would no longer be obligated to help people acquire things they don't need.

I thought I explained the importance of consumerism above. Maybe not. spending money on goods/services is good for the economy - it adds to the total GDP of a country by about 1/3 the other 2/3 comes from government spending and business investment. This works in a very cyclical way. When people spend more of their hard earned dollars buying consumer goods, companies see more demand for those goods - so production is stepped up...this means more jobs are created and more money is going to companies and banks (through the owners of the stores that provide the goods and services to the consumer). That money is then re-invested and distributed throughout the financial sector where it becomes accessible capital for investment, mortgage loans, and etc. The amount of this money that is taxed goes to the government where it is again redistributed to social programs, libraries, roadways, hospitals (in Canada), and the police. The benefit of this type of government spending is safer, healthier communities, which then leads to more disposable income and more consumer spending.

So, getting rid of consumer culture will only serve to make people sick, scared, homeless, and poor. Allow me to reiterate - wealth is health!

I thought I explained the importance of consumerism above. Maybe not. spending money on goods/services is good for the economy - it adds to the total GDP of a country by about 1/3 the other 2/3 comes from government spending and business investment.

. This works in a very cyclical way. When people spend more of their hard earned dollars buying consumer goods, companies see more demand for those goods - so production is stepped up...this means more jobs are created and more money is going to companies and banks (through the owners of the stores that provide the goods and services to the consumer). That money is then re-invested and distributed throughout the financial sector where it becomes accessible capital for investment, mortgage loans, and etc. The amount of this money that is taxed goes to the government where it is again redistributed to social programs, libraries, roadways, hospitals (in Canada), and the police. The benefit of this type of government spending is safer, healthier communities, which then leads to more disposable income and more consumer spending.

So, getting rid of consumer culture will only serve to make people sick, scared, homeless, and poor. Allow me to reiterate - wealth is health!

Economics is all about effective distribution of resources; answering the intial economic problem: how to deal with unlimited wants on a planet with limited resources. Building sustainable systems and cycles should be the goal of economics, a lot of other stuff seems pretty arbitrary to me: especially fields such are concerned with creating precise models to work out the patterns of consumers (forget the name of the field).

Through your explanation, the best thing a country could do is drill up the entire planet's resources, and enslave every single other human being and then consume everything as fast as humanly possible - GDP would skyrocket, but would living standards - both domestically and globally?

Ideally, the market would be consumer lead, but this isn't really the case - and therefore the system is failing. Through the media and marketting techniques, people are being convinced that they need to buy things which in reality they don't need. We're constantly being told what we have is not good enough; fashions are constantly changing and we're bombarded with adverts constantly. Companies are starting to dictate what we demand, and because every company is fighting for our money, we're ultimately being picked apart on all sides.

More jobs aren't being created either, through a mass consumer culture: that's a myth. Not only due to the points I made earlier, about more effort being put into goods resulting in long production times, thus more people needing to be employed to meet demand, but also the fact that as long as you have resources and a stable society, there's always going to be jobs available. Money's just a fake resource; it only means what the government and banks say it does. If we employed twice as many doctors and teachers, these people would still be in jobs, and they'd still be able to be paid. This payment would then allow them to spend on other services: not neccaserily consumer goods. The only thing you really need is resources.

Now if you look at the UK, we're a relatively rich country, but have fuck all resources. If everything was on a level playing field, we'd be one of the poorest nations because we're one of the smallest. The only reason we can push above our weight is because we're exploiting nations somewhere along the line: through the world's complex economic systems. Through 'enslaving' as many people in the world as possible to this consumer culture, we're still able to enjoy a lot of wealth. The more and more countries which get hooked on our consumer way of life, the more and more profits go back to huge American and British companies: robbing the ordinary people around the world, whilst supporting the upper class Anglo-American elte. The British Empire hasn't really fell, it's just become more covert, and the influence which certain big companies have on our nation is scary.

So am I understanding correctly that you feel because people in other areas of the world are suffering for our comfort we should redefine the system? IMO each country has the responsibility to govern itself in the best interests of it's own citizens, not the citizens of the world. If some guy in Columbia has to work a 18 hour day so that I can have a 60 cent cup of coffee every morning before work - is that necessarily my fault or the fault of his own government for not working for their own people? The job of MY government is to make sure I can get utility (the coffee) at the lowest price possible. Which they do.

I think it's best if change is made through individual responsibility rather than government regulation.

This.

/thread

This.

/thread

There needs to be some form of government intervention in order to aid people in becoming more responsible for their actions.

There needs to be some form of government intervention in order to aid people in becoming more responsible for their actions.

Actually I think that's right and wrong. The government is the only body that could effectivly 'fix' it. Then again if the government is controlled by corporations like many people believe then it would just be a repeat of the whole 'big business is green and trendy' blah blah blah.

It's all bullshit to me. Whoever took the survival training is right. It's a good idea because shit will hit the fan sometime soon, and when it does it'll be helpful to run out in the woods and escape riots/mass people going crazy whatever.

Someday the world will magically melt-down and then I'll have my revenge on those popular kids that picked on me!
This is every loser's fantasy. Only on TOTSE are such a ludicrous number of people emotionally invested in a catastrophic breakdown of society happening in the future.

This is every loser's fantasy. Only on TOTSE are such a ludicrous number of people emotionally invested in a catastrophic breakdown of society happening in the future.

That's actually not what I was saying at all.

That's actually not what I was saying at all.

Sure it is. You want society to collapse so you can go off into the wilderness with your l33t survival training while all the 'stupid worthless kids that annoy you' (ie popular) starve to death. I can't conceive of any other reason why a forum full of high school rejects would constantly say shit like what you just said.

Sure it is. You want society to collapse so you can go off into the wilderness with your l33t survival training while all the 'stupid worthless kids that annoy you' (ie popular) starve to death. I can't conceive of any other reason why a forum full of high school rejects would constantly say shit like what you just said.

He wasn't the one who made the survival reference.

The more you know...

a forum full of high school rejects

Then why the fuck are you here?

You're obviously such a cool cat. Leave us high schoolers alone so we can plot our plans. lawl stfu & gtfo scuzzy

Before you whinge about me being a hypocrit by enjoying Totse. I'd rather be on an 1989 underground dial up Totse than the one today.

agreed, if you think about how much everyone is brainwashed its scary. Its all about marketing and brand names. Who gives a fuck in the real world if that is brand name clothes and sunglasses you where and if your Ipod is 20gb and if your phone was made by mac? I can recognize more brand name product labels then plants and animals in my environment. Thats just fucking sad. There was a world before the industry revolution, before the stock market. Im not saying we need to go back to a time when it was men out in the wild. We have technology, we CAN fix this problem we have today. In the past generations people have formed together underneath a cause, I like to hope that it will be our generation which fixes our issues which plague us today. Its not even JUST the Mass Production goods, and the huge waste it causes. Its not JUST the millions upon millions of vehicles we drive in this world. Its not JUST the chemicals we pump into the atmosphere and oceans. Its all of them. And its beginning to take effect. Were not killing the planet. Were working hard at speeding up our own demise. Because the earth has all the time in the world. We dont.

Essentially, the complaint in this thread is that we buy more stuff than we need to.

Does anyone have a valid idea on how to fix this, considering that:
1) Business wants to promote this culture.
2) Such actions are ingrained in human nature.

How do you suggest to someone that they should reduce their expenditures on stuff? Or, for that matter, even cheap disposable stuff?

It seems as if "don't buy cheap tools" is a lesson that has to be learned through experience.
(note that "tools" is used in an expansive sense)

It seems as if "don't buy cheap tools" is a lesson that has to be learned through experience.
(note that "tools" is used in an expansive sense)

Nicely put.

Around here (where money is tight) (and where we don't live in the competetive suburbs:rolleyes:) We will save up and buy a better brand and we make it last. If it breaks down we fix it. Also, we save our money instead of buying a bunch of crap. That's an important lesson I was taught as a kid when my mom wouldn't just get me every toy to be a cool kid. I thank her everyday for not making me into a little 'consumer' as they call it nowadays (people that buy things just because they want to be on top and have the 'latest and greatest' garbage.)

Just another $.02 in there.

capitalism is essentially a euphemism for selfishness...explain how I'm completely buying into the system by worrying about myself?

Plus, everyone is like me, altruism is make believe, all anyone cares about is themselves. Regardless of what you think. I'm one of the very few honest people you'll ever meet. Most people are incapable of coming to terms with the truth and you seem to fall into that category.

I'm on the path to the ubermensch, you on the other hand, are fenced in with the rest of the herd suckling from the teet of false ethics and slave morality which only captivate you due to the sweet taste, distracting you from the fat pig your becoming. Enjoy living a life of mediocrity and disappointment.

You weren't always this way, Kitty. I'm disappointed.

Alot of stuff here is utter bullshit. There is no such thing as overproduction. The rules of supply and demand still stand. If people didn't want or need cheap asian TV's, they wouldn't produce them. Mass production is the only way to keep up with the huge demand.

A 100 or more years ago there just were'nt so many people. And they usually had to work alot, some even 16 hours a day. Ive yet to read Klein's "No Logo", but I'm already lead to believe that there is a lot of counter cultural bullshit packed in there. Come on, it's so trendy to be an environmentalist, feminist, just be fucking alternative, right?

Too bad that counter culture has become pop culture. 40 years ago the hippies were unified against "Teh Bad System" and... after 40 years NOTHING has changed huh? Come on, thousands of rebels, infiltrators, jammers, protesters have risen up against the evil machine of the government and corporations, and what have they accomplished? Absolutely positively NOTHING.

Let's say, if a fat ass american brakes his plasma TV, is he going to diy it? No. Is he gonna give to some fancy handyman? No. Is he gonna give it to the store to fix it? Maybe... He'll most likely just buy a new one. The thing is, he HAS the MONEY to do that. Because I'm poor, I don't have cash for a new PC, and I've repaired it countless times all by myself, not even buying any new parts. I've stitched my own pants. But is someone with a load of cash even think of doing that sort of shit? Hell no!

Someone with cash is making the demand for more shit, because they have the money to buy it, and the 'neoburgoise' capitlists are cashing in on it, using the means of mass production. Supply and demand. If people had less money to spend, they would save a helluva lot more of it, doing at least a lot more stuff by themselves, and not just buying new things every couple of months.

Mass production is the only means of cheaply satisfying the demand for certain goods. I believe also that it is much easier to control while also giving the biggest advantages to the whole population. Hey, instead of reasoning for going out to live in the caves again, why not impose stricter ecological laws on the factories? That way progress is made, people get their PC's and the environment is safer; it's easier to control one factory and it's emissions than a hundred thousand asian sweatshops, all shelling out their own CPU's made from shit and polyethylene-shit.

I believe all we need is a better, NO-SHIT legislation system, instead of taking care of lawsuits like the McDonalds "Coffee is Hot", why not invest all that money into regulations on factories? Impose limits on toxic emissions? That way the more ecological the factories are, the more money they'll save, and a penny saved is a penny earned.

What about those brands and all that shit someone mentioned previously? It's all the counter cultural bullshit, yet again! God, does it attack from every direction at once? It truly has no remorse. People buy Nike, Puma, Converse because they do not want to be like the fucking Joneses. They want to be a rebel, they want to stand out. This is were cool and advertising come in. They are telling you what to do if you wanna let out your 'special' self out, because we all know that you're totally better than the 6 billion other humans, now all you gotta do is extract that out from your inside and put that onto your outside, what better way to do this than by buying "alternative" clothing? Goods? This makes every rebel kid become a gray little figure among a thousand other subversive and system-fighting rebels.

So in short, all this anticapitalist, anti-mass production, anti-brands is all crap and bullshit, made so that all the 'rebels' feel a bit more special, and then buy some more 'subversive' stuff, thus fueling the demend and increasing supply, production, toxic emissions...

I'd just like to point out that not every American is some fat ass rich person like you're making it out to be. Consumerist Greed isn't limited to America, either.

Thank You, I just used that as a stereotype, because the average american is still pretty wealthy compared to people from eastern europe (my place of origin) and atleast 1/2 the world, and I see that consumerism in the wealthy west is more visible than in the poorer east, where alot of people just can't afford a Big Mac since it is considered a luxury food.

Also, I was in Glasgow just a week ago, and I bumped into much the same kind of people (hordes of emos, throngs of subversive, alternative youth, punks, skinheads, all that crap) who also just happened to be so environmentalist that they bought "Organic Food"...

Thank You, I just used that as a stereotype, because the average american is still pretty wealthy compared to people from eastern europe (my place of origin) and atleast 1/2 the world, and I see that consumerism in the wealthy west is more visible than in the poorer east, where alot of people just can't afford a Big Mac since it is considered a luxury food.

Also, I was in Glasgow just a week ago, and I bumped into much the same kind of people (hordes of emos, throngs of subversive, alternative youth, punks, skinheads, all that crap) who also just happened to be so environmentalist that they bought "Organic Food"...

Chavs =/= Americans.

Chavs were the poorer people I bumped into. I stayed in West End near Byers Rd. where there was a mixture of terribly obese people, some normal scots, and lots of rich-fucks, 60 year old ladies with a tan and stuff like that. But in the city center where the shops are... well, I wouldn't call them chavs, just consumer-monkies.

Revvy, the CEO's, and "big bosses" of huge corporations are employees of the people who actually own the company, which is stock holders, many of which are middle and lower class people, some of which are rich people, and most of which are unions. Everyone of those people benefit from a company that runs properly. That being said, please outline for me your plan, oh wise one, one who sees through the lies and decpetions of those evil corporations. So production stopped universally yesterday, and now what?
P.S. I am not taunting you, I am actually interested to hear what your plan is, wise one.

How I feel about "saving the planet"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

I'm selfish. I don't care about others. As long as MY enviorment is nice I'm content.

This.

Until it starts affecting directly it's not really on my mind.

I just want to add some thoughts I have been having as well.

First, to get this out of the way,

Some things in your video pissed me off through their deceptive nature.
Here I assemble a list.

Perhaps the video is mostly sensationalist. However, when it comes to trying to influence public opinion, perhaps sensationalism is what we need. If we want to decrease Consumer demand, we need to convince consumers that they should change because what they are doing now is BAD (regardless of whether it is actually "bad").

It has been mentioned in this thread that the rule of supply and demand will inevitably lead to the kinds of consumerism that we see today. Revvy initially posted this thread with the suggestion that we decrease supply to affect demand. But would it be more effective to work the other way around? Decrease demand to decrease supply? What are the problems with going this route that might make Revvy's option (decrease supply => decrease demand) a better choice for action? Obviously, both is best, but I am curious to hear strengths and weaknesses.

On a separate note, this thread discusses mostly STUFFZ. I want to push a little bit and talk about FOOD. Because indeed, we are mass-producing food. The reason I want to talk about it is because it hits a little closer to home (literally). Perhaps this is just me, but I LIKE being able to eat fish and corn and fruit and spices. But in a lot of ways we also may over-consume and over-produce food.

Here's the tricky part in my mind: the food that I like is not necessarily growable in my climate. Thus it needs to be transported from other places. How does it get from there to here? Through (mainly) trucks and gigantic barges which are powered by oil. This brings me to another point which seems to me to be very disconcerting. As oil prices increase, eventually trans-continental trade is going to be very expensive (at least until an alternate energy source is found). One CEO I personally know has told me that shipping prices (locks from China) has greatly increased. At some point we are going to need to consider the fact that rising costs in shipping are going to put a road block in the production engine, whether we like it or not.

But then, how will I get my bananas?

You get your banana's for 47 centers per pound (or at least I do at the nearest gas station). How much money do you think the people picking the bananas are making if it only costs 47 cents for you, the consumer. In that 47 cents there is labor, shipping, refrigeration, quality control, etc. You 'get your bananas' through scamming poor workers in Guatemala. So do I though, so do we all, so whatev.

W/r to consumerism..why does everybody seem to want to stem this 'evil' consumer culture we have in North America? It isn't wrong to want to have nice quality goods and by purchasing these goods we keep the economy rolling.

What's the point of life if there isn't a bunch of shit to buy man?

Also, I must have missed your proposed alternative to mass-production. Shall we go back to the pre-Industrial Revolution days? I know it blows that greedy corporations are destroying our planet, but unfortunately, until you unproductive naysayers start helping us determine the solution, we'll be stuck in this sinkhole.

I'm not gonna try to change the topic of this thread, but all I'm saying is our life as 21st century homo sapiens is largely validated by what we own and what we can afford to buy. Anyone who states that philosophizing about the true meaning of life is not an important part of the Human Revolution has their head waaay too far up their own ass.

Distinction. That's why homes in downtown cost more. Your clothing makes a statement, what you eat makes a statement. Nigger-coolaid. Mass production only offers a viable option for managing food, without it millions would go hungry, I'm not talking only about not being able to drink imported coffee, but basic food.

The system works as far as I'm concerned. People in asia are being exploited because that is the only thing they have to offer. You're value as a human is determined by what you know and how tough you are. They don't know shit so they have to work in shit. Too bad they were primitive in the first place.

People in asia are being exploited because that is the only thing they have to offer. You're value as a human is determined by what you know and how tough you are. They don't know shit so they have to work in shit. Too bad they were primitive in the first place.

Sadly when those same people start buying tons of consumer products due to their rapidly growing economies (China, India) the prices are going to skyrocket. I suggest in 75 years we might be the ones riding around on shitty bikes while they're driving around in SUV's..Other things will change before then though, get ready to start spending wayyy more on the basic comforts we're all so used to - those 'primitive' Asians are primed to fuck us all over big time.

Sadly when those same people start buying tons of consumer products due to their rapidly growing economies (China, India) the prices are going to skyrocket. I suggest in 75 years we might be the ones riding around on shitty bikes while they're driving around in SUV's..Other things will change before then though, get ready to start spending wayyy more on the basic comforts we're all so used to - those 'primitive' Asians are primed to fuck us all over big time.

They will never be riding around in SUVs. The infrastructure isn't there for it. They have a more crowded (though in some places, I think it would be healthier, with all the walking and cycling you have to do to get around) infrastructure that wouldn't allow for oversized vehicles to be pounding away at the oil reserves.

They will never be riding around in SUVs. The infrastructure isn't there for it. They have a more crowded (though in some places, I think it would be healthier, with all the walking and cycling you have to do to get around) infrastructure that wouldn't allow for oversized vehicles to be pounding away at the oil reserves.

Your right, but it doesn't change the fact that more and more people will be getting cars - which is something they see as a 'Western' luxury that they are just beginning to be able to afford. And actually they do have the infrastructure - maybe not in certain areas of the larger cities, but overall China is pretty modernized. Although I guess to be fair Londoner's have always driven smaller cars because of fuel prices/city infrastructure.

Your right, but it doesn't change the fact that more and more people will be getting cars - which is something they see as a 'Western' luxury that they are just beginning to be able to afford. And actually they do have the infrastructure - maybe not in certain areas of the larger cities, but overall China is pretty modernized. Although I guess to be fair Londoner's have always driven smaller cars because of fuel prices/city infrastructure.

I dunno... I'd still probably say scooters/motorcycles flood the streets mostly. It just seems to be more their style. They have a good way about minimizing space consumption, but I won't say cars aren't going to happen... just not giant SUVs.

I dunno... I'd still probably say scooters/motorcycles flood the streets mostly. It just seems to be more their style. They have a good way about minimizing space consumption, but I won't say cars aren't going to happen... just not giant SUVs.

who are you to say anything? Who are any of us to say anthing?

I seriously doubt that we're able to make predictions of the future from things that are happening today. Sure I like to discuss it too but I really think that it's rediculous to make assuptions like that.

Just saying.

who are you to say anything? Who are any of us to say anthing?

I seriously doubt that we're able to make predictions of the future from things that are happening today. Sure I like to discuss it too but I really think that it's rediculous to make assuptions like that.

Just saying.

I've never made assuptions about anything... Except maybe thinking you were decent at spelling. That was ridiculous...

But I mean, seriously... The Far East has understood that personal space doesn't mean "I want my own california king bed and I want no one withing 300 feet of my house". The infrastructure, the culture, their entire way of life does not gel w/ the Western culture's independence shoop-da-woop and gtfo attitude. They maximize product usage and reduce the amount of open space in pretty much everything they do.

I've never made assuptions about anything... Except maybe thinking you were decent at spelling. That was ridiculous...

But I mean, seriously... The Far East has understood that personal space doesn't mean "I want my own california king bed and I want no one withing 300 feet of my house". The infrastructure, the culture, their entire way of life does not gel w/ the Western culture's independence shoop-da-woop and gtfo attitude. They maximize product usage and reduce the amount of open space in pretty much everything they do.

Haha..I don't know man - all the business guy's that I've met from China fucking LOVE Western consumerism..I'm talking blackberrys w/ bluetooth headsets designer suits huge comfort car to take them around here when there here on business. Lots of these guys drive Mercedes and shit over there just for the image. When China starts booming even more there are going to be a lot more of these types of people around... And to the guy who said you can't predict anything in the future from what happens today - wtf? It's called econ, people make livings off predicting what's going to happen in th future from what happens today...

I've never made assuptions about anything... Except maybe thinking you were decent at spelling. That was ridiculous...

But I mean, seriously... The Far East has understood that personal space doesn't mean "I want my own california king bed and I want no one withing 300 feet of my house". The infrastructure, the culture, their entire way of life does not gel w/ the Western culture's independence shoop-da-woop and gtfo attitude. They maximize product usage and reduce the amount of open space in pretty much everything they do.

I wasn't meaning to insult your intelligence. I was simply trying to inspire a new side of the conversation to come out.

Haha..I don't know man - all the business guy's that I've met from China fucking LOVE Western consumerism..I'm talking blackberrys w/ bluetooth headsets designer suits huge comfort car to take them around here when there here on business. Lots of these guys drive Mercedes and shit over there just for the image. When China starts booming even more there are going to be a lot more of these types of people around... And to the guy who said you can't predict anything in the future from what happens today - wtf? It's called econ, people make livings off predicting what's going to happen in th future from what happens today...

Kinda off-topic, but I remember you were the person I was talking to about this... Barrel prices for oil dropped tremendously in 3 weeks. Does this mean the demand dropped 30% that quickly or that speculators really did have a hand in boosting the price?;)

Kinda off-topic, but I remember you were the person I was talking to about this... Barrel prices for oil dropped tremendously in 3 weeks. Does this mean the demand dropped 30% that quickly or that speculators really did have a hand in boosting the price?;)

Oil prices started to drop when consumers began to realize that the needed to cut back on their use. "Oil initially turned lower after the Commerce Department reported that consumer spending fell in June as shoppers dealt with higher prices for gasoline, food and other items. That bolstered analysts' arguments that a U.S. economic slowdown is forcing Americans to scale back on energy use." - Wall St. Journal, August 10th,2008

When consumers felt the burn of $150 per barrel oil those in lower income brackets became unable to sustain the higher price. People started riding bicycles, taking the bus, etc. Thus demand decreased. I still believe that the price of oil reflects the fundamental fluctuation of the free market. Sadly if we all bought put options redeemable within a month back when oil was $150 p/b we'd all be making a killing right now - I only wish I had the access to capital that would allow me to make some serious cash : (

Oil prices started to drop when consumers began to realize that the needed to cut back on their use. "Oil initially turned lower after the Commerce Department reported that consumer spending fell in June as shoppers dealt with higher prices for gasoline, food and other items. That bolstered analysts' arguments that a U.S. economic slowdown is forcing Americans to scale back on energy use." - Wall St. Journal, August 10th,2008

When consumers felt the burn of $150 per barrel oil those in lower income brackets became unable to sustain the higher price. People started riding bicycles, taking the bus, etc. Thus demand decreased. I still believe that the price of oil reflects the fundamental fluctuation of the free market. Sadly if we all bought put options redeemable within a month back when oil was $150 p/b we'd all be making a killing right now - I only wish I had the access to capital that would allow me to make some serious cash : (

I dont think the decline of demand fell that much that quickly though... that's not an easy task to do in a quick span of time.

I dont think the decline of demand fell that much that quickly though... that's not an easy task to do in a quick span of time.

It's actually been falling since June (like my previous post says) we just didn't get the info until recently.

It's actually been falling since June (like my previous post says) we just didn't get the info until recently.

I think your post said July, but I understand what you meant.

I think your post said July, but I understand what you meant.

dudette u makes me laugh

when u called DerDrache nigger multiple times in bitch and moan

dudette u makes me laugh

when u called DerDrache nigger multiple times in bitch and moan

:-D

I'm not really sure if I like you... but I do like making people laugh. So thanks.

As we keep adding mysterious shit to our food, water and goods that inevitably end up in our body - we're getting fatter, sicker, more infertile. Mass production gives us plenty of toxic compounds, many based on petrochemicals. Over-fertilized, industrial agriculture has threatened our very soil - the minerals in it are a pittance compared to the soil 100 years ago. We get these epidemics of disease that were barely known about 100 years ago. Who the fuck got diabetes, heart disease, cardiovascular disease, fucking cancer that long ago? 1/100 people even?

Our very fitness as a species is at an all time low, in an unsustainable system. Not a high point in humanity if you ask me.

As we keep adding mysterious shit to our food, water and goods that inevitably end up in our body - we're getting fatter, sicker, more infertile. Mass production gives us plenty of toxic compounds, many based on petrochemicals. Over-fertilized, industrial agriculture has threatened our very soil - the minerals in it are a pittance compared to the soil 100 years ago. We get these epidemics of disease that were barely known about 100 years ago. Who the fuck got diabetes, heart disease, cardiovascular disease, fucking cancer that long ago? 1/100 people even?

Our very fitness as a species is at an all time low, in an unsustainable system. Not a high point in humanity if you ask me.

MOST of that goes straight to Americans. I can't say that Most Europeans I've ever met had to deal w/ most of that stuff.

It's our infrastructure that ruins America. We worry about how much land we own to distances ourselves from everyone and we try to fit 8 hours of work into one day, PLUS SCHOOL, and give ourself 20-30 minutes to not only eat a meal, but drive halfway across town to do it and get back to work in time.

Most Europeans I've ever met are in great shape and eat GOOD food that is healthy and stimulating.