(This isn't actually about The Dark Knight)

So, since I'd guess most of us saw Batman yesterday/today, I'm curious what you all thought of the various philosophical things it suggested. As I saw it, you h ave this chaotic world, and the 3 main characters approach it in different ways. Batman follows his rules and is apparently incorruptable; Harvey Dent is corruptible and essentially decides to leave good and bad acts up to chance; and The Joker just doesn't play by any rules and embraces the chaos.

Do you think there's anything to any of Nolan's ideas? (ie. Is our world really so chaotic? Is it better to have rules or not have any at all? Do the views of these characters have a more abstract significance?)

(This isn't actually about The Dark Knight)

So, since I'd guess most of us saw Batman yesterday/today, I'm curious what you all thought of the various philosophical things it suggested. As I saw it, you h ave this chaotic world, and the 3 main characters approach it in different ways. Batman follows his rules and is apparently incorruptable; Harvey Dent is corruptible and essentially decides to leave good and bad acts up to chance; and The Joker just doesn't play by any rules and embraces the chaos.

For a Hollywood movie, it had an admirable dose of philosophy, but let's be real here --- when your primary motive is to make $$$ and keep the audience on the edge of their seats you ain't gonna have alot of groundbreaking insight.


Do you think there's anything to any of Nolan's ideas? (ie. Is our world really so chaotic?

Maybe in a world where a single maniac can instantly rig up ocean-liners, hospitals and police headquarters with explosives and gain a personal army of assault-rifle toting thugs by stabbing somebody with a pencil. Fortunately we don't live in that world.

Is it better to have rules or not have any at all?)
Frankly it makes more sense to ask whether or not any portion of the world without rules stands a chance of keeping itself that way.

I think it was an interesting study of "human nature," if there is such a thing. But I think the whole boat situation was nonsense, someone would have pulled that trigger in real life.

I think it was an interesting study of "human nature," if there is such a thing. But I think the whole boat situation was nonsense, someone would have pulled that trigger in real life.

Exactly!
In my opinion, the Joker is the voice of reason in the movie.
Everything in reality is chaotic at some level, so trying to bring order to it is futile.
The same applies to humans, who are inherently repulsive and pathetic due to their instinct to survive, and the Joker realises this.
In real life his experiment would have succeeded.

Exactly!
In my opinion, the Joker is the voice of reason in the movie.
Everything in reality is chaotic at some level, so trying to bring order to it is futile.
The same applies to humans, who are inherently repulsive and pathetic due to their instinct to survive, and the Joker realises this.
In real life his experiment would have succeeded.

While I agree that someone (between the boat full of selfish criminals, or just the normal citizens) would have pulled the trigger, there's no need for you to throw your idiotic, "humanity is pathetic" crap into the mix. You can't objectively say that an instinct to survive is pathetic or repulsive. Furthermore, "pathetic" and "repulsive" are vague adjectives that ultimately just reflect your negative opinion, as oppose to actually describing a human quality.

Everyone is overlooking the whole purpose of the Joker. His whole thing was that he never wanted to win, however, he never wanted to lose(as he states at the end while hanging). He is looking for a life of constant struggle with Batman because in doing so it brings a purpose to in otherwise a purposeless life.

I think it's just supposed to be basic existentialism, the Joker sees no objective reason in the world and looks to bring meaning to his existence. That's why he says he doesn't want to kill Batman because Batman gives him a reason to live. He enjoys chaos and destruction due to his brutal past which has created hatred for the world and Batman gives him almost a goal to keep striving for. One he hopes he never achieves because otherwise he would be thrown back into the world of nihilism he disdains.

maybe in a world where a single maniac can instantly rig up ocean-liners, hospitals and police headquarters with explosives and gain a personal army of assault-rifle toting thugs by stabbing somebody with a pencil. Fortunately we don't live in that world.

thank you

everyone bitching about that boat scene...i thought it was fine. but my first thought when i saw it happening was the joker had lied and made it so the detonator would either cause whoever pushed it's own boat to blow up, or both boats to blow up. wouldn't that have been better? the group of normal citizens deciding to take out the criminals, turning the key on the detonator, and then their own boat blows up and the criminals are spared, thus rewarding the criminals who weren't willing to blow the other people up. that's just what i thought would happen.

everyone bitching about that boat scene...i thought it was fine. but my first thought when i saw it happening was the joker had lied and made it so the detonator would either cause whoever pushed it's own boat to blow up, or both boats to blow up. wouldn't that have been better? the group of normal citizens deciding to take out the criminals, turning the key on the detonator, and then their own boat blows up and the criminals are spared, thus rewarding the criminals who weren't willing to blow the other people up. that's just what i thought would happen.

Uh...that's not what this thread is about, you DICK.

Uh...that's not what this thread is about, you DICK.

at least two people mentioned the boat scene, stfu. there's like a billion batman threads, they're all the same now.

at least two people mentioned the boat scene, stfu. there's like a billion batman threads, they're all the same now.

This is Humanities, asswipe. Here we use capitalization and try to stay on topic. :mad:

Take your boats, and see what your father has to say about it.

I liked the part in the Batman/Joker fight scene where the Joker points out that they (the two being metaphorical personifications of order and chaos) need each other to exist, and that this interplay of the two goes on forever.

you know when the joker says that if someone doesn't kill that guy who is going to reveal batmans identity, then he would blow up a hospital?
would you have done it, because for me it seemed like the best course of action, a huge save of resources to rebuild the hospital and probably saved more than one life.

you know when the joker says that if someone doesn't kill that guy who is going to reveal batmans identity, then he would blow up a hospital?
would you have done it, because for me it seemed like the best course of action, a huge save of resources to rebuild the hospital and probably saved more than one life.

They made a point about Batman's character in that he tried to preserve order by saving the guy, and not being held hostage to the Joker's threat. It said something about the contrast between the character of the public, who all wanted to kill that guy, and Batman, in how Batman would never let an innocent die if he could save him, and wouldn't willingly kill one.

but my first thought when i saw it happening was the joker had lied and made it so the detonator would either cause whoever pushed it's own boat to blow up, or both boats to blow up. wouldn't that have been better?

This is exactly what I was thinking during the film.

Maybe in a world where a single maniac can instantly rig up ocean-liners, hospitals and police headquarters with explosives and gain a personal army of assault-rifle toting thugs by stabbing somebody with a pencil. Fortunately we don't live in that world.


To be fair, they never explained how he did it. Makes it more plausible since its hard to argue that it's a technically impossible feat that couldn't be pulled off with adequate planning and resources.

Also, I find it really unlikely that the joker was lying about what the detonators would do. His motive was to show the inherent selfishness of human nature and, like he did with the lawyer guy, bring them over to his side. He was trying to turn people into murderers; the death involved was only a side effect.

To be fair, they never explained how he did it. Makes it more plausible since its hard to argue that it's a technically impossible feat that couldn't be pulled off with adequate planning and resources..

Yeah. I don't know why so many people think it's so crazy. He obviously had won over various goons, so why are idiots like ThePrince so shocked that he and his goons managed to rig up explosives?

I thought the quantity of barrels that you saw was a bit over-the-top, but I don't think the idea that they rigged buildings and boats was unbelievable.

The speed with which the jokers organization grew in size and sophistication was ridiculous, but you can't hold that against the movie because that's sort of always been standard joker, and really dc villain fare.

It seems like he's always had random squads of goons ready to do his way over-complicated bidding.

The speed with which the jokers organization grew in size and sophistication was ridiculous, but you can't hold that against the movie because that's sort of always been standard joker, and really dc villain fare.

It seems like he's always had random squads of goons ready to do his way over-complicated bidding.

If you recall, he was already in play at the end of Batman Begins. The timeline of the movie is pretty vague (I can't recall any reference to time, honestly), so...I can buy it.

Maybe in a world where a single maniac can instantly rig up ocean-liners, hospitals and police headquarters with explosives and gain a personal army of assault-rifle toting thugs by stabbing somebody with a pencil. Fortunately we don't live in that world.


Fight Club anyone?

Joker's quickly gained influence is hardly the thing which would break suspension of disbelief when there's so much else in the film. The sonar on cell phones? Batmobile? Skyhook? Bruce Wayne not being caught as Batman? Maggie instead of Katie?

If that spoils the film for you, then fuck, what are you going to be able to watch without being disconnected?

It's hardly beyond belief that a crazy but super-confident guy manages to get a large gang following him, and with Gotham the way it is, to get explosives etc.

In reality, this guy would have been sent to Guantanamo as soon as he came on the cops' radar. That's why they don't involve the FBI/CIA. It avoids reminding you of reality.

Joker's quickly gained influence is hardly the thing which would break suspension of disbelief when there's so much else in the film. The sonar on cell phones? Batmobile? Skyhook? Bruce Wayne not being caught as Batman? Maggie instead of Katie?
.

The sonar on the cell phones and the skyhook were definitely unbelievable, but the batmobile and Batman's secret identity certainly are plausible. They spent much of the first movie establishing that shit. The batmobile is a high-tech military vehicle, and Bruce Wayne is viewed as a rich, drunk douchebag by the entire city (he's like Gotham's equivalent of Paris Hilton).

It's obvious what the OP really wants to know: "How do I justify being evil like the Joker?"

The sonar on the cell phones and the skyhook were definitely unbelievable, but the batmobile and Batman's secret identity certainly are plausible. They spent much of the first movie establishing that shit. The batmobile is a high-tech military vehicle, and Bruce Wayne is viewed as a rich, drunk douchebag by the entire city (he's like Gotham's equivalent of Paris Hilton).

True, I would say that they're on a similar level to Joker's influence.

i found that the film tried to say that all humans (apart from Batman and the joker, who represent the two extremes of order and chaos) all have some good and bad in them. Harvey Dent, a seemingly flawless shining light of gotham gets possessed by grief, while the prisoners on the ship perform an act of selflessness, although many of them are considered the worst of society.