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ArmsMerchant
2008-07-28, 18:55
In case you are not familiar with him, J. Krishnamurti was an Indian philosopher who spent fifty years travelling around, doning what many of us try to do here--conveying through wiords--which are content--that which is beyond words, beyond content.

Toward the end of hsi career, he announced that he would reveal his secret. veryine in the audience sort of perked some--some had been following his for years, and now the old guy was about to drop a bomb.

"This is my secret--I don't mind what happens." WTF? Some were perplexed, others outraged--especially since he pulled the old Zen master thing and don't elaborate. BUt he managed to pack a lot of wisdom into those few words.

Being accepting and nonjudgemental are essential to spiritual growth, as are forgiveness and living in the present. None of this is possible if you "mind what happens."

(For bio, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti )

(AF, I dithered for days over whether to put this here or in SotD--if the spirit so moves you, go ahead and move this.)

AngryFemme
2008-07-29, 00:09
A parable is a parable is a parable - it could fit here as well as SotD, so far be it from me to jack your discussion.

Spiritual theosophy always has a place here.

Big Steamers
2008-07-29, 03:15
As my coaches use to say: Mind over matter; if you don't mind it, it won't matter.

Hexadecimal
2008-07-29, 17:48
Krishnamurtis sounds like a pretty chill dude.
I've been getting closer and closer lately to a consistent attitude of placing no conditions on life. I still mind being rejected by women though. That actually bothers the piss out of me. To be completely honest, it damn near drives me into a rage. I'll even fume over it for a few days from time to time. There's probably a few other things that really bother me still, but I'm still hunting for the root cause of this issue so I can get past it.

I think I might still have an incredibly rooted fear of dying old and lonely.

ArmsMerchant
2008-07-29, 18:24
Krishnamurtis sounds like a pretty chill dude.
I've been getting closer and closer lately to a consistent attitude of placing no conditions on life. I still mind being rejected by women though. That actually bothers the piss out of me. To be completely honest, it damn near drives me into a rage. I'll even fume over it for a few days from time to time. There's probably a few other things that really bother me still, but I'm still hunting for the root cause of this issue so I can get past it.

I think I might still have an incredibly rooted fear of dying old and lonely.

Not that you asked for advice, but. . . for one thing, how and when you die is up to you. And there is a world of difference between being alone and lonely. I am oftgen alone, never lonely.

The rejection thing--it isn't the real "you", your essential self that minds. It is just your ego having fun at "your"expense.

AngryFemme
2008-07-30, 00:07
how and when you die is up to you.

How do you figure?

The examples I'm thinking of are:

1) The mother of 4 tragically (and suddenly) killed by a drunk driver

2) The toddler who chokes on his 'nilla wafer and suffocates to death

Hexadecimal
2008-07-30, 17:59
How do you figure?

The examples I'm thinking of are:

1) The mother of 4 tragically (and suddenly) killed by a drunk driver

2) The toddler who chokes on his 'nilla wafer and suffocates to death

In case two: He knew the risk...those 'nilla wafers are the #1 cause of toddler deaths. As a toddler, never eat 'nilla wafers without first consulting a physician. o.O

Really though, AM, I'm confused on that one too. I've come lately to understand a much greater deal about just how free I really am...but I've always been rather certain that the time of my death is in God's hands. Now, I've asked It to allow my life on this Earth to number one hundred four years, and I do believe It will allow me to make it to that old, nearly decrepit age. I tend to believe that my freedom comes from asking God for it...not the choice alone on my part.

ArmsMerchant
2008-07-30, 18:09
Really though, AM, I'm confused on that one too. I've come lately to understand a much greater deal about just how free I really am...but I've always been rather certain that the time of my death is in God's hands.

Correct--verily is it written--"I am God. Thou art God. All that groks is God."

If you prefer older quotes, remember that Jesus not only said "the kingdom of God is within you," but also that "all these things I have done, ye shall do also--all these and more."

Rizzo in a box
2008-07-30, 20:05
And as the counter-point to J Krishnamurti's feel good talks, here's UG Krishnamurti, the spiritual terrorist:

http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/

Some quotes:

All these godman, gurus and flunkies are offering us a new oasis. You will find out that it is no different from other mirages.

We are not created for any grander purpose than the ants that are there or the flies that are hovering around us or the mosquitoes that are sucking our blood.

We are using the neurons, our memory, constantly to maintain our identity. Whether you are awake or asleep or dreaming, this process is carried on. But it is wearing you out. That is why I say that the tragedy that is facing mankind is not Aids or cancer but Alzheimer's disease.

It is fear that makes you believe that you are living and that you will be dead.What we do not want is the fear to come to an end. That is why we have invented all these new minds, new sciences,new talks, therapies, choiceless awareness and various other gimmicks.

The plain fact is that if you don't have a problem, you create one. If you don't have a problem you don't feel that you are living.

That messy thing called 'mind' has created many destructive things. By far the most destructive of them all is God.

The only way for any one who is interested in finding out what this is all about is to watch how this separation is occurring, how you are separating yourself from the things that are happening around you and inside you.

To be yourself requires extraordinary intelligence. You are blessed with that intelligence; nobody need give it to you; nobody can take it away from you. He who lets that express itself in its own way is a 'Natural Man'.

All experiences, spiritual or otherwise, are the basic cause of our suffering.

The body is not interested in anything you are interested in. And that is the battle that is going on all the time.

An artist is a craftsman like any other craftsmen. He uses that tool to express himself. All art is a pleasure movement.

ArmsMerchant
2008-07-31, 19:11
^My goodness, what a spectacular potpourri of angst, weltzschmertz, bleakness, pessimism, and all-around general negativity--not to mention bad vibes up the wazoo.

I wish I had a few hours to respond to this in detail but I'll confine myself to one of the more cryptic remarks:

"That messy thing called 'mind' has created many destructive things. By far the most destructive of them all is God."

Okay, the mind can be messy. Anyone who has tried to meditate can attest to that. It is also seemingly in cahoots with the ego to keep us from becoming enlightened. This does not mean that enlioghtenment is not possible, only that the pursuit requires diligence, effort, and intention.

If by "God," one means "the worst excesses of organized religon," I might agree.

But as it stands, the statement would make far more sense if the word "destructive" would be replaced by the word "wonderful," and the word "God" replaced by the word "universe."

Rizzo in a box
2008-07-31, 19:17
^My goodness, what a spectacular potpourri of angst, weltzschmertz, bleakness, pessimism, and all-around general negativity--not to mention bad vibes up the wazoo.

You only get out of it what you put into it.


I wish I had a few hours to respond to this in detail but I'll confine myself to one of the more cryptic remarks:

It's going to burrow into you...

See, yr still stuck in the duality dichotomy. I don't think you've ever really experienced the emptiness of the universe.

As it's said, "There are no teachings, no teachers, and no one taught."

AngryFemme
2008-07-31, 23:32
1) The mother of 4 tragically (and suddenly) killed by a drunk driver

2) The toddler who chokes on his 'nilla wafer and suffocates to death

Are these exceptions to the rule, or what?

Re: We all choose the when and how we die.

ArmsMerchant
2008-08-05, 18:38
Are these exceptions to the rule, or what?

Re: We all choose the when and how we die.

I would say that free will is absolute, but I am a tad uncomfortable when folks fabricate extreme hypothetical examples.

I think we have all heard of people in real life who endured situations that by all reason should have been fatal, especially women during childbirth, or who "died" on the operating table and were brought back. This happened to my wife, twice.

Obbe
2008-08-05, 18:53
I would say that free will is absolute

why??

EpicurusGeorge
2008-08-06, 00:43
I would say that free will is absolute

Maybe for the people who are completley self aware and have complete self control, but I don't know anyone like that so I think you're going to have to further explain what you meant by that.

AngryFemme
2008-08-06, 11:23
I would say that free will is absolute, but I am a tad uncomfortable when folks fabricate extreme hypothetical examples.

But my examples weren't extremely hypothetical, nor were they fabricated. Take a quick look-see at drunk driving statistics (http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html).


Asphyxia (choking, strangulation, suffocation) is the third most common cause of accident death in UK children after road traffic accidents and house fires. In 2005
in the UK, 16 children aged under 15 years died as the result of chokings, 12 of them under five (14 in England and Wales and 2 in Scotland) Source (http://www.capt.org.uk/pdfs/factsheet%20choking.pdf)


I think we have all heard of people in real life who endured situations that by all reason should have been fatal, especially women during childbirth, or who "died" on the operating table and were brought back. This happened to my wife, twice.

Hooray for the medical sciences! I bet if you researched how many people survived near-fatal childbirth complications or were revived on the operating table (i.e.: cheating death) 100 years ago and compared it to modern times, you'd conclude that our "will to live" has suddenly, dramatically gone up.

Most anyone, given the choice between life and death- would choose to live. It's just axiomatic that some things are completely beyond our control, and we are all victims of circumstance at some point or another.

It seems to me like believing that your free will is absolute may make one over-confident about survival to the point of ignoring certain external dangers that we have absolutely no control over. What would be worse is to define instances that we've recognized we have no control over as "destiny".

ArmsMerchant
2008-08-07, 18:49
It seems to me like believing that your free will is absolute may make one over-confident about survival to the point of ignoring certain external dangers that we have absolutely no control over. What would be worse is to define instances that we've recognized we have no control over as "destiny".

We create our own reality. One way this works is through the law of sttraction--we attract what we think about--whether we DESIRE it or not. Thus, we attact what we fear. (And push away what we want.) That's one thing.

Another is that we all make choices. People who drive drunk are more apt to kill/be killed than those who do not. People who choose to drive when there are lots of drunk drivers on the road also increase their own risk.

At a more esoteric level, everything is connected. Everything that happens, happens because everything else has sort of conspired to make it so. There are wars because so many people think they are necessary, or at least inevitable. When enough people change their mindset, wars will cease. Ditto with all the other social ills in the world. In short, the world is as it is because we--as a species--choose that it be so.

None of this means, however, that one should be rash or incautious. Fear is our greatest enemy, but caution is our friend.