This might require further editing, but I have attempted to explain my position as best I can for your reading pleasure:

I believe in God/the infinite/all because I believe in my own existence, and I believe they are one.

1 - I appear to experience the infinite. Time and space are infinite. Reality is infinite. I can make markers along the flow of time or the expanse of space and call them beginnings and endings and separate existences, but have I really experienced a beginning or an ending? Or have I only declared beginnings and endings?

Did my 'life' ever begin, or is it an extension of my parents life, and their ancestors life? Did 'life' ever spring from 'non-life' or is life just an extension of what exists, what is, of reality? Is the difference between 'life' and 'non-life' just a marker in our heads?

If there are no beginnings or endings, it could be said reality (the infinite) simply is.

2 - The majority of reality appears to be inconceivable. On closer inspection, it appears that all of reality is inconceivable, even if that is commonly not excepted. The reason for existence is unknown. Nothing makes sense.

3 - I exist in total uncertainty. Or rather, I may exist in total uncertainty. I may not be able to be certain of anything. I cannot be certain what I experience is reality. It is a possible arrangement of an infinitude of positions, one out of an infinitude itself. I cannot be certain 'I' exist as the existence experienced. The 'I' experienced is one possible position, also out of an infinitude.

My experiences may be unreal, and I cannot be certain my own existence is real, although logically without the existence of a consciousness, there would be nothing experienced at all. A rock does not know it exists. It would just exists. A man may be unable to be certain that he exists. He would just exist.

I appear to exist and experience, but am uncertain.

4 - Logically I should think of my possible existence as a singular, as something complete, a 'full' being filling one position (Me) out of an infinitude of possible positions. This is because there appears to be nothing "in between" existence and nonexistence. You either completely exist or you do not, logically. If I think of it this way, then I can imagine how this "existence" would also be required to fill any of the other infinitely possible positions which may exist (Reality).


5 - What is perfectly complete? The infinitude of possible positions, if it were to exist. Everything, or all in other words. Any existence appears to be equivalent to that. In the declarations "I exist" or "This exists" what does the 'I' or 'This' refer to? What is this perfect, complete thing? The infinite.


The 'being', the "I" which would exist logically based on my apparent observation of my existence is only equivalent to the infinite, to all, to God. Do I exist within reality or does reality exist within me?

Is there any difference between the full picture or a small detail when the picture is that of the infinite?

I believe in God/the infinite/all because I believe in my own existence, and I believe they are one.

I believe in God/the infinite/all because I believe in my own existence, and I believe they are one.[/I]

Isn't that contradictory?..everything about you is finite. How then can you associate yourself with God?...You're bounded and limited in so many ways to so many things it's not even funny. Unless your God is limited and bounded like you, but then he wouldn't be infinite now would he?

It also doesn't seem like you follow a particular religion right?..Then where did you get the idea that God is infinite?..Surely some aspects of what you declare God to be has been partly influenced by certain religions.

Now here is the best part. You believe in God, so what exactly does that mean?...A God without a will really doesn't merit no belief within. Unless what you mean to say is .."I believe that God exists" ...Or maybe your God does have a will. Which is what exactly?

If you re-read what you have wrote and look at it from a religious prospective, you'll find that it comes across extremely atheistic.

Also a lot of it doesn't make sense, because you say why you believe in God but your reasons are not really reasons at all, but rather questions.

.......

I can tell you what you dont use to justify your belief in a God.

Any evidence whatsoever.

So your long-winded "why I believe in my particular version of an imaginary friend for grown ups" is rather pointless, since another person can come along and dream up reasons for why they believe in a particular version of an imaginary friend for grown ups.

Your post has about as much practical real world use as a post on who would win in a fight between superman and the hulk.

I can tell you what you dont use to justify your belief in a God.

Any evidence whatsoever.

.

"Evidence"? What can be more compelling than personal experience?

You sound like a blind person arguing against the existence of rainbows, never having seen one.

"Evidence"? What can be more compelling than personal experience?

You sound like a blind person arguing against the existence of rainbows, never having seen one.

Your own personal encounters with some god-like entity might be convincing for you -- if, indeed, you have actually had any -- but if you desire to actually prove the existence of God, you are going to have to come up with something better than telling people about them, because they are quite unverifiable for the people, so for all they know, you could be telling lies.

"Evidence"? What can be more compelling than personal experience?

You sound like a blind person arguing against the existence of rainbows, never having seen one.

so lets say a schizophrenic say he saw a talking rabbit, would you believe him?

he may believe there are talking rabbits but to the rest of rational society??

The majority of reality appears to be inconceivable. On closer inspection, it appears that all of reality is inconceivable, even if that is commonly not excepted. The reason for existence is unknown. Nothing makes sense.

this is because you are lazy and instead of thinking critically and determining other possibilities that make a LOT more sense then a higher entity. like things we can test and then repeat the experiment, get the same results and use this to predict solutions.

Why I believe in God.

because I want to

Fixed.

^^^

Isn't that why everyone believes?

Why I believe in a creator: it's logical. Almost too logical. The hard part is surrendering to her.

I wonder what kind of responses the OP would get if he posted on the Dawkins site and if he would bother to respond to those responses. Hmmm. (http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53678)

Why I believe in a creator: it's logical. Almost too logical. The hard part is surrendering to her.

Belief in a creator is not as logical as admitting you dont know where life began, you dont know how the universe began, you dont know what happens when we die.

How is believe in a creator more logical than admitting you dont KNOW the answer to something?

Belief in a creator is not as logical as admitting you dont know where life began, you dont know how the universe began, you dont know what happens when we die.

How is believe in a creator more logical than admitting you dont KNOW the answer to something?

I don't know where/how/why life began. Same for the universe. I don't know what happens when one dies either.

But I know there's a creator.

lulz

I don't know where/how/why life began. Same for the universe. I don't know what happens when one dies either.

But I know there's a creator.

lulz

There is that logic you mentioned before?

You do not know there is a creator. You want to believe it and do.

lmao

There is that logic you mentioned before?

You do not know there is a creator. You want to believe it and do.

lmao

You do not know there is not a creator.

A being called God, doesn't exist. Completely unnecessary for one thing. Everything that exists is just energy. Energy is collective. It can simulate everything and does depending on how it interacts with itself, but it's all just one material. Just like our paths are limited by math, so would a being called god. An all powerful being can't exist within the system or it would cease to function. If you want to give energy a name and call it god, go right ahead. Claiming you know there is a god cause you want there to be one, doesn't make it true, and there is absolutely no evidence for anyone to ever start believing in such a thing. See, idiots like you can't get around the idea that nothing has been created. There is no beginning to anything, it's just simulated by energy. It's continuous. Time is something we created. There wasn't ever a time before us, or the earth, or the universe, because time doesn't exist. Your just pointing out a sequence in progression of an arrangement of energy. All those layers are stacked in the same space, and you're just seeing different possible arrangements. However, I think God and religion are a valuable tool for instituting control and keeping order in a civilized society. Not everyone is going to get the truth, and anarchy would ensue without these stupid beliefs. It is sad that people are so stupid, but it's better to have stupid religious people than stupid atheists. People who aren't smart enough to see the logical fallacy of religion, also lack the logic required to behave civily without these ridiculous beliefs. At least if these people follow a religion, we can just change the religion and therefore change the people to how we see fit.

You do not know there is not a creator.

Which is why "I don't know" is the perfectly acceptable answer I use.

There is no evidence for a creator, however, and like most things without evidence (bigfoot, living elvis, nessie, boogey man, elves, goblins, and other myths), I tend not to believe they exist until proven with evidence.

Same as you probably do with most things. Except this God thing. Ever ask yourself why?

Evidence is the creation.

Just like my wrist watch didn't pop out of no where with (close to) perfect working mechanisms.

Evidence is the creation.

Just like my wrist watch didn't pop out of no where with (close to) perfect working mechanisms.

Saying 'the creation' is the evidence for a creator is completely circular. It assumes, as a premise, that anything that exists has a creator (intelligent or with a will). It seems this is not true. Cells in my body are constantly 'being created', but not by an intelligent being or will, but rather by non-cognizant biological/natural processes.


1) A human is imperfect and therefore creates imperfect creations - a watch for instance, that will inevitably break down or what not. On the other hand, a god (if we assume the definition which states it is a perfect being), would not create a world with so many imperfections and failures.

2) While a human created the watch, that human is not the end of all, it also must have been created by something (whether intelligent or by natural processes). Thus, the same applies to god, just as it does to the watch. God is infinitely more complex, so it must also have been created. Thus, we are left with an unsolvable infinite regress.

3) Order does not denote intelligent design necessarily. An unorderly world could exist, only there would not be intelligent life to ponder such things.

4) We can explain most things now by purely natural processes. We once needed a "god of the gaps" to explain things, but no longer is it necessary to arbitrarily interject a creator god for our ignorance.

This might require further editing, but I have attempted to explain my position as best I can for your reading pleasure:

I believe in God/the infinite/all because I believe in my own existence, and I believe they are one.

1 - I appear to experience the infinite. Time and space are infinite. Reality is infinite. I can make markers along the flow of time or the expanse of space and call them beginnings and endings and separate existences, but have I really experienced a beginning or an ending? Or have I only declared beginnings and endings?


So, you believe 'you exist' and 'all that exists, exists'. Cool, me too. Though, I don't presume to know that space is infinite. This seems unknowable. Nor do I intend on adding the label 'god' to all that exists, it just seems superfluous.

Who created those non-cognizant biological/natural processes and put them there in the first place?

1) The only failures I see is us as humans, or rather our ego. Everything else is perfect. We have free will. The natural processes don't. The plank equation doesn't change. Neither does the fact that I can't walk through walls. It's our ego that cries at the weather phenomenon that takes people's lives instead of moving on. It's our ego that moves on when it sees the poor and oppressed instead of changing what is here, now.

2) The concept of infinity is pretty complex too, eh?

3) Chaos and order are concepts, too. The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Ponder on that for a while. It'll do the same.

4) Who says God wants you to be ignorant? I haven't heard a word from God about accepting something without reason. Hell, I haven't heard anything from God at all. But, I do have the ingrained curiosity just like every human. Some choose to accept ignorance. It's got nothing to do with a creator.

Who created those non-cognizant biological/natural processes and put them there in the first place?


Again, begging the question/circular reasoning. Premise = conclusion.



1) The only failures I see is us as humans, or rather our ego. Everything else is perfect. We have free will. The natural processes don't. The plank equation doesn't change. Neither does the fact that I can't walk through walls. It's our ego that cries at the weather phenomenon that takes people's lives instead of moving on. It's our ego that moves on when it sees the poor and oppressed instead of changing what is here, now.


I was moreso referring to all the failed species or humans being born with oversized heads and thus leading to many deaths during pregnancy. Far from an intelligent creator.


2) The concept of infinity is pretty complex too, eh?

3) Chaos and order are concepts, too. The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Ponder on that for a while. It'll do the same.


Not sure how to respond/skipping.



4) Who says God wants you to be ignorant? I haven't heard a word from God about accepting something without reason. Hell, I haven't heard anything from God at all. But, I do have the ingrained curiosity just like every human. Some choose to accept ignorance. It's got nothing to do with a creator.

I didn't say god wants anyone to be ignorant. I simply meant people were once ignorant of the physical forces behind the workings of the universe. They once saw an apple fall from a tree and attributed it to the hand of god, instead of gravity. We can now explain "complex" entities in our universe by natural processes. We don't need this watchmaker god anymore to fill in all our gaps.

Who created those non-cognizant biological/natural processes and put them there in the first place?

Let me show you why your logic fails...

Lets say God did...

Where is God's creator?

Where is the being that created God's creator?

So on and so forth down an endless stream of circular faulty logic.

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The correct answer is "I don't know"

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There is a book that has been out for twenty years now, you should read. The book destroys the watchmaker argument. It destroyed it so well and completely it was one of the books that rocketed its author into fame.

"The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins.

He can tell you better than I or Kiko why your watchmaker argument is a pile of shit.

I haven't read Dawkins but I'm sure he's smart.

Where is the being that created God's creator?

So, you agree that the chain ends somewhere?

So, you agree that the chain ends somewhere?

I do not agree or disagree with that, because................

I DONT KNOW!!!

It could be an infinite chain of events involving parrallel or non-parallel dimensions, it could be forever beyond human comphrension, it could be the dream of a sleeping sentient mushroom living amid the blind eternities...

The bottom line is...I dont know...and neither do you.

Claims of knowledge are great things, and you cannot claim to know what caused existence simply b/c you exist.

That is beyond fucking retarded, and I will have you realize that.

Who created the other dimensions and the ability in them to set off this reaction?

I'm claiming the creator's existence, not because I exist but from what I see and observe.

Who created the other dimensions and the ability in them to set off this reaction?

Who says anyone did or had to?

I'm claiming the creator's existence, not because I exist but from what I see and observe.

What you see and observe? This sound empirical. If you can see and observe it and draw your conclusion, surely others can.

So tell me of this empirical evidence you have that suggests a creator exists.

I haven't read Dawkins but I'm sure he's smart.



So, you agree that the chain ends somewhere?

No, that's the whole point. The complexity argument logically leads to an infinite regress. Not that there the "chain" doesn't end somewhere, but the complexity argument does not get us there.

Who says anyone did or had to?



What you see and observe? This sound empirical. If you can see and observe it and draw your conclusion, surely others can.

So tell me of this empirical evidence you have that suggests a creator exists.

I have observed that I, you, and everything is dependent on something beyond this planet or this universe, or time and space. The smallest fluctuation in the many numbers we use to grasp this reality could possibly render this world extinct. And by world, I mean anything you and I can observe.

Who says anyone did or had to?

So, it's inherent in these parallel/multiple dimensions to act this way?

Forget about even parallel dimensions. Take this universe. Even it isn't infinite.

I have observed that I, you, and everything is dependent on something beyond this planet or this universe, or time and space. The smallest fluctuation in the many numbers we use to grasp this reality could possibly render this world extinct. And by world, I mean anything you and I can observe.

This is ONLY evidence for a fragile existence, NOT evidence for a creator...

Forget about even parallel dimensions. Take this universe. Even it isn't infinite.

You do not have access to that information.

You do not KNOW if the universe is infinite or finite. YOU SIMPLY DONT KNOW!!!

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I am amazed you can continue to function as a human and be this obtuse. Don't mean to be an asshole, but your ignorance is frustrating.