http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html


???

I am agnostic and I know there a some inconsistencies in the bible.
I've read it.

But that page is almost completely off. Theres not that many, really.....

It just looks like a bible flaming site.

Chichi, got any ideas or arguments of your own?

I don't know if I am considered a Christian by your standards or the standards of society (grew up Catholic). I do believe that there was a man named Jesus and he was the son of God. I do not believe he was Gods only son though, since we are all Gods children.:confused: Also I believe that God has sent several representatives to try and teach humanity (Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, ect.).

I didn't have time to look over the whole site, but I want to address one issue with your question. I noticed that much of the starting quotes were from the book of Genesis. This is not just a book used by the Christian Bible, but also by the Jewish Torah and Muslim Qur'an. Although not every detain is the exact same, there is clearly a pattern.

I explain your question, by simply saying that the Bible was not directly handed down from God. My Christian Bible is a book of stories that were handed down by the word of mouth & some text copies, until mass produced after the printing press was invented. Even then the texts have been translated and manipulated, so who knows what is 100% true.

Our fundamental flaw in religion, is that we cannot accept that our religion has any falsehoods. Even though Christians and Muslims are very similar, somewhere along the line we decided that the other is blasphemy. God is Allah, and it is not hard to see that both religions worship the same entity.

Religion isn't evil, it is the people who run and shape religion. Until we understand that whatever religious text you read, it is a book of lessons based in some historical fact, we will never fully understand the books. And the part about the Earth and Suns creation, was a story to help explain why there was a glowing ball of fire in the sky.

wow
nicely said Shoebong

I don't know if I am considered a Christian by your standards or the standards of society (grew up Catholic)....

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Dawkins

The lessons that can be learned from the old testament from God no less are very questionable by todays morals. If we get our morality from religion and holy books why would I even need to use the term "todays morals".

You don't believe the bible is the word of God, and say it's rooted in "some historical fact" and you don't think the creation story is meant to be taken literally. Do you believe in the God written about in the old testament? Do you even believe in a personal God? To me your stance sounds like Deism.

"Our fundamental flaw in religion, is that we cannot accept that our religion has any falsehoods."

Couldn't agree more.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Dawkins

When God flooded the Egyptians in the bible the angles cheered. God saw this and said something like "Why do you cheer when I have just kill my children?"

thats not bloodthirsty

When God flooded the Egyptians in the bible the angles cheered. God saw this and said something like "Why do you cheer when I have just kill my children?"

thats not bloodthirsty

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. Exodus 23:23

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 35:7-9

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." Exodus 32:26-29

mmm, copy pasta. The last one is the most telling.

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. Exodus 23:23

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 35:7-9

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." Exodus 32:26-29

mmm, copy pasta. The last one is the most telling.



Did you read why god did that?

It seems to me that alot of these "inconsistencies" are just passages of the Bible taken out of context.

Did you read why god did that?

Even if he didn't - let's hear your opinion on "why God did that". The explanation varies, depending on who you ask, so your interpretation should prove as valid as anyone else's - especially since it is beneath God to explain his motives to us mere mortals.

Did you read why god did that?

I didn't, which I intended to make clear with copy pasta(means it was copied and pasted). But why would god need to kill these people with his all powerful might? Why would he need these people to die if he was all powerful? Why would they need to die? If you know his reason, please divulge.

Man, it took me like two links and a cursory scan of the page to see that it's bullshit by someone who is taking the material in the bible way too literally and in a deliberate attempt to make it contradict itself.

That shit about Cain and Abel, for starters, then moving on to Adam not instantly dying, and so. What a waste of time.

I didn't, which I intended to make clear with copy pasta(means it was copied and pasted). But why would god need to kill these people with his all powerful might? Why would he need these people to die if he was all powerful? Why would they need to die? If you know his reason, please divulge.

They followed a different God which led them to sinning (you know, incest, rape, stealing, murder).

in the bible it said he granted us freewill so he cant just make them change. So he decided to make life easier on everyone else and just kill them.

in the bible it said he granted us freewill so he cant just make them change. So he decided to make life easier on everyone else and just kill them.

What is this supposed to mean?

And if that wasn't enough then God sent a plague on the people because "they made the calf, which Aaron made". Well murder is obviously alright by God.

What is this supposed to mean?

And if that wasn't enough then God sent a plague on the people because "they made the calf, which Aaron made". Well murder is obviously alright by God.

Wouldn't you be pissed off too?

Lets say you save your friends from a slave trader and certain death. You get them land in a far away safe place with everything they need and promise a safe journey. On the way they gangbang your wife/girlfriend and say they're done with you.

in the bible it said he granted us freewill so he cant just make them change. So he decided to make life easier on everyone else and just kill them.

Where does it say that he granted us free will? I've honestly never heard of that. Are you saying that god isn't all powerful? He could create existence, but can't change a few people's beliefs, or just stop their wrong doing, for that matter.

Wouldn't you be pissed off too?

Lets say you save your friends from a slave trader and certain death. You get them land in a far away safe place with everything they need and promise a safe journey. On the way they gangbang your wife/girlfriend and say they're done with you.

The problem with this analogy is that you aren't all powerful. God is.

Also, whatever happened to god's plan? I was taught that god had a plan for everyone, so to make life easier by killing them seems like a dumb argument. Couldn't he have just made life easier from the beginning? Also, why didn't he? Why doesn't he kill all the non-believers today? Or all the sinners? Some rapists still walk free, why?

EDIT: I have read why god did the things that he did in my post, here are his reasons.

1. These people were living on the land that God was giving to the Israelites, they worshiped different gods. Why couldn't God just give the Israelites better land somewhere else(he did create everything)?

2. The people of mount Seir attacked the Israelites. This brings to mind the terrorist attacks against Israel today, why does god allow them? Back then he would not stand for it.

3. Those people began to worship a different god. Kind of petty, if you ask me, especially when God is all powerful and can do anything.

Where does it say that he granted us free will? I've honestly never heard of that. Are you saying that god isn't all powerful? He could create existence, but can't change a few people's beliefs, or just stop their wrong doing, for that matter.



The problem with this analogy is that you aren't all powerful. God is.

Also, whatever happened to god's plan? I was taught that god had a plan for everyone, so to make life easier by killing them seems like a dumb argument. Couldn't he have just made life easier from the beginning? Also, why didn't he? Why doesn't he kill all the non-believers today? Or all the sinners? Some rapists still walk free, why?



Ill tell you what I honestly think

First, God has never messed with freewill and will never mess with freewill, that would be like turning someone into a slave.

Second is I don't know if he even has a plan or if God even exist. Maybe he lets the rapist walk "free" as a test of faith or he just wants to see what we do about it. I don't know. I believe nobody really knows whats going on, not even me.
I was just talking about the bible.

Ill tell you what I honestly think

First, God has never messed with freewill and will never mess with freewill, that would be like turning someone into a slave.

Second is I don't know if he even has a plan or if God even exist. Maybe he lets the rapist walk "free" as a test of faith or he just wants to see what we do about it. I don't know. I believe nobody really knows whats going on, not even me.
I was just talking about the bible.

Why do you ignore some of my questions?

Well, why can't he just mess with free will once, for the best for everybody, instead of killing people? This means that killing people is alright by god. Again, if he is willing to kill people for the best of everybody, why does he allow other bad people to walk around committing more sins? A test of faith? Why didn't test the faith of people back then? Why only now?

Why do you ignore some of my questions?

Well, why can't he just mess with free will once, for the best for everybody, instead of killing people? This means that killing people is alright by god. Again, if he is willing to kill people for the best of everybody, why does he allow other bad people to walk around committing more sins? A test of faith? Why didn't test the faith of people back then? Why only now?

I told you....I really don't know

I think he did test a lot of peoples back then though.

It seems to me that alot of these "inconsistencies" are just passages of the Bible taken out of context.

Very much agreed, especially the early Genesis ones. There are WAY too many to give a point-by-point rebuttal.

Well, why can't he just mess with free will once, for the best for everybody, instead of killing people? This means that killing people is alright by god. Again, if he is willing to kill people for the best of everybody, why does he allow other bad people to walk around committing more sins? A test of faith? Why didn't test the faith of people back then? Why only now?

Even though I'm not a believer, I can answer this.

Because it wouldn't solve anything. Sure, he could "mess with it once", but that wouldn't fix it at the root of the problem, that root being the flawed way he made human beings. Most Christians would probably tell you that the ability to commit evil acts is part and parcel of having free will, but that's only because we were (hypothetically) designed that way. For him to take away that now would be to violate everything free will is supposed to be about.

Which basically means that he can't fix his fuck up - the only way it could be made right is if he didn't fuck it up in the first place.

The irony of which is that he's supposed to be perfect. Heh.

in the bible it said he granted us freewill so he cant just make them change. So he decided to make life easier on everyone else and just kill them.

Well gee, I consider murdering me a pretty fucking big infringement upon my freewill.

Well gee, I consider murdering me a pretty fucking big infringement upon my freewill.

It's really not, though. One: For me to murder you, you'd have to be in the group of people I'm trying to murder. That gives you one option to avoid death. Two: You have feet, you can run. Another option to avoid death. Three: You have arms...a body with which to fight back. A third option as to avoid being murdered. Four: I can be murdered too. If you REALLY wanted to, you could probably hunt me down and murder me first. One more option.

You have plenty of different choices that contribute to your survival or demise. That you don't know which ones are which doesn't negate that you have the choice and make the decision. This is where it's helpful to have a conscious relationship with God (something that cannot be found in a church or a book): God will let you know which decision is right in every single situation you go into, being well aware that we don't have the slightest clue as to what we're doing on this planet.

If you end up getting murdered, you did in fact choose to be murdered. Maybe in complete ignorance of the full consequences of your choices, but everything we do ties into the next occurence in life. Blaming another person for our misfortune is tiresome and childish. Do we deserve everything that happens to us? I don't know. But it certainly doesn't 'just happen'.

You can't be raped in a dark alley if you don't go in a dark alley...so to say.

Or perhaps you misunderstand volition to mean the ability to impose your will on the world, when in fact, it means that God allows you to choose which aspect of It you experience next. It isn't called God because it gives us all the power; It is called God because it has ALL the power, imposes its will in any way, shape, or form it pleases, and is absolutely unstoppable in all it does. That it's kind enough to let me know what the absolute best decision is, and still allows me to choose otherwise, is quite enough for me to understand that it loves me.

It's really not, though. One: For me to murder you, you'd have to be in the group of people I'm trying to murder. That gives you one option to avoid death. Two: You have feet, you can run. Another option to avoid death. Three: You have arms...a body with which to fight back. A third option as to avoid being murdered. Four: I can be murdered too. If you REALLY wanted to, you could probably hunt me down and murder me first. One more option.

That's so insanely .... deluded. I want to say ignorant, but it's not as if you are clueless, it's just that you seem to really believe that we can CHOOSE not to be murdered. If I walke up to you on the bus and stab you in the throat because I am a crazy motherfucker, you will have zip zilch and zero say in the matter. I fly an F-15 over city and bomb the shit out of you without warning, you will die whether you chose to or not. Me and my thug buddies ambush you drag you into an alley before you know what the fuck is happening, you gonna git raped whether you want it or not.

Your scenario assumes omnipotence and omniscience, absolute knowledge and control of everything around you. We're humans, not gods, and we don't have that.

Yes, there are things we can do to contribute or help prevent our demise, but there are limitations. Beyond your own small contributions... there is absolutely nothing you can say or do.

As for God's contribution to the process, I've got millions of corpses in the Holocaust that says he doesn't give a shit.

skimming over that list, it's obvious they really, really WANTED to find things, so they ignored a lot of things to find them. damned idiots.

I don't know if I am considered a Christian by your standards or the standards of society (grew up Catholic). I do believe that there was a man named Jesus and he was the son of God. I do not believe he was Gods only son though, since we are all Gods children.:confused: Also I believe that God has sent several representatives to try and teach humanity (Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, ect.).

I didn't have time to look over the whole site, but I want to address one issue with your question. I noticed that much of the starting quotes were from the book of Genesis. This is not just a book used by the Christian Bible, but also by the Jewish Torah and Muslim Qur'an. Although not every detain is the exact same, there is clearly a pattern.

I explain your question, by simply saying that the Bible was not directly handed down from God. My Christian Bible is a book of stories that were handed down by the word of mouth & some text copies, until mass produced after the printing press was invented. Even then the texts have been translated and manipulated, so who knows what is 100% true.

Our fundamental flaw in religion, is that we cannot accept that our religion has any falsehoods. Even though Christians and Muslims are very similar, somewhere along the line we decided that the other is blasphemy. God is Allah, and it is not hard to see that both religions worship the same entity.

Religion isn't evil, it is the people who run and shape religion. Until we understand that whatever religious text you read, it is a book of lessons based in some historical fact, we will never fully understand the books. And the part about the Earth and Suns creation, was a story to help explain why there was a glowing ball of fire in the sky.

Very well said.

wow none of you that ive read has said something as obvious as the ones who take the bible literally are fuckin tards

im not a christian by any means, but what i am is a gnostic. the bible is meant to be allegorical, you really think god made the world in 7 days and he had to take a nap after? you really believe there was only adam and eve and the world was created by 2 fuckin people!? that cain and abel are 2 different people? idiots!

everything in the bible is meant to have a meaning, an example: could cain and abel be one in the same? showing the dichotomy of man? could adam and eve represent men and women?

as for that bible flaming site, oh yea it was written by a bunch of dudes after they heard the same story over and over and over again. the bible means nothing to me personally, but if you're gonna flame it, flame it with some competence you fuckin idiots.

all people should be respected, given the same respect as you would want to be given. that includes their stupid religions and beliefs.

religion in general just gives people to hate one another. its all the same when we die. dont be a dick and erase some fools idealogy of living for something.

Simply:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J6b_vVNP4nM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-nayP4v4xYg

Good old Gilvideo

Technically Catholic with ongoing faith identity crisis, here. To attempt to explain things, Chichi, I agree there are tons of obvious inconsistencies in Genesis, the moon giving off its own light for instance, that we simply know to be wrong today.

That said, I'm of the opinion that it's apparent some portions of the Bible were meant to be taken literally - like Deuteronomy or Leviticus, and that's a huge problem for people (even believers) with modern notions of ethical conduct. That aside, I think there are also a great number of portions meant to be allegorical, perhaps even the Genesis account of creation.

It also seems a great majority of the mistakes pointed out in your link are pretty insubstantial. Many fall in the category of misreporting various figures or mixing up the chronological order of events. This seems less odd when one considers the fact that for hundreds of years, the Jewish tradition of religion, law, and ethics was an oral one. Rabbis debated points of scripture and legality orally for a very long time. It wasn't until the Babylonian exile that the Rabbinic tradition was recorded. Also remember that the Babylonian exile immediately follow the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (the center of this oral debate and study). Many historians and anthropologists consider the possibility that Jewish tradition was 'rewritten' for lack of a better word during this first recording to adapt to the new reality of a life without the forum and ability to discuss points of law and tradition. The idea is, faced with the destruction of their home and center of learning and faith, the Jews reconstructed parts of their oral tradition to better make sense of how such a horrible fate could befall God's chosen people.

And it's also important to note that all the books that make up the Bible were not written all at once but over the span of many many years. It's always possible for records, however well kept or recited orally, to change in detail over time. And without the luxury of being able to easily look back in a written record for the exact details, some guess work probably occurred.

It's really not, though.

God determines who is going to heaven ...

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

and who is going to hell.

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

There's nothing you can do about it.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

--------

Human beings do not have free will according to your christian bible, the word of your God.

Done.

God determines who is going to heaven ...

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

and who is going to hell.

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

There's nothing you can do about it.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

--------

Human beings do not have free will according to your christian bible, the word of your God.

Done.

Check out the vids I posted. A guy does nothing but talk about how the Bible is flawed. He even has one about how the Bible says you have no free will.

And here it is:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-nayP4v4xYg