Do you think it's feasible for our society (I'm specifically addressing other Americans, though this applies to all human societies) to eradicate stupidity, such that the vast majority of people are rational, logical, scientific thinkers that aren't controlled by unproven (or disproven, usually) beliefs?

I can't help but thinking that ANY attempts on a government level would inevitably lead us down a slippery slope, though at the same time, I also think that most people could use several swift kicks in the ass (metaphorically) for their insane beliefs. I think just about everyone has prejudices and mild superstitions, but the rational and scientific thinkers can ultimately conquer such things. For instance, I'll admit that racist ideas have entered my head on numerous occasions, but because I'm reasonably good at rational thinking and have a grasp on the scientific method, such ideas never become a reality for me. In contrast, the racists that want to erradicate every non- from the planet obviously never got the memo.

To define who I'm referring to as stupid: Some would argue that perception is reality, and that there's no true "objectivity' in our world. While that's true in some ways, I think that science and logical-thinking does afford us an objective way of defining reality. No matter what a person thinks is there, you can almost always test the physical result of the situation. On that basis, we can form an objective map of reality. "Stupid" people can be redefined as delusional: ignoring concrete evidence or major logical steps, and continuing on with their beliefs.

Unless a person is legitimately mentally handicapped, I think that they are definitely capable of being a rational, logical thinker. The problem, in my opinion, is often that they form an irrational belief (usually with some basis in observational fact) and through some means that belief becomes their reality. If someone says that gravity doesn't exist, then most people would scoff and say "That's bullshit.". Of course, with science you can effectively prove that everything going up will eventually come down. A delusional person would see all of this evidence and one way or another, would conclude that there is no force pulling people downward on Earth. At any rate, there are different levels of delusion...ranging from minor prejudices or superstitions, to the guy sitting in a refrigerator trying to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere. (:p) If you look at yourself and all the people you've met or heard of, it should be fairly clear that there's some level of delusion in all of us.

[I]So, since we're all delusional (read: "stupid") on some level, and since it seems likely that we can curb our delusions with the proper environment, I return to my original question. Is there any feasible way that we could eradicate stupidity, either as citizens, or on a legal level (ie. via state/federal bans). (If you tackle the question on a legal level, please don't ignore the slippery slope factor).

Okay, let me rephrase:

What's an alternative to just killing all of the white supremacists, ignoramuses, and religious fanatics?

Okay, let me rephrase:

What's an alternative to just killing all of the white supremacists, ignoramuses, and religious fanatics?

Education

Education

There are plenty of well-educated white nationalists and religious fanatics. For many people, the issue often isn't a lack of knowledge, but faulty beliefs and a refusal to properly incorporate knowledge.

Stupid People: Because someone has to shovel the shit.

Okay, let me rephrase:

What's an alternative to just killing all of the white supremacists, ignoramuses, and religious fanatics?

Ignore them, that's the most effective way of dealing with them.

Ignore them, that's the most effective way of dealing with them.

It's everywhere. Just open the newspaper or turn on the news and you're guaranteed to see delusional behavior of all order of magnitudes. The problem is that it's highly likely that such behavior will affect us all at some point.

I think just about everyone is capable of being logical and non-delusional...I think it's kind of crazy not to strive for that. So really guys, any ideas for practical solutions? I mentioned "alternative to killing" as a joke; if you killed the current delusional people, there would always be more in their place. There are external causes that cause people to grow up this way, and I'd be curious on your thoughts to what these causes are.

Should schools focus extensively on critical thinking skills and science instead of the traditional topics such as arithmetic and reading? It's important that people can read and do math, and those skills do contribute to contribute to cognitive development, but...I think are too many people that can read well and understand numbers, but that can't think logically. Think about all of the Totseans that can endlessly quote studies or statistics, but usually overestimate the validity of such things, or completely misinterpret the results.

It doesn't matter much. Yes, there exist a lot of stupid ideas that are obviously wrong to anyone with half a brain, but at the same time there are very few ideas that you can reasonably have any real degree of certainty about (at least when they have to do with human nature and systems). The more you know, the more commonly held ideas can be discounted. Even in the rare case that a person comes to logical conclusions based on what they know, the quality of their deductions has more to do with the quality of their assumptions than their raw intellectual ability. Ultimately, I think that significant practical experience with the issue in question is the only way to have an opinion that is not stupid.

We don't know shit about most things but pretend we do.

To solve this problem, it would help a lot to make some small changes to the school curriculum. When you're taught to write, they always insist above all else that you take a stand one way or the other and do not use terms like 'I think' or discuss possible reasons why you could be wrong. The intention is to teach students to write things that convince people of things, the effect is that they end up thinking its ok to have an opinion without knowing much at all about your subject.

That and whatever causes groups of people to take a set of opinions (usually political) and repeat them with the exact same arguments ad nauseum regardless of whether those arguments are relevant or have a basis in reality.

It's probably something you can't fix in the end. People love their opinions, love feeling outrage and superiority towards everyone that disagrees with them.

It doesn't matter much. Yes, there exist a lot of stupid ideas that are obviously wrong to anyone with half a brain, but at the same time there are very few ideas that you can reasonably have any real degree of certainty about (at least when they have to do with human nature and systems). The more you know, the more commonly held ideas can be discounted. Even in the rare case that a person comes to logical conclusions based on what they know, the quality of their deductions has more to do with the quality of their assumptions than their raw intellectual ability. Ultimately, I think that significant practical experience with the issue in question is the only way to have an opinion that is not stupid.

We don't know shit about most things but pretend we do.

To solve this problem, it would help a lot to make some small changes to the school curriculum. When you're taught to write, they always insist above all else that you take a stand one way or the other and do not use terms like 'I think' or discuss possible reasons why you could be wrong. The intention is to teach students to write things that convince people of things, the effect is that they end up thinking its ok to have an opinion without knowing much at all about your subject.

That and whatever causes groups of people to take a set of opinions (usually political) and repeat them with the exact same arguments ad nauseum regardless of whether those arguments are relevant or have a basis in reality.

It's probably something you can't fix in the end. People love their opinions, love feeling outrage and superiority towards everyone that disagrees with them.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Your spot on about our tendency to pretend we know and understand everything, as well the problems with persuasive writing. It's kind of disturbing, if you think about it. From a relatively young age, we were being trained to convince everyone around us that we were "right". That's definitely a tendency that needs to be done away with in schools.

I was also thinking that in early grammar school they should focus on real-world critical thinking problems. We're at our most impressionable at a young age, so if you train children to look at things from all angles, I think they'd grow up to be much smarter individuals. For instance, starting from Kindergarten teachers give the class group word-problems (presented with pictures and oral descriptions, obviously) where they're forced to find non-linear possible solutions. Let's say you showed them a picture of an empty cookie jar and four children: one with cookie crumbs on his face, one that's fat, one that's skinny, and one that is nondescript. You then train them by asking questions such as "What do you know?", "Why do you think the big kid/skinny kid/crumbs-on-face kid/nondescript kid/etc. took the cookie?", and so on. Train them to recognize what things they know for sure, and train them to consider all the possibilities. I may be wrong, but in my experiencce it seems that children are actually better at this than adults. If an adult was asked 'Who took the cookies", I'd guess that most would give a definitive answer, and they'd probably choose the person with cookie crumbs on their face. Kids seem to be more creative: "I think it was Billy (the nondescript kid). Maybe he wanted to have a cookie before he went to school but his mom wouldn't let him, so he took the cookies."

As they get older and more mature, you train them to identify likely possibilities without being close-minded to other options. You'd give them more complex, real-world situations too.

I think if we could implement those types of programs as major parts of school curriculum's, we'd be much better off.

well-educated...religious fanatics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_History

HAH!

OP, sure "stupid" people ignore "objectivity", if you will. I guess I would say that there is one absolute Truth. This Truth (with a capital T) is somewhat known to us as a civilization. The rest of the "truths" we come up with are simply maxims. From these stem Realities (perceived), which are different for every person.

For example, way back in time, people held it as truth that roses were red (the "truth" which was really a maxim.) Then someone figured out how to have different-coloured roses. And now with science you can do other things too (don't quote me on this because I don't know a lot about flowers) such as making something that was a rose into something that is closer to a different type of plant completely. So really, what is a rose? Can we assume the absolute Truth in saying that it is just a plant? What if science one day reveals it is part of something else?

Another example, because the above one sucked: Not even fifty years ago, people assumed that it was the truth that a man was a man and a woman was a woman, and that whatever you are born as, you will die as. Science proved this maxim wrong, and so we never knew the absolute Truth, and maybe still don't. The Reality for any given person could be skewed by nurture. Some family in Winnipeg a while back had two baby boys, and when the circumcision process screwed up and the 2nd boy's penis had to be removed, he was brought up as a girl. His Reality was that he was a girl, though in fact he had been born a boy, and later found this out. Thus he had assumed the absolute Truth and had been wrong. Some transsexuals, though, are the other way around.

What is truth, what is objectivity? What is Truth? I would say that it is possible to instill certain beliefs into people but then you're becoming totalitarian in the Orwellian belief (which seems pretty bad to me). There will always be stupid people in the world, and the smart people balance it out. There tends to be a certain equilibrium. If everyone were as smart as you want them to be, then would you be stupid by those same standards? If everyone were smart, shit would go down.

In short, don't ever stop trying to educate people, and think critically. If you think someone has something wrong, tell them what you think (in a polite way if possible) and present them evidence; whether or not they choose to accept it is completely up to them. As Orwell said, it takes as much effort to be stupid as it does to be intellectual.


Also, Chicken of Doom and DerDrache raise excellent points about schooling. I agree with you on those.

I think this needs to be approached from the perspective of "cultures of stupidity".

I think the majority of children have to be conditioned and allowed to be stupid. This is partly done by intellectual deprivation during childhood. The other is bombarding them with "stupid information and ideas" so the result is programmed stupidity.

So the internet is a new way to reach kids with stuff that is "not stupid" but there are lots of people with a vested interest in promoting stupidity Welcome to the internet mind war.

Resistance to Stupidity is Futile!

Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain.

LOL

39 years after the moon landing and American economists can't figure out planned obsolescence is going on in automobiles? Is that stupid or is that a BIG LIE?

DT

^
https://webspace.utexas.edu/warnerwt/picard-facepalm.jpg

Resistance to Stupidity is Futile!

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/5/51/LocutusOfBorg2367.jpg/292px-LocutusOfBorg2367.jpg

LOL

I have devised a foolproof means of eradicating generic human stupidity, but you insist on declaring me either a troll or a sadist when I explain it.
You can't have your cake and eat it.

Edit: And your use of "emo", which is out of context in this case, seeing as my idea has nothing to do with terribly composed music.

There's always the chance the stupid person stumbles onto something valuable, so the majority can't always be right.

That and until we invent roboslaves or erase some shit from the constitution we need someone to pump our gas.

Or we could simply out breed them; as a Mensa member and a owner of a penis I volunteer for this herculean task :D

I have devised a foolproof means of eradicating generic human stupidity, but you insist on declaring me either a troll or a sadist when I explain it.
You can't have your cake and eat it.

Edit: And your use of "emo", which is out of context in this case, seeing as my idea has nothing to do with terribly composed music.

I think there are definitely humans out there that have, for all practical purposes, managed to rid themselves of stupidity. Wanting everyone to die instead of tackling the problem at its source is kinda...dumb.

What I mean is: There's nothing inherently wrong with humans being alive. The problem is that we tend to do idiotic things. The very mental characteristics that make us so intelligent (ie. generalizations of our environment, pattern-finding) also make us superstious, ignorant zealouts half of the time.

Also, if everyone was completely objective, there would be mass chaos.

just throwing this into the mix of borgs and things.

To eradicate the stupidity of the human race,...we must eradicate the race that is on top of that stupidity pyramid....the negroid race.

Therefore, a genocide is a must.

Fact : Hundred of years ago, the negroid race had used Chinese made plates and bowls as a decorative item on the walls of their castle.

Fact : Today, the negroid race still uses certain weird, random object as their decorative item, known to them and us as the "bling-blings"

Hence, the negroid race is both the pinnacle and the pioneer of human stupidity...and shall be eliminated...;)

To eradicate the stupidity of the human race,...we must eradicate the race that is on top of that stupidity pyramid....the negroid race.

Therefore, a genocide is a must.

Fact : Hundred of years ago, the negroid race had used Chinese made plates and bowls as a decorative item on the walls of their castle.

Fact : Today, the negroid race still uses certain weird, random object as their decorative item, known to them and us as the "bling-blings"

Hence, the negroid race is both the pinnacle and the pioneer of human stupidity...and shall be eliminated...;)

Fact: Methamatician is on my ignore list.

I have honestly, in all seriousness, considered finishing school, getting a solid job, and assassinating people in my spare time. CEOs, lobbyists, stupid people, ann coulter, westboro baptist church lady etc.

Fact: Methamatician is on my ignore list.

Oh, yeah, ignoring the one who presented FACTS to back-up their arguments,...how smart...

Okay, let me rephrase:

What's an alternative to just killing all of the white supremacists, ignoramuses, and religious fanatics?

Killing all of the communists, bleeding hearts and whoever else you have a beef with.

Okay, let me rephrase:

What's an alternative to just killing all of the white supremacists, ignoramuses, and religious fanatics?

Evolution.

Interesting thread, all though I would agree with such an eradication, I think it would be easier to stop them from reproducing.

What I mean is: There's nothing inherently wrong with humans being alive. The problem is that we tend to do idiotic things. The very mental characteristics that make us so intelligent (ie. generalizations of our environment, pattern-finding) also make us superstious, ignorant zealouts half of the time.

Humans are bound by instinct, just like any other animal on this planet, which is why it is impossible to "eradicate stupidity". No matter how "intelligent" you think this pathetic species is, humans will always do what suits their own needs, regardless of how illogical or immoral their methods may be.

You seem to be suggesting that humanity can somehow overcome millions of years of genetically programmed responses just because it's able to recognise and manipulate it's environment.
Which, politely put, is very naive of you.

The only sensible and foolproof options available, are to either eradicate instinct or exterminate all life.

Humans are bound by instinct, just like any other animal on this planet, which is why it is impossible to "eradicate stupidity". No matter how "intelligent" you think this pathetic species is, humans will always do what suits their own needs, regardless of how illogical or immoral their methods may be.

You seem to be suggesting that humanity can somehow overcome millions of years of genetically programmed responses just because it's able to recognise and manipulate it's environment.
Which, politely put, is very naive of you.

The only sensible and foolproof options available, are to either eradicate instinct or exterminate all life.

The "millions of years of genetically programmed responses" makes us smart and "dumb" at the same time. The same mental processing abilities that allow us to react to our environment and survive also give us a tendency to form wholly illogical beliefs. For instance, humans tend to remember things that cause some sort of emotional "shock" (a necessary trait for survival). Taking an example from the psychologist Thomas Gilovich: If a person hears the phone ring while they're in the shower, then it will usually register as an event (they might have to get out and walk to the phone naked; they're cold, wet, etc.). When this happens twice, they remember the earlier event, and this is how superstitious beliefs like "The phone always rings when I get in the shower" form. Of course, all of the times that they have had an un-interrupted shower will go unnoticed, and thus a generally intelligent person will form an irrational belief. When people are made aware of their tendency for irrational thought, it's easy to avoid making such mistakes.

The shower example is of course analogous to your own irrational belief. You take note every time the media reports vile or stupid human behavior, conclude that humans are inherently "immoral" (or "bad", "evil", etc.), and ignore instances of good human behavior. Logically, if we should be eradicated for our bad behavior, then we should be allowed to thrive for our good behavior. I expect your reponse to that would be: "But the bad actions outweigh the good". And again, your judgement would be clouded by your attachment to your belief. In your entire life you haven't even seen, heard about, or been in the vicinity of but a tiny percentage of the people on the planet. Of those people that you do have some experience with, you only know of their behavior for a limited amount of time.

And of course, the biggest logic-gap in your argument is the idea that anything is objectively good, bad, moral, or immoral. That measure only exists in our minds, and there is no universal or logical measure to it. Outside of our own morality, killing a baby is no more good or bad than curing cancer. So, since you can't define any action as objectively good or bad, your notion that humans "should" be eviscerated for "immoral" behavior, is completely meaningless. Even if we assumed that everyone on the planet liked to murder, kill, rape, and destroy the environment, your claim would still be utterly destroyed by the fact that nothing is objectively immoral or bad.

This sounds like a job for General Semantics!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics

http://www.pdf-search-engine.com/science-and-sanity-pdf.html

DT

The "millions of years of genetically programmed responses" makes us smart and "dumb" at the same time. The same mental processing abilities that allow us to react to our environment and survive also give us a tendency to form wholly illogical beliefs. For instance, humans tend to remember things that cause some sort of emotional "shock" (a necessary trait for survival). Taking an example from the psychologist Thomas Gilovich: If a person hears the phone ring while they're in the shower, then it will usually register as an event (they might have to get out and walk to the phone naked; they're cold, wet, etc.). When this happens twice, they remember the earlier event, and this is how superstitious beliefs like "The phone always rings when I get in the shower" form. Of course, all of the times that they have had an un-interrupted shower will go unnoticed, and thus a generally intelligent person will form an irrational belief. When people are made aware of their tendency for irrational thought, it's easy to avoid making such mistakes.

The shower example is of course analogous to your own irrational belief. You take note every time the media reports vile or stupid human behavior, conclude that humans are inherently "immoral" (or "bad", "evil", etc.), and ignore instances of good human behavior. Logically, if we should be eradicated for our bad behavior, then we should be allowed to thrive for our good behavior. I expect your reponse to that would be: "But the bad actions outweigh the good". And again, your judgement would be clouded by your attachment to your belief. In your entire life you haven't even seen, heard about, or been in the vicinity of but a tiny percentage of the people on the planet. Of those people that you do have some experience with, you only know of their behavior for a limited amount of time.

And of course, the biggest logic-gap in your argument is the idea that anything is objectively good, bad, moral, or immoral. That measure only exists in our minds, and there is no universal or logical measure to it. Outside of our own morality, killing a baby is no more good or bad than curing cancer. So, since you can't define any action as objectively good or bad, your notion that humans "should" be eviscerated for "immoral" behavior, is completely meaningless. Even if we assumed that everyone on the planet liked to murder, kill, rape, and destroy the environment, your claim would still be utterly destroyed by the fact that nothing is objectively immoral or bad.

"Smart" and "dumb" are arbitrary subjective values as well though. :confused:

That would mean, by your definition, that this entire thread is meaningless given the fact that it is based on your subjective experience and completely disregards the fact that stupidity is an artificial construct of individual experience and not a permanent universal qualia or concept.

Should schools focus extensively on critical thinking skills



YES!

Schools do a terrible job, though. If you quizzed a random person on the street, they would perform pretty terribly on even a simple math test. We need to improve education on all levels. MUCH more emphasis on critical thinking. For some reason, people get all up in arms about teaching kids critical thinking skills. We need more of the Socratic method. More GOOD teachers, and less bad ones. Fire the bad ones. Allow the good ones to hand-pick the new hires.

More GOOD teachers, and less bad ones. Fire the bad ones. Allow the good ones to hand-pick the new hires.

Are you suggesting we nerve gas the Teacher's Union meetings? LOL

That might work.

DT

Maybe you're the delusional one.

Okay, let me rephrase:

What's an alternative to just killing all of the white supremacists, ignoramuses, and religious fanatics?

How? When people feel it's "loyal" & "patriotic" to be partisan? To lean unfairly towards & be lenient to the malfeasance & lies of one's own side? How many American Demonrats/Pubrats are blind to Obama's (McCain's/Bush's etc.) lies? To any one of them being bought & paid for by the rich & powerful?

In any other area of human activity too: are you going to force the young/middles/old to all agree & be of one mind? What about you? Are you so darn hip/cool that you don't have any erroneous thinking in your head? How can people/a person be right in everything that they think & do? Isn't it hubris to think that that is even possible?

How? When people feel it's "loyal" & "patriotic" to be partisan? To lean unfairly towards & be lenient to the malfeasance & lies of one's own side? How many American Demonrats/Pubrats are blind to Obama's (McCain's/Bush's etc.) lies? To any one of them being bought & paid for by the rich & powerful?

In any other area of human activity too: are you going to force the young/middles/old to all agree & be of one mind? What about you? Are you so darn hip/cool that you don't have any erroneous thinking in your head? How can people/a person be right in everything that they think & do? Isn't it hubris to think that that is even possible?

This thread is about promoting critical thinking and curbing our habit of developing delusional beliefs of all orders of magnitude. No one's talking about "being of one mind", being "hip/cool", or always being right.

Stop with the hippie-poetry bullshit for a few minutes and maybe you'd know what's going on.

This thread is about promoting critical thinking and curbing our habit of developing delusional beliefs of all orders of magnitude. No one's talking about "being of one mind", being "hip/cool", or always being right.

Stop with the hippie-poetry bullshit for a few minutes and maybe you'd know what's going on.

All of that is subjective.

All of that is subjective.

Thinking intelligently and critically is looking at what's in front of you and considering all of the possible interpretations. People will perhaps have different, subjective ways of interpreting things, but it's just hypothesizing. Ultimately, the different hypotheses can be put to the test to give some objective results.

"Hippe-poetry bullshit" is indeed subjective. I never said that people weren't entitled to subjective thoughts. I just said that your opinion had no basis in anything outside of your head. Even within the confines of human morality, you still couldn't reasonably show that humans are indeed "bad" most of the time, nor that they meet any standard of behaving "too badly". On the other hand, humans do have definitions for "hippie" and "poetry", and moonmeister's post could definitely fall into those categories. Anyways, have you ever attempted to have a more positive outlook on life? The end of humanity probably won't be happening in your lifetime...don't you think there are more productive things to do? Sex, drugs, and rock n' roll, perhaps?

Thinking intelligently and critically is looking at what's in front of you and considering all of the possible interpretations. People will perhaps have different, subjective ways of interpreting things, but it's just hypothesizing. Ultimately, the different hypotheses can be put to the test to give some objective results.

Hmmm....that's funny considering the fact that it came from someone who actively ignores the facts....or it's presenters....

There are plenty of well-educated white nationalists and religious fanatics. For many people, the issue often isn't a lack of knowledge, but faulty beliefs and a refusal to properly incorporate knowledge.

Why do you want to rid of them in the first place?

Personal beliefs are the smallest factor in the problems of the world. Ideas cannot be removed, ideas never die, holders of ideas may die, but the idea will remain.

It is a much better idea to dissolve government and tyranny rather than simple, harmless, ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_History

HAH!

Please tell me you are not trying to refute his idea of intelligent religious people with Wikipedia references...

God, the irony.

Thinking intelligently and critically is looking at what's in front of you and considering all of the possible interpretations.

That's contradictory. If you were intelligent, you wouldn't limit yourself to observe only what is tangible. You wouldn't allow yourself to be ruled by your senses. If you were intelligent, considering all possible interpretations doens't mean,

"Only listen to other people who agree with me and ignore the religious people because I'm smarter lol"
Thats just how this discussion is coming off to me, though. Whatever.

It is not possible to eradicate stupidity.

There is no cure for stupid, we can only address it's symptoms.

We can minimize stupidity, through proper education, but stupid will follow humankind until the end of time.

One of the best treatments for stupidity is logic. Apply logic liberally to the affected area for a few days and if the stupidity does not abate, you are dealing with Zman.

One of the best treatments for stupidity is logic. Apply logic liberally to the affected area for a few days and if the stupidity does not abate, you are dealing with Zman.

I lawled.