The issue of good and evil is one that theologians and secular philosophers have been dealing with for thousands of years. In this thread, I will try to explain my take on these issues. My intent is neither to convince nor convert; my intent is simply to communicate my truth with clarity, compassion, and completeness. And alliteration, evidently.

Christian theology contends that we are born evil (the doctrine of Original Sin) due to the actions of some mythical people at some unclear point in the past. Most of us here reject that notion.

I have stated before that at the Highest Level, there is no difference between good and evil. Some members become quite annoyed by this notion, and respond with hostility and invective--this suggests I have inadvertantly struck a nerve. I still maintain that not only is there no difference between the two, at both metaphysical and mundane levels, the terms are essentially devoid of meaning. Good and bad are simply labels we place on thing to denote our approval or disapproval. In general, we tend to label good that which serves us, and bad which does not serve us.

Take something as mundane as weather. Fair weather is "good" if you are planning a picnic, but very "bad" to a farmer whose crops are dying due to drought. Take movies--if I say a movie was "bad", all you know about it is that I didn't like it--no useful information has been conveyed. If I say the plot was cliched, the acting was wooden, and the FX primitive--then I have said something meaningful.

But people are neither weather nor movies. Still, I reject the notion that there are good and bad people. In my view, we are all perfect in our way--God neither creates junk nor makes mistakes. Neale Donald Walsch quotes God thusly:

I am going to tell you this, there are no "rotten apples." There are only people who disagree with your point of view on things, people who construct a different model of the world. I am going to tell you this: no persons do anything inappropriate, given their model of the world. (end quote)


Suppose you disagree, and choose to judge and label people. (The Bible says "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I think this means that in the very act of judging, you judge yourself--that is, you define yourself in terms of what you approve of.) There is nothing "wrong" with this, but it does tend to retard one's spiritual evolution. I have been taught, and accept as true, however, that feeling superior to those you judge as inferior to you is a very cheap way of feeling good about yourself. In my view, no one is any better or any worse than anyone else--at the Highest Reality, we are all one, all part of the universal force or information field collectively known as God.

In onther words, no one is somehow inherantly more important in the greater scheme of things.

I am NOT saying we are all the same, or even that we are all equaly valuable in terms of our contribution to society or abilities. I may be crazy, but I ain't stupid. I think it wise to acknowledge and celebrate our differences, while still recognizing that we are all fruit of the same tree. However, if you make mor emoney and pay more taxes than I (and most people in America do), that in no way makes you "better" than I. Some of us are more highly spiritually evolved than others (think Mother Theresa vs Jeffrey Dahmer, to cite extreme examples)--but if you think God lovesd MT more than JD, you have a lot to learn about God. Both of them did what seemed appropriate to them at the time, both had immortal souls, and (I suspect) that both have already reincarnated into lives that are radically different than the ones they are known for.

And neither do I say that the more highly spiritually evolved are "better" than those less so--that a person at level six is somehow three times as good as someone at level two. Thing is, we are all on the path to sainthood--spiritual evolution is not only mandatory, but inevitable. Indeed, a person at level two, who is honestly and sincerely plagued with guilt and driven by ambition, is far more spiritual than someone who pretends to be a saint.

Unity consciousness, the gut feeling that we are indeed All One is a level seven thing. Those at other levels do not have much chance of grokking this in fullness. And they will get no help from society or popular culture in terms of evolving farther. Governments, particularly during wartime, foster an us versus them mentality, and try to dehumanize the enemy.

I notice this is getting rather long, so I think I'll end this now, and try to amplify and expand upon these ideas in posts further along in the thread.

I have stated before that at the Highest Level, there is no difference between good and evil. Some members become quite annoyed by this notion, and respond with hostility and invective--this suggests I have inadvertantly struck a nerve. I still maintain that not only is there no difference between the two, at both metaphysical and mundane levels, the terms are essentially devoid of meaning. Good and bad are simply labels we place on thing to denote our approval or disapproval. In general, we tend to label good that which serves us, and bad which does not serve us.

Take something as mundane as weather. Fair weather is "good" if you are planning a picnic, but very "bad" to a farmer whose crops are dying due to drought. Take movies--if I say a movie was "bad", all you know about it is that I didn't like it--no useful information has been conveyed. If I say the plot was cliched, the acting was wooden, and the FX primitive--then I have said something meaningful.


I'd say that just because something is impossible to define doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'd agree that bad and good can be used to describe whatever a person wants, making them essentially meaningless, since there is such a profusion of different definitions. However, I believe that the concept and idea of good and evil does exist, and it is largely beyond our ability to grasp it. That's where my version of God usually comes in. One of God's characteristics, in my mind, would be the ability to define and discern true good and evil.

this IS a very, very real evil in this universe, a cosmic reservoir that black magicians feed off of. it's termed in the nag hammadi library, "dark, lustful femininity" and I can think of no better way to describe it, except maybe sheer, absolute ruthlessness & lust

So at the highest level of spiritual evolution......a person could (right in front of you) rape a seven year old, dislocating her hips in the process, and smash her brains in only to devour them, and you would have the same love for them you do for all other humans in the hugfest?

You would not want to judge this as evil, or label them as dangerous, sick, demented, cruel, or unjust, would you? It would only serve to retard your spiritual evolution.

Hell, since you cannot label them as anything, you should let them babysit sometime.

But you would not do that.

Know why?

Human instinct. Human nature. Instinct that even rodents, retards, and christians have.

So the highest levels of spiritual evolution defy every natural instinct a human being has? Why did the perfect creator give us instincts only to get in the way of our spiritual evolution? Why stack the deck like that?

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My answer to those questions?

Its all a bunch of nonsense created to control the masses and used today to sell books.

So at the highest level of spiritual evolution......a person could (right in front of you) rape a seven year old, dislocating her hips in the process, and smash her brains in only to devour them, and you would have the same love for them you do for all other humans in the hugfest?

You would not want to judge this as evil, or label them as dangerous, sick, demented, cruel, or unjust, would you? It would only serve to retard your spiritual evolution.

Hell, since you cannot label them as anything, you should let them babysit sometime.

But you would not do that.

Know why?

Human instinct. Human nature. Instinct that even rodents, retards, and christians have.

So the highest levels of spiritual evolution defy every natural instinct a human being has? Why did the perfect creator give us instincts only to get in the way of our spiritual evolution? Why stack the deck like that?

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My answer to those questions?

Its all a bunch of nonsense created to control the masses and used today to sell books.

I think you're just sick. That would never, ever happen.

It's been said that some enlightened beings might kill because of some greater knowledge they have, but this is only because they've seen through the joke of the life/death dichotomy. However, rape is a completely different case. You're so far off the mark on everything spiritual I wonder why you even bother posting.

So at the highest level of spiritual evolution......a person could (right in front of you) rape a seven year old, dislocating her hips in the process, and smash her brains in only to devour them, and you would have the same love for them you do for all other humans in the hugfest?

.

Jesus would; the Buddha would.

I would not, not having evolved as far as they have.

That said, I love how you people--the nattering nabobs of negativism and nihilism-- always drag out the most extreme, grotesque hypothetical (hence imaginary) example you can think of when you attempt to bait me. It used to be amusing, but after many times of seeing the same old shit, it becomes tiresome.

Maybe once, just for the sheer novelty, you might come up with an example from real life.

That said, I love how you people--the nattering nabobs of negativism and nihilism-- always drag out the most extreme, grotesque hypothetical (hence imaginary) example you can think of when you attempt to bait me. It used to be amusing, but after many times of seeing the same old shit, it becomes tiresome.


yeah, seriously. It's one thing when Rinzai said,


Followers of the Way, if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go.

Those who have fulfilled the ten stages of bodhisattva practice are no better than hired field hands; those who have attained the enlightenment of the fifty-first and fifty-second stages are prisoners shackled and bound; arhats and pratyekabuddhas are so much filth in the latrine; bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys.

That is a perfect example of the divine flame...

But this nonsense about rape is just the product of a sick mind.

Morality is nonsense, what is really needed is a complete liberation from the separative thought structure.

Jesus would; the Buddha would

..................

Maybe once, just for the sheer novelty, you might come up with an example from real life.

How is rape and murder not an example from real life? What fucking world do you live in?

My extreme "imaginary" case has most likely happened (minus the brain eating) and you cite two magical characters as examples of people who do not think child rape is evil.

But this nonsense about rape is just the product of a sick mind.

Heard about it on the movie Felon. Pretty disturbing shit I thought.

Thought maybe it would wake up dumbfucks who like to sit around in their idyllic words drooling in ignorant bliss and actually fucking manage to convince themselves evil does not exist.

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I love how this fucking thread is about the illusion of separation and how good and evil are the same thing...........and you fuckheads jump my shit for spouting off something sick and twisted and perhaps............EVIL.

I have to laugh at your ignorance.

I'd have to agree with ArmsMerchant, without all of the God and spiritual hibbity-jibbity of course.

I'd have to agree with ArmsMerchant, without all of the God and spiritual hibbity-jibbity of course.

So you don't agree with Arms then...taking out the spiritual hibbity jibbity doesn't leave much.

I love how this fucking thread is about the illusion of separation and how good and evil are the same thing...........and you fuckheads jump my shit for spouting off something sick and twisted and perhaps............EVIL.

yr so called evilness is NOTHING compared to the REAL evil the pervades the universe at a much higher level. like I said, yr just sick, as in, literally sick.

yr so called evilness is NOTHING compared to the REAL evil the pervades the universe at a much higher level. like I said, yr just sick, as in, literally sick.

Heard about it on the movie Felon. Pretty disturbing shit I thought.

Thought maybe it would wake up dumbfucks who like to sit around in their idyllic words drooling in ignorant bliss and actually fucking manage to convince themselves evil does not exist.

You are not a very smart person are you?

Heard about it on the movie Felon. Pretty disturbing shit I thought.

Thought maybe it would wake up dumbfucks who like to sit around in their idyllic words drooling in ignorant bliss and actually fucking manage to convince themselves evil does not exist.

You are not a very smart person are you?

I could say the same about you.

I could say the same about you.

Did you just "I know you are but what am I" me?

How old are you?

Perhaps, I was mistaken, and you are just ignorant b/c you are a child and not b/c you are stupid.

So at the highest level of spiritual evolution......a person could (right in front of you) rape a seven year old, dislocating her hips in the process, and smash her brains in only to devour them, and you would have the same love for them you do for all other humans in the hugfest?

You would not want to judge this as evil, or label them as dangerous, sick, demented, cruel, or unjust, would you? It would only serve to retard your spiritual evolution.
.

BP I both agree and disagree with you. I agree that being able to discern good from evil is a very important skill that we are all learning, though in my opinion I don't think that the rapist is entirely guilty. I know you were using a hypothetical example, but think about it for a second, why did that rapist rape the girl in the first place? Chances are it is either because he has a severe mental disorder which isn't his fault at all. Or he has lived a life full of abuse and perversion which caused him to do what he did. For the most part we can't choose what life we are going to lead, we are just put into world, and do our best with what we have to work with. If that rapist was born into a family that abused him daily and tormented him, is it really his fault for raping the little girl? In my opinion people just recapitulate their experiences through their actions, but that’s just a thought, and you can do with it as you wish..

I'd have to agree with ArmsMerchant, without all of what I disagree with of course.

Fixed.

But seriously-- "hibbity jibbity"? Are you sure you don't mean "jibber jabber" or "mumbo jumbo"

I think what the guy is trying to say, and what you guys always want to deliberately misinterpret: is in the grand scheme of things, all things in fact are relative and "complementary" to each other, so really they cannot be alone and are 2 sides of the same coin. No man without woman, no black without white, no life without death, inhalation without exhalation, eating without shitting, intelligent people on a forum without fucking idiots on a forum. Really, you guys only prove the point.

As for the individual who rapes and kills. As hard as it is for any of us to admit, the person is simply following their "karma" which is working as it should (or it wouldnt exist) and there are many forces that bring people to do things they see as right at the time they do them. We all go through this, but some people wish to gain a detachment from the very process of letting "karma" push one in all directions for all time.... In that sense, everything is thumping along perfectly according to the path of actions. As much as we try to lock people in prison or go to war over these things, ultimately, until one has a goal of purifying their OWN mind, it is impossible to end the BASIC force that causes this. What we are doing is putting people in prison cells, locking bodies up and eliminating nothing really. Cops can turn on people, on each other, criminals can become sorry and create good actions. You're just trying to say "so it's okay for someone to rape and kill?!" without looking at the deeper aspect. We tie up a trace of a past action long gone and cannot change the person's mind. This is something natural though, but we should still inquire deeper into our own mind's behavior to understand theirs. We only have a temporary fix but sooner or later we will all have to accept it is ourselves we need to work on to change the outer world, not vice versa.


The causes that bring about a murder sometimes can be so much these people "don't know what they were thinking!". Many forces control many people and none of it is ever permanent. Reality is very unpredictable and we go into the world trying to do our best but there are things that alter that all the time and create a different person. At the base of it, the person is essentially neither good or bad, just a potential to commit many actions and do many things with energy..... How can you say they are not? Good and bad actions are like birds flying in us, while we essentially are a big open sky.

One who is wise would see this and start inquiring "how to see this essence, this basic person, how to see a deeper level of oneself?" and that is the start of the road to real understanding, in my opinion, towards meditation. To be free from delusion, free from bondage, and eventually, free from the physical body altogether, and beyond that; free from the mind and finer body and whatever else constricts one, but I'm not on the level to go that far and say it exists. A glimpse of this is enough to show one that the highest attainment in life ISN'T the nice job, a wife, and a house with 2 dogs. They're nice to have, one should work towards creating positive experiences, but the base of all spiritual practice is to go deeper in understand oneself beyond "good" or "bad" and see that both are impermanent and relative as well, and see that one is never really good or bad forever, so how can a good or bad person even exist? It's a play of forces. You guys can misinterpret this all you want but it should be as clear as day to anyone with half a brain not looking to use cynicism to amuse themselves.

The sad part is really knowing how powerfully such a glimpse has deeply changed my life forever, and for me to want others to also be able to change their lives for the better, to have you assholes come on here and tell me I'm "hallucinating" because I heighten awareness and deepen the breath. You're like a pimple on the ass of evolution. You just don't seem to want to go away. It really is tiring. Every day I find myself growing further and further from wasting time on people like you, just like I dont waste time on people who constantly look for sympathy or people who beam negativity towards everyone. People who just don't want to grow and look inside themselves. Standing at a bus stop, I'd rather look at a tree than most people. The human state right now is so sleepy, and everyone just follows everyone else. People take knowledge for wisdom. People go to church. All they're doing is sitting there. People talk about what scientists say and believe they understand the human mind completely based on outsider's observations.

I'm going to start calling you guys fucking parrots pretty soon.

It was said of the buddha he barely reacted to a known murderer threatening to kill him, and in fact, the murderer instead wanted to change his ways just as people who are obese interact with someone who is very healthy, in shape, and are influenced to change their ways. A buddha would truly understand it is nothing but impersonal forces pushing a man to murder, he has overcome such forces and almost pities the man/has compassion because he knows of such a higher place to be.... not as "oh no he's going to kill me I better please him". But this to you guys is just "hallucinating" right? It's a strong development of a person, the highest, and you cannot even conceive of it so you do not agree such a thing is possible.

It's awesome that you're posting here Fuck.
You are an inspiration to me.

good to see you around as well, old friend :D

I'm liking your thinking Fuck. That said, I don't think we should ever rationalize 'bad' actions as necessary or acceptable. If we do that, I think we destroy the very essence of the duality and complementary nature of good and bad.

I think what the guy is trying to say, and what you guys always want to deliberately misinterpret: is in the grand scheme of things, all things in fact are relative and "complementary" to each other, so really they cannot be alone and are 2 sides of the same coin. No man without woman, no black without white, no life without death, inhalation without exhalation, eating without shitting, intelligent people on a forum without fucking idiots on a forum. Really, you guys only prove the point.

The flame and the shadow ARE NOT THE SAME THING. They compliment each other, and may share a symbiotic relationship, but to suggest the flame and the shadow are the same is WRONG.

If all Arms was doing was saying....."Hey guys, did you know you can't have good without evil".....then I do apologize for thinking he was saying something that........was not this SELF FUCKING EVIDENT!!!

As for the individual who rapes and kills. As hard as it is for any of us to admit, the person is simply following their "karma" which is working as it should (or it wouldnt exist) and there are many forces that bring people to do things they see as right at the time they do them..

See, I dont like to suggest that it is some magical force that makes a person rape or murder.

If I am following your magical Karma trail....then wouldn't the victim also just be getting a karmic payback by being raped?

SO the rapist only did it b/c of this magic force, and the rapee was an unwilling participant based on this same supernatural unprovable force?

WOW.

What we are doing is putting people in prison cells, locking bodies up and eliminating nothing really.

This is the stupidest statement I have heard on totse in at least a week. I shit you not the balls to the wall stupidiest fucking thing in AT LEAST a week.

Good and bad actions are like birds flying in us, while we essentially are a big open sky..

But there do exist good and bad actions? Okay....then Arms is still wrong.

But let me fully understand this little nugget of wisdom here. Are you saying human beings are capable of good and bad things?

WOW.....on what mystical journey did you pick up this little secret? Thank you for sharing this bit of occult knowledge with us.

People talk about what scientists say and believe they understand the human mind completely based on outsider's observations..

Just b/c someone talks about what a scientists says should not suggest they believe they understand the human mind completely.

Come to think of it, I dont know of a single person I have ever met in my entire life who has EVER said they feel they understand the human mind completely..........I have never read a psychology textbook that says this, or anything written by any person who studies this field.

Do people tell you this often, or did you just make it up?

You have the human mind reduced to Karma though right? At least the actions the mind has the body do.

This is you being a pretentious prick. Is that from some bad karma?

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And your post goes on like this.......so much dumbshit and too little time.

Ah well, I think I have undermined your flimsy bullshit well enough and with a minimal amount of effort.

Can't we just cut through all the philosophical bullshit and agree that good and bad are subjective terms?

Can't we just cut through all the philosophical bullshit and agree that good and bad are subjective terms?

Evidently not, since that is essentially what I have saying--and saying, and saying--all along.