is it possible to somehow react butyric acid with methanol or something to make ghb?

It's possible to make anything from anything in chemistry, the real question you should be asking: 'Is this practical?'. You can't just go around sticking different chemicals together however you like on a whim, that isn't how it works. Your post demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how chemistry works and I think if you are really seriously interested in learning start with the basics, take organic chemistry in university, read some text books, etc. BEFORE you go around trying to synth things that may very well end up with you or someone else getting hurt.

To answer your question, it's totally possible start with methanol and butyric acid and eventually 'somehow' as you say, wind up with GHB. I haven't really thought about how you'd go about doing this, but it wouldn't be straightforward, I mean with enough chemistry I could turn my own piss into GHB but that's kind of irrelevant.

I'm gonna throw you a bone, and in case you're actually seriously interested in this subing the butyric acid for GABA [that way you can just replace that amino group, forget about the methanol btw.]

Anyhow, I hope you learn something! Be careful.

I don't suppose that by "methanol," you mean "thionyl chloride," do you?

In that case, no... last I heard ('n I didn't chase it), you'd have gamma-chlorobutyric acid, which isn't going to be GHB until you wash it in lye.

GCB is far more interesting, though. It lets you make things like phenylbutyric acid. Or, GABA. Which, I might add, should self-assemble into some interesting polymer with nothing more than a little mineral anhydride. 'n for that matter, you could even use it to make dibutyric acid ether. God knows what that shit does.

I don't suppose that by "methanol," you mean "thionyl chloride," do you?

In that case, no... last I heard ('n I didn't chase it), you'd have gamma-chlorobutyric acid, which isn't going to be GHB until you wash it in lye.

GCB is far more interesting, though. It lets you make things like phenylbutyric acid. Or, GABA. Which, I might add, should self-assemble into some interesting polymer with nothing more than a little mineral anhydride. 'n for that matter, you could even use it to make dibutyric acid ether. God knows what that shit does.

Jesus JP. You need to build a secret lab and write a book like Shulgin. The world would be a far more interesting place if you did. Lord only knows you could turn Pb into Au if you wanted too...

BTW, Glutamic acid + ClO- --> 4-oxobutanoic acid?
4oxobutanoic acid + ??? --> 4-hydroxybutanoic acid?

http://www.drugs-forum.com/chemistry/chemistry/gaba2gbl.html

If you can't get the chems for this I am going to fuck your skull several times.

I don't suppose that by "methanol," you mean "thionyl chloride," do you?

In that case, no... last I heard ('n I didn't chase it), you'd have gamma-chlorobutyric acid, which isn't going to be GHB until you wash it in lye.



butyric acid to 4-chloro butyric aid using SOCl2 ? I would love to see the refs on that if you've got em !



BTW, Glutamic acid + ClO- --> 4-oxobutanoic acid?
4oxobutanoic acid + ??? --> 4-hydroxybutanoic acid?

glautamic acid won't oxidise (http://www.evilshare.com/2ed7792e-dddf-102b-bdf3-0007e90cfb90) to 4-oxo-butyric acid i'm afraid - doesn't work like that! ;)

The second step would almost certainly work though, using standard reducing agents...

thionyl chloride would give you the acid chloride. its a nicely specific reagent. you would have to crack out some protective groups to turn GHB into GCB using it.

i can't think of any simple way to throw a hydroxy on carbon 4, but I'm probably missing something.

heres a challenge, how would you do it?
Begin with butyric acid and only start cleaving carbon - carbon bonds as a last resort.

glautamic acid won't oxidise (http://www.evilshare.com/2ed7792e-dddf-102b-bdf3-0007e90cfb90) to 4-oxo-butyric acid i'm afraid - doesn't work like that! ;)

The second step would almost certainly work though, using standard reducing agents...

But Strecker said!!!! lol I figured there would be a chance it would work like a standard strecker, but I wouldn't know. Nice diagram, btw.

But Strecker said!!!! lol I figured there would be a chance it would work like a standard strecker, but I wouldn't know. Nice diagram, btw.

Ooops - my bad!

Wasn't thninking about the Strecker Degradation - it should actually work (http://www.evilshare.com/7bc58d10-deb7-102b-81f7-000b6aa2a5f8)...


heres a challenge, how would you do it?
Begin with butyric acid and only start cleaving carbon - carbon bonds as a last resort.


Just as I was putting together a nice quick route, someone goes and does it in one bloody step! (http://www.evilshare.com/6ff3fc52-debb-102b-bdf3-0007e90cfb90)

I think they win...!

Thats pretty awesome.

I couldn't think of a method that satisfied me though. My thinking was along the lines of pulling off the alpha hydrogen with ethoxide or something and maybe do some kind of crossed aldol with oxalic acid or something. of course that gives you a fucked up carbon chain and even more problems.

I'm actually pretty stumped, but it has been ages since ive had to plan out a synthesis so i'm going to forgive myself.

Off the top of my head... (http://www.evilshare.com/99034fe4-deca-102b-bdf3-0007e90cfb90)

Probably not the easiest or best way, but it should work at least...

How would you get the double bond to move? I considered it, but its conjugated with the carbonyl so i imagine its nice and happy.

How would you get the double bond to move? I considered it, but its conjugated with the carbonyl so i imagine its nice and happy.


Yeah, it does look like it wouldn't move, but you can get it to flip out of conjugation - irradiation is more effective than the thermal isomerisation...

Aiight, so I thought about making a thread for this, but I was hoping not to, so-

*bump*

Anywho, so I'm hoping for some spoonfeeding, rather than doing more reading, regarding reducing agents. So, lets say SWIM has a large quantity of 4oxobutanoic acid and wanted to reduce that =O to an -OH. But, for lack of borohydride or LiAlH4, what else could be used? A birch seems like overkill, as well as being fairly difficult to set up, not to mention I don't even know if it would work. What I'm hoping is that there's some cheap, really OTC reducing agent, that I just don't know about.

BTW, idea: Is there any way to OH the carbonyl w/ acids? Like alkenes bust up with some hydronium and get OH groups. Or with H2 gas plus a catalyst of some kind?

Yea, I'm aware this is a little bit of a bogus post, but I'm really hopin' someone can help me out.

^There aren't too many simple carbonyl reductions that don't convert all the way to an alkane, but I found one:

http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/35/2/281.pdf

...and I'll be looking for more later tonight.

^There aren't too many simple carbonyl reductions that don't convert all the way to an alkane,
Bummer.
but I found one:

http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/35/2/281.pdf
Cool. Read through it. I was liking the zinc dust route. Readily available and whatnot. I guess the following question would be "is there a more OTC substitute for GAA?" Then again, I may be getting a little ahead of myself. A key thing I've not thought about is the possible toxicity of the oxo precurser. Depending on how much comes through with the end product that might turn out to be a problem.
...and I'll be looking for more later tonight.
Neat. I'm going to try and do the same.

EDIT: Did some reading, and wow, turned up some shit. 4-oxobutanoic acid is AKA Succinic semialdehyde. It, in and of itself might partially metabolize to GHB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succinic_semialdehyde_dehydrogenase_deficiency
and is related as such: http://www.ceri.com/ghb-a67.htm

As for some other random health effects, I'll do more reading eventually, but considering that MSG ($6/kilo) is just some muriatic acid and a spot of bleach away from this stuff, I'd say that's something to start on.

Also, I mentioned before about NaBH4 being not OTC enough, but according to http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/VirtualText/aldket1.htm#rx2a it would perfectly do the trick. So, assuming one can set up an NaOH cell (for metal Na) then combining it with Boric acid (roach killer or something, sold in big bottles at dollar stores nation wide) and MeOH (heet ice removal shit or something like that), according to http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:1blurJp7gk8J:www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/review_chemical_processes.pdf+manufacture+Sodium+b orohydride&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us that would do the trick. Though, that source isn't very descriptive, so there might be (and probably is) more to it.

Cool. Read through it. I was liking the zinc dust route. Readily available and whatnot. I guess the following question would be "is there a more OTC substitute for GAA?" Then again, I may be getting a little ahead of myself. A key thing I've not thought about is the possible toxicity of the oxo precurser. Depending on how much comes through with the end product that might turn out to be a problem.

Neat. I'm going to try and do the same.

EDIT: Did some reading, and wow, turned up some shit. 4-oxobutanoic acid is AKA Succinic semialdehyde. It, in and of itself might partially metabolize to GHB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succinic_semialdehyde_dehydrogenase_deficiency
and is related as such: http://www.ceri.com/ghb-a67.htm
It only will metabolize to GHB if you have that disorder, otherwise it metabolizes to succinic acid, which is not harmful at all (but not very useful either).

Also, I mentioned before about NaBH4 being not OTC enough, but according to http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/VirtualText/aldket1.htm#rx2a it would perfectly do the trick. So, assuming one can set up an NaOH cell (for metal Na) then combining it with Boric acid (roach killer or something, sold in big bottles at dollar stores nation wide) and MeOH (heet ice removal shit or something like that), according to http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:1blurJp7gk8J:www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/review_chemical_processes.pdf+manufacture+Sodium+b orohydride&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us that would do the trick. Though, that source isn't very descriptive, so there might be (and probably is) more to it.

Did I just hear borohydride from raid? Sounds like too much work, IMO, but if you do your homework and follow through on each of the steps you could have your own borohydride factory producing this shit for just a few dollars a gram. I'd do it but I am way too busy with other matters right now.

It only will metabolize to GHB if you have that disorder, otherwise it metabolizes to succinic acid, which is not harmful at all (but not very useful either).
At least it's not toxic.
Did I just hear borohydride from raid? Sounds like too much work, IMO, but if you do your homework and follow through on each of the steps you could have your own borohydride factory producing this shit for just a few dollars a gram. I'd do it but I am way too busy with other matters right now.
Oy, I have too much shit on my plate as well. I will do what I can. Also, I need to do reading on strecker so as not to oxidize the shit outa the Glu. Also, getting rid of impurities in homemade borohydride as well as reduction byproducts. Could be more shit than it's worth. Who knows, but I'll do research eventually.