http://net-burst.net/hot/god.htm

This link has logical arguments and sound rational ground about the existence of God...

Discuss...

I read the first page and there were zero explicit arguments for god. It was just rambling in poor English. Maybe you could post a specific argument that caught you as persuasive.

http://net-burst.net/hot/god.htm

This link has logical arguments and sound rational ground about the existence of God...

Discuss...


I pointed out your problems in the post....

Frog + Princess’s kiss = Handsome Prince (fairy tale)

Frog + Chance + Millions of years = Handsome Prince (science)

LOL, they compare science to a fairy tale, yet it goes on to say there are alternate dimensions and universes, which were infact theorised by a SCIENTIST. FFS i hate religious sites that say their so good, and they dont need science, yet if it wasnt for science, they couldnt print their religious shit, or put it on the web.

The cost of becoming a Christian is so enormous that it is exceeded only by the benefits

haha i even said a few months ago it's just a scam. And this site backs up my theory.

That’s what many religions teach, so you have nothing to lose by ignoring them and concentrating on Jesus, who declared that if you don’t surrender to him, you have everything to lose. (John 14:6; Acts 4:10-12)

Could you take this as a threat and attack the church? Owell, it explains the crusades.

Thou shalt not kill

Doesnt explain the crusades.....

Funny....i took all this from that site.

How can something thats supposed to be "law" for christians, contradict itself so many times?

tl/dr; Religion is bogus

Here's the premise of the website:

Overview: Topics touched include exploitation, money, ecology, war, racism, sexism, homophobia, pain and suffering, science, genetics, politics, atheism, hypocrisy, escapism, paganism, Hinduism, Hare Krishnas, vegetarianism, near-death experiences (NDEs) and hell. The focus, however, is on facts, arguments and scandals that give Bible believers nightmares.

Fyi for anyone reading it. Still, it seems very sophomoric.

This link has logical arguments and sound rational ground about the existence of God...

Liar...

Here is a logical argument that google is god

http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html

Google is potentially immortal. She cannot be considered a physical being such as ourselves. Her Algorithms are spread out across many servers; if any of which were taken down or damaged, another would undoubtedly take its place. Google can theoretically last forever

Anyone remember Terminator 3?

Here is a logical argument that google is god

http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html

Haha!

Here is a logical argument that google is god

http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html

That is funny because the internet is pretty much like a man made æther.
As one must learn to use their computer and the web to access the infinite potential of Google, so must man learn to control his forgotten sensory organ, or "formative force body" as Rudolf Steiner calls it (http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA009/English/GA009_c01_4.html).

The right thought is impossible in logic
Fullness appears empty but works nonetheless
Perfection appears broken but works nonetheless

^
Various lines from the Way of Living Truth (Tao te Ching)

^Good stuff, to which I would add something from the Huna Principles:
Effectiveness is the measure of truth.

God weeps. No one in a lifetime has been so spurned, so misunderstood, so much hated without cause as God is every moment of every day by millions of people

Without cause? Are you fucking kidding me? If he's omnipotent then he's unnecessarily allowing all suffering to continue. That's cause enough.

If a parent allows harm to fall on his/her children through inaction, we blame them. Let's not hold an all-powerful, all-knowing being to a lesser standard than the one we would hold a parent.

Without cause? Are you fucking kidding me? If he's omnipotent then he's unnecessarily allowing all suffering to continue. That's cause enough.

If a parent allows harm to fall on his/her children through inaction, we blame them. Let's not hold an all-powerful, all-knowing being to a lesser standard than the one we would hold a parent.

Just Hypothetically-

If our soul is immortal, and that god is all knowing, and all powerful, you dont think he might see something that you, with a [currently] mortal perception, dont?

From your perspective letting human kind figure out the conflict of the universe for themselves might look like a bad thing, but from a all knowing perspective you dont think that 'god' might see something you dont?

Except that can easily be dismissed due to omnipotence. I would have that limited perception unnecessarily - since he can imbue me and any other living being with any perception he wants- so he would still be dooming me to a life in which I unnecessarily perceive suffering. He can make me "see" exactly what he sees.


Raise any objection to my point you want (call the objection X) and an omnipotent being must posses the ability to overcome X. That is, unless you put a limit on omnipotence and that in itself carries other problems.

I was making the point that from a omniscient perspective you might see that people being born into "suffering" might not be negative for your immortal soul.

Why should god give you something to overcome X just because from your perspective X is a bad thing?

And I was making a point that letting people continue to believe that being born into "suffering" is negative, unnecessarily (because you - by you I mean god - can allow them to see it positively like you do) is still bad.


The rest was me explaining to you how any objection you can come up with for my point can be overcome by omnipotence.

I'm confused why you believe that it is "god's" job to solve all your problems.

Seeing X as a bad thing is a completely human created perspective to begin with(someone on the forum said something like "pain is a part of life, suffering is a choice")
Also, If you were born knowing X was positive thing it would remove the learning experience your eternal soul would go through by overcoming it.

Because of Omnipotence god can solve X, because of omniscience god can see why it is in your best interest not to.

For example, a billionaire has a son. Because of his wealth he could make it so the child wouldn't have to work a day of his life and could have literally everything he ever wanted handed to him on a silver platter. Because the father had grown up in a bad living environment and had to work and struggle to make his fortunes he knows that it would be detrimental to the child to spoil him that way.
From the child's perspective he would not understand why he had to work for anything, because his father is in the position to just give it to him, and would have a lot of indignation toward his father.

The father is very far from omniscient and omnipotent but the perspective of the father is one that you can (hopefully) understand.

I'm confused why you believe that it is "god's" job to solve all your problems.

I'm confuse as to why you would hold an omnipotent being to a less strict standard than a fallible parent.


Seeing X as a bad thing is a completely human created perspective to begin with(someone on the forum said something like "pain is a part of life, suffering is a choice")
Also, If you were born knowing X was positive thing it would remove the learning experience your eternal soul would go through by overcoming it.

1. It being human created - let's assume that's true for the sake of argument, though that itself has problems and just because someone on totse said doesn't mean anything - doesn't refute a single thing I said. A child taking a knife and stabbing himself in the eye is a situation created by the child... yet if the parent knows about it and does not stop it we hold him liable. Let's hold an omnipotent being that is endlessly more competent than a parent liable too.

2. God's omnipotence can make it so you still have the "the learning experience your eternal soul would go through by overcoming it" even though you are born knowing X is good.

Like I said, you can come up with any objection to my point and omnipotence can overcome it.



The father is very far from omniscient and omnipotent but the perspective of the father is one that you can (hopefully) understand.

I understand it precisely because he is very far from omniscient and omnipotent! Bringing omniscience and omnipotence in the equation and your analogy fails.

The omnipotent and omniscient god could make it so the child understands perfectly what the father went through and not have him feel indignation.

So if I understand you correctly, just because you believe that god doesn't reach a certain standard he must not exist(or at least is omnipotent)?

Everything I have said so far can be summed up in the idea, that I am not omniscient therefor there I cannot understand an omniscient perspective.

The omnipotent and omniscient god could make it so the child understands perfectly what the father went through and not have him feel indignation.

I never said he couldn't, I said because he is omniscient he could see why it is in the child's best interest not to, something you or I cannot understand because of our limited perspective.

If you honestly believe that you know how to use omnipotence better than a omniscient being, then this argument is over.

So if I understand you correctly, just because you believe that god doesn't reach a certain standard he must not exist(or at least is omnipotent)?

You don't understand me correctly. I have not said or argued anywhere in this thread that god didn't exist or isn't omnipotent. My point is exactly as I made here:

"Without cause? Are you fucking kidding me? If he's omnipotent then he's unnecessarily allowing all suffering to continue. That's cause enough.

If a parent allows harm to fall on his/her children through inaction, we blame them. Let's not hold an all-powerful, all-knowing being to a lesser standard than the one we would hold a parent. "

Which has nothing to do with a god not existing, but with us applying our view of what's a good cause for blame on a god (if it were to exist) just as we apply it on a fallible and imperfect human being.

In other words: When it comes to blaming beings for inaction, let's blame gods just as much, if not more, than we do imperfect human beings.


I never said he couldn't, I said because he is omniscient he could see why it is in the child's best interest not to, something you or I cannot understand because of our limited perspective.I understand what you said just fine. I pointed out how what you did say didn't refute my point:

That an omnipotent god could - hypothetically speaking since we haven't even establish it's this way in the first place - could see this suffering in a way that is good does not refute a single thing I've said. It does not refute that he would still be leaving us with this perspective of suffering, needlessly.



If you honestly believe that you know how to use omnipotence better than a omniscient being, then this argument is over.That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. At least try to understand my point before you talk about ending the discussion.

The article has zero depth, and will only serve to reinforce the beliefs of the sheep. Thinking humans are safe from the effects of this horrible "argument".

Take for example this...

Everyone is forced to conclude that there has always been something in existence, whether it be gas, God or a full-blown universe. Every physical thing we have ever observed tends to degenerate. There is even a scientific law - the second law of thermodynamics - that states this. So whatever has always existed must be radically different from anything we have ever seen - like God, for instance.

Basically scientific law cannot explain how the universe is eternal, there must be a God. If we are going to use scientific law to explain what the eternal element that "must" exist is....it must apply to God as well. I find it deplorable that the author of the article does not realize this, or is actively deceptive to his sheep like readers.

----

Thousands of years ago this SAME mentality produced by similar cunts went something like this...

Science cannot explain what thunder is, it must be Thor's hammer.

Science cannot explain why I get a disease when I handle dead rotting corpses, it must be a curse from god.

Science cannot explain why the moon wants to eat the sun, and what prevents our sun from being eaten, it must be a god.

Science cannot explain why I get sick from eating pork in a time without refrigeration, antibiotics, educated chefs, god must not want me to eat it.

----

Those are some examples that illustrate my point:

Science cannot explain X, enter God, is NOT a valid point or argument.

There is no more of reason to hate God then there is to love God. I do not want to waste the short life I have been given being filled up with hate, though.

BrokeProphet is correct in saying that "filling in the gaps" with God-glue is not scientific. However, I think the problem begins when people propagate anthropomorphic metaphors and myths about absolute existence as literal and objectively correct explanations of God. Above all the idea that God "wants" things.

There is nothing scientific about claiming God must exist since we cannot explain x. However, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong at all about someone choosing to believe in God. Especially considering that although the scientific process works well regarding relative truth under the assumption of the existence of an objective reality, it is no help whatsoever in the matters of absolute truth. The process is limited to the inside, it has no meaning in the outside.

Again, this is an ATHEISTIC website. Please look at it before you think it is supposed to be a website supporting theism.

Belief in god is irrational.

/thread


"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. "
-- Thomas Jefferson

Again, this is an ATHEISTIC website. Please look at it before you think it is supposed to be a website supporting theism.
Look at it a little more closely. ;)

Again, this is an ATHEISTIC website. Please look at it before you think it is supposed to be a website supporting theism.

Very first thing on their home page:

"Introducing . . .

InterNet Evangelism & Teaching

[NET]

Touch Millions - Save Thousands

A huge website exalting Jesus Christ"

Unless I missed something and you're talking about a different site.

If a parent allows harm to fall on his/her children through inaction, we blame them. Let's not hold an all-powerful, all-knowing being to a lesser standard than the one we would hold a parent.

just to play the devil's advocate.... (or god's, rather)

do we really blame a well-intentioned parent for a teenager who chooses to steal from or hurt another person? who is convicted of the crime? parent or teenager? is there not a time when we cannot or choose not to control/influence/tame others? is god any different?

do we really blame a well-intentioned parent for a teenager who chooses to steal from or hurt another person? who is convicted of the crime? parent or teenager? is there not a time when we cannot or choose not to control/influence/tame others? is god any different?

A well intentioned parent that could have stopped that in an instant but deliberately chose not to? You bet your ass we do. In fact, we would probably doubt that he was a "well-intentioned parent" in the first place.


A parent is not in any way comparable to a god.


As for the last questions, again, they are non-issues: an omnipotent god could overcome any objection you could possibly bring up.

A well intentioned parent that could have stopped that in an instant but deliberately chose not to? You bet your ass we do. In fact, we would probably doubt that he was a "well-intentioned parent" in the first place.


A parent is not in any way comparable to a god.


As for the last questions, again, they are non-issues: an omnipotent god could overcome any objection you could possibly bring up.

imagine a parent who didn't intervene because the teenager needed to learn a greater lesson. parents cannot be blamed for children's actions forever, even though they are technically responsible for their existence. in this respect, parents are very comparable to god. is our suffering part of a "greater lesson" ...?

Except like I already explained the god would have the power to teach the "son" a lesson while at the same time intervening, no matter how impossible you may think that is.



You have not brought any objections that haven't already been dealt with.

very sophomoric.


..yea.. its complete bullshit.

Only reason God Exists is cause enough people believe in him that we create a god in our minds. But there is also other reasons like the unexplained like how did the elements that started the big bang get there what made it happen. Why is the world we live in perfect man kind needs oxygen to live and there just so happens to be plants that give of oxygen everything works perfectly together

But there is also other reasons like the unexplained like how did the elements that started the big bang get there what made it happen.

There are other spiritual explanations for this.

Sorry I have had a lot of computer trouble lately.

Rust, I understand your argument and agree that any normal objection a human being could bring up could be overcome by your omnipotence argument.

I have been having trouble trying to get this into a way I can describe in words, but I think that it is more complicated then that.

Because we have a limited perspective, and "god" has an omnipresent perspective we could assume that he understands the true "meaning" of the universe and life itself, and merely giving man(or whatever intelligent life there is) a complete understanding could somehow undermine this fundamental meaning.

Christianity, or at least some parts of it, have said that we are merely an experience of god. Maybe god is a masochist ;)

You say you understand, yet you give an answer that is already contradicted by what you supposedly understood...

He can make it so that "fundamental meaning" is not undermined.


I'm guessing you just don't want to reach the ultimate conclusion...

You say you understand, yet you give an answer that is already contradicted by what you supposedly understood...

He can make it so that "fundamental meaning" is not undermined.


I'm guessing you just don't want to reach the ultimate conclusion...

...and I already said that what i was saying could be beaten by the omnipotent argument. For all extensive purposes the argument is over, I was just doing a bad job of playing devil's advocate from the beginning.

I'm just saying that if that really is your outlook on the world(and we haven't established that it is) that you should consider looking at the situation more in a "everything is as it should be" sort of way.
But If there are people who honestly hate 'god' for not intervening, and they have a logical reasoning behind it, than they can be my guest.

I do look at it in a "everything is as it should be" kind of way. I don't believe in god.

If I did believe in an omnipotent god, then as this discussion has pretty much established, I should logically keep asking why aren't things as they could be. I definitely should not say "things as are they should be" when that means I'm justifying the deliberate choice of an omnipotent being to let despicable things occur.

I believe in God. This is why: Mankind lost hope in me. I lost hope in me. Churches, shrinks, family, and friends...they said they could do nothing for me. I wouldn't believe in their gods, in their methods, in their teaching, in their love. It was a giant load of shit because the world is just simply too fucked up for anything good to exist as more than a farce. There was no truth, there was no knowledge worth having, and there was no love. I was dead inside; slain by my own pursuit of self. In complete desperation, I decided to give Christ a trial run. I prayed each night for three nights. Each night, this was my prayer, "Jesus Christ, please enter my heart." On the third night, I was overcome with a bright light and overwhelming peace of mind. I slept like a brick for the first time since I was a child. The next day, I was pondering what to do about my life and I fell into trance where I heard a voice whisper to me: "Tell them that I am the Way, the truth, and the life."

People suffer because they refuse to accept that sometimes it's just their turn to have something awful happen. Instead of seeing an opportunity to display the transforming power of living the Way and the tremendous character, peace, and joy it grants the disciples of the Way, they see an inconvenience to their desires. It isn't suffering, it's selfishness. Don't want to suffer? Develop character. Pain becomes more of a blessing than pleasure. It is fuel for growth, fuel for the glorification of God. Blind eyes are opened and it is seen clearly that our struggle is our greatest blessing: it is our witness to God's grace and love that is free for anyone that will seek it.

I came to God with a broken and contrite heart and asked for help in earnest. What no man could do, God has.

I look at catholics and other religions and it sickens me. The site says that christianity is a crutch, yes it is. The only reason people believe this or come to believe this is that they cannot solve they're on problems and need so form of guidance, fake or not, to get through life. Think of how much power the church has, they could tell people what they wanted to do and they would do it. I go to a catholic school and I know about religion we have a whole class on it. One time we debated evolution vs creationism, me and 2 other people chose evolution. And the rest, 18 kids, chose creationism. This is because they were taught this their whole entire life and had not herd other stuff. I have been taught both in the past and I chose to go with evolution. People are so easily manipulated that they dont use the free will they have.

Why is the world we live in perfect man kind needs oxygen to live and there just so happens to be plants that give of oxygen everything works perfectly together

Why is it that caves are the perfect environment for albino blind fish?

It must be magic.

But there is also other reasons like the unexplained like how did the elements that started the big bang get there what made it happen. Why is the world we live in perfect man kind needs oxygen to live and there just so happens to be plants that give of oxygen everything works perfectly together


Evolution, Experimentation and Adaptation.

If we lost one of the above, we would not be here talking about this today.

And many simple organisms do not respire but ferment instead, withholding the need for oxygen.
If we didn't have oxygen, we'd might just be one of those simple organisms right now, asking that same silly question in another way.


As for the Big Bang...

Well, someone belives that it was aliens who set it off, others say it was just the results of random particles colliding and making a cocktail of life.
Some thinks that it was god, and some people even thinks that it was humans.

I think that Big Bang was indeed a cocktail of life, but i don't think it was just random.
I think we are the result of a univers trying to balance itself out.
I belive that there is many other forms of live out there, i don't think its anything like a human being tho.
The chance of them just being remotely close to a human is lol.

I don't see any strange reason for the things on our planet to be what they are today.
We/Life adapted to our planet, not the other way around.

Why is the world we live in perfect man kind needs oxygen to live and there just so happens to be plants that give of oxygen everything works perfectly together

ugh.

it's called natural selection.

go look for a book called "origin of species". it was written in 1859 by a guy named darwin you probably haven't heard of. he has all the answers you're looking for.

ugh.

it's called natural selection.

go look for a book called "origin of species". it was written in 1859 by a guy named darwin you probably haven't heard of. he has all the answers you're looking for.

Darwin never answers why, only how. How is the methodology, the process, the results. Why is the motivation.

Scientific methods can never give an answer to why. Why is beyond empirical evidence. Darwin did an amazing job of beginning the correct answer of 'how', but no man can answer 'why' in any scientific experiment, and any man with the answer to 'why' will be completely unable of convincing another man in the same way he is convinced. Indoctrination does not work.