Can they be used to find any "real" valuable information? Do you condone for a purely educational, and still highly entertaining use?

How should they be used in a perfect world, where the governmnet would cooperate with the people?

Could they have begun human self-consciousness in the physically "pre-human" animal ancestor(s)?

I would say there is real information and learning within psychedelic experiences. But I'd also say most users use too often, and using too often is much more harmful than not using them at all. They're valuable tools to alter the state of consciousness, but many get caught using them in a hedonistic impulse and many never make any real progress with their psyche or spirituality. Not that there's anything wrong with using them strictly in a recreational sense, just don't do so thinking that your flabbergasting theories that you developed over two months of heavy acid use are the hidden meaning behind the universe.

In my perfect world, they'd be used sparingly and carefully by those who cared to explore them, and we'd allow the use of them in psychotherapy. I would personally also like to see the more uneducated and radical proponents of the psychedelic experience shut the fuck up. Take your drugs if you want, but do it in a safe environment, where you don't disturb other people, and infrequently. If you're going to endorse these drugs, know your shit, and have something better to tell people about it than, "They cause you to learn."

I'm not too sure on McKenna's "Stoned Ape" theory, it sounds plausible but it's hardly something we'll be able to ascertain for certain anytime soon, and throwing these theories out there without support is another one of the things I find irritating about the psychedelic sub-culture.

Personally, I'll say that psychedelics have helped me to eliminate the violent streak and the horrible temper I used to have. They've allowed me to look at my own world view through a different lens, and break down mental constructs to better understand them.

Of course, I also believe that we are the larval form of higher dimensional beings and that this life is but a stepping stone in the journey we have to undertake, so you may wish to take what I say with a grain of salt.

You really cant learn from a physcadelic, more like unlock.
Its not like you get satalite radio and download information, the things you learn on a trip have already been there and things going on a the moment. The drug however alters it to have greater meaning, and different understandings.

Aldous Huxley did some mescaline in, I think, 1958 or so, wrote an essay entitled the Doors of Perception, which says pretty much all there is to say on the subject.

The US gov did society a great disservice when it criminalized LSD.

All experiences are subjective, so what's one acid trip in comparison to a 'real' religious experience?

All experiences are subjective, so what's one acid trip in comparison to a 'real' religious experience?

Good point. I think E. J. Gold would strongly concur, too.

You Cannot Deny the Experiences of Others

BTW, totse has a copy of The Doors of Perception floating around in the textfiles. ;)

Weed helped me to see a different perspective of myself that I was unable to see before. It literally opened the door for me. Great stuff. I defiently feel that drugs like those can help you see into other realities and aid in the process of Self discovery.

drugs stunted my spiritual growth. Then again I abused them...

Illusion.

Higher dimensions are nothing more then illusions. People don't know what to call their trips, but when they share and discover other people have similar brains it some how turns into a dimension.

Instead I will ask you questions:

Do you want a different view of life for a while or long term?

Would this better your life?

Is it fun?

Do you mind possibly messing you life up and possibly ending up in jail?



If you answer "yes" to any of these by all means go at it.

There are other ways of having revelations in your life... legal ways. (even like sleeping and inducing a dream by noise while you sleep)

My opinions.

It's a sad day where some people know something others don't because they simply touched a plant a man in a blue suit said not to, with threats and jail time and courts, and every nasty thing one could think of, without a rational, logical, reasonable excuse...just a dead ritual honored by the collective masses for god knows why. It's a sad day when those people went that extra mile, just to see, and have to face a world of those who don't understand and aren't yet humbled. It's sad to see a world where you have stepped out of the woods into the sun and you look back upon millions afraid there are monsters in the sun. They will go to hell if they step into the sun. They will be arrested if they step into the sun. They will be outcasted if they step into the sun. They will be stoned, burned at the stake, hanged, and hunted if they goddamn step into the fucking sun for a breath of some fresh air once in their pathetic, pitiful, wasted, dull, sleepy, boring lives.

It's also sad some people think this is the only way to alter one's state of mind. Again, the mass ignorance is to blame. You hear about christ's suffering, not lucid dreaming or anything positive, anything transformative. You hear about empty prayer and hating satan, not meditation and taming the uncontrollable thoughts that bring men to self sabatoge and ruin... It's a sad day when empty ritual replaces direct experience and everyone is honoring everyone else but themselves. What happens in such a case is you have the "blind leading the blind" and no one has the light. Everyone has a say, but nobody knows what they're talking about.

I don't think anything external should be used as a crutch. Not forever. After all, the truth we all have to face is it will all be gone one day. Whatever means it takes us to accept that realization, be it drugs, be it meditation, whatever it takes to help us realize the highest truths in life...to live in a way to be clear and full of realizations... well, in my dead honest opinion, one life lived in such a way is worth millions of lives lived in foolish ways.

Shame on those who condemn what they don't understand. The only one they can possibly fool are the other blind bats and themselves, and really, there is no gain. What a pain, and a misery for those who have had insight, a revelation, an out of body experience, a mushroom trip, a lucid dream, for they have stepped into a world foreign to the blind bats, and for that they will be feared and misunderstood again and again until we finally grow up as a species. They will be desireless in a crowd full of hungry people, and will be thought of as strange amongst madmen. Only they will truly understand why and eventually will accept no true realization comes without a price to pay.

Very nicely said! Although, the masses are much more then just sheep's and bats. Hell, even sheep's and bats are much more then just sheep's and bats.

I recall a quote from Terrence Mckenna. "Our society values certain states over others".

What is hysterically ironic is that those "sheep" went through the same thing once upon a time. But even then, they would have to go through actual death and tourcher.


I just made a conclusion, our rules are just not enough threatening and life changing to make a modern day jesus.


Hmm I would like to know why people in general see shamans and these new age ideals less desirable?

Maybe people should start forcing others to believe it or die.

You cannot force people to believe in anything. This is a free will universe and that means anything goes. If someone isn't ready to step into the light, then they will live and learn until they are ready. You must give people the space to figure it out for themselves. You can advise if they ask, give hints, maybe bring it up in a convo, but don't preach and never force.

You cannot force people to believe in anything. This is a free will universe and that means anything goes. If someone isn't ready to step into the light, then they will live and learn until they are ready. You must give people the space to figure it out for themselves. You can advise if they ask, give hints, maybe bring it up in a convo, but don't preach and never force.

Funny, Christianity as a whole proves you otherwise... there is a minimum of 3 religious secs that majority flock too...

so why is yours right?

Because there is no structure here and no real thought identity. Believe, sure, in some things, but think about this. You feel love, don't you? That's real, right? No real believe needed, but what is love? You feel emotions, don't you? No need for proof, although you can't really scientifically measure them, except maybe different areas of the brain that fire up when emotions are experienced, but what does that really prove anyway? You have free will don't you? You can choose to do this or that or not do this or that. Not really a believe.

You see how angry people get when you preach what you feel is right? Some don't feel that way, and it's ok for them not to. No believe is really 100% anyway as there is no absolute truth to the universe. There are "more truths" and more delusions as well, but never 100%" this is how it is so believe it or die" kind of thing.

You feel love, don't you?
No, actually I don't.
That's real, right?
So I've heard...
but what is love?
A cocktail of neurotransmitters.
You feel emotions, don't you? No need for proof, although you can't really scientifically measure them
You need to read up on some neuroscience. All emotions can be traced back to chemistry.
except maybe different areas of the brain that fire up when emotions are experienced,
Not necessarily, but it happens.
but what does that really prove anyway?
...that emotions tend to originate from the same place and the same mixture of substances?
You have free will don't you?
No actually you don't.
You can choose to do this or that or not do this or that.
You can choose but you would have chosen anyway, it feels like you're free but in reality it's all determined.
You see how angry people get when you preach what you feel is right? Some don't feel that way, and it's ok for them not to. No believe is really 100% anyway as there is no absolute truth to the universe. There are "more truths" and more delusions as well, but never 100%" this is how it is so believe it or die" kind of thing.

A=A

100%.

b;10543293']Illusion.

Higher dimensions are nothing more then illusions. People don't know what to call their trips, but when they share and discover other people have similar brains it some how turns into a dimension.

Instead I will ask you questions:

Do you want a different view of life for a while or long term?

Would this better your life?

Is it fun?

Do you mind possibly messing you life up and possibly ending up in jail?



If you answer "yes" to any of these by all means go at it.

There are other ways of having revelations in your life... legal ways. (even like sleeping and inducing a dream by noise while you sleep)

you've never done lsd though

My opinions.

It's a sad day where some people know something others don't because they simply touched a plant a man in a blue suit said not to, with threats and jail time and courts, and every nasty thing one could think of, without a rational, logical, reasonable excuse...just a dead ritual honored by the collective masses for god knows why. It's a sad day when those people went that extra mile, just to see, and have to face a world of those who don't understand and aren't yet humbled. It's sad to see a world where you have stepped out of the woods into the sun and you look back upon millions afraid there are monsters in the sun. They will go to hell if they step into the sun. They will be arrested if they step into the sun. They will be outcasted if they step into the sun. They will be stoned, burned at the stake, hanged, and hunted if they goddamn step into the fucking sun for a breath of some fresh air once in their pathetic, pitiful, wasted, dull, sleepy, boring lives.
...

That's a lot of depth...I agree...I think.

b;10543293']Illusion.

Higher dimensions are nothing more then illusions. People don't know what to call their trips, but when they share and discover other people have similar brains it some how turns into a dimension.

Instead I will ask you questions:

Do you want a different view of life for a while or long term?

Would this better your life?

Is it fun?

Do you mind possibly messing you life up and possibly ending up in jail?



If you answer "yes" to any of these by all means go at it.

There are other ways of having revelations in your life... legal ways. (even like sleeping and inducing a dream by noise while you sleep)

I want to see more view of life, this may or may not better my life, depending on how I would use the turn of events and experiences, it may be fun at times and terrifying (still fun..?) at others, I will take risks, (have experienced the messed up aspect and jail aspect of life/ am in it right now).


b;10549775']
I just made a conclusion, our rules are just not enough threatening and life changing to make a modern day jesus.

I see it happening, just not as obviously...

No, actually I don't.


You can choose but you would have chosen anyway, it feels like you're free but in reality it's all determined.

.

Please, elaborate.

Please, elaborate.
I've never felt this cocktail of neurotransmitters that has been classified as "love". Maybe I haven't lived long enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Determinism doesn't make any sense to me. At any point in your life, you can choose to say, "This isn't working for me" and you can consciously choose to do things differently. This is where "enlightenment" comes in. It's deprogramming. Sure, taking things at face value, everything is a reaction to what happened previously, but that's because you choose it to be that way. If you got made fun of in school and now you are insecure as an adult, that's because you let the past get to your present. You can consciously choose to step out of that insane programming if you want to and be free from it, as well as free from all other sorts of programming. Nothing is ever determined (although Karma is debatable) and nothing is ever concrete. If I don't like something, I have the "free will" to change it. Likewise, if you feel you can't change it or go beyond it, then you will be stuck. It can feel like you are not free, but in actuality you make yourself believe you are not free and thus you are not. As within so without.

Oh, BTW there are plenty of people who claim to be modern day saviors, Matriyeya, Jesus, whatever. Most are in the nuthouse and I don't think even Jesus himself said "I am the Messiah here to save you people". He said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Light" but he was referring to the Spirit within himself and within you. I wouldn't go around expecting a savior to come and save you.

Determinism doesn't make any sense to me. At any point in your life, you can choose to say, "This isn't working for me" and you can consciously choose to do things differently.
You can choose but you would have chosen anyway, it feels like you're free but in reality it's all determined.

This is where "enlightenment" comes in. It's deprogramming. Sure, taking things at face value, everything is a reaction to what happened previously, but that's because you choose it to be that way.
You can choose but you would have chosen anyway, it feels like you're free but in reality it's all determined.
If you got made fun of in school and now you are insecure as an adult, that's because you let the past get to your present. You can consciously choose to step out of that insane programming if you want to and be free from it, as well as free from all other sorts of programming.
You can choose but you would have chosen anyway, it feels like you're free but in reality it's all determined.
Nothing is ever determined (although Karma is debatable) and nothing is ever concrete.
You can choose but you would have chosen anyway, it feels like you're free but in reality it's all determined.
If I don't like something, I have the "free will" to change it.
You can choose but you would have chosen anyway, it feels like you're free but in reality it's all determined.
Likewise, if you feel you can't change it or go beyond it, then you will be stuck. It can feel like you are not free, but in actuality you make yourself believe you are not free and thus you are not. As within so without.
Oh no, in my practical life I go about imagining as though my decisions make a difference. I have no choice but to believe in free will.
Oh, BTW there are plenty of people who claim to be modern day saviors, Matriyeya, Jesus, whatever. Most are in the nuthouse and I don't think even Jesus himself said "I am the Messiah here to save you people". He said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Light" but he was referring to the Spirit within himself and within you. I wouldn't go around expecting a savior to come and save you.
I never expected it either.

You really cant learn from a physcadelic, more like unlock.

I think I agree with this statement more than anything else. Many methods for reaching higher levels of consciousness require you to think in certain ways that can be difficult if you've never done it before. Most drugs heavily influence your thought patterns, making them near-useless as conduits, but they can open your eyes when used with care.

For example, when I had a very concentrated dose of Salvia, I was not in control of my actions at all. It was like my mind went off to think somewhere and my body decided to do whatever the hell it felt like at the moment. Not very useful for learning, but it broadened my horizons. The following days were amazing because I began to think about things I had never thought about before. It was a valuable learning experience, but not something I would make a habit of.

If a person is an addict and had many years off of drugs, assuming addiction is a neurological disorder of the brain making this person different from normal people. Could this person safely use a Psychedelic for a spiritual purpose or would the person be jeopardizing his life? or could the Psychedelic cause the person to slip back into his old ways by triggering off this neurological disorder like Tourettes firing random tics into the person against his will?:confused:

If used wisely, then yes the psychedelic can be extremely beneficial. Their are reports of people using LSD, MDMA and all sorts of other drugs to help them get over addiction. Check out the "Ibogaine Dossier".

http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/

Sorry, misread. Psychedelics are not very addicitve at least not in my experience. At least not physically. They can lead to some profound spiritual insights and for that reason, I don't think you have much to worry about about getting addicted to them.