Are We About to Experience the Return of Jesus Christ Followed by Tribulation, Armageddon, and the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ?

Many people, the world over, believe that we are on the verge of experiencing some dramatic events that will greatly change our lives and the course of life on Earth. A number of television programs have focused on predictions and prophecies drawn from the Bible. Belief and interest in the soon return of Christ is borne out by Tim LaHaye’s “Left Behind” series being among the best sellers over recent years.

A great number of Christians throughout the world believe that the return of Jesus Christ is about to occur, any time now – from the next second to within a few years. Jim Bramlett ( http://choicesforliving.com/spirit/ ), a Christian writer and keen observer of world events, says that the evidence for His soon return is overwhelming. He notes eight out of 167 converging, Biblically based clues cited by one scholar. They are: (1) Israel’s miraculous rebirth as a nation in 1948, (2) plummeting morality, a shocking breakdown since the middle of the last century, (3) famines, violence and wars, (4) increase in earthquakes, (5) explosion of travel and education, (6) explosion of cults and the occult, (7) an approaching New World Order, and (8) simultaneous increase in both apostasy and faith. Additionally, a good number of Christians have reported being suddenly and unexpectedly visited by an angel saying, “The Lord is coming very, very soon.” In Luke 21:25-28 Jesus tells His disciples what the world will be like just before His return. Compare these conditions with those of the world of today! In Mark 13:33-35 Jesus exhorts His disciples three times to “watch” for His return.

You might wonder about the certainty and nearness of His return. Bramlett observes that in the Old Testament there are twenty times as many prophecies about Jesus’ second coming as there are about His first advent. Additionally, the second coming is mentioned 380 times in the New Testament. That being true you can rest assured that Jesus will return again. When Jesus ascended into heaven in the presence of His disciples two men in white apparel (angels) appeared to them and said, “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11b).

Starting as early as AD100 a number of scholars observed that from the creation of Adam to Abraham was 2000 years and from Abraham to Christ another 2000 years. Add two thousand more years, from Christ’s birth to the year 2000, and you have a total of six thousand years since Adam. We should be cautious, however, to recognize that our calendar might be erroneous and not the same as God’s calendar, but probably not more than a few years different.

In the book of Psalm we read “..a thousand years in your [God’s] sight are like a day..” (Psalm 90:4, NIV). This concept is repeated in II Peter 3:8. If the 6,000 years since Adam are taken to be the first six “millennial days” of a week, from God’s perspective, then this new millennium, which began a few years ago, could be the seventh or Sabbath “millennial day”. The writings of various church fathers indicate that the apostles and the early church believed and taught this. Viewing the Sabbath, therefore, as a time that belongs to God and is to be observed as holy unto Him, by rest and worship, some scholars think that this new millennium will soon be given over to Jesus Christ’s thousand-year reign over the entire world. Hundreds of verses in the Bible predict an earthly kingdom of God ruled by the Son of God.

Being the “Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6), Christ is expected to usher in a thousand years of peace and well-being for all mankind throughout the world. During this time He will be respected and worshiped like never before as He is seated on the “throne of David” in Jerusalem. In Isaiah 2:3-4 we are told that people from throughout the world will go to His temple to learn His ways and how to walk in His paths. The law and the Word of the Lord will go out from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and settle disputes. He will cause them to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.” There will no longer be wars or training for war. Isaiah 11:6-9 tells us that the animals will be at peace. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall even play by the cobra’s hole. During this time “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

Centuries before us people who understood the scriptures looked forward to the days in which we now live. Some years ago Billy Graham said that if he could choose any generation in which to live, he would choose to live in this one because he thinks this is the one in which Jesus Christ will return. Think about it! Are we possibly living in one of the most significant and pivotal periods of history, when the course of the world will dramatically change?

Does the Bible tell us anything about how this change will occur? Yes, many scholars claim that Christ’s return to reign will be preceded by the “rapture” of His people (the saints). At that time millions of true Christian believers, the world over, will be suddenly and physically removed from the Earth to meet Jesus in the air (clouds) and transported to heaven. Deceased believers will be raised, also, and caught up with the living (I Thess. 4:16-17). According to the Bible, believers will not know the day or hour of the rapture but will know when it is near from the “signs-of- the-times”, as observed above. It is believed that the rapture is going to strike without warning and will be one of the most astonishing events to ever occur. Millions of Christians look for it to happen at any time.

A common belief among many Christians is that following the rapture there will be a catastrophic transition period prior to Christ’s Second Coming, to begin His millennial reign. This period is expected to include seven-years of tribulation (Rev. 6-18) when God: (1) pours out His wrath upon the ungodly, (2) gives special attention to Israel bringing the Jews to recognize Christ as their Messiah, and (3) gets the attention of millions and receives them to faith in His Son. During this time a Satan possessed world ruler called the antichrist or beast will come to power (Rev. 13). He will be promoted by an accompanying beast, known as the “false prophet”, who will perform great signs causing all unbelievers to be deceived and to worship the beast or his life-like image. The number 666 will be associated with the beast. To buy or sell, all will be required to receive a mark (the mark of his name) on their right hand or their foreheads (Rev. 13:16-17). Refusing to take the mark and worship the beast, lest they be eternally doomed (Rev. 14:9-11), new believers in Christ (Tribulation saints) will become martyrs under the rule of the antichrist.

The tribulation period ends as Christ returns to Earth with His saints (Rev. 19:11 –16) and defeats the beast and destroys the ungodly in the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:17-21). Satan is then bound and sealed in a bottomless pit for the next 1000 years while Christ rules and reign over the world (Rev. 20:1-3). Other future events, described in Rev. 20:7-22:21, include: the crushing of a final satanic rebellion; God’s great white throne judgment (of the wicked); a new Heaven and a new Earth; the holy city New Jerusalem which descends out of heaven to rest on the new Earth; and a description of the glories of the New Jerusalem.

Does this information have implications for us as individuals? Considering the very strong possibility that we are living in one of the most significant periods in human history, I say “Yes, indeed!” Now is the time to give serious attention to the message of the gospel and enter into a personal, born-again (John 3:3 - spiritual rebirth) relationship with Jesus Christ. During His first coming He died in our places, to pay the penalty for our sins. Only He, the sinless Lamb of God, could do it. There is nothing that we can do, nor is there any other way, to save ourselves from the penalty of sin and the sin nature that we inherited from Adam. Only through Him can each of us be healed of our sin disease. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6).

Receiving salvation is simple for all that are willing to humbly come to Christ. In prayer acknowledge to God that you are a sinner, confess your sins, place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, and receive Him as your Savior and the Lord of your life. Repent and depart from a life style of sin and self-righteousness and start following Christ. Share your faith with others, fellowship with believers, and make prayer and Bible study a priority in your life. The Holy Spirit will help you live for Christ and experience God’s plan for the rest of your life. You can never be more at peace and successful in life, and in eternity, than in living a life which is genuinely devoted to Christ. Read: Rom. 3:23; 6:23; Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; John 3:16; 10:10; Rom. 5:8; 10:9,10,13; Rev. 3:20; John 6:37.

Consider the following end-time quote from the late C. S. Lewis who as an esteemed professor at Cambridge University went from being a complete atheist to a zealous Christian, and who is generally considered to be the best espouser of Christian apologetics in the 20th century. He said:
"God is going to invade this earth in force. But what's the good of saying
you're on his side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting
away like a dream and something else, something it never entered your head
to conceive comes crashing in. Something so beautiful to us and so terrible
to others that none of us will have any choice left. This time it will be
God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either
irresistible love, or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be
too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie
down, when it's become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time
for choosing; it will be the time when we discover which side we really
have chosen, whether we realize it or not. Now, today, in this moment, is
our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that
chance. It will not last forever; we must take it or leave it”.

We are wherever and however you can imagine we are, in an imaginary beings, imaginary timetable.

Imagination is a process and atribute of the mind. However, the Bible says that we humans have spirit, soul, and body and are created in the image of the triune God (Father, Son ,and Holy Spirit). Thus, our being is not just imaginary. The activities of the mind eminate from our souls. We are physical beings, too. Don't be deceived into thinking life is all an imaginary trip, We are physical, also. Furthermore, we can have a spiritul rebirth, be "born again", by believing on Jesus Christ, turning away from sin, and receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Imagination is a process and atribute of the mind. However, the Bible says that we humans have spirit, soul, and body and are created in the image of the triune God (Father, Son ,and Holy Spirit). Thus, our being is not just imaginary. The activities of the mind eminate from our souls. We are physical beings, too. Don't be deceived into thinking life is all an imaginary trip, We are physical, also. Furthermore, we can have a spiritul rebirth, be "born again", by believing on Jesus Christ, turning away from sin, and receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Something I wonder about in regards to salvation, redemption, and the mercy of the Lord:

Romans 2:10-29

But glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first but also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having a law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, and know His will, and approve of the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he in not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward of the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

(Pardon the lack of paragraphs)

Okay then; if a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, then we know a tree by its fruits. I've met many people that don't outwardly proclaim a relationship of humble service of the unknown God, but bear wonderful fruits in their lives. Happy children and spouses. A peaceful demeanor and general loving tolerance for all their brothers and sisters as children of the unknown God. Am I to refrain from fellowship with these transformed children of God for the sole fact that they don't understand the process by which they were saved? Am I to try and force understanding of the process upon them when they care not how they were saved, but only that they were saved? Is not their service of Christ as good as mine? They know the Master in their soul, and work His law both in spirit and flesh, but know nothing of His name, nor His son's name. Does not Christ Himself say that, "...all manner of blasphemy against my name will be pardoned..."?

Imagination is a process and atribute of the mind.

God only exists in the mind. Along with ghosts, goblins, unicorns, bigfoot, and the loch ness monster, and other products of imagination.

Citing the bible to say otherwise is akin to me citing harry potter to prove talking spiders exist.

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If a soul exists, it should be self evident to each and every one of us.

When I am driving a car, I am aware that my body is in a car, that is moving. Why is my supposed essential self unaware that it is driving a sack of meat with eyes? Why is it, I have to hear about this essential self, from a man who works one day a week, begs for money, and doesn't pay taxes?

Is it to keep him working one day a week, begging for money, and not paying taxes?

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Religion is for the fearful and unsatisfied. It is for the willfully ignorant. It is for the weak emotional refugees of the world. It is a crutch for those who lack the confidence in their own amazing abilities and capacities.

Religion is the biggest form of brainwashing.
Christianity has all their followers changing their underpants about this "apocalypse" so they return to church every sunday and fill up the collection plates.

A person claiming salvation through Jesus Christ should know how he/she was saved - simply by believing on Jesus Christ (John 3:16), calling upon the name of the Lord (Rom 10:13), repenting of sins, and asking Christ to come in to be Lord and Savior (John 1:12 and Rev 3:20). Those who don't know God's Word do not understand the foundation of salvation and will lack assurance of salvation. They can be easy prey of Satan and cults. Furthermore, salvation through Jesus Christ can not be acquired in whole or part by doing good deeds and good works. Salvation is the gift of God, through faith in Jesus Christ alone, not received by good works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5). Also, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me." (John 14:6).

I would not withhold fellowship from anyone who wants it, in that I might be able to help them come to truly know Christ as savior and Lord and help them grow in faith and the knowledge of the Lord. Also, God might lead me to help them in other matters, too. On the other hand, we must be careful not to continually fellowship with those who might influence us to sin and to do things contrary to the ways of Christ.

They can be easy prey of Satan ..

Have to ask! How is it an all-knowing god created an evil sob like satan.? Surely an 'all-knowing', 'all-powerfull', 'all good', deity would not do such a thing? Check the book of Job, Satan first has to get God's permission then kills Jobs family and when that's not enough, he afflicts him with terrible sores. At the end when Job asks for reasons god basically says 'cop it sweet cause I'm god and that's that! How does that make sense?

A person claiming salvation through Jesus Christ should know how he/she was saved - simply by believing on Jesus Christ (John 3:16), calling upon the name of the Lord (Rom 10:13), repenting of sins, and asking Christ to come in to be Lord and Savior (John 1:12 and Rev 3:20). Those who don't know God's Word do not understand the foundation of salvation and will lack assurance of salvation. They can be easy prey of Satan and cults. Furthermore, salvation through Jesus Christ can not be acquired in whole or part by doing good deeds and good works. Salvation is the gift of God, through faith in Jesus Christ alone, not received by good works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5). Also, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me." (John 14:6).

I know these things. But also, "A bad tree cannot produce good fruit, and likewise, a good tree cannot produce bad fruit." How then, can a person who bears good fruits and shows all the signs of following Christ be counted as someone who doesn't follow Christ on the basis alone that they do not know the name of their savior?

I, honestly, am more worried about the salvation, both eternal and mortal, of those proclaiming to be Christians than those who don't. I know many who say they have prayed to Christ, worship Christ, speak Christ...but when it comes down to it, there is little charity, little compassion, little trust. As the passage I prior posted states: "For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision."

True faith produces works; one can intellectually know Christ is Lord and do nothing about it. They have no faith and produce no good works. Even one who knows Christ in his heart yet has no intellectual knowledge of that which has saved him will produce good works as a mark of the true faith in his heart: His works do not justify him, but display that which does.

We are wherever and however you can imagine we are, in an imaginary beings, imaginary timetable.

Yeah, what he said.

The Bible has a lot of good stuff in it--well, enough to fill a 3x5 card, anyway--but it should not be taken too seriously, as it is largegely an obsolete artifact of the Piscean Age.

Religion...

The biggest lie created.

Jesus Christ...

A fraud and a Hoax.

Arageddon...

If we don't stop acting stupid we are going to end up doing this ourselves.

Where is god...

In your minds.
The place where anything can exist.

To put it simple...

Once your dead your not going to Heaven,Paradise or Nirvana. Your dead!
You only have one life... So... Use it correctly.

Dear BrokeProphet (and others readers),

What you have said seems logical to you, but the scriptures say that as high as the heavens are above the earth, so is God's ways above man's ways (my paraphrase).

In response to your saying, "Citing the bible to say otherwise is akin to me citing harry potter to prove talking spiders exist", you need to know that the Bible is not dependent on external validation. It has "internal validity" to anyone who reads it with a true, humble desire to learn the truth. The God inspired writer of the book of Hebrews said, "For the the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to even the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [a person's spirit]" (Heb 4:12 NKJV). The scriptures say that the Word of God is the "sword of the Spirit". A sword is not something to be defended but is to be used! That is why a person who objects to the Bible really needs to objectively and humbly read what the Bible has to say. It is God inspiried! Faith in God comes from reading the Bible. I have heard of many accounts of individuals who started reading the Bible in such a manner (the Gospel of John is a good place to start) and not long thereafter became believers in God and His son Jesus Christ. Approach the scriptures with a arrogant attitude and you probably will not be changed so quickly. God will have to work on you longer and His word will not return to Him void!

Additionally, the writer of hebrews said, ".. without faithit is impossible to please Him [God], for he who comes to God must believe that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" (Heb 11:6). As stated above, faith in God comes from reading the Bible.

If God only exists in the mind, aong with ghosts, goblins, unicorns, bigfoot, and the loch ness monster, and other products of imagination, how do we account for the marvels of intelligent design we see in nature? What we see is consistent with what we are told in the scriptures!

By the way, I don't look on Christianity as a religion, although it is often referred to as such. Christianity provides a way whereby each person may enter into a personal relationship with our creator and become a part of God's family with the assurance of eternal life. Actually, God's Spirit will bear witness with a believer's spirit that he is a child of God (Rom 8:16). I have exoerienced this. Actually, I think the other religions are simply smoke screens Satan has devised to try to hide and detract people from God's truth. Jesus said in John 10:10a that Satan has come to steal, kill and destroy. He has many deceptive techniques and demonic spirits that help him do that. Don't let yourself be one of his victums.

BrokeProphet, I politely and sincerely challenge you to humbly read the Bible for a period of time (start with John) and I think you will be very surprised.

By the way, I am not of the clergy if that is what you might be thinking. I am simply a born again Christian with three degrees up through the doctorate. I have never lacked confidence in my abilities and do not use Christianity as a crutch. I have won a number of professional awards. I worked many years as an engineer and then as an engineering educator. As a retiree, I help sponsor Campus Crusade for Christ at a college near me. You can learn more about Campus Crusade for Christ on the Internet, if you wish. Read their publication "The Four Spiritual Laws".

Whoever you really are God knows. I will be praying for you via your user name.

Leonscusa

ComradeHS,

I agree almost entirely in saying, "Religion is the biggest lie created." I don't really look on Christianity as a religion, although it is often referred to as such. Christianity provides a way whereby each person may enter into a personal relationship with our creator and become a part of God's family with the assurance of eternal life. Actually, God's Spirit will bear witness with a believer's spirit that he is a child of God (Rom 8:16). I have experienced this myself. I think the other religions are simply smoke screens Satan has devised to try to hide and detract people from God's truth. Jesus said in John 10:10a that Satan has come to steal, kill and destroy. He has many deceptive techniques and demonic spirits that help him do that. Don't let yourself be one of his victums. Since God created us humans in His image, Satan in his rebellion wants to drag as many of us down into hell with him (it wont be long for him).

Read my comments to BrokeProphet. I wish you well and pray that you will humbly read the Bible, starting with the Book of John. If you do this with a sincere desire to know the truth, I think you will be surprised.

Leonscusa

Religion is the biggest form of brainwashing.
Christianity has all their followers changing their underpants about this "apocalypse" so they return to church every sunday and fill up the collection plates.

The truth is the truth whether we like it or not God's Word conveys truth to us. God extended His love to us through the redemption provided through Jesus Christ; i.e., "God commendeth His love to us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Rom 5:8). Truth is not brainwashing.

God's word says that "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..". You do it either in this life of your own free will, or you will do so at the judgement with ultimate frear and trembling because it will then be too late - the lake of fire awaits you (there you will suffer eternally in a bidy that will not burn up).

Now if you will open mindedly and humbly read the Bible for at least 30 days (Start with the Gospel of John), you can come to realize that the Bible is indeed the Word of God and you can receive Christ into your life for eternal life, including a better life in this world.

May God bless you through His mercy while you are presently deceived by Satan, the enemy of your soul.

Leonscusa

I don't understand why people are using biblical references to persuade opposers of Christianity.

God was invented because people want to have a reason for why things happen, although it's an extremely flawed religion and is only followed by blind faith.

As someone above said, God is no more real than unicorns. If there even is or was a God, it doesn't mean that it cares, it doesn't mean that it is present, and it doesn't mean there is such thing as life after death.



Tell me, why would God even create the Tree of Life or even create Adam and Eve near the tree if he knew it would be at risk of fucking up his whole plan for mankind. That's fucking retarded. And wouldn't God know that Satan was trying to get them to eat from the tree and stop them from doing so?

And if being homosexual was not God's intention for man, then why would he "create" them? And how are other animals supposed to get into "heaven" if they're obviously not intelligent enough to know not to sin and accept Jesus as their lord and savior, because you know, humans shouldn't be the only animal to have the privilege to get into Heaven; seeing as were all God's "creation".


God is a myth, and Christianity is followed by ignorant sheep, as an explanation for our existence and other happenings. Hopeing that there is a paradise waiting at the end for them for something as simple as having faith.

Even if there is a God, or Gods, I believe it would not want anyone or anything to know what happens after death; for that would take the point out of life.

Man kind is in a very early stage. Imagine your 3 year old lighting matches and tossing them on the carpet. You are going to intervene asap.

I think we are going to get spanked soon

BrokeProphet kicks ass.

That said: I think we should just let religious people be. The way I see it, they are drawn to the Bible in the same way that people are drawn to fantasy epics like The Lord of the Rings. The difference though, is that they have a carte blanche to believe that the Bible is really true without being viewed as strange.

As long as they aren't hurting people, forcing them to listen, or preaching about killing infidels, then I say let them enjoy their fantasy.

Besides, if it does happen to be true, then I guess I'm going to hell, but...that's apparently where the party's at.

Yeah, what he said.

The Bible has a lot of good stuff in it--well, enough to fill a 3x5 card, anyway--but it should not be taken too seriously, as it is largegely an obsolete artifact of the Piscean Age.

Ignoring an older understanding of God is, in my own opinion, insane. While the being it describes the relationship with does not change, it is another showing of how our relationship with that being is changing, and has changed, and is a wonderful starting point for those who are unable to step immediately into the stronger relationships with this being...for example...everybody. I mean this sincerely, especially for those who are afraid of higher unity consciousness due to losing their self (which is often the only conception of a supreme power they have ever had).

Ignoring an older understanding of God is, in my own opinion, insane.

Oh, the irony.

Look, I"m all for live and let live when it comes to religion, but trying to convert or persuade people (on Totse of all places) is futile. Going off of BrokeProphet's example, you might as well try to convince people that witches, wizards, and Hogwarts is real based on the Harry Potter scripture.

In response to your saying, "Citing the bible to say otherwise is akin to me citing harry potter to prove talking spiders exist", you need to know that the Bible is not dependent on external validation. It has "internal validity" to anyone who reads it with a true, humble desire to learn the truth.

Stopped reading after you said the bible has internal validity, meaning it validates itself.

You don't seem to understand the fact that you have zero VALID evidence for God, and zero VALID evidence for the bible being the word of this God, and even less evidence that the magical stories that took place actually happened.

You don't have to understand that all you have is your subjective belief in God, you call faith, and I call imagination, in order for it to be true.

Done.

If God only exists in the mind, aong with ghosts, goblins, unicorns, bigfoot, and the loch ness monster, and other products of imagination, how do we account for the marvels of intelligent design we see in nature?


I have no problem with you believing in Creationism, but don't kid yourself into thinking there is actual "intelligence" involved in that belief system. You see something and don't understand how it got there, so you take a massive leap of faith and assume that someone put it there. While that type of logic works perfectly fine within a household (ie. the coffee cup is on the counter, your brother put it there), there's no reason to assume nature is the same way. Take a look at a tiny tropical island. Where did it come from? You might say "God put it there". A scientist explores and discovers that the island was a result of an underwater volcano.

I have absolutely no problem with the notion that there IS a god who decided to spark life or create the universe or whatever. But assuming that this god just decided to put everything before us as it is not only requires as huge leap of faith, but it requires you to ignore concrete evidence.

Science is based around concrete evidence, so...if you want people to accept creationism as a legit possibility, then people should have to accept any faith-based theory, all the way up to the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Great Green Arkleseizure. It's impractical.

In brief, if you want to convince a person that thinks in terms of logic and concrete evidence, you'll need to use some in your argument.

What we see is consistent with what we are told in the scriptures!

Likewise, biblical writers could have taken what they saw and made up a story for it. Unfortunately for them, they didn't see the whole picture. You can find examples of people jumping to wholly incorrect conclusions all throughout history. A simple, analogous example is "spontaneous generation". Simple-minded people saw that whenever meat was left out, maggots would "magically" appear a few days later. They thus assumed that maggots came from meat. Then, along came a scientist, looked at the situation from multiple angles, and did an actual experiment to prove that maggots came from flies, not the meat.

Oh, the irony.

Look, I"m all for live and let live when it comes to religion, but trying to convert or persuade people (on Totse of all places) is futile. Going off of BrokeProphet's example, you might as well try to convince people that witches, wizards, and Hogwarts is real based on the Harry Potter scripture.

I wasn't arguing or trying to convert anyone. I was presenting my own opinion to see how it stands up to the scrutiny of others. Essentially, seeking feedback that may motivate me to rework some of my own ideas that are not so solidly grounded as to be considered knowledge. It's a fun thing to do if you don't go too nuts when people start questioning your rooted beliefs and conceptions.

Have to ask! How is it an all-knowing god created an evil sob like satan.? Surely an 'all-knowing', 'all-powerfull', 'all good', deity would not do such a thing? Check the book of Job, Satan first has to get God's permission then kills Jobs family and when that's not enough, he afflicts him with terrible sores. At the end when Job asks for reasons god basically says 'cop it sweet cause I'm god and that's that! How does that make sense?

That is a good question. I am not sure I know the answer to "Why did God create Satan?" One thing we are told in scripture is to love the lord with all our hearts and lean not to our own understanding. Also, we are told that God's ways are not man's ways, and as high as the heavens are above the earth, so are God's way beyond man's ways.

Another though that comes to me is that God desires sincere and genuine love from the beings He created. For that to occur we, and possibly Satan too, were given free will - the will to love and worship God or not to, even to rebel against Him. For a while Lucifer (later called Satan) seemed to be the supreme anointed archangel but then he fell when he sought to exhalt his throne above God's throne. We, too, have free will to come to God and become one of His children and to receive the gift of eternal life as we follow him, or to reject the love He has extended to us by His plan of salvation (John 3:16,17)whereby we can be healed of the sin nature we inherited from Adam and Eve.

Leonscusa