Hello folks, as the titles mentions I'm interested in a firearm that would be practical in an apocolyptic ( not nessesarily in a religious sense) world. A weapon that is reliable and easy to maintain but at the same time is a "good" gun.

I can not buy Handguns as I am not 21, and I already own a shotgun, so to narrow my search a little this only concerns rifles. I want a rifle that is easy to clean, but at the same time should not HAVE to be cleaned often. Something with simple parts that easy to take apart, etc. Also something that does not need to be treated super nice for instance its not gonna get messed up if it gets banged around, dropped, rained on, muddy or something like that.

I realize that the above may make my choices limited to not the most accurate, precise, advanced weapons but I need something with decent preformance. I dont know a whole lot about rifles and can really only have two ideas in my head. The first is older weapons like before 1950 as it would seem to me that those weapons were most likely pretty simple and many of them built to be used in war. Also a ak-47 although I dont know if you can get authentic ones like people claim to be indestructible and I also dont even know if these claims are true.

In terms of price cheaper is always better but just throw out there what you can think of and forget the price. And if you know some good pistols that meet the criteria we can discuss those as well, but I unfourtunately wont be able to purchase one.

Forgetting price an M1a scout might be a good buy. .308 is large enough to take down most game, and the rifle is quite battle capable should you need to take care of game of the 2 legged variety. The rifle is slightly shorter and lighter than a standard M1a(which might also be a good choice) so it would be easier to carry.

A Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifle should suit your purposes quite well. Most cost less than $150, surplus ammunition is particularly cheap, and they've been used in some of the most averse conditions on Earth.

Some will crack on the Nagant for accuracy, which, while not the greatest, was sufficient for Soviet snipers in the Second World War.

The damned things can be dropped, kicked, etc., probably won't hurt anything. Most of them probably were treated in a shit manner at some time or other.

Also, the said 7.62x54mm round packs a heavy punch.

Here, read up a bit. Then go to the gun store, there's usually plenty. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant)

And here's an article on the 7.62x54mm ammunition. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54mmR)

For kicks, here's a picture of my rifle:

http://i37.tinypic.com/23mmttf.jpg

It's of the M91/30 variety, made in 1935.

And should five shots not do the job, in close quarters, you can always attach the bayonet.

EDIT: Including taxes mine cost $106.50 and it's in rather nice condition.

INB4 AK!

Wait, spoke to soon.

I think the general consensus is that there's no one standard apocalypse survival gun.

As far as rifles go, there are various opinions. AK's aren't as unstoppable as some people try to make them sound, I hear people post things like "ZOMG YOU CAN DRAG IT THROUGH MUD AND NEVER CLEAN IT AND DROP IT OUT OF HELICOPTERS AND IT WILL STILL FIRE," but that's not quite the case. They are robust, though. They're designed to be used by poorly-trained poorly-supported Soviet peasant conscripts, so they can take a reasonable amount of abuse.
This comes at the cost of looser tolerances, making them much less accurate at longer ranges than other automatic rifles. They're sturdy, but they're also quite cheap, so they don't have the finesse or the precision of other rifles.

The SKS is also popular for pretty much the same reason. Certain countries have better surplus models than others, but I don't know which ones those are because I live in California and my options are limited.

In the vein of semi-automatic battle rifles, the FN FAL comes to mind. It's pricey, but it's also very tough, and performs better in terms of accuracy and ballistics than the AK series, due to its .308 cartridge and, frankly, superior western machining. How simple it is to disassemble I don't recall, but if your average grunt can do it, so can you. It's also modular like the AK platform, so spare parts will be abundant should you need them.

Some people swear by the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 rifles. I don't care for them myself, and their performance, though not necessarily bad doesn't justify their higher price tag in my eyes. Their design is basically that of an M1A (semi-automatic M14) but with a different gas system that gives them worse accuracy. Whether or not those design changes make it more reliable is a matter of debate. I've heard arguments for both.

The M1 carbine, M1 Garand, and M1A (I know, similar names, but very different guns) are also good choices if you're looking for "old but good" designs. The problem is that they're usually more expensive, particularly the M1A, which you basically can't get for under $1000. M1 Garands also have a limited 8 round capacity, which is not ideal for survival applications. M1 carbines are fairly cheap (sometimes), simple, and pretty rugged. I'd look into those.

That's not a complete list by any means. Really it just comes down to what you can handle, what specifically you would use it for, and what factors are most important to you.
I don't know, I'm watching the election right now and the coverage is making me retarded, so sorry for the crappy post.

M1a scout
Is that different from the SOCOM-16?

FALs are ridiculously easy to clean. Push a lever and they crack in half. Bolt carrier slides right out. Should you feel the need to clean the gas system, the primary difficulty is in making sure the spring doesn't send things flying when you twist off the regulator.

The M1A Scout is 18" and generally features fewer tacticool features than the slightly shorter SOCOM 16.

Some people swear by the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 rifles. I don't care for them myself, and their performance, though not necessarily bad doesn't justify their higher price tag in my eyes. Their design is basically that of an M1A (semi-automatic M14) but with a different gas system that gives them worse accuracy. Whether or not those design changes make it more reliable is a matter of debate. I've heard arguments for both.

Whats the mini-14 tag line? "The best damn $300 dollar gun you can buy for $600" ? :D .


I don't know, I'm watching the election right now and the coverage is making me retarded, so sorry for the crappy post.

Fuckin tell me about it! I'm in australia and the shit is on nearly every channel! OUR election didn't get this coverage FFS!

Edit: BTW i'd go with a FAL or M1A, end of the world situation some of your 'game' might be the two legged variaty, I like the .223 and 7.62x39 but i'd take .308 over them every time.

The M1A Scout is 18" and generally features fewer tacticool features than the slightly shorter SOCOM 16.
Ah, thought so.

I have a SOCOM 16. Don't get one.

It'll be great next time I need to clear a house with my navy SEAL buddies, but other than that it's useless. Oh well. Hooray for gifts.

I really wouldn't pick a semi- auto if I had to pick one single gun. I'd pick a k98.
The AK is about as tough a gun as they come, but if you bang it hard enough on the sheet- metal receiver cover they can jam. The FAL also has this vulnerability, although the metal is thicker (At least the Belgian ones do).
Honestly, for an end-of-the world situation, I would suppose you need at least four guns:
k98k, or Mosin Nagant
M16/AR15 or AK 47
Shortgun Remington 870 or Mossberg 500
Browning High Power/Colt M1911 or Glock Series Pistol

The last ones in 9mm or .45 ACP. A guy once wisely told me you don't need any more pistol cartrdges but four: .22LR, 9x19mm, .357 Magnum/.38 Spl, .45 ACP. The rest is just frills and lacing.

I think the same goes for rifles. I'd take something in .30-06, 8mm, or 7.62x54R as a high powered bolt- action rifle , and then skip right down to either 7.62x39mm or 5.56mm. The reason is that the bigger cartridges can be opened up and downloaded if need be by a person not experienced with loading, while uploading a .308 Winchester to the same powers is not easily possible, if at all.

For shotguns, pump actions seem to be the most efficient, tho a double is quite good as well. 12 gauge is the best all-round caliber for shotguns, unless it is going to be shot by a 5'0, 100 pounder lady, in which case 20 gauge would be appropriate.

But take my word for it, a bolt action is the toughest weapon you'll find. Just try to invest in having the barrel chromed if possible, and then all you'd need to do is remove the bolt, clean, and replace, after brushing the barrel a couple of times.

A Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifle should suit your purposes quite well. Most cost less than $150, surplus ammunition is particularly cheap, and they've been used in some of the most averse conditions on Earth.

Some will crack on the Nagant for accuracy, which, while not the greatest, was sufficient for Soviet snipers in the Second World War.

The damned things can be dropped, kicked, etc., probably won't hurt anything. Most of them probably were treated in a shit manner at some time or other.

Also, the said 7.62x54mm round packs a heavy punch.

Here, read up a bit. Then go to the gun store, there's usually plenty. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant)

And here's an article on the 7.62x54mm ammunition. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54mmR)

For kicks, here's a picture of my rifle:

http://i37.tinypic.com/23mmttf.jpg

It's of the M91/30 variety, made in 1935.

And should five shots not do the job, in close quarters, you can always attach the bayonet.

EDIT: Including taxes mine cost $106.50 and it's in rather nice condition.

K31 Swiss is a great gun too. Relatively affordable and very accurate.

.308 can be expensive....in comparison to 5.56x45

Ak is probably not a good home defense weapon (bullet weight)

I was thinking Ar-15 with high velocity low grain bullet..for fragmentation.

These thoughts are based on discussions with well informed individuals however, the decision is yours to make. Keep in mind the AWB and the guns it will prevent you from buying. If you want a gun...get the one you are more than likely not going to be able to get later..first.

I am having to take all of this into consideration at this point in time...not just the election but current events.

Good luck finding that right gun for you.

Jeff Cooper recommends the Steyr Scout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Scout

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(colonel)

Steyr rifles are too damn expensive if you ask me.

Keep in mind the AWB and the guns it will prevent you from buying.

There is no federal AWB anymore. Unless of course you were refering to a possible(and probably likely) future AWB with Obama's victory and a blue congress.

*Takes another swig from his nearly empty bottle of Jim Beam Black*

the good ol 30-30 wouldnt be bad for a back up rifle, easy to grab, pick up and fire, i can pick mine up from off the road fully load it and fire off all the rounds in 15 seconds.

*Takes another swig from his nearly empty bottle of Jim Beam Black*

That stuff is like 2 week old sewerage! You need some Wild Turkey ;) .

That stuff is like 2 week old sewerage! You need some Wild Turkey ;) .

Never tried Wild Turkey, I will have to try it next time I buy bourbon(which is looking like soon unless I decide to go with something other than whiskey).

Jeff Cooper recommends the Steyr Scout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Scout

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(colonel)

Here's is the same thing, but for around $400:

Mosin Nagant Scout Project

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinscoutrifle/index.asp

Never tried Wild Turkey, I will have to try it next time I buy bourbon(which is looking like soon unless I decide to go with something other than whiskey).

I will have to jump on the bandwagon as I've never tried it either, and do drink Jim Beam. Then again, I also drink Jack Daniel's, Evan Williams, Johnny Walker, and Maker's Mark as far as whiskey goes.

I will have to jump on the bandwagon as I've never tried it either, and do drink Jim Beam. Then again, I also drink Jack Daniel's, Evan Williams, Johnny Walker, and Maker's Mark as far as whiskey goes.
Maker's Mark is fucking win all the way. Walker is Scotch, and while the black label is good, I prefer single malts myself. I'm planning on visiting the Maker's distillery come spring, it's only a couple hours drive away from great fishing and Mammoth Cave, too. Mini-vacation. :cool:

Love Irish and Bourbon whiskey, not too big a fan of Canadian and absolutely adore single-malt Scotch.

Thanks you all very much for all the replies and once I have a little more time I plan to fully reasearch all the rifles you all mentioned. I may for now end up going with something on the cheaper side such as an older bolt action rifle for now just to save some money and then save up for a better weapon in the future.

Out of curiousity how much can you buy an ak-47 for? If its less than 500 I might just buy that instead and buy another rifle later and fit that one with a scope.

Thank you all.

Oh and on a random note, if our new congress/senate/president did want to reinstate a new "AWB" how much time at the least, do I have to purchase these devil weapons before it becomes illegal? Jan? 6 months? Year? Not likely?

Unless prices have already jumped due to last night's election, you can get a very serviceable AK for $400. You can get a Saiga for less than that, and with some extra parts and a bit of tinkering you can have a rather nice AK for a bit more.

Oh and on a random note, if our new congress/senate/president did want to reinstate a new "AWB" how much time at the least, do I have to purchase these devil weapons before it becomes illegal? Jan? 6 months? Year? Not likely?

AK 350-400 as mentioned unless prices jumped.

The average time a bill takes from conception to law is about 9 months, if passed.

I have some Maker's Mark right here, next to a bottle of half-finished Evan Williams and a full handle of Jack Daniel's. I also have a little sample of Crown Royal.

I will have to jump on the bandwagon as I've never tried it either, and do drink Jim Beam. Then again, I also drink Jack Daniel's, Evan Williams, Johnny Walker, and Maker's Mark as far as whiskey goes.

Wild turkey has more of a charred oak taste to it (Probably because it bottled at close to "Barrel-Proof"), WHen you try it you'll probably never drink beam again. Jacks is good and i'm a big fan of Johnny Walker black, but the red label does nothing for me. Don't recall ever seeing the other two.

Wild turkey has more of a charred oak taste to it (Probably because it bottled at close to "Barrel-Proof"), WHen you try it you'll probably never drink beam again. Jacks is good and i'm a big fan of Johnny Walker black, but the red label does nothing for me. Don't recall ever seeing the other two.
Never seen Maker's Mark? Shame, shame; insofar as I'm concerned it's the best damned bourbon available.

Evan Williams belongs to the Heaven Hill family of brands which includes Elijah Craig, Old Fitzgerald, and the Heaven Hill label itself.

And should five shots not do the job, in close quarters, you can always attach the bayonet.

EDIT: Including taxes mine cost $106.50 and it's in rather nice condition.

That would be highly unpractical in close quarters, and considering most of the bolts are straight handle and very sticky after one shot you would need to make the first shot count. With the straight bolt handle and weird shaped stock i have noticed you have to bring the rifle down from the aiming potsition to operate the action.

If you want to go the akm/ak route get a saiga.
They have it chambered in:
For closer quarterss
12ga
20ga
410ga? maybe its .410 i dont remeber.

For longer range
.308
.223
.7.62x39

End of the world guns?

AK- for when I cant find 6.8, or order any more ultima lube.

9mm pistol- again, for when I need ammo.

.22lr pistol or rifle- for hunting food.

There, Im done. No, Im not worried about end of the world behind enemy lines sniper duels. Fun to ponder about, though.

End of the world guns?

AK- for when I cant find 6.8, or order any more ultima lube.



.
The problem I have with 7.62x39 is that it is primarily imported and the domestic stuff is very expensive. In an end of the world/country scenario import of 7.62x39 would cease and dry up.
The common rounds like .22,12ga,.223,.9mm, and .308 and also the NATO equivlents will be much more availible.

AK-47's range/accuracy didnt matter in stalingrad when your fighting at less then 50m(ie. house to house, street to street).

Sawn off 12 gauge
44 or 357 mag revolver
A lightweight rifle in 30-06 or .308win

If you do it right, you should be able to pack all three, and handle pretty much any situation you would use a gun for.

Sawing off the shotgun would make it next to worthless to me.

The revolver would be difficult to service if you needed spare parts, to correct timing, or just to keep spinning after 250-300 round without cleaning, and....

A light .308 would be annoying to shoot. And carry ammo for, given you're toting 3 guns and ammo for all.

Who cares how old you are and how much the gun costs. If this was during the end of the world just loot all the shit you can. Personally though, although I know nothing about guns, I would get something that's bolt-action. For some reason I just love bolt-action rifles.

Sawing off the shotgun would make it next to worthless to me.

The revolver would be difficult to service if you needed spare parts, to correct timing, or just to keep spinning after 250-300 round without cleaning, and....

A light .308 would be annoying to shoot. And carry ammo for, given you're toting 3 guns and ammo for all.

Depends what you're using the shotgun for. A shotgun is a versatile tool/weapon to keep around. I do agree something with a choke is better. Perhaps you would be better off with swappable chokes, and maybe even a folding stock.

You would probably use the pistol very rarely anyways, and a basic cleaning kit isn't a big burden.

I agree with you there, but it's kind of a tradeoff. A heavy rifle is annoying to pack around. If you're some nomadic lone survivalist who is constantly afoot, you're most likely going to do more packing than shooting.

AK-47's range/accuracy didnt matter in stalingrad when your fighting at less then 50m(ie. house to house, street to street).
They used ak47's in Stalingrad?:rolleyes:

They used ak47's in Stalingrad?:rolleyes:

Lol I was thinking that. Weren't they made around 1970 ? Just a complete guess. Maybe 1970 - 1980. I'll look it up.

I was completely wrong. They designed it in 1944 and it was used in the soviet army in 1949. The AK-74 was used by the soviet army in 1978. Man I love wikipedia.

EDIT: Just read more of that article. The one deisgned in 1944 was too heavy and stuff, so he made some more until 1947 where he finally made the AK-47.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

Lol I was thinking that. Weren't they made around 1970 ? Just a complete guess. Maybe 1970 - 1980. I'll look it up.

I was completely wrong. They designed it in 1944 and it was used in the soviet army in 1949. The AK-74 was used by the soviet army in 1978. Man I love wikipedia.

EDIT: Just read more of that article. The one deisgned in 1944 was too heavy and stuff, so he made some more until 1947 where he finally made the AK-47.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

The AK47 was made in '47. It heavily relied on the designs of the StG44 which was made in '44 and saw limited use on both fronts. A great gun ahead of it's time.

Either way, my problem with the AK47 is that although it is durable as all hell, it is still IMO not a superior weapon to the M16 or many recently made weapons. It is heavier, less accurate, and uses heavier ammunition. M16+ACOG will give you range over the AK as well as being lighter. Carry a can of WD40 and you'll not have to worry about jams. Or if you're desperate for power, I'd suggest the M14. If it is the end of the world, at least in Canada, you'll find a lot more ammo for the M16/M14 than for the AK.

Also, the big issue between handgun calibres. 9mm vs. .45 vs. .40. My money is on the .40. Something like a glock 22/C, the same gun FBI agents get. Or my favourite, the SIG P226/P229. You get a good amount of ammunition that has stopping power slightly less than the .45.

The Russians in Stalingrad were probably using Mosin Nagants.

I think if shit were to come down, the most available rounds would be 12 gauge, 30-06, 270, 308, common hunting calibers like you can find in even the podunk-est of shops.

I think in a shtf scenario, your best bet would be to stockpile as much as you could beforehand, and conserve as much ammo as possible during.

The Russians in Stalingrad were probably using Mosin Nagants.

I think if shit were to come down, the most available rounds would be 12 gauge, 30-06, 270, 308, common hunting calibers like you can find in even the podunk-est of shops.

I think in a shtf scenario, your best bet would be to stockpile as much as you could beforehand, and conserve as much ammo as possible during.

Um .223, .308, and 9mm would be very availible.

This question has been asked about a million times and you will always get about a million answers because there is no one gun for every scenario.

The only way you can be prepared for every scenario is to have a different gun for every possible scenario. In other words, have an arsenal. And ammo to supply it.

It should have at least:

a 12 gauge shotgun
a 9mm or 45acp handgun
a bolt action high powered rifle, preferably scoped
a couple of intermediate semi auto battle rifles

As for calibers I'd choose whatever is cheap and common.

a 9mm or 45acp handgun
I'd take the .45 every time. Obviously the 9mm is every bit as capable of killing an individual as the .45, but anecdotes I've read from both World Wars usually involved American soldiers being wounded by German 9mm rounds, killing their attackers with their own .45s, and limping off to an aid station to either die or recover completely.

Once again, I'll take the .45 every time.

I'd take the .45 every time. Obviously the 9mm is every bit as capable of killing an individual as the .45, but anecdotes I've read from both World Wars usually involved American soldiers being wounded by German 9mm rounds, killing their attackers with their own .45s, and limping off to an aid station to either die or recover completely.

Once again, I'll take the .45 every time.

The 9mm back then could have been a little weaker or atleast had diferent charge and powder and it was likely 9mm ball. The modern day hollowpoints and other defense rounds are a little different.

The SKS is also popular for pretty much the same reason. Certain countries have better surplus models than others, but I don't know which ones those are because I live in California and my options are limited.



I'd recommend the sks too. Yugo and russian models are CA legal. Certain chinese models have detachable mags and are thus illegal.

I'd recommend the sks too. Yugo and russian models are CA legal. Certain chinese models have detachable mags and are thus illegal.

All you have to do is remove the fixed magazine and by the detachables and any sks will accept the detachables.

I heard the chinese sks carbine is capable of excepting ak mags.

Seriously though, look into the saiga, they are decent rifles and pretty cheap. I am not sure if they are calilegal though if that is a problem.

When I was 14, my father and I did a cool end of werld set up. A pick up with:
- A Mosin swivel mounted on the back (anti-vehicle)
- A gun rack
- 1/4 in steel plate on both driver doors and on the cab end of
the bed
- A cow catcher

All this cost $469.46. We got most things cheep, 'cept for the steel, but that was from the scrap yard anyways (the pick up was a gift).

I have since matured. Yet I am still slightly proud of my SHTF truck...

Id have to go with a nice M4 with back up iron sights and BOTH a CCO and hunting scope, because with the rail system its possible to take off a scope and put it back in same spot with little to no Rezeroing so have both handy for different shit. For a pistol id have to go with a Springfield XD .40 or 9mm, I'm not much of a pistol man yet but from what ive heard of them they really good plus have high capacity magazines and I like how they feel. Also Id probably have a decent 12gauge shot gun as well.

The AK-47 although real reliable and fun to shoot, accuracy not that great plus, I really don't like the safety its to much hassle plus I have to use my firing hand to flip it, not to mention ammo is alot heavier then 5.56.

If its completely SHTF situation and there's looting OK, ill definatly be stopping by my local armory, where there are lots of nice M-249s, M4s, m2s, MREs, and other gear you would need, not to mention honestly most National Guard Armory's are not very well protected, they don't have guards, they have a couple supply bitch's that are unarmed and there is usually no ammo so its not like they could defend, not to mention all the Armory's here just have a fence that's it. Plus you could get nice Humvee since they don't use keys to start so. So when the zombies attack if im not called up by the guard you will defiantly see me visiting local armory grabbing a few saws since they also accept M16 mags so got the benifit of high volume of firepower and actually able to find a source of ammo.

Id have to go with a nice M4 with back up iron sights and BOTH a CCO and hunting scope, because with the rail system its possible to take off a scope and put it back in same spot with little to no Rezeroing so have both handy for different shit. For a pistol id have to go with a Springfield XD .40 or 9mm, I'm not much of a pistol man yet but from what ive heard of them they really good plus have high capacity magazines and I like how they feel. Also Id probably have a decent 12gauge shot gun as well.

The AK-47 although real reliable and fun to shoot, accuracy not that great plus, I really don't like the safety its to much hassle plus I have to use my firing hand to flip it, not to mention ammo is alot heavier then 5.56.

If its completely SHTF situation and there's looting OK, ill definatly be stopping by my local armory, where there are lots of nice M-249s, M4s, m2s, MREs, and other gear you would need, not to mention honestly most National Guard Armory's are not very well protected, they don't have guards, they have a couple supply bitch's that are unarmed and there is usually no ammo so its not like they could defend, not to mention all the Armory's here just have a fence that's it. Plus you could get nice Humvee since they don't use keys to start so. So when the zombies attack if im not called up by the guard you will defiantly see me visiting local armory grabbing a few saws since they also accept M16 mags so got the benifit of high volume of firepower and actually able to find a source of ammo.

An M249 is probably the last gun I'd want in an end of the world scenario. Why the fuck would you need 800 RPM when most of them won't hit the target? It's not like zombies understand the meaning of supressive fire.

Because in every damn zombie movie theres at least one point where they are being over run by at least a hundred Zombies, and at 100ft or less I can almost guarantee most of the rounds are going to hit. With the 249 you don't use cyclic anyways its meant for short accurate bursts, but when you have a hundred Zombies coming your way me personally id like to mow as many down asap. Plus if its END of world situation theres other things like Regular people that might be trying to fuck with me. Not to mention the 249 was a personal preference, I have training and experince with it, it wasn't meant for recomendation for just average joe zombie killer. I meant it as one that I would love to have if SHTF.



EDIT-On a very side note, does anyone know if its possible to get a semi-auto version of the M249? Or where you could find out about getting one? Out of all my main guns I would love for my collection 249 is up near the top near a .45 version of the German Luger.

Because in every damn zombie movie theres at least one point where they are being over run by at least a hundred Zombies, and at 100ft or less I can almost guarantee most of the rounds are going to hit. With the 249 you don't use cyclic anyways its meant for short accurate bursts, but when you have a hundred Zombies coming your way me personally id like to mow as many down asap. Plus if its END of world situation theres other things like Regular people that might be trying to fuck with me. Not to mention the 249 was a personal preference, I have training and experince with it, it wasn't meant for recomendation for just average joe zombie killer. I meant it as one that I would love to have if SHTF.



EDIT-On a very side note, does anyone know if its possible to get a semi-auto version of the M249? Or where you could find out about getting one? Out of all my main guns I would love for my collection 249 is up near the top near a .45 version of the German Luger.

The fact remains that in a SHTF situation you're not going to want to lug around an M249 with a shitload of heavy ammo knowing you're not likely to hit much. You still won't be able to keep up your rate of fire without changing barrels. It's a great gun in the battlefield as part of a squad. Personally there's nothing I'd rather have with me than an MAG going on patrol, but if I had to carry that sucker, a couple of days worth of supplies, another couple of guns, a machete, and a shitload of ammo/water, a machine gun would be the first thing I'd drop.

In an end of the world scenario, if you're ever up against that many people, you're literally fucked. If you're going up against scavengers/looters, you alone will not be able to hold out, unless you are very lucky. You will get flanked, and since MGs are useless alone, you will get killed. Hiding with an M14/M4 with a good scope is much smarter. For zombies, you'd never want to get yourself facing a large swarm. Grenades/Molotv work best against a large group, or a semi-auto rifle capable of delivering continuous headshots so you get the most bang for your buck.

If I really had to put time into figuring out a good rifle/handgun/misc weapon combo, I'd probably try and get the ammunition as interchangeable as possible. Ideally, something like Bushmaster ACR would put you at an edge over the competition.

I'd recommend the sks too. Yugo and russian models are CA legal. Certain chinese models have detachable mags and are thus illegal.

All you have to do is remove the fixed magazine and by the detachables and any sks will accept the detachables.

I heard the chinese sks carbine is capable of excepting ak mags.

Seriously though, look into the saiga, they are decent rifles and pretty cheap. I am not sure if they are calilegal though if that is a problem.

Guns arnt prohibited in CA unless they have both a detachable magazine AND a pistol grip, forward vertical grip, grenade/flare launcher, or a couple other things.

So, since SKSs typically dont have pistol grips, they can have detachable magazines so long as they dont have any of the other things. The mag still cant hold more that 10 rounds though.

the sks usually have a bayo lug which is a no-no IIRC.

Guns arnt prohibited in CA unless they have both a detachable magazine AND a pistol grip, forward vertical grip, grenade/flare launcher, or a couple other things.

So, since SKSs typically dont have pistol grips, they can have detachable magazines so long as they dont have any of the other things. The mag still cant hold more that 10 rounds though.

I'm hoping by CA you mean Canada, not California, but I'm probably wrong :(

Do you know if M14s are legal in Canada? They don't have a pistol grip if that helps...

EDIT: Never mind, all semi-auto rifles need to have a magazine no greater than 5 rounds, except for the M1 Garand. Yay?

249 is up near the top near a .45 version of the German Luger.

You do know that the .45 Luger is the holy grail of gun collecting right?
If memory serves there were only 2 made, for the American Army pistol trials of 1908, where the Colt 1911 was accepted.
Serial Number 2 Luger in .45 ACP recently went around for a million dollars in auction.
Serial Number 1 Luger is missing, and if found could bring in nearly twice as much.
So good luck.

Other than the Luger I'd also dream of having some LMG (possibly M249), a GMPG (I'd prefer MG42, but M60's ok), and a .50 cal. Just so I can have an awesome display stand in my office. :D. You know, sandbags, camo net, woodland camo cloth for a backdrop, and 3 large MG's on the position, pointing at the door. Nothing says "keep out" better than that I believe.

A mortar would be nice too. I'm considering moving on to collect heavier ordnance of late.

A mortar would be nice too. I'm considering moving on to collect heavier ordnance of late.

While you're at it, why not just get an AC-130 to really put on the pain?

While you're at it, why not just get an AC-130 to really put on the pain?

Because to be realistic it is very expensive, way beyond my means, and the heavier ordnance stuff is more of a wishlist than a short- term reality.

I'd take the .45 every time. Obviously the 9mm is every bit as capable of killing an individual as the .45, but anecdotes I've read from both World Wars usually involved American soldiers being wounded by German 9mm rounds, killing their attackers with their own .45s, and limping off to an aid station to either die or recover completely.

Once again, I'll take the .45 every time.

Agreed, I have a Glock .45 for a reason.

Agreed, I have a Glock .45 for a reason.
Which model? 21? 30? 36?

Personally I have two .45's lined up for purchase when I turn 21 in January - the obvious M1911, probably from Springfield Armory, and a Ruger New Vaquero, stainless .45 with either 5.5" or 7.5" barrel.

The fact remains that in a SHTF situation you're not going to want to lug around an M249 with a shitload of heavy ammo knowing you're not likely to hit much. You still won't be able to keep up your rate of fire without changing barrels. It's a great gun in the battlefield as part of a squad. Personally there's nothing I'd rather have with me than an MAG going on patrol, but if I had to carry that sucker, a couple of days worth of supplies, another couple of guns, a machete, and a shitload of ammo/water, a machine gun would be the first thing I'd drop.

In an end of the world scenario, if you're ever up against that many people, you're literally fucked. If you're going up against scavengers/looters, you alone will not be able to hold out, unless you are very lucky. You will get flanked, and since MGs are useless alone, you will get killed. Hiding with an M14/M4 with a good scope is much smarter. For zombies, you'd never want to get yourself facing a large swarm. Grenades/Molotv work best against a large group, or a semi-auto rifle capable of delivering continuous headshots so you get the most bang for your buck.

If I really had to put time into figuring out a good rifle/handgun/misc weapon combo, I'd probably try and get the ammunition as interchangeable as possible. Ideally, something like Bushmaster ACR would put you at an edge over the competition.
Actually I have had to carry the damn M249 around, and during basic most of the road marchs and shit we had to do some of the faggot bitchs needed help carrying their shit so I had all my gear, a M249 not to mention 1-3 M16A4s, so I realize how much of a bitch it is to carry a few weapons and a big M249. But in all reality I would much rather suffer having to carry extra 10-20lbs and have overkill firepower. Not to mention in a SHTF situation id be in a defensive position somewhere that has one entrance with lots of food and water so lugging shit around is not a worry of mine.

Like they say its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.


Edit- Yea I realize that Lavared, thats why I had specified which one version, because a regular luger is sexy enough as is but the .45 is like ridiculous awesomeness.

It really depends on what country you are in and what you are expecting to go up against.

SHTF covers many things, so what shtf are you talking about?

Hi
For most people i'd say a military type bolt action would do the job. I know some would say mauser or mosin but i'd go for a lee enfield in particular a no.5 jungle carbine.
As a back up a 45 para ordnance pistol.

Because to be realistic it is very expensive, way beyond my means, and the heavier ordnance stuff is more of a wishlist than a short- term reality.

It's just that to me, a mortar serves no purpose. Even an M60 you could argue has a use, sometimes you need to look like Rambo. But firing a mortar without having a spotter is like catapulting grenades. You have no idea where they'll land, if they've accomplished their job, or how to adjust.

Hi
For most people i'd say a military type bolt action would do the job. I know some would say mauser or mosin but i'd go for a lee enfield in particular a no.5 jungle carbine.
As a back up a 45 para ordnance pistol.

the Jungle carbine is reputed to have terrible recoil tho no?
But it would make a handy scout rifle. Seems to fit all of the requirements if you add a scope actually.

Hi
For most people i'd say a military type bolt action would do the job. I know some would say mauser or mosin but i'd go for a lee enfield in particular a no.5 jungle carbine.
As a back up a 45 para ordnance pistol.

Why a bolt-action when a semi-auto is so much better for the average person?

Instead of the Lee Enfield just get an M1 and you're much better off.

Hi
It does let you know youve shot a round but really its not to bad. I've fitted a no.4 butt with a better recoil pad to mine which tames the recoil and saves the shoulder if you shoot a lot of rounds. Mines also got a scope

Why a bolt-action when a semi-auto is so much better for the average person?

Instead of the Lee Enfield just get an M1 and you're much better off.
Less maintenance and upkeep on a bolt-action, less things can go wrong IMO as well.

Less maintenance and upkeep on a bolt-action, less things can go wrong IMO as well.

Yes, but if shit is hitting the fan, I'd assume that a good rate of fire is necessary.

An M1 can be cleaned easily and will be reliable for a long time.

Yes, but if shit is hitting the fan, I'd assume that a good rate of fire is necessary.
I suppose that depends on what sort of shit-hits-the-fan scenario you're thinking of having to survive.

If it comes to inside-the-house combat, well, I'm planning on purchasing an M1911 and Remington 870, both of which will suffice for such a purpose - however, I'd rather be perched in a sniper's nest, picking targets off long before they reach my door.

Guns arnt prohibited in CA unless they have both a detachable magazine AND a pistol grip, forward vertical grip, grenade/flare launcher, or a couple other things.

So, since SKSs typically dont have pistol grips, they can have detachable magazines so long as they dont have any of the other things. The mag still cant hold more that 10 rounds though.

The sks has a bayonet, and most models have a grenade launcher. The non-detachable mag is its one saving grace. Putting a detachable mag will make it illegal unless you chop off the bayonet (and lug, i'm pretty sure) and the grenade launcher.

Less maintenance and upkeep on a bolt-action, less things can go wrong IMO as well.

Actually it seems I have to clean and oil my bolt action more. And if the bore is not kept very clean accuracy goes out the door.

By M1 I'm assuming M1 carbine right?

By M1 I'm assuming M1 carbine right?

I was refering to the M1 Garand. If you're going for the caribe, I'd much rather have the M2 and have full-auto for when SHTF.

Either weapon is amazing though.

I was refering to the M1 Garand. If you're going for the caribe, I'd much rather have the M2 and have full-auto for when SHTF.

Either weapon is amazing though.

Waste of ammo. Semi auto would be plenty good to get the job done.

Waste of ammo. Semi auto would be plenty good to get the job done.

I have no need for full auto. But knowing I have it is a nice consolation. It's one reason I prefer the C7 to the M16. 99% of the time, semi-auto is all you'll use. Personally, I find 3 round bursts a waste.

But if you're going to clear a room or provide suppressive fire, it's much nicer to have the option than not.

I have no need for full auto. But knowing I have it is a nice consolation. It's one reason I prefer the C7 to the M16. 99% of the time, semi-auto is all you'll use. Personally, I find 3 round bursts a waste.

But if you're going to clear a room or provide suppressive fire, it's much nicer to have the option than not.

Well the c7 is just a variation of the m16. It is still made by colt. So i dont know what you mean by that?

If anything i would prefer 3round burst over automatic in a supressive fire situation. It allows you to be in more control and be more accurate.
i actually like the guns that offer 2 round burst. I think that is perfect.

I think accurate fire even in a room situation would be far better than running in there and spraying. Yes you are right there are situations where controlled automatic fire would be more useful. But I have to make use with what I have and that is semi autos are ost readily availible.

I was refering to the M1 Garand. If you're going for the caribe, I'd much rather have the M2 and have full-auto for when SHTF.

Either weapon is amazing though.

It has been my experience with several M2's that they suffer severe jamming problems. Once per mag is common.
The M1 is far more reliable. I never had one jam on me.

With full auto it is possible to get accurate supresive fire. The thing with full auto weapons is your not supposed to just hold the trigger and spray bullets everywhere, you supposed to use bursts, but if SRHTF you have that option to just start spraying everything.

I can't say to much about 3rd burst because i've only used it a couple times in training, but doesn't seem like it would be to bad.

With full auto it is possible to get accurate supresive fire. The thing with full auto weapons is your not supposed to just hold the trigger and spray bullets everywhere, you supposed to use bursts, but if SRHTF you have that option to just start spraying everything.

I can't say to much about 3rd burst because i've only used it a couple times in training, but doesn't seem like it would be to bad.

Well that is why they made 3 round burst, because they would just freak out spray and hold down their triggers. and be out of the battle because they were out of ammo in minutes. the 3 rd burst does EXACTLY what you described. it gives you accurate supressive fire, and conserves ammo.

And WTF does SHTF even stand for? I always wondered. Or SRHTF?

Well that is why they made 3 round burst, because they would just freak out spray and hold down their triggers. and be out of the battle because they were out of ammo in minutes. the 3 rd burst does EXACTLY what you described. it gives you accurate supressive fire, and conserves ammo.

And WTF does SHTF even stand for? I always wondered. Or SRHTF?
Shit Hits The Fan // Shit Really Hits The Fan

Well that is why they made 3 round burst, because they would just freak out spray and hold down their triggers. and be out of the battle because they were out of ammo in minutes. the 3 rd burst does EXACTLY what you described. it gives you accurate supressive fire, and conserves ammo.

And WTF does SHTF even stand for? I always wondered. Or SRHTF?

Yeah, except 3 round burts were made for the average GI Joe. If you're a 1 man army as you will be in a SHTF situation, it's nice to have the option. Personally, the famas did it best. semi or full auto, and further dividing full auto into 3 round bursts and full auto.

I'm not saying I'm a level 12 ninjasniper JTF2 delta force man, but I have enough trust in myself to know when to flick the damn switch and when not to.

Yeah, except 3 round burts were made for the average GI Joe. If you're a 1 man army as you will be in a SHTF situation, it's nice to have the option. Personally, the famas did it best. semi or full auto, and further dividing full auto into 3 round bursts and full auto.

I'm not saying I'm a level 12 ninjasniper JTF2 delta force man, but I have enough trust in myself to know when to flick the damn switch and when not to.

K back to my other question:
What does SHTF stand for and what does SRHTF stand for?

Well that is why they made 3 round burst, because they would just freak out spray and hold down their triggers. and be out of the battle because they were out of ammo in minutes. the 3 rd burst does EXACTLY what you described. it gives you accurate supressive fire, and conserves ammo.

And WTF does SHTF even stand for? I always wondered. Or SRHTF?

I realize that, but like I said I've almost no experience with 3rd burst on M16/m4. My main experience is with normal single shot for the m16/m4. I do have a bit of experience with using bursts for the M249 but that's a lot different then an M16 considering the M249 has more weight and bi pod to keep the recoil down. Not that the m16 has much recoil, but id imagine 3rds consecutively might mess up accuracy a bit.

BCKPacker answered the other part of your post so yea.

But here is a suggestion for this thread how about we all decide on what exactly this scenario of "end of world" is? I mean are we going with a "believable" scenario, where WW3 happens half world is taken out in Nuclear Holocaust and your one of the "lucky" survivors, or is it Zombie style, and most everyone you know and love(or hate) has been turned to Zombies and your one of few left? Not to mention is it that the scenarios is about being prepared for situation as in you have to BUY these weapons or is there looting going on? Because this might help calm the arguments for whether , rifle, pistol, shotgun, what caliber, or whether bolt action semi-auto, full auto, full out mini gun, rocket propelled chansaw launcher, is best for the situation

and your one of the "lucky" survivors, or is it Zombie style, and most everyone you know and love(or hate) has been turned to Zombies and your one of few left? Not to mention is it that the scenarios is about being prepared for situation as in you have to BUY these weapons or is there looting going on? Because this might help calm the arguments for whether , rifle, pistol, shotgun, what caliber, or whether bolt action semi-auto, full auto, full out mini gun, rocket propelled chansaw launcher, is best for the situation

Well that already happend

zombies=obama supporters

all they have to do to turn the next person into a zombie is say "i like obama," and then the next one is a zombie

I dont think anyone is dumb enough, but i am not condoning any violent behavior towards obama supporters, i am just drawing an analogy.

I realize that, but like I said I've almost no experience with 3rd burst on M16/m4. My main experience is with normal single shot for the m16/m4. I do have a bit of experience with using bursts for the M249 but that's a lot different then an M16 considering the M249 has more weight and bi pod to keep the recoil down. Not that the m16 has much recoil, but id imagine 3rds consecutively might mess up accuracy a bit.

BCKPacker answered the other part of your post so yea.

But here is a suggestion for this thread how about we all decide on what exactly this scenario of "end of world" is? I mean are we going with a "believable" scenario, where WW3 happens half world is taken out in Nuclear Holocaust and your one of the "lucky" survivors, or is it Zombie style, and most everyone you know and love(or hate) has been turned to Zombies and your one of few left? Not to mention is it that the scenarios is about being prepared for situation as in you have to BUY these weapons or is there looting going on? Because this might help calm the arguments for whether , rifle, pistol, shotgun, what caliber, or whether bolt action semi-auto, full auto, full out mini gun, rocket propelled chansaw launcher, is best for the situation

I don't think it will matter much either way. If it is the end of the world and I still have to buy shit, either the vendor is gonna get killed or I'll just say fuck it and spend all my money. What's a couple of grand to be well equipped?

First thing I'm buying is a nice sailing ship. No fuel, good speed, and able to take me wherever I think will be safe. I'll probably end up going to Madagascar. Who's gonna nuke them? And worst case, I move down to the antarctic and live off a diet of penguins.

Hey guys, if the end of the world comes, you can all move down here.
Come to think of it, nobody is going to mind this little country, we have enough land and a decent climate to grow just about anything, there is plenty of water an natural resources.
Just so you know. :).

Hey guys, if the end of the world comes, you can all move down here.
Come to think of it, nobody is going to mind this little country, we have enough land and a decent climate to grow just about anything, there is plenty of water an natural resources.
Just so you know. :).

I'd love that, except I've got a feeling Brazil might be getting some nuclear fallout, which means all of south america will be pretty fucked.

I'd love that, except I've got a feeling Brazil might be getting some nuclear fallout, which means all of south america will be pretty fucked.

Somebody doesn't know their geography!

Somebody doesn't know their geography!

True this.

I live in Guatemala, which is directly South of Mexico, therefore the northernmost country of Central America (save for a tiny tip of Belize).

Its less than a thousand miles from the US, (or so), and we have pretty much most of the same comforts (read electricity, running water, internet, phones, cellphones, food, fridges, toilets, cars, etc.).
The only thing we lack is security and an educated, forward- minded people. :D.

And there is profound social inequality, but nothing like the left- wing groups want to paint.
I should know. Being a rural man I've lived both sides of the deal.

Hey guys, if the end of the world comes, you can all move down here.
Come to think of it, nobody is going to mind this little country, we have enough land and a decent climate to grow just about anything, there is plenty of water an natural resources.
Just so you know. :).

How much does an acre of land go for that has utilities?

Ok, what I was talking about when using the phrase "end of the world", what I meant to convey was a world, or even just your "world" (ex. your city/country) in which society has broken down, there is no law and order its every man for himself. Stores are closed up, majority of population is dying, government dissolves, food becomes scarace, a situation of this type nature.

This could be from war, famine, economic downfall, or any other reason what would lead to to a state of chaos/anacrchy.

This is what I was trying to get people to base there suggestions on, even though the other 50 people in this thread may have different Idea of thier end of the world situation.

The two man purposes of the gun(s) would be 1. Protection 2. Hunting food (obviously supplemented with growing/collecting food). I need the charactieristics I mentioned (reliabilty and easy maintinence) because it may be harder to get these things down in a time like the one presented.

Anyways, thanks for all these suggestions, although Im still undecided.

If you want to put more emphasis on food procurement, allow me to suggest one of the savage dual-caliber break-actions. They come in a few different caliber combinations, IIRC, like 30-30 and 12 gauge, .223 and 28 gauge, etc.

My dad got one of them combi shotguns, it packs a .222 rem and a 20ga smoothbore.

It's heavy as shit and butt ugly but it shoots "true" and is rugged.
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5124/p6090347ss7.jpg

edit: the other rifle is a Rem. 70 in 6.5x55.

Somebody doesn't know their geography!

My bad, I thought he was in Venezuela.

Still, if there is a nuclear war, mexico is getting nuked by the US. They wouldn't want to take a chance of having their land fucked with but have Mexico come out unhurt, ready to take over the USA.

It all depends on millions of different factors, but Madagascar seems safe and habitable, and Antarctica at least seems safe.

My bad, I thought he was in Venezuela.

Still, if there is a nuclear war, mexico is getting nuked by the US. They wouldn't want to take a chance of having their land fucked with but have Mexico come out unhurt, ready to take over the USA.

It all depends on millions of different factors, but Madagascar seems safe and habitable, and Antarctica at least seems safe.

If U.S nukes Mexico, then U.S will get VERY bad fallout.

How much does an acre of land go for that has utilities?

Depends on the region. Maybe around 10K or so.

If U.S nukes Mexico, then U.S will get VERY bad fallout.

If there is a nuclear war, you can bet that there will be a lot of American refugees in Mexico and here.

And they'll be very welcome too. We like Americans here in general, unlike South America.

I'm going to recommend my Swedish Mauser 96 in 6.5x55, just because she's a lovely old gun and I <3 her.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/brownbomber/00005-4.jpg

I might as well whore out pictures of the rest of the girls.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/brownbomber/00004-3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/brownbomber/00006-4.jpg

I'm going to recommend my Swedish Mauser 96 in 6.5x55, just because she's a lovely old gun and I <3 her.
GIVE!:eek:

edit: wait, why an aftermarket stock?

...
You are my new hero. Friend of mine owns a SM '96, 6.5 and it's an awesome piece of work. Damned fine hunting rifle too, I hear.

BCKPacker answered the other part of your post so yea.





Haha, i didnt see that.

Thank you backpkr.

GIVE!:eek:

edit: wait, why an aftermarket stock?
It's what she was wearing when we met.

Argh.. whoever did it deserves to be shot with the said rifle.

I suppose that depends on what sort of shit-hits-the-fan scenario you're thinking of having to survive.

If it comes to inside-the-house combat, well, I'm planning on purchasing an M1911 and Remington 870, both of which will suffice for such a purpose - however, I'd rather be perched in a sniper's nest, picking targets off long before they reach my door.

Your our new helpful, awesome regular... Good job

Lava, how far from the Mexican boarder do you live?

I was doing some "research" and found out that the Remington 700 has quite a good reputation amoung owners and was curious to know what you all think about it. My concern is that it only hold 5 bullets, and that it may be a little bit expensive. I like that it is supposed to be high accurate and that it is bolt action (for simplicity). Is this rifle very "rugged" or durable?

Would I be better off getting a semi-automatic for my first rifle like an m1a or something like that? So many choices!

Would I be better off getting a semi-automatic for my first rifle like an m1a or something like that? So many choices!

Get both. Keep a bolt action for precision shooting / hunting and semi-autos with plenty of mags for whatever else comes up.

Lava, how far from the Mexican boarder do you live?

Pretty far. Around 400 km to the nearest border. A 6 hour drive or so.

Pretty far. Around 400 km to the nearest border. A 6 hour drive or so.

That's nothing, I need to drive at least that long(probably more like 8) just to leave my state, let alone the country.

That's nothing, I need to drive at least that long(probably more like 8) just to leave my state, let alone the country.
Heh, you'd have to drive like, what, atleast a day to leave the country?

Unless of course they make cars that float on water and you wanna go to Cuba. :)

Here it's only about four and a half hours to leave the country, if you're going to Windsor, Canada. Obviously that doesn't include the three hour wait at the border. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Heh, you'd have to drive like, what, atleast a day to leave the country?

More like a week. Keep in mind even after I leave my state I'm still down in the SE corner of the US and several states away from the Mexican or Canadian boarder. Unless as you said I had a car that floats or a boat, leaving the country by water would be idea here seeing as Florida is a peninsula.

Well I guess im luckier then most if there's a end of world situation which would require me to flee USA asap. I'm about hour an half from mexico.

Id have to say I need to make a change to my list of weapons for situation, instead of a saw make that a saw with collapsible butt stock and shortened barrel. Im saw gunner for my unit and we just got our 249s back and man the short little nubby barrel and small stock are the shit. I forgot just how sexy it is to shoot those son of bitchs. We were shooting at trucks and shit out 800 meters or so fun shit.

Yea the SAW is great. Until it comes time to reload, clear a malfunction, get in and out of a disabled vehicle, clear small spaces etc.

The SAW is more trouble than its worth.

and you would empety that 200rd box very quickly.

Reloading is a little bit more time then an M16 magazine but its not ridiculous time to reload and a 200rd box lasts A LOT longer then a 30rd magazine so it actually evens out. Unless your just fucking holding the trigger down a 200rd box can last a little bit. As far as clearing a Malfunction its really not that hard to do POPS(Pull Observe, Push Squeeze), and clear. Also as far as size if you have a full size SAW then yea its a bit more difficult to manuver then an M4 but the Compact saw is really not that much longer then an M4, and as far as weight after carrying it long enough it starts to feel about the same.

Its all a matter of opinion, id personally like to have the SAW.

... and then there is the plastic drum cracking open, and your rounds fall all over uring your movement or, you go to reload and your rounds have fell into the nutsack and youre sitting there like a moron trying to fish the belt out.

I will average 1.5- 2 seconds on an m4 reload. I havent timed any SAW reloads but I would guess its around 15 seconds in the rare chance that everything goes smoothly. On the move? Forget it.

POPs dosent do much for the ever popular dirt or brass stuck in the op rod.

those short barrels are a lot louder and have a lot more flash at night.

And then there is waiting for your SAW gunner to catch up all day during a movement.

Ok. Enough anti SAW propoganda after all, im the asshole that hates the m4 and pretty much the entire Army.

Whoa, don't close off the anti SAW propaganda train without letting me say my piece first.

How about getting several rounds all stuck into the chamber?

How about getting rounds/links stuck behind the bolt?

How about the fucking gas piston fucking SNAPPING?

How about not being able to pull the bolt back and trying to hook the charging handle with the top of your foot like a motorcycle gear shift?

How about its horrible incompatibility with optics and accessories, yet the insistence that it carry every single stupid doodad known to man?

How about the one tracer/5 rounds loadout for the belts, but always having to delink and relink without the tracers because of fire danger?

How about the SAW being to dust and grime as Texas is to cockbites?

How about the legion of inexperienced, intellectually bankrupt kiddies who hold the firm yet unfounded conviction that the SAW is the most magnificent and awesome weapon in the US arsenal?

/end propaganda

M60 time. ; -).

We just need to acknowledge that Browning designed the best machine guns and leave it to that. Even after finally switching to the FN MAG and calling it the M240, it's still basically just a BAR.

Although, I guess the E3 variant of the Pig wasn't too bad. You didn't have to fucking chickenwire the gas system, but jeezus that thing would heat up like a Russian submarine's shitty reactor.

Why not an FN FAL?

Myself wants to say too heavy, but hell, i'd take a G3A3 anyday (because i can extremly easily get my hand on a couple)

Myself like to see it realistic, not any fucking "I WANT A MINIGUN LOLOLOL" bullshit.

G3A3 from the HomeGuard
Win 70XTR from Dad
Savage something combi shotgun from dad

and while we're alredy talking the end of the world, why not equipment too?
First dibs on a Nissan Kingcab, sledge and hammer easy to repair.

Setting tacticool asside for a moment, I fail to see the downside of an M16/AR15. Readily available ammo, accurate as hell, and not nearly as prone to malfunction as it is given credit for.

The two major problems I see with the AR15 have to do with the gas system and buffer tube.

The problem with direct gas impingement is that it shoots the propellent gas directly back into the receiver, rather that using a piston. This arguably will allow for moar accuracy, but it does vent waste gas into the feeding mechanism. The best way to put it is "it shits where it eats". This problem is also compounded in the carbine style rifles where the same power of ammunition is shot, but the gas is impinged from a shorter point in the barrel. That makes it so moar pressure and heat hit the bolt carrier than what it would tolerate in the rifle.

The other thing is the buffer tube. It's a tactical disadvantage to be unable to fire the weapon without the stock. Believe me when I say that shit tends to get broken in the field, and if you have a recoil buffer all fucked up because of a broken stock, then your weapon is not functional. You might say that you wouldn't want to shoot it before fixing the stock anyway, but what if you had to smack someone, or something with the stock?

Conclusion: The XCR is the moar bettar choice of 5.56 semis out there.

l
How about the legion of inexperienced, intellectually bankrupt kiddies who hold the firm yet unfounded conviction that the SAW is the most magnificent and awesome weapon in the US arsenal?

/end propaganda

Ok one last defense and then we can all agree to disagree. If this comment was aimed at me, fuck off I do have experience with the Saw, not just at the range but taking it out in the field for a few weeks and getting it all dirty and still having to fire it. In MY experience I had no problems with it, maybe I was just lucky but who knows I didn't have any problems. This last time I shot the saw I had a few misfires but that was because the person who was issued it before me did absolutely no fucking cleaning at all when I cleaned it later the carbon was fucking CAKED on there thick as shit, and the malfunction was easily and quickly fixed by pops. So maybe you guys have had bad experience with the saw but mine has been good. Also 97% of the guys in my unit that carried the saw while they were in Afghanistan said they really liked it and didn't have any problems at all. Which its the same thing with the M4/M16 there's plenty of people that will swear their lives on the greatness of the weapon and others that will swear their life on that its a piece of shit jamming motherfucker. All I can say is that if you guys had to deal with those fuck ups that sucks and ill pray to god that I never have to deal with that shit especially when I do get deployed. OK no more from me about the saw and how sexy and lovely it is. And I do realize the shorter barrel would be louder but end of world situation id rather have the sexy shorter barrel because zombies don't care about noise.

No, not necessarily aimed at you. But they're out there.

Yes, we keep our SAWs clean. It's compulsory.

Yes, when they work, they work kinda well, but just like your time, the potential return is not worth the fucking effort.

Damn Freelance, you're on a roll dude!

Im seeing these piston operating conversion kits for the ar15s. I wonder if any of these would work on an m4........

I may just purchase an AR cause im not sure the FN SCAR or Magpul Masada are going to be released to the public.

Damn Freelance, you're on a roll dude!

Im seeing these piston operating conversion kits for the ar15s. I wonder if any of these would work on an m4........

I may just purchase an AR cause im not sure the FN SCAR or Magpul Masada are going to be released to the public.

Trust me it will fit onto any AR including military M16's and M4's. Someone I know put that conversion kit on their M4. Illegal as fuck to do but they didn't care. It sounded different when it fired and the kick was different. Of course when he got hit by a VBIED he had to rush to have his weapon changed back to normal so he wouldn't get in a shit load of trouble.

Whats illegal about that, you mean against regs? Did the VBIED blow his gun away or something?

I guess im kinda lucky that in my unit we are allowed to modify our weapons. Nobody has done a piston conversion to my knowledge, but since they dont have a problem with aftermarket uppers and grips and spray paint and all that crap then I may go for it.

The kits Ive found all come with a plastic handguard. SO, does that mean the new operating system wont work with the Knights Armorment rail? Cause Im not giving that up. I have to find one with the m4 bolt carrier too, not the AR one.

Damn I need to get my hands on one!

Whats illegal about that, you mean against regs? Did the VBIED blow his gun away or something?

I guess im kinda lucky that in my unit we are allowed to modify our weapons. Nobody has done a piston conversion to my knowledge, but since they dont have a problem with aftermarket uppers and grips and spray paint and all that crap then I may go for it.

The kits Ive found all come with a plastic handguard. SO, does that mean the new operating system wont work with the Knights Armorment rail? Cause Im not giving that up. I have to find one with the m4 bolt carrier too, not the AR one.

Damn I need to get my hands on one!

They can work on M4 gas systems and hanguards.

It probably depends on what type you use, but I know you could most likely mill your handguard to fit in the worst-case scenario. I've seen it done.

Started reading until about the second page and gave up.

My vote is on anything bolt action big enough to take down a deer.
A .22 rifle or air gun. (not for a deer but small game)
A 12 gauge break barrel or bolt action.

Other than that a bow.

I figure I want as minimal amount of parts in my gun that will break need cleaning or will be hard to find or fabricate if the world goes to shit.

That's why every rifle I own with the exception of my Marlin Lever Action 30-30 is either a bolt action or a break barrel.

And if you're considering a survival rifle for end of the world situations learn to reload rounds and get yourself a small reloading kit some dies for almost any round you can think of and go from there.

Remember all a gun is without ammo is a really expensive club.

Whats illegal about that, you mean against regs? Did the VBIED blow his gun away or something?

I guess im kinda lucky that in my unit we are allowed to modify our weapons. Nobody has done a piston conversion to my knowledge, but since they dont have a problem with aftermarket uppers and grips and spray paint and all that crap then I may go for it.

The kits Ive found all come with a plastic handguard. SO, does that mean the new operating system wont work with the Knights Armorment rail? Cause Im not giving that up. I have to find one with the m4 bolt carrier too, not the AR one.

Damn I need to get my hands on one!

Nah his rifle was fine. You can change your grips, handguards, and stocks. I don't know where in the regs but when it got out that guy had altered his weapon, they were wanting to slam him for it but didn't have the chance because the day he was supposed to have his weapon checked, a the VBIED hit him. I was told you cannot alter anything mechanically on your rifle, only cosmetic stuff. Things like iron sights, barrel, gas system, lower reciever, upper reciever and any of its parts.

Ok so the other day I was thinking about this whole situation and I was wondering where would the best place be to shoot a deer with a regular .22? I know very little about hunting just about rifles, but i know normally your supposed to shoot it behind its front leg or around there because that is a vital organ(heart IIRC). But I think the reason you shoot it there is because shooting it in the head kind of ruins the whole trophy aspect of having it mounted if you want. So since a .22 would have a lot less penetration would you shoot it in the head or still aim for the heart? Obviously you would have to be pretty spot on and probably need more then one or two rounds to take down a deer with a .22lr. Anyone want to clear this up for me. I only ask because if a real world situation happen I guarantee ill have at least 3000-4000 rounds of .22 versus maybe a few hundred rds of the bigger ammo, and im sure id get tired of eating just small game.

Ok so the other day I was thinking about this whole situation and I was wondering where would the best place be to shoot a deer with a regular .22? I know very little about hunting just about rifles, but i know normally your supposed to shoot it behind its front leg or around there because that is a vital organ(heart IIRC). But I think the reason you shoot it there is because shooting it in the head kind of ruins the whole trophy aspect of having it mounted if you want. So since a .22 would have a lot less penetration would you shoot it in the head or still aim for the heart? Obviously you would have to be pretty spot on and probably need more then one or two rounds to take down a deer with a .22lr. Anyone want to clear this up for me. I only ask because if a real world situation happen I guarantee ill have at least 3000-4000 rounds of .22 versus maybe a few hundred rds of the bigger ammo, and im sure id get tired of eating just small game.

Shoot it in the eye or up the nose into the brain.

If you're trophy hunting why the hell would you use a .22?

If you're survival hunting shoot it in the head.

If you're trophy hunting why the hell would you use a .22?

If you're survival hunting shoot it in the head.

I don't care how good of a shot you are, its gonna take more than one shot from a .22 to take down a deer. Not to mention your gonna have to chase it down after it runs off when its not killed on the first shot.

"shoot it in the head" does not imply singular or plural. Which is why I agree. You're probably going to need multiple shots from a .22.

Fact of the matter is, although it certainly can be done, .22 is not a good choice for big game. Go with a real man's caliber. Like .308.

Ok that pretty much just confirmed what I was thinking aim for the head and just try to hit it as many times as you can before it takes off. And like I said in the post if it was a survival situation theres going to be a point where ammo runs down to just .22lr, considering its a lot cheaper to stock up on. I was not talking about just randomly going out and trying to kill a deer with a .22. As soon as I get some money around deer season and someone that knows what hes doing I plan on using my .308. My problem is I don't know shit about hunting and don't know anyone that knows anything, I could POSSIBLY find a deer and more then likely kill it but that is all.

Ruger 10/22 with a Monte Carlo stock. The best shooting and most deadly gun on the market.

Ruger 10/22 with a Monte Carlo stock. The best shooting and most deadly gun on the market.
Oh really?

Ruger 10/22 with a Monte Carlo stock. The best shooting and most deadly gun on the market.

Really? Even more than a M82 Barrett? I highly doubt that, unless your being sarcastic.

I don't care how good of a shot you are, its gonna take more than one shot from a .22 to take down a deer. Not to mention your gonna have to chase it down after it runs off when its not killed on the first shot.

It doesnt take more than one shot, just shoot it in the eye. Only way to get that close though is to spotlight.

Oh really?

Perception sir, no need to get antsy. If it came down to it, mind you, I would swear my life on a semi-auto .22lr.

It doesnt take more than one shot, just shoot it in the eye. Only way to get that close though is to spotlight.

Yeah if your close enough, a shot in the eye at 200-300 meters is going be a little difficult with your sights. Your probably going to say your buy a scope. Well if you spend enough money on scope where you can shoot a deer in the eye with a .22 you might as well just buy at least a .223 Rem or even better a .243 Win.

OK the whole point of the question wasn't lets try to kill a deer with a .22 because we just feel like it. I asked because eventually you are going to run out of your .223-.50cal ammo. Where as its probably going to be a lot longer to run out of .22 since its 550rds for $10 versus 20rds for $10.