there is always alot of bullshit written by journalists about "human rights", the "dalai llama" and "free tibet"

very little is said about what tibet was like under the rule of the feudallists, people were tortured, only the lords and royalty were allowed to own land and it was a backward place where the government gave no shit whatsoever.

but tibet is 25% of the territory of China!
is anyone seriously saying that China should just give up 25% of its territory?

the free tibet movement is pissing into the wind, it will never happen! in the meantime they kick over paraolympians in wheelchairs and call it "fantastic"!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Amlz2Jvro&feature=related

Tibet was not always part of china you retard. Stop trolling. The chinese government is an evil empire like the US government. They'd snatch up all the land around them if they could.

http://images.cafepress.com/product/113526892v18_350x350_Front.jpg

how many chinese people do we have running around telling England to "free northern ireland".

or why doesn't america give back all that land it stole off mexico?

or return the whole of america to the native americans?

Evil empire?! EVIL EMPIRE?!

The Chinese governments foreign policy has ALWAYS been one of "non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries"
the exact opposite of imperiallism.

or why doesn't america give back all that land it stole off mexico?


the white man won't do it.


The Chinese governments foreign policy has ALWAYS been one of "non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries"
the exact opposite of imperiallism.

China has invaded Tibet in the ~1960s and has had a reputation through the millenia of invading Tibet.

PRC trolls are the greatest ever.

China has invaded Tibet in the ~1960s and has had a reputation through the millenia of invading Tibet.


1950's actually.

and before that it was practically annexed by the chinese nationalists before the communists came to power WITH the consent of the western governments.

anyway tibet had a population of 800 thousand people in an area the size of argentina, if china didn't invade it it would have been invaded by someone else in the end.

anyway, China is developing tibet and lifting its population out of poverty, before the communist party came you had to pay to have an abortion, now they are mandatory!! jk jk.

but joking aside, china has done alot for the developement of tibet, the dalai llama did NOTHING to help people.

Boys, boys, quit your bickering. Obviously Tibet, China, and well really much of the world belongs to the Mongols. They were the ones to truly settle the region!

http://chinggiskhanfound.com/images/Mongol%20Empire%20Map.jpg

China should welcome their new Mongolian overlords.

PRC trolls are the greatest ever.

Well? Perhaps he has received orders to post such things from his superiors in Beijing?

Thus his excuse, the common one: "I vus only following orders!"

......

Why the change of name?

fact: Tibet has not always been part of china

fact: the physical territory now called Tibet will never gain total independence from china

/thread

The question is... does anyone here live in tibet? No? Then why does anyone here CARE about tibet?

The question is... does anyone here live in tibet? No? Then why does anyone here CARE about tibet?

There are worst things to care about.

1950's actually.


thank you.


anyway tibet had a population of 800 thousand people in an area the size of argentina, if china didn't invade it it would have been invaded by someone else in the end.


not at the 1950s or whatnot. Arguably more likely earlier, but not by then. And Tibet was pretty backwater and remote. Who would invade them? Nepal? India? Russia?


anyway, China is developing tibet and lifting its population out of poverty, before the communist party came you had to pay to have an abortion, now they are mandatory!! jk jk.


:D :D :D :D


but joking aside, china has done alot for the developement of tibet, the dalai llama did NOTHING to help people.

that is true. The Chinese actually did things to improve the Tibetans, unlike the theocratic shithole Tibet under the Dalai Lama was.. see the below link for more.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Though the Chinese Government is now encouraging immigration of Han Chinese into areas that are not Han Chinese. Inner Mongolia is having issues with being flooded, as well as Xinjian. The Chinese Government is doing that deliberately to assimilate the destroy their cultures.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20081113/wl_mcclatchy/3099848


Why the change of name?

banned for trollfests and flaming with Zay. Banned until The end of 2008 so using this acc currently

Then why does anyone here CARE about tibet?

because I hate large groups of people forcing their bullshit on other smaller groups of nations who do not give a shit. Kind've like what happens with people who force others to conform to their crap.

1950's actually.


thank you.


anyway tibet had a population of 800 thousand people in an area the size of argentina, if china didn't invade it it would have been invaded by someone else in the end.


not at the 1950s or whatnot. Arguably more likely earlier, but not by then. And Tibet was pretty backwater and remote. Who would invade them? Nepal? India? Russia?


anyway, China is developing tibet and lifting its population out of poverty, before the communist party came you had to pay to have an abortion, now they are mandatory!! jk jk.


:D :D :D :D


but joking aside, china has done alot for the developement of tibet, the dalai llama did NOTHING to help people.

that is true. The Chinese actually did things to improve the Tibetans, unlike the theocratic shithole Tibet under the Dalai Lama was.. see the below link for more.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Though the Chinese Government is now encouraging immigration of Han Chinese into areas that are not Han Chinese. Inner Mongolia is having issues with being flooded, as well as Xinjian. The Chinese Government is doing that deliberately to assimilate the destroy their cultures.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20081113/wl_mcclatchy/3099848


Why the change of name?

banned for trollfests and flaming with Zay. Banned until The end of 2008 so using this acc currently

Then why does anyone here CARE about tibet?

because I hate large groups of people forcing their bullshit on other smaller groups of nations who do not give a shit. Kind've like what happens with people who force others to conform to their crap.

Case closed then, right?

Fact of the matter is, Tibet was a complete plot of horse shit before Mao had the egotistical impulse to screw the Dalai. How would re instituting a theocracy be a better alternative to Chinese Rule ? Because they're Buddhist? Bullcrap.

If anything, it's the West trying to set up a state in the middle of nowhere to gain geo-political leverage (*cough*Israel*cough*) against the communist Chinese and Pakistan by instituting a Pro-West government


P.S. I'm not Communist, I'm just trying to point out what seems obvious. Oh, and I'm not a Nazi; again, pointing out the obvious.

How would re instituting a theocracy be a better alternative to Chinese Rule ? Because they're Buddhist? Bullcrap.

An independent Tibet does not have to be theocratic however. It can be democratic with the Dalai Lama allowed to return. Oh and they can preserve their culture without being flooded with Han Chinese in a Zerg Rush


If anything, it's the West trying to set up a state in the middle of nowhere to gain geo-political leverage (*cough*Israel*cough*) against the communist Chinese and Pakistan by instituting a Pro-West government


didn't think of it like that. but Western Governments haven't been really pushing for an independent Tibet. There's always Taiwan for the US to protect and prevent the PRC from invading, which I can understand. Taiwan does not want to be a part of china, but recently more conciliatory acts were made by Taiwan. I think the current president is actually wanted for some corruption or something.

and Pakistan is still a US ally. So is India

P.S. I'm not Communist, I'm just trying to point out what seems obvious. Oh, and I'm not a Nazi; again, pointing out the obvious.

k

PART 1

An independent Tibet does not have to be theocratic however. It can be democratic with the Dalai Lama allowed to return. Oh and they can preserve their culture without being flooded with Han Chinese in a Zerg Rush

PART 2

didn't think of it like that. but Western Governments haven't been really pushing for an independent Tibet. There's always Taiwan for the US to protect and prevent the PRC from invading, which I can understand. Taiwan does not want to be a part of china, but recently more conciliatory acts were made by Taiwan. I think the current president is actually wanted for some corruption or something.

and Pakistan is still a US ally. So is India

I split it into parts to better respond.

1) You have a point, it wouldn't necessarily regress to a theocracy, but, come on. That's like the US invading the Vatican, then pull out, allow the Pope to regain control, but he's got to pinky promise not to set up his theocracy back. Yeah. The Chinese exert lenient command over Tibet. They are allowed representation in the communist party, and can worship freely. China isn't the Police State it was during Mao's times.

2) You are almost spot on here, and I completely agree. Taiwanese politics have traditionally been against re-unification with the PRC. However, I've read the current party in power, the Kuomintang, wants to establish closer ties. So this could potentially be a non issue in the future. Maybe Tibet = Securing American interests in East Asia?
Oh and you mentioned Pakistan and India. Oh god... Those two nations hate each other, and recently, the PRC has been working with Pakistan to develop weapons and nuclear technology. In retaliation, the US is helping India develop its nuclear capabilities. I don't like where this is going...

I split it into parts to better respond.


oh. okay :)

1) You have a point, it wouldn't necessarily regress to a theocracy, but, come on. That's like the US invading the Vatican, then pull out, allow the Pope to regain control, but he's got to pinky promise not to set up his theocracy back. Yeah. [/quote]

the UN could provide help with setting up a democratic government. They have negotiated cease-fires and helped as peacekeepers in the past with good effect (UN forces are actually battling some rebels in the Congo helping the "legitimate" government there).

The Chinese exert lenient command over Tibet. They are allowed representation in the communist party, and can worship freely. China isn't the Police State it was during Mao's times.

the PRC is flooding Tibet with Han Chinese, intentionally diluting their culture

2) You are almost spot on here, and I completely agree. Taiwanese politics have traditionally been against re-unification with the PRC. However, I've read the current party in power, the Kuomintang, wants to establish closer ties. So this could potentially be a non issue in the future. Maybe Tibet = Securing American interests in East Asia?


heh

Oh and you mentioned Pakistan and India. Oh god... Those two nations hate each other, and recently, the PRC has been working with Pakistan to develop weapons and nuclear technology. In retaliation, the US is helping India develop its nuclear capabilities. I don't like where this is going...

wait. shit. damn. I knew there was also issues between India and china but DAMN...

For real. The stuff going on in the Indian Subcontinent is some dangerous shit.


Anyways. I believe we pretty much agree, but I still see some flaws in both our logic, which hopefully we can mend.

You mentioned UN intervention. When pigs fucking fly, my friend! Both China and Russia are on the permanent council, and no resolution fucking the PRC in the ass that bad would ever fly. Besides, the UN is mainly pro-west. You don't think they'd do the same they did in Israel?

And what you said about the Han flooding Tibet. It's not that the PRC gov't is intentionally flooding them with gooks, it's just that Tibet is starting to develop and there are tons of job opportunities, so many poor rural Chinese are flocking for jobs.

And yeah, that shit is India is some fucked trite.

flooding tibet with han chinese???

thats like complaining about americans "flooding into" alaska!

what's the difference betwean a tibetan and any other chinese ethnicity?

han, manchurian, hakka, cantonese, fukkienese etc. etc there's loads. and tibetan is just another kind of chink. like mongolians. basically koreans and japanese are just another kind of chink. vietnamese people, burmese people, malaysians, singaporeans, they are ALL CHINKS!

when it comes to places like indonesia, well, they're borderline chinks, just like greece is borderline white.

the chink race should band together under one flag?

flooding tibet with han chinese???

thats like complaining about americans "flooding into" alaska!

what's the difference betwean a tibetan and any other chinese ethnicity?

han, manchurian, hakka, cantonese, fukkienese etc. etc there's loads. and tibetan is just another kind of chink. like mongolians. basically koreans and japanese are just another kind of chink. vietnamese people, burmese people, malaysians, singaporeans, they are ALL CHINKS!

when it comes to places like indonesia, well, they're borderline chinks, just like greece is borderline white.

the chink race should band together under one flag?

Nothing to offend you, but you have a misconception common among us Westerners.

Saying that the Koreans, the Hakka, the Manchus, and the Han are the same is extremely uneducated. It is the same as to say, a Scot is the same as a Hungarian. It's very uneducated to say such a thing.

The problem some people see with the current Chinese Government is that they believe they are oppressing the Tibetans. The Han and Tibetans are what Armenians are to Spaniards. Very different. Thus, problems sometimes arise when people of different cultures mix.

I was merely arguing that the Chinese government has been very flexible with the Tibetans, and that calls for free Tibet are unnecessary, since the Chinese have been modernizing and enriching the region for the past decades, something the past Buddhist Theocracy failed to ever do.

If anything, calls for a free Tibet are merely a way for western nations like the USA to gain geo-political influence in the region, much like we already do with Israel in the Middle East. Besides, asking the Chinese to give up Tibet is like asking the US to give up all land east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason-Dixon Line. That much...

tibetans speak chinese are buddhist and eat rice. they also look like chinese people. they ARE CHINESE!

Nothing to offend you, but you have a misconception common among us Westerners.

Saying that the Koreans, the Hakka, the Manchus, and the Han are the same is extremely uneducated. It is the same as to say, a Scot is the same as a Hungarian. It's very uneducated to say such a thing.

The problem some people see with the current Chinese Government is that they believe they are oppressing the Tibetans. The Han and Tibetans are what Armenians are to Spaniards. Very different. Thus, problems sometimes arise when people of different cultures mix.

I was merely arguing that the Chinese government has been very flexible with the Tibetans, and that calls for free Tibet are unnecessary, since the Chinese have been modernizing and enriching the region for the past decades, something the past Buddhist Theocracy failed to ever do.

If anything, calls for a free Tibet are merely a way for western nations like the USA to gain geo-political influence in the region, much like we already do with Israel in the Middle East. Besides, asking the Chinese to give up Tibet is like asking the US to give up all land east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason-Dixon Line. That much...

why can't people who speak different languages be in the same nation?
if japan can never be part of china then wales can never be part of the UK and quebec is not part of canada!

uneducated? me? never.

I know practically nothing of the history of Tibet's sovereignty or "who was there first", and frankly it doesn't interest me. However, in simple terms, by allowing the Chinese to (re)take Tibet we are allowing an entire nation of people to be subjected to human rights abuses (http://www.tibet.com/Humanrights/HumanRights97/index.html) for their religion and their refusal to accept new sovereignty. And history notwithstanding, in my book that's just not cricket.

why can't people who speak different languages be in the same nation?

because language can be a defining term for a 'nation'. Chinese Nationalism does have the Tibetans as one of the main Chinese peoples yes.


if japan can never be part of china then wales can never be part of the UK and quebec is not part of canada!


technically, in those cases the UK is a union of 4 constituent nation-states, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They are not a single "nation" its a union of 4 major nations.

And some people would say Canada is primarily a union of 3 major nations, the First Nations (natives), The British Canadians and French-Canadians. See Quebec seceding recently.


uneducated? me? never.

okay :)

tibetans speak chinese

they speak Tibetan
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTibetan _language&ei=6EIjSf3tL4i28AS_1qlQ&usg=AFQjCNHJdRDaPj7KfLItAUYr9y1v2t7qdw&sig2=ygTyuKpKQNTYwf8fR252tw



are buddhist

true

and eat rice.

lol :P

they also look like chinese people. they ARE CHINESE!

Modern Chinese Nationalism says that but many Tibetans don't consider themselves Chinese.

Kind've like the US Northern States considering the confederates part of the US but they could be technically their own nation and cultural distinct.

flooding tibet with han chinese???

thats like complaining about americans "flooding into" alaska!


lol. the native americans would say that :P

there's loads. and tibetan is just another kind of chink.

I loled :D

like mongolians. basically koreans and japanese are just another kind of chink.

South East Asians yes.

vietnamese people, burmese people, malaysians,

technically that's in Indo-China.

singaporeans, they are ALL CHINKS!


Singapore has a lot of Hindus and Malays, etc.

but point taken :)


when it comes to places like indonesia, well, they're borderline chinks, just like greece is borderline white.

lol


the chink race should band together under one flag?

there's stuff like ASEAN and whatnot. Though there's internal shit between say, China and Japan. or Japan and Korea. some of the SouthEast Asian tribes hate each others too

It is the same as to say, a Scot is the same as a Hungarian. It's very uneducated to say such a thing.


more like a Scot is the same as a Irish person (better analogy, both are 'closer' together and they would probably bitch at you if you mess up and say they're the opposite).

or the differene between a Mexican and a Puerto Rican, for another comparison

When pigs fucking fly, my friend!

But .. they do :confused:
http://www.selfsecure.co.za/assets/images/Police_helicopter.jpg

more like a Scot is the same as a Irish person (better analogy, both are 'closer' together and they would probably bitch at you if you mess up and say they're the opposite).

or the differene between a Mexican and a Puerto Rican, for another comparison

Oh god. You guys have several incorrect beliefs, and I'll try to address them by user...

stormshadowftb

You liken China to Japanese, and you assume their people speak similar languages. Not by a long shot, friend. The Japanese are very westernized and liberal, unlike the Chinese, and their language, Japanese, is a language isolate, meaning it has no linguistic relation to any other language on earth, save for regional dialects like Okinawan.
You also mention Wales and the UK, comparing them to Tibet and China. First, Tibetans do not speak Mandarin, they speak their own language. But, I totally agree with you, it is for the general benefit of the region to have Tibet remain in China.

Lewcifer

You mention PRC human rights abuses in Tibet, a personal pet peeve of mine. The general population of Tibet is alright with the Chinese government, since the PRC has been conjuring economic miracles in traditionally unfertile, unproductive, and more or less dirt poor land. The PRC allows freedom of religion for all religious denominations, provided they do not cede authority to a figurehead such as the pope, or the Lama.
People who sponsor a free Tibet are, whether they realize it or not, a mouthpiece for the interests of Western Nations. A free Tibet would be a strategic leg up by giving nations like mine, the US, an opportunity to meddle in regional politics, much like we do in Israel, by setting up a Pro-West government (Returning the Dalai to power)

Warsie

Again, you're pretty much right, except when you compared Chinese and Japanese and Mexicans to Puerto Ricans. In actuality, it'd be right if you stated that Chinese and Japanese were like Mexicans to Cubans, if Cubans spoke a totally different language like Basque, and had completely different politics which they already do. Definitely not like Scots and Irishmen, however. And I was a bit far off myself, it's more like Scots to Basques.

Ughh... Done. Ready to reply, too..

Oh god. You guys have several incorrect beliefs, and I'll try to address them by user...

Lewcifer
You mention PRC human rights abuses in Tibet, a personal pet peeve of mine. The general population of Tibet is alright with the Chinese government, since the PRC has been conjuring economic miracles in traditionally unfertile, unproductive, and more or less dirt poor land. The PRC allows freedom of religion for all religious denominations, provided they do not cede authority to a figurehead such as the pope, or the Lama.
People who sponsor a free Tibet are, whether they realize it or not, a mouthpiece for the interests of Western Nations. A free Tibet would be a strategic leg up by giving nations like mine, the US, an opportunity to meddle in regional politics, much like we do in Israel, by setting up a Pro-West government (Returning the Dalai to power)

Ughh... Done. Ready to reply, too..

An "incorrect belief"? I don't believe I've come across one of those as yet.

Anyway, I'd quite like to see some sources for a) the general Tibetan population being "alright" with the Chinese and b) that the Chinese have used "economic miracles" to benefit ordinary Tibetans; because on the face of it they seem like statements pulled from the anus.

"freedom of religion for all religious denominations, provided they do not cede authority to a figurehead such as the pope, or the Lama"....... That's like going to Mali and saying "Freedom for all, except those with black skin"! In practical terms, it's a worthless statement.

An "incorrect belief"? I don't believe I've come across one of those as yet.

Anyway, I'd quite like to see some sources for a) the general Tibetan population being "alright" with the Chinese and b) that the Chinese have used "economic miracles" to benefit ordinary Tibetans; because on the face of it they seem like statements pulled from the anus.

"freedom of religion for all religious denominations, provided they do not cede authority to a figurehead such as the pope, or the Lama"....... That's like going to Mali and saying "Freedom for all, except those with black skin"! In practical terms, it's a worthless statement.

First, the PRC government has been working hard to spread the astronomical economic growth occurring throughout China into the interior, especially Tibet. These articles highlight that work:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/02/eng20060702_279272.html
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/6407821.html
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/zgxz/t385907.htm

Basically, there are still many issues that have to be dealt with by both local Tibetan authorities and the CCP, such as illiteracy and an economic disparity. It's vital for the PRC to solve this to appease Tibetans; the age of iron grip control is defunct.

Things like railroads, roads, and airports have improved travel in the region, and many Tibetans have moved to the cities or elsewhere, because to be quite honest, Tibet is a shit hole. The soil is poor and unproductive, the climate is dry and windy, and moving to the cities is a much better alternative to their lands. If I were in that situation, I'd hop the next train the hell out of there and get a job in the cities.

The things the Dalai Lama is trying to do are ridiculous. Move back in to re-establish a theocracy? Oh god, fuck this. I've discussed this before in the thread, and I don't feel like re-typing. Please scroll up and read my posts regarding what I believe about setting up a new Tibet.

And a note on religion: The PRC government allows freedom of worship so long as the belief doesn't have a central figure of authority. I agree this is a tad draconian, but China is a country in development, and things like building up their country are more important than petty issues like that. Many Buddhists worship freely in the PRC, it's just Tibetan Buddhists that seem to have a problem waiting for the right time to bitch about these issues.


Oh, and at the beginning of your post, where you toy me for saying "incorrect belief". Don't you go there, you jerk-wad, I was trying to sound civil and not say something too blatantly partisan to you. Apologies for civility...

Warsie

Again, you're pretty much right, except when you compared Chinese and Japanese and Mexicans to Puerto Ricans. In actuality, it'd be right if you stated that Chinese and Japanese were like Mexicans to Cubans, if Cubans spoke a totally different language like Basque, and had completely different politics which they already do. Definitely not like Scots and Irishmen, however. And I was a bit far off myself, it's more like Scots to Basques.

Ughh... Done. Ready to reply, too..

okay :)

also lol @ your username. Naming yourself after the World Tree ;)

The Japanese are very westernized and liberal, unlike the Chinese

isn't Japan basically a crossroads of mixtures of various cultures, Western influences, Confucianism, etc? See Anime as an example, they took the Western Animation styles and used some of the themes common in their culture.

But .. they do :confused:
http://www.selfsecure.co.za/assets/images/Police_helicopter.jpg

true dat nigga :cool:


And a note on religion: The PRC government allows freedom of worship so long as the belief doesn't have a central figure of authority.

What about the Falun Gong? There's been a lot of fucked up things regarding that. Reports of live harvesting, torture, etc.

.......

Those articles were interesting, thanks. As I said, this is not an area of the world I know a whole lot about. It certainly says something about our own media that the strategy of poverty relief is never reported.

However you addressed neither the human right abuses nor did you back up the statement "the general population of Tibet is alright with the Chinese government". It's a safe bet to say that some Western governments highlight Tibetan suffering simply as another route for criticising Beijing, but the abuses are well documented by independent bodies. Is there something you know that gives you reason to doubt them?

It seems to me like the Chinese are using the age old tactic of increasing material wealth to distract people from the fact that their freedom is evaporating.

Tibetan people speak chinese!

maybe they speak tibetan as a second language or maybe in monasteries but the lingua franca in tibet is mandarin chinese.

i watched the documentry "a year in tibet" and ALL were speaking chinese, even to each other.

as far as japan being totally different to china, the written language is 60% chinese characters!!!!

but look at a japanese person and look at a chinese person....what's the difference?

you CAN'T TELL! (well I can tell, but you can't)

okay :)

isn't Japan basically a crossroads of mixtures of various cultures, Western influences, Confucianism, etc? See Anime as an example, they took the Western Animation styles and used some of the themes common in their culture.

What about the Falun Gong? There's been a lot of fucked up things regarding that. Reports of live harvesting, torture, etc.

You're right, Japanese culture is very much a melting pot of influences. I was trying to highlight the political differences both the PRC and Japan have. Culturally, the PRC is starting to go in the same direction as Japan and the West, but just recently.

I didn't want to bring up the Falun Gong unless called on it, because it's a bit complicated. As I mentioned before, the Chinese generally allow freedom of religion, so long as the religion doesn't interfere with politics or civil stability. Obviously, the Chinese gov't has a long way to go to truly allow fully free worship, but as of right now, the gov't has much larger fish to fry, such as sustaining economic growth, keeping unemployment low, and stabilizing inflation.

Falun Gong started as a religious movement in the PRC in the 90's, and in 1999, members of the group staged a public protest. The PRC gov't had been fearing the spread of the cult, and used the incident to start a backlash against them. They are barred from practicing it, and the Chinese still hold some members captive in labor camps.

It's obviously mistreatment on the part of the Chinese gov't, but right now is not the time for drastic political and social reforms. The Chinese are experiencing an economic boom that has made their country rise from the last 200 years of poverty and strife, and massive reforms would certainly collapse this growth.


Thanks for knowing you Norse Mythology, too ;) ....

Those articles were interesting, thanks. As I said, this is not an area of the world I know a whole lot about. It certainly says something about our own media that the strategy of poverty relief is never reported.

However you addressed neither the human right abuses nor did you back up the statement "the general population of Tibet is alright with the Chinese government". It's a safe bet to say that some Western governments highlight Tibetan suffering simply as another route for criticising Beijing, but the abuses are well documented by independent bodies. Is there something you know that gives you reason to doubt them?

It seems to me like the Chinese are using the age old tactic of increasing material wealth to distract people from the fact that their freedom is evaporating.

You make many valid points, kudos :) .

Regardless, I still have a couple bones to pick. You mentioned Chinese abuses committed against the Tibetans. I've never denied that some abuses are being arbitrated by the Chinese government, but you have to consider to whom those offenses are being committed.

I am not defending the Chinese government's use of violence, but you do have to consider who the victims are. I have watched a documentary of Buddhist monks that work with the Dalai, who trek into Tibet from India demanding a free Tibet.

They're asking for it.

You have to consider that China is a nation is fast development, and there are many issues more trying to the people than social and political change. The government is expending all their efforts in keeping their economy from collapsing, keeping inflation low, and providing jobs for all.

You mentioned the Chinese removing rights from the people under the guise of economic prosperity. Although the government keeps tight control over things like the Internet, in general, the government is very much more lax than it was in the past. The kind of coverage that earthquake a couple of months back received was unthinkable in the 80's. The media is allowed to report on things like corruption and fraud, which again,was unthinkable.

Basically, the Chinese government is trying to implement changes to satisfy the people, but is not doing them overnight. They have very trying issues to deal with beforehand.

........

I wouldn't calling practicing religion or performing non-violent protest "asking for it"; and the fact that the Chinese government aren't tolerant of dissent within the rest of their country is not a valid defense of them doing it in Tibet.

Their reaction to the Sichuan earthquake wasn't as wonderful as you would have people believe in terms of freedom of the press. They were happy to broadcast initially when the loss seemed due to an unavoidable act of God, but when it came to light that shoddily built government schools had crumbled in villages where few other buildings were damaged, countless reporters were detained and deported, and when grieving parents staged public protests they were threatened with physical violence.

http://www.heritage.org/RESEARCH/ASIAANDTHEPACIFIC/wm1971.cfm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/22/AR2008062201586.html

I wouldn't calling practicing religion or performing non-violent protest "asking for it"; and the fact that the Chinese government aren't tolerant of dissent within the rest of their country is not a valid defense of them doing it in Tibet.

Their reaction to the Sichuan earthquake wasn't as wonderful as you would have people believe in terms of freedom of the press. They were happy to broadcast initially when the loss seemed due to an unavoidable act of God, but when it came to light that shoddily built government schools had crumbled in villages where few other buildings were damaged, countless reporters were detained and deported, and when grieving parents staged public protests they were threatened with physical violence.

http://www.heritage.org/RESEARCH/ASIAANDTHEPACIFIC/wm1971.cfm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/22/AR2008062201586.html

I totally agree.
You've highlighted basically some of the things wrong with how their government is carrying out its functions. I didn't mean to defend the Chinese. Of course, the gov't shouldn't be detaining protesters, but these people have to realize now is not the time to screw with the gov't.

This shouldn't justify Chinese actions, however.

Their country is developing; think of it as America at the turn of the 20th century. Their government is gradually becoming more liberal, but drastic change will not come overnight and these protesters are making calls that will not be answered, at least not soon.

The falun gong is not just an excercise club.

the REAL falun gong is a suicide cult.

the "falun gong" is literally translated as "the method of wheel"

the believers believe that they have a prayer wheel spinning inside their stomachs, which they must continue to spin by doing excercises, repeating mantras etc.

they believe that when the wheel stops spinning they will not be reincarnated.

there are many cases of falun gong members committing suicide because they believe their "Fa Lun" has stopped spinning.

THIS is why it is outlawed in China.

western journalists are idiots.

It's like how many chinese journalists come over here telling us we're persecuting scientologists?

The falun gong is not just an excercise club.

the REAL falun gong is a suicide cult.

the "falun gong" is literally translated as "the method of wheel"

the believers believe that they have a prayer wheel spinning inside their stomachs, which they must continue to spin by doing excercises, repeating mantras etc.

they believe that when the wheel stops spinning they will not be reincarnated.

there are many cases of falun gong members committing suicide because they believe their "Fa Lun" has stopped spinning.

THIS is why it is outlawed in China.

western journalists are idiots.

It's like how many chinese journalists come over here telling us we're persecuting scientologists?

I was trying to not sound like a fascist atheist in my response. I refrained from calling them a money-hungry cult, which is my personal opinion of them, and what you've talked about is very interesting. Not to disagree, but if you could provide some links. I'd appreciate it :)

google.

Although the OP makes a valid point, I'm sure (I didn't read it..), for some reason, all of Tibet seems to think that they should be their own country due to China taking them over.

Now, I'm sure you know more about the issue than the Tibetans, I'm simply adding some diversity to the views here.

^ That's a common misconception propagated by Pro-West media. The Chinese government has, for the most part, been doing everything it can to develop and strengthen Tibet.

It's in the Chinese government's interest to develop Tibet, and they are allowing Tibetans to worship freely. They even allow the Tibetans to practice Tibetan Buddhism.

The Chinese Government only cracks down on them when they take to the streets to demand freedom. It's absurd. It's like the poorest, and most backwards part of an advanced nation wanting to separate. It's not logical.

Some Tibetans may not like being under Chinese rule, but in fact, they are lucky bastards. They are like stowaway stragglers latching onto a ship of solid gold. They're riding the Chinese current of economic expansion, and breaking off would screw them.

Let's analyze the facts. Tibet is a landlocked nation. It has very poor soil. There are sparse agricultural or mineral resources. It is technologically backwards, and it has poor transportation.

But they are under the aegis of a nation experiencing the greatest economic boon in history, and said nation has a government that has been very willing to develop Tibet. Separating would not only strip one of the most powerful nations on Earth of 25% of its land, it would completely dismantle the fledgling Tibetan economy.

By the way, please don't take this the wrong way. As aforementioned, I'm not communist, nor anti-west. I just try to bring people a perspective from both sides of the issues.

On that note, I'm not a gook either ;)

I'm not communist, nor anti-west. ;)

neither is China.

I fucking hate the paraolympics. It's an insult to real athletes. They're basically saying people that pour their sweat, blood, and souls into fine tuning their bodies to the maximum so that they can pull off amazing feats of athleticism are on the same level as cripples and retards.

The Chinese Government only cracks down on them when they take to the streets to demand freedom. It's absurd. It's like the poorest, and most backwards part of an advanced nation wanting to separate. It's not logical.

Some Tibetans may not like being under Chinese rule, but in fact, they are lucky bastards. They are like stowaway stragglers latching onto a ship of solid gold. They're riding the Chinese current of economic expansion, and breaking off would screw them.

God forbid someone wants a little freedom.

the white man won't do it.



China has invaded Tibet in the ~1960s and has had a reputation through the millenia of invading Tibet.

That's not true, Tibet has always been a province of China, just like Taiwan is.

God forbid someone wants a little freedom.

Of course it's wrong for the Chinese to oppress like this, but right now, China is changing fast.

The govt has to work day and night to keep the economic boom afloat, keep inflation low, and keep unemployment down. The Chinese govt is busy dealing with this, and now is not the time to be fucking around demanding change.

Supporters of the Dalai know this and they use it to their advantage to gain sympathy in the west. Creating Tibet would create yet another pseudo-satellite nation for the United States, and we all know how the locals react to this kind of shit (cough**Israel**cough)

Of course it's wrong for the Chinese to oppress like this, but right now, China is changing fast.

The govt has to work day and night to keep the economic boom afloat, keep inflation low, and keep unemployment down. The Chinese govt is busy dealing with this, and now is not the time to be fucking around demanding change.

Supporters of the Dalai know this and they use it to their advantage to gain sympathy in the west. Creating Tibet would create yet another pseudo-satellite nation for the United States, and we all know how the locals react to this kind of shit (cough**Israel**cough)

As shady is the US is I think it would be a lot better to be under US influence than Chinese domination. Some might disagree but I think the Tibetans should be the ones who decide who runs their country, not China, the US, or the anyone else.

As shady is the US is I think it would be a lot better to be under US influence than Chinese domination. Some might disagree but I think the Tibetans should be the ones who decide who runs their country, not China, the US, or the anyone else.

Maybe so, but you still don't grasp the core of the problem. Creating another US puppet state in the middle of nowhere would further create Geo-Political tensions. It's a common strategy of the West to intervene on the part of a nation only to set up a pro-west state that they can manipulate against neighbors in the region.

What do you mean by letting Tibetans "run their country?" You mean set up some backwards-ass theocracy to counter Chinese and Pakistani influence? Anyhow, you'd be stripping one of the world's most powerful nations of 25% of its territory.

Let's see how we react if the Chinese asked us to give up all of the Carolinas, the Midwest, and New England.

Oh wait, that's not even 25%. Yes, I understand the differences between our states and Tibet, but it's the same damn concept.

Maybe so, but you still don't grasp the core of the problem. Creating another US puppet state in the middle of nowhere would further create Geo-Political tensions. It's a common strategy of the West to intervene on the part of a nation only to set up a pro-west state that they can manipulate against neighbors in the region.

What do you mean by letting Tibetans "run their country?" You mean set up some backwards-ass theocracy to counter Chinese and Pakistani influence? Anyhow, you'd be stripping one of the world's most powerful nations of 25% of its territory.

Let's see how we react if the Chinese asked us to give up all of the Carolinas, the Midwest, and New England.

Oh wait, that's not even 25%. Yes, I understand the differences between our states and Tibet, but it's the same damn concept.

The choice shouldn't be China's. If they wanted Tibet they should give Tibet a hell of a lot more incentive. Any state should be allowed to choose what country it joins and what country it leaves. I think it is important to mention that I was in favor of the south during the civil war. Before you start I'm not one of those redneck bastards who thinks niggers should still be picking the white man's cotton. The people living the area in question should be the only ones who decide who rules them. If the Chinese want to come over and take some states let em give it their best shot. We aren't a bunch of unarmed, uneducated villagers over here. Now if North Carolina wanted to become part of China then I wouldn't give a fuck. If tibet wanted to be part of China I wouldn't give a fuck. Now if China wants to force its rule on someone else then I have a problem with that. I don't live in Tibet or know many people that do live there so I'm going to stay out of it. I will just start hating China more now because their government is a piece of shit. Kinda like how I started hating the US government more after they invaded Iraq. I didn't see too many Iraqi's begging for bombs to be dropped on their houses just like I don't see too many Tibetans begging for communism.

Redjoker, this whole façade of Chinese oppression is wearing thin.

The Chinese government knows it cannot keep hold of Tibet if they do not give Tibetans the rights and opportunities enjoyed by the Han Chinese and other minorities.

You know what, I have had this same exact discussion a while back in the thread. I am not a parrot, and I don't plan on repeating myself, so please go back and read my earlier posts, and then reply.

Regardless, I still hold my belief that Tibet should be the decider. The fact that they are so culturally different only adds to it. I've read your previous posts but that isn't going to change my opinion. I'm not trying to force my opinion on you. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. One thing I do think we can agree on is that our opinions don't mean shit really since we don't live there. Probably wouldn't even if we did considering the circumstances, lol.

Yep.

/thread?

/thread?

I do believe a /thread is appropriate.