To encourage voluntary service, Barrack Obama plans to "integrate service into learning". He wants to make voluntary service mandatory for middle school and high school students.
Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/service/

Obama's chief of staff choice, Rep. Rahm Emanuel, favors compulsory universal service for all citizens age 18 to 25.
http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m11d6-Obamas-chief-of-staff-choice-favors-compulsory-universal-service

So? They have it in Germany - you go out for an hour or two a week to do something to help your community. Here in Canada it's called PAL/COM and has both a physical activity and a community service aspect - to pass you have to have a certain number of outside-school hours for service and stuff..It teaches young people the value of community work and gets them doing something else other than the repetitiveness of sitting in class all day talking and wasting time.

Maybe if you guys had that your country wouldn't be so damn fat. Seriously. I was in New Jersey over the summer and there were obese people as far as the eye could see. I mean, Goddamn.

So? They have it in Germany - you go out for an hour or two a week to do something to help your community. Here in Canada it's called PAL/COM and has both a physical activity and a community service aspect - to pass you have to have a certain number of outside-school hours for service and stuff..It teaches young people the value of community work and gets them doing something else other than the repetitiveness of sitting in class all day talking and wasting time.

Maybe if you guys had that your country wouldn't be so damn fat. Seriously. I was in New Jersey over the summer and there were obese people as far as the eye could see. I mean, Goddamn.

The problem is americans are spoiled brats. They'll bitch and moan at the very idea of doing any physical work. Maybe this will help them. It'd be nice if Obama would do what Finland did so the people in the US wouldn't be so damn fat. But I hate obamas jewjew biased foreign policy.

Who wants to go to war for the jewjews? :)

Forced? Where the hell are the words "forced", "mandatory", or "obligatory" anywhere present in that website? Nowhere.

It says that's their goal. That doesn't mean they are going to force people in order to reach it. For example, my goal is to get my balls sucked off on daily basis; yet me not being a rapist, I don't force anyone to do it.


In fact, it says voluntary in big blue letters right in the website:

"Barack Obama and Joe Biden's Plan for Universal Voluntary Public Service"


They should force people to go to school; you clearly need it.

Forced? Where the hell are the words "forced", "mandatory", or "obligatory" anywhere present in that website? Nowhere.

Of course not. I wouldn't expect to see those words even if that was their intention.



It says that's their goal. That doesn't mean they are going to force people in order to reach it. For example, my goal is to get my balls sucked off on daily basis; yet me not being a rapist, I don't force anyone to do it.

I know, I know. I was sort of being a little satirical. Their intentions, I believe is to compel local school districts to integrate community service into learning by offering school districts federal funds.



In fact, it says voluntary in big blue letters right in the website:

"Barack Obama and Joe Biden's Plan for Universal Voluntary Public Service"
It's hard for a program to be both "universal" and "voluntary".


They should force people to go to school; you clearly need it.
Nice.

But I hate obamas jewjew biased foreign policy.

Who wants to go to war for the jewjews? :)

Not I.

It's hard for a program to be both "universal" and "voluntary".


Universal as in available to everyone.

Of course not. I wouldn't expect to see those words even if that was their intention.

So you're basing you're conclusion on what exactly? Baseless assumptions? I'm glad we agree.


I know, I know. I was sort of being a little satirical. Their intentions, I believe is to compel local school districts to integrate community service into learning by offering school districts federal funds.

So were being sarcastic when you said "He wants to make voluntary service mandatory for middle school and high school students."?

Either you don't know what sarcasm is or you're lying to cover your ignorant ass.

It's hard for a program to be both "universal" and "voluntary".

I think you missed the part where I explained to you that's their goal, as in, an ideal - they wished everyone participated in the voluntary program.

Have you heard of the concept of universal healthcare? Do you really think they are proposing we give healthcare to the nice aliens on planet Gurthork-47?


Nice.

No, actually that was kind of mean!

Compulsory community service is already common in many schools across the country.

So were being sarcastic when you said "He wants to make voluntary service mandatory for middle school and high school students."?

Sort of.


I think you missed the part where I explained to you that's their goal, as in, an ideal - they wished everyone participated in the voluntary program.

I think you missed the part where I explained that schools who don't adopt programs like this will likely miss out on federal funds. Participation among students will likely be voluntary, only in so much that students who choose not to participate can choose not to graduate.

Compulsory community service is already common in many schools across the country.

I'm aware of this.

Sort of.

I'll put you down for a "no".



I think you missed the part where I explained that schools who don't adopt programs like this will likely miss out on federal funds. Participation among students will likely be voluntary, only in so much that students who choose not to participate can choose not to graduate.Oh, I didn't miss that gem at all; that was one of the many highlights of this show your amazing ability to pull stuff straight out of your ass.

Does the website explain what the plan is? No. Do is it say it will not give out federal funds to those schools who don't participate? No. Does it say schools will not graduate those students that don't participate in the program? No.

So what are you basing this on? Your speculation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6Lz264wOAg

Do is it say it will not give out federal funds to those schools who don't participate?

What I meant to say is that schools that do participate will likely get more funds.



Does it say schools will not graduate those students that don't participate in the program?

That is often how it works.


So what are you basing this on? Your speculation?
Pretty much.

I had to do a mandatory minimum of 20 hours of community service in middle school. You had all of 8th grade to do 20 hours. It's not that bad at all. You could do one hour a week and be done in 1 semester.

Also, from the perspective that school is mandatory, and people without children pay property taxes to fund schools, is it so wrong for people to get a little back in their investment from kids helping in libraries, cleaning up road medians, assisting a clinic, etc?

To encourage voluntary service, Barrack Obama plans to "integrate service into learning". He wants to make voluntary service mandatory for middle school and high school students...

...and will establish a new tax credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.

Uhh... That's basically $40 an hour for volunteering. You can do anything you like, volunteer at a school if you're a pedo, an old folks home if you like grannies, an animal shelter if you're into bestiality, etc, etc... Or you could just do it for the hell of it. Whatever.

You amerifags really need to grow the fuck up. Obama wants you to go out and actually help OTHER people in your community? What a fucking dictatorship you poor pussies live in.

I hope unemployment surpasses depression levels in your shithole libertarian nation.

I think you missed the part where I explained that schools who don't adopt programs like this will likely miss out on federal funds. Participation among students will likely be voluntary, only in so much that students who choose not to participate can choose not to graduate.

Yea, and students who choose not to 'participate' in tests can 'choose' not to graduate, and students who choose not to take the SAT/ACT can choose not to go to college. Life is about choices. It's also about doing shit that you don't necessarily want to do in order to succeed. If anyone is stupid enough to drop out of high school in order to avoid doing less than 1 hour a week of community service, then they're too stupid to deserve that diploma anyways.

edit: I'd also like to add that the $4,000 tax credit goes towards college tuition. If we had this right now, I'd still be in college. :(

Community Service was mandatory when I was in 8th grade and 12th grade. It sounds like a hassle to go out of your way from your normal everyday life working for free, but it really wasn't that bad. I got to meet people I would have probably never met if I didn't do it and the work they give you is basically nothing since you are just a volunteer working for free. Besides, I'd like to see that enforced all around. If there isn't something to get all of these kids off of the street, my speeding car or loaded shotgun will.

Don't get me wrong, I love kids. I come from a big family. But I really hate idiots who don't know shit. Kids doing nothing but roaming the streets all day are typically the ones who just don't know shit and don't have shit to do. If we don't get them now, they'll get us later with their welfare paid abortions and food stamps.

...and will establish a new tax credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.

Uhh... That's basically $40 an hour for volunteering. You can do anything you like, volunteer at a school if you're a pedo, an old folks home if you like grannies, an animal shelter if you're into bestiality, etc, etc... Or you could just do it for the hell of it. Whatever.

I very much like that idea. I was only talking about his plans to encourage integration of community service into middle school and high school education.

Pretty much.


Great! So instead of "Obama Supports Force Labour", this thread title should actually read "In this thread I pull things out of my ass and state them as if they were facts".

Thank you.

Also, from the perspective that school is mandatory, and people without children pay property taxes to fund schools, is it so wrong for people to get a little back in their investment from kids helping in libraries, cleaning up road medians, assisting a clinic, etc?

Excellent point.

The (BC) Canada gov't tried to do something similar, basically all the kids just told them to fuck off and either wrote down some lie and got it signed or just didn't even bother. A few of those "honor role" top of the class type students at my school did run out and put in their volunteer hours, but the vast majority just said "fuck you" and the government backed down realizing it couldn't NOT allow 1/2 the provinces g12 year to grad, removing the program (altogether now I think, unless its just optional).

I suggest all you yankee kids do the same.

Figures...

Damn democrats.

To clear something up, I never suggested that he wished to have the federal government require students to do community service directly, or wished to force schools to integrate service into their education program. I have only speculated two things: that having all schools integrate community service into education is their goal; and that there will likely be some sort of incentive for schools to do that.

I don't necessarily think that this is a bad idea. I only used a strong phrase like "forced labour" to attract attention. Kind of lame, I know. The whole idea is just sort of new to me, and I was wondering what people thought about it. Students would have to complete a certain amount of hours in order to graduate, so I wouldn't call it voluntary. I don't think its any less acceptable than compulsory education without service, though. I'm sure community service does have a very valuable education benefit.

It's a good idea and the kids will probably enjoy it. The scouts were a huge American tradition, but as always when parents fail to educate the children it's up to the Goverment to encourage civic mindedness in the population.

It's a good idea and the kids will probably enjoy it. The scouts were a huge American tradition, but as always when parents fail to educate the children it's up to the Goverment to encourage civic mindedness in the population.

The thing that just makes me nervous is the whole slippery slope effect, but not that much in this aspect.

I think it's a good thing. The government should always encourage people to help their communities, but never force the people to do ANYTHING, aside from infringing on the rights of others.
A lot of people in America seem to complain about their town, I see this in my town all the time. It's good to give people an incentive to help out, considering there are many things that can be done to help the community, not just picking up trash or other things that just totally suck to do.

I think that they should build on this idea, and encourage parents do educate their children, not just limit this idea to young people making their community better, but up through all levels of society.

I have 7 hours a week of airtime on the local campus radio station where I basically spew my opinions on the air. If I pull a few strings with management (of which I'm a part) I can get those hours (up to 100) counted towards my Obama-funded tuition plan which will effectively pay $35.50 an hour and cover (according to his website) two thirds of my tuition. *lays back and smokes*

This isn't forced labor, this is a public works program. :D

Well, isn't this nice, he wants everyone to do their part. Oh wait he's mandating it, this is different. It's one thing to ask everyone to turn down the thermostat, and put on a sweater (or in this case check and properly inflate your tires), it's another thing to twist are arms into doing it. We have that at my school, for the diploma I'm going for I need 60 hours of community service, I'm on my way to getting it, but I'm not sure if on top of schoolwork I can manage a lot of hours every year. This also implies the same logic as a draft, the government owns you and your time, without it you'd be dead, you must do its bidding in order to prove your worth to the government.

Well, isn't this nice, he wants everyone to do their part. Oh wait he's mandating it, this is different. It's one thing to ask everyone to turn down the thermostat, and put on a sweater (or in this case check and properly inflate your tires), it's another thing to twist are arms into doing it. We have that at my school, for the diploma I'm going for I need 60 hours of community service, I'm on my way to getting it, but I'm not sure if on top of schoolwork I can manage a lot of hours every year. This also implies the same logic as a draft, the government owns you and your time, without it you'd be dead, you must do its bidding in order to prove your worth to the government.

Is he mandating it for private schools? Typically the use of state services implies the acceptance of the state's terms.

Well, isn't this nice, he wants everyone to do their part. Oh wait he's mandating it, this is different.

It is not a mandate, nor does it suggest it is going to be mandatory, as has already been pointed out in this thread. As Rust pointed out, the source cited by the OP actually says in big bold letters VOLUNTARY.

So you can go back to thinking "Well, isn't this nice".

I agree, that's total bullshit.

I mean, first off, community service is the exact same as slavery.

Second, we can't have our fucking kids learning to care about their communities and learn the value of work to improve their surroundings. That's commie talk right there.

If we let this shit happen, who knows, we might all have to start helping each-other and doing our part.

Fuck that would be awful.

^ You shouldn't have made it so obvious, you might have had people agreeing with you. ;)

So? They have it in Germany - you go out for an hour or two a week to do something to help your community. Here in Canada it's called PAL/COM and has both a physical activity and a community service aspect - to pass you have to have a certain number of outside-school hours for service and stuff..It teaches young people the value of community work and gets them doing something else other than the repetitiveness of sitting in class all day talking and wasting time.

Maybe if you guys had that your country wouldn't be so damn fat. Seriously. I was in New Jersey over the summer and there were obese people as far as the eye could see. I mean, Goddamn.

I wouldn't be so quick to shake the "obese americans lulz" finger at people. Last I heard, both the UK AND Germany weren't far behind the United States when it came to obesity statistics. As yet another fast food/junk food producing nation, you might want to be a little more concerned about that in your own country than others.

Does the website explain what the plan is? No. Do is it say it will not give out federal funds to those schools who don't participate? No. Does it say schools will not graduate those students that don't participate in the program? No.


Speculation? No need for that. That particular website doesn't detail it, but there is another one that does. Specifically quoted from Obama himself. I realize the link is to a blog, so I'll point out that the blog also contains the youtube video which he is directly quoted from.

http://service-learning.blogspot.com/2008/07/obama-addresses-service-learning-and.html

"Just as we teach math and writing, arts and athletics, we need to teach young Americans to take citizenship seriously. Study after study shows that students who serve do better in school, are more likely to go to college, and more likely to maintain tha tservice as adults. So when I'm President, i will set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year. This means that by the time you graduate college, you'll hace done 17 weeks of service.

We'll reach this goal in several ways. At the middle and high school level, we'll make federal assistance conditional on school districts developing service programs, and give schools resources to offer new service opportunities. At the community level, we'll develop public-private partnerships so students can serve more outside the classroom."

Understand that calling a program "Universal Voluntary Service" does not mean that every single aspect of it must or even will be voluntary. That program is a huge one that creates service programs at wide-scale level, and service-learning is only a piece of it.

This is schoolchildren we're talking about not the average joe off the street trying to make a living, and the education they receive in school. Making it a part of the educational system, whereas someone cannot graduate from school if they do not learn what you demand them to is a compulsion. You are required to go to school, you are required to learn what they teach. That makes the plan a form of mandatory labour.

However, that's the way the educational system has always been. Learn what is taught, or you don't graduate. What we have to decide is whether that labour is conducive toward that education, and whether it will instill the values its supposed to. Such education already exists, I had to do some of that kind of service myself. If it really is that valuable, then perhaps we should be thinking about it more seriously than the knee-jerk "omgz, forced labour???" reaction.

Well, isn't this nice, he wants everyone to do their part. Oh wait he's mandating it, this is different. It's one thing to ask everyone to turn down the thermostat, and put on a sweater (or in this case check and properly inflate your tires), it's another thing to twist are arms into doing it. We have that at my school, for the diploma I'm going for I need 60 hours of community service, I'm on my way to getting it, but I'm not sure if on top of schoolwork I can manage a lot of hours every year. This also implies the same logic as a draft, the government owns you and your time, without it you'd be dead, you must do its bidding in order to prove your worth to the government.

He can't mandate it for college students, all he can do is what he stated he'd do - provide a $4,000 tax credit as an incentive to those students that log 100 hours of community service.

Speculation? No need for that. That particular website doesn't detail it, but there is another one that does. Specifically quoted from Obama himself. I realize the link is to a blog, so I'll point out that the blog also contains the youtube video which he is directly quoted from.

I don't see how this invalidates anything I said. At no point in time does it say anything about Force Labor. At best, it substantiates the idea that schools might be compelled to participate by making some federal fund dependent on participation. However, rampant speculation is still involved, just like I said, because the OP didn't simply say "I think schools might be encrouraged to participate by making some funds contingent" but instead said this was forced labor that would force students to participate or not graduate.

I don't see how this invalidates anything I said.

The fact that we've had our tiffs doesn't mean that I disagree with you about everything, no matter what. Yeah, you're right, rampant speculation was involved - that's easily proven simply by visiting the OP's link and noticing that it provides no details whatsoever. I was clarifying that speculation such as this is NOT necessary - Obama detailed himself exactly what he meant in the video.

However, rampant speculation is still involved, just like I said, because the OP didn't simply say "I think schools might be encrouraged to participate by making some funds contingent" but instead said this was forced labor that would force students to participate or not graduate.

Sounds like the only real problem here is the quality of the OP's source, because it doesn't say what he thinks it said. What he said is true, certainly, but his source is far below standard.

It is a form of forced labour, in somuchas the student must do it or not graduate, but as far as "labour" goes, that's a joke. We're talking about volunteer service, which is anything from stuffing envelopes for an outreach program, to slopping food at the local homeless shelter. Not hard physical labour.

It is forced in that Obama intends for it to be equal on the curriculum with prerequisites like math and writing, and he is quoted as saying that they will achieve this goal by making federal assistance contingent on adding it to the curriculum. After all, the plan is no good if you can't get people to go along with you.

Sounds like the only real problem here is the quality of the OP's source, because it doesn't say what he thinks it said. What he said is true, certainly, but his source is far below standard.

Far from it, since a lot, most I would say, of what he said is indeed false. Nothing in the website, nor in your source suggests anything remotely close to "Force Labor", yet that claim is featured prominently in the very title of this thread.

So no, it's a lot more than just the quality of the OP's source.



It is a form of forced labour, in somuchas the student must do it or not graduate, but as far as "labour" goes, that's a joke. The problem is your source doesn't show that. Your source does not say that the student must do it not not graduate. Your source says that Obama was thinking of making some resources contingent on school participation. Not only can a school decide not to participate, but it can decide to participate and not mandate the students to perform the service in order to graduate (or at least Obama doesn't say in what you quoted that the school could not do this).

Both plausible scenarios that do not make it " forced labour in so muchas the student must do it or not graduate".

The problem is your source doesn't show that. Your source does not say that the student must do it not not graduate. Your source says that Obama was thinking of making some resources contingent on school participation. Not only can a school decide not to participate, but it can decide to participate and not mandate the students to perform the service in order to graduate (or at least Obama doesn't say in what you quoted that the school could not do this).

Both plausible scenarios that do not make it " forced labour in so muchas the student must do it or not graduate".

My "source" as you keep referring to him, is Obama himself, quoted in text on a blog. That's straight from the man himself.

He has made it clear, and again you can refer to his own quote to see it, that he expects it to be treated at the same level as math, writing, arts, and athletics, curricula that is standard in schools and expected for progression and graduation, not electives. You don't get to opt out of those courses, except perhaps some of the arts, because they are taken more seriously than electives. They are considered a standard for graduation.

The expectation Obama has is clear. Making funding contingent on compliance is not fucking around, and he didn't say "some resources", he said government assistance. Comply, or get none. He -can- do that, and there's nothing wrong with that, as governments at all levels play a role in the educational system.

Note that the threat of taking away funding is -not- a small thing. While there are certainly other sources of funding, such as the state and local levels, schools constantly face issues of underfunding. No, not all of them, and I'm sure that many of those schools have the option of rejecting it if they don't want to do it. But it's not the schools we're talking about "forcing", it's the students. Any school that takes it up, WILL be forcing their students to labour, but it's not a labour that much different than they already undertake. Homework, phys-ed, all that kind of stuff is compulsory. Students don't get a say. And again, that's not a problem. They don't have to pay for their education, the voters do.

While plausible, I'll point out that like the OP, your scenarios are speculation that are not reflected in Obama's statements.

What it boils down to is this: It IS forced labour.

However, it's important to note that calling it "forced labour" is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction from the same kind of folks that started screaming about socialism when Obama used the words "redistribution of wealth".

It gives the idea more negative impact than it deserves, as if it were slavery, rather than simply another form of basic corriculum.

He has made it clear, and again you can refer to his own quote to see it, that he expects it to be treated at the same level as math, writing, arts, and athletics, curricula that is standard in schools and expected for progression and graduation, not electives.

That's speculation right there. At no point in time does Obama (Happy? I said "source" initially because the link provides more information than just Obama's quote but if you want to limit my comments to Obama only then fine the same point applies) say that he will make them requirements just as math, writing, arts etc. He says: "Just as we teach math and writing, arts and athletics, we need to teach young Americans to take citizenship seriously." which does not necessarily mean that they should be required as well; just, at the very least, that he would like to see this sort of community cooperation taught in schools as well.

So again, calling it forced labor is speculation precisely because there are two scenarios - and those are ones that I thought up of in a few seconds -where students would not be forced.

he didn't say "some resources", he said government assistance. Comply, or get none. He -can- do that, and there's nothing wrong with that, as governments at all levels play a role in the educational system.

"Government assistance" does not mean "all government funding". It can refer to a subset of government funding, thus why I said some resources.

That's speculation right there. At no point in time does Obama (Happy? I said "source" initially because the link provides more information than just Obama's quote but if you want to limit my comments to Obama only then fine the same point applies) say that he will make them requirements just as math, writing, arts etc. He says: "Just as we teach math and writing, arts and athletics, we need to teach young Americans to take citizenship seriously." which does not necessarily mean that they should be required as well; just, at the very least, that he would like to see this sort of community cooperation taught in schools as well.

Honestly, you're niggling so hard on possible other interpretations of this quote, that it seems like you believe the man is ignorant, dishonest or that he didn't actually mean what he said and left a bunch of room for interpretation when it's clear he didn't. Students are expected to take citizenship seriously, and will be taught to... if they feel like taking the class? Are you kidding me, or do you just think that little of the man?

He said that he wanted it to be taken as seriously as maths and other expected curricula. You cannot do that by by making this some sort of optional elective, and I have a hard time believing that you think someone as educated, with as much life experience as he has, is ignorant enough to think he can make people take it seriously by making it into an option.... especially when that option already exists in the form of volunteer service.

Yes, there's the possibility that he's every bit the fucking moron George Bush is and doesn't realize that, but quite frankly... that's speculation.

It could be double-speak, an attempt to present it better than it really is, because he's dishonest... and that would be speculation.

It could be that he has no idea what he's saying, and presented something else entirely other than what he really meant because he can't speak for shit... but that would be speculation, and dishonest speculation at that, because he's clearly good at that.

Taking what someone said at face value, and assuming they are intelligent enough to know what they are talking about is not speculation. There is some assuming required, and as well as a willingness to set aside political cynicism to give them the chance to prove what they say, but that's not speculation.

If you're going to include every single possibility as an interpretation to every political word spoken, you won't get very far. Actions will be the only thing that mean anything, which throws legitimate and rational discussion right out the window. You only have to look at our legal system to see many fine examples of that.

"Government assistance" does not mean "all government funding". It can refer to a subset of government funding, thus why I said some resources.

It can, yet Obama made no reference to them. He referred to it as a whole in a speech that was very specific about his intent. You're speculating about things he didn't say, rather than taking what he did.

Honestly, this sounds less like an attempt to niggle over specifics and more like some ungrounded fear that the words "forced labour", that anything other than the vague interpretation you present to people, will somehow show that Obama's evil. Only the idiots are going to accept that, and those folks already consider him some kind of socialist scumbag. Anyone with a remotely open mind is going to see that for the loaded attack phrase that it is.

Does he or does he not explicitly state that they will be forced to participate in the same way they are "forced" to take math or science? He does not. That's it. There's little else to argue because these ridiculous allegations of yours (that if he left it up to interpretation it must be because he's a moron) are meaningless blather in the end.

You would have a point had I claimed, just as baselessy as you and the OP did, that this will not be forced. I did not. I do not know the future, I don't know what Obama was thinking, and he didn't explicitly state one way or the other. Thus, I'm neutral here: I have merely pointed out, correctly, how Obama has not said they will be forced.

Yay for unpaid child labor.