I crashed my car. Shit happens. It was completely totaled, I got broadsided by a school bus. I live in a fairly isolated community, so not having a car means I'm pretty much stranded, I have to rely on others for transportation and they're all getting pretty tired of it. I've got some money saved and I've started looking at used cars.

I keep hearing lots of conflicting things about the reliability of European cars versus Japanese or American ones. I know parts and repairs tend to cost more but from what I've researched the difference doesn't seem to be as dramatic as some people say. Could anyone shed some light on this? I really like the Saab 900 or Volkswagen Golf and I've seen a few that are within my price range but I really can't afford to have a car that needs constant expensive repairs. Do cars like those normally last for 100,000+ miles without needing more than they're worth in repairs?

Japanese cars seem to have a better reputation in terms of upkeep cost and reliability, is this true of models like the Mazda 626 or Nissan Atima? Will I save a lot of money by buying a Japanese car compared to a European one? I've researched domestic models like the Ford Contour and the Pontiac Sunfire, but according to most of the reviews I've read American cars at this level handle pretty poorly. I drove my girlfriend's Chevrolet Cavalier, which I would assume drives exactly the same as a Sunfire, and I wasn't impressed. Still, if it would end up saving me thousands of dollars compared to a similar European car I can put up with a car that doesn't handle great.

If anyone has an opinion or experience with any of the models I mentioned I'd appreciate hearing about it.

All that talking an no price range defined.

Get a fucking camry.

I'm really not entirely sure what my price range should be to be honest. I was thinking somewhere around $4000, or is that too little to spend if I want a car that's in workable condition, or will anything that cheap have so many problems that they're selling it for cheap to get rid of it?

Man, if you know how to look or get lucky with a friend, that $4k can buy a lot. For that price range, go japanese. If you can find something low miles and cheap (preferably a car that is actually fast or presentable) buy suttin' american. American cars (older and newer) have this nasty tendency to need frequent work around and above 100kmi, although most of the time it is nothing toooo major.

I think I can sum it up thusly:

European: Generally nice, usually very reliable and well made but expensive to buy and to repair.
Japanese: Variable 'niceness' by price, reliable, economical, can be dull/slow, moderately expensive to repair.
American: Cheapest overall by far, affordable performance/plethora of big engines, some good 'sensible' daily driver cars, often less reliable and well made..... but usually the cheapest to fix.

My dad insists that any European car is simply not an option for someone on my budget, but fuck man, even in my limited experience they're pretty consistently much nicer to drive. The interiors are usually pretty fucking sweet too. Plus, everyone has a goddamn Camry or Civic, I know it's silly to let that affect my buying decision but still.

An experienced mechanic I know offered to look at any cars I'm considering but how difficult is it to tell what kind of mechanical condition a car is in with just a cursory examination? Any car in this price range will either have collision damage or over 100,000 miles on it if not both, so getting an accurate idea of the condition of it is very important. Is there anything specific I should watch out for or be sure to check?

When you say European cars are more expensive to maintain, what are we talking, like moderately or will I end up spending thousands more over the course of the car's life? I'm sure it varies quite a bit between different models and individual cars even, but in general. If anyone has any firsthand experience with the frequency at which they're needed and costs of repairs/parts for the Volkswagon Golf or Saab 900 I'd really like to hear about it. Also, if anyone has any suggestions for a model I haven't mentioned that I should consider, please let me know.

You can get a MK4 Jetta/Golf with a 1.8t engine for 4k, easily. Here are a few local ones.
http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/vw-audi-porsche-sale/500054-2001-golf.html
http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/vw-audi-porsche-sale/515736-f-s-00-jetta-glx.html
^5k, but meh


You could probably find a decent one within your price range. I have one, and the more I drive other people's cars in the same price, the more I appreciate mine. The interior is better than any compact in that price range, they look conservative but still good, don't carry a ricer stigma, and are pretty reliable.

You can get a MK4 Jetta/Golf with a 1.8t engine for 4k, easily. Here are a few local ones.
http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/vw-audi-porsche-sale/500054-2001-golf.html
http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/vw-audi-porsche-sale/515736-f-s-00-jetta-glx.html
^5k, but meh


You could probably find a decent one within your price range. I have one, and the more I drive other people's cars in the same price, the more I appreciate mine. The interior is better than any compact in that price range, they look conservative but still good, don't carry a ricer stigma, and are pretty reliable.

The Golf is looking better and better, but there aren't a lot of inexpensive used ones near me, at least not with manual transmissions, which I would very much prefer. From what I've researched the Golf isn't that much more expensive to maintain than a mid size Japanese sedan, I would assume because of it's size.

Also, I've heard that Volkswagens, or European cars in general are more complex and difficult to work on compared to Japanese or American cars. To what extent is this true? Also, what's the aftermarket/performance parts scene like for the Golf? Back in high school I knew someone who's friend in had a Golf he had done some pretty serious work on and I've yet to see another car in person that accelerated faster. I never found out the details but the memory of watching that tiny little bastard fly down the highway is enough to make me want a Golf. It seems like there's a lot of potential in those little boxes, but how much more difficult/expensive would it be compared to being a ricer faggot and installing comparable upgrades in a Civic or something?

Also, I've heard that Volkswagens, or European cars in general are more complex and difficult to work on compared to Japanese or American cars. To what extent is this true?

If you're looking for something that's easy to work on, get an old American Front-engine rear wheel drive. Something with an old Chevy block. These are probably the easiest engines to work on in a car.

And, to some extent the thing about European cars is true. If you get something like a Porsche or a Mercedes, it's going to be hard to work on. You'll need special tools and equipment. Ask sponno about VWs, to be honest I don't know how they are to work on.

Okay, that budget will put you in the late 90s/early 2000s range. By that point in time American manufacturers were finally starting to actually make good cars, so reliability differences between American/Japanese cars of that time are more or less negligible. Japanese cars will cost more to fix since parts have to be imported, and the same goes for European cars (which will break more often).

As for model, I don't know. Pick out something that appeals to you.

The Golf is looking better and better, but there aren't a lot of inexpensive used ones near me, at least not with manual transmissions, which I would very much prefer. From what I've researched the Golf isn't that much more expensive to maintain than a mid size Japanese sedan, I would assume because of it's size.

Also, I've heard that Volkswagens, or European cars in general are more complex and difficult to work on compared to Japanese or American cars. To what extent is this true? Also, what's the aftermarket/performance parts scene like for the Golf? Back in high school I knew someone who's friend in had a Golf he had done some pretty serious work on and I've yet to see another car in person that accelerated faster. I never found out the details but the memory of watching that tiny little bastard fly down the highway is enough to make me want a Golf. It seems like there's a lot of potential in those little boxes, but how much more difficult/expensive would it be compared to being a ricer faggot and installing comparable upgrades in a Civic or something?

Well, as for performance I'll break it down like this. There are three available engines, the VR6, the 1.8t, and the 2.0. Their tuning potential is such
1.8t Good for cheap power, can make 300hp fairly reliably 170~ hp stock
Vr6 If you have money, this enigne can make 600hp all day
2.0 With 5k into the enigne you might see 250 whp. Fuck that.

Red eyed wonda isa former 1.8t owner and modder and he could proabably help you more specifically than I could, but a MKIV with a 1.8t will beat most things on the road with a little bit into it. Most civics and shit run around with mild boost setups, if they're even boosted. 1.8s can run at close to 20 psi without breaking a sweat.

The only problems MKIVsa have are timing belts and water pumps, which should be changed every 50-80k miles (like 500 bucks if you have it done). Other than that, there are a few electronical hiccups now and then (hasn't happened to me personally) and other than that it's pretty solid.

As for working on them, they're not harder to work on, just different. Different as in you need a strategy than you would on a Honda or something. For example, taking the headlights out requires taking off the entire front bumper and grille. It's still only a handful of bolts, but in many cars you don't have to do that.

Okay, that budget will put you in the late 90s/early 2000s range. By that point in time American manufacturers were finally starting to actually make good cars, so reliability differences between American/Japanese cars of that time are more or less negligible. Japanese cars will cost more to fix since parts have to be imported, and the same goes for European cars (which will break more often).

As for model, I don't know. Pick out something that appeals to you.

Horse shit.

The Chevy Malibu from that year needs an alternator every single year, and a front wheel bearing every 6 months, among radiator leaks and some other issues.

The Mercury Cougar from that year range is just generally a piece of shit, I could list a ton of problems with it but that's beyond the scope of this...

The Mercury Mountaineer and Ford Explorer from that era have bad front seat bolts, the interiors are incredibly creaky and squeaky, the exhausts seem to go pretty frequently also.

And these are just 3 vehicles from that era my friends and family have owned and experienced problems with (the data is supported by various reviews I've read online, all detailing the same issues.)

For $4,000 buy a nice condition Honda Prelude, or Toyota Celica. or get a Civic or a Camry, but like you said everyone has one.

You could also get a nice condition 2 door V6 Honda Accord. Practical, nice looking, reliable, and decently sporty.

Avoid automatic transmissions at all cost. You will thank me later.

Also, don't buy a VW Jetta from that year either. They're notorious for electrical issues, the suspension is garbage, and more. We didn't have ours long enough for the engine or transmission to go, but we DID have it long enough for the alarm to stop functioning, the turn signals to need re-wiring, the shocks to fail, and the DOOR TO CATCH ON FIRE. We paid $5,000 and it was a couple years ago.

I don't remember where the Jettas from that year were made, but I think it was Mexico or somewhere else sub-par.

Here are some choices that you can get for $4,000. Anything made by Toyota or Honda is a sure bet of reliability. Nissan is a very close second.

Honda Prelude
Toyota Celica
Honda Accord 2 Door V6 (it's got like 200HP)
Toyota MR-2
MKIII Toyota Supra with low miles
Stick shift Nissan Altima. 2 door V6 preferred!

STICK SHIFT ONLY. No automatics. You will thank me later. Driving stick is not a hassle at all once you learn it, even in traffic. You have far superior car control, and your car will be about one second faster in the 1/4 mile.

I guess the Accord V6 only comes in an automatic, which is a real shame.

Be wary of the advice you get here on Totse. There are a -lot- of Euro/VW fanboys who will steer you wrong.

Stay away from Mitsubishi unless you like fixing your cars minor problems, and stay away from American branded garbage unless you like fixing major problems. And don't buy a late 90's early 2000's Jetta unless you like car fires.

Personally, I'm rooting for you to get a Honda Prelude.

As for working on them, they're not harder to work on, just different. Different as in you need a strategy than you would on a Honda or something. For example, taking the headlights out requires taking off the entire front bumper and grille. It's still only a handful of bolts, but in many cars you don't have to do that.

VW :rolleyes::rolleyes:

They also have WHEEL BOLTS. They're not lug nuts on wheel studs. They are WHEEL BOLTS.

German engineering= Doing everything ass backwards.

Please don't buy a VW. Buy a Honda, Toyota or Nissan. There's a reason they have the reputation of being the most reliable, especially Toyota and Honda.

VW :rolleyes::rolleyes:

They also have WHEEL BOLTS. They're not lug nuts on wheel studs. They are WHEEL BOLTS.

German engineering= Doing everything ass backwards.

Please don't buy a VW. Buy a Honda, Toyota or Nissan.

What's wrong with wheel bolts? BMW, Merc, Lambo, Bugatti, and Porsche all use wheel bolts. Fuck wheel studs. Guess what happens when you strip one or bang a wheel on one when you're mounting em? Not that anyone on this board is likely to be that retarded, it's still a common thing in shops.

And as for Mexican vws, mine was the first year the MKIVs were made, of the first few thousand, and it was made in mexico. This was the most problem prone year, and I havent had any issues at 108k miles.

Fuck wheel bolts, they're a pain in the ass to put back on.

VW :rolleyes::rolleyes:

They also have WHEEL BOLTS. They're not lug nuts on wheel studs. They are WHEEL BOLTS.

German engineering= Doing everything ass backwards.

Please don't buy a VW. Buy a Honda, Toyota or Nissan. There's a reason they have the reputation of being the most reliable, especially Toyota and Honda.

pfft, i have no problems with wheel bolts, makes it easier to put spacers on and get longer wheel bolts on my audi. how do they do spacers on cars with lug nuts? having to get a whole new hub??

they're quite easy to work on, me and my dad replaced the turbo in my older a4 in a days time, did the motor mounts at the same time as well. the bently manuals they have for vw's and audi's make is so easy to work on. a 1.8t isnt too reliable IMO due to the shitty coilpacks in the later ones, but the earlier coilpacks that screw on to the cylinder head are pretty reliable. also they have a pretty low oil capacity, and if the owner didnt do regular oil changes at 3-5k miles with a vw approved full synthetic, you can lose an engine to sludge (this was fixed with the new 2.0t fsi (5.8 quarts in my car), not the same as the 2.slow)



i say go for the saab 900, its from before gm bought them out, and their reliable as hell, or a volvo, like a 240. both cars will last forever with basic maintenance, and they're safe cars as well. the older saabs are quite quirky with their oddly proportioned hatchbacks, and the turbos had some lag. when i was looking at a volvo s60r before i got my current a4, the dealership said the older volvos have an average life expectancy of 500k miles or 18 years. crazy stuff.

with my 02 a4, in 50k miles (from 50k when i got it to 100k when i got rid of it) all i had to do was replace the coil packs ($25 a pop), some evap valve (warranty work, but woulda costed like $60 for a diy), broken oil dipstick tube (reaaaly cheap), timing belt as preventive maintenance ($1200), front cv joints (warranty work, but would have costed about 400$ for the fronts on a diy, the boots ripped, so i had to replace the whole thing, grease got grime in it) and lastly the turbo died at 72k and motor mounts (about $1k for the mounts and turbo, one mount was leaking because it was a hydraulic mount, so i went for upgraded ones, and went for an upgraded turbo because it was actually not much different in price than oem). the previous owner was lax on the oil changes, or my turbo would have lasted much longer, and he/she possibly didnt give it much of a cool down time either. a 1.8t will be reliable as long as the owner treated it right from day one with oil changes.

so i guess in summation, dont get a 1.8t if you dont want to have to put money into it, unless you want to mod it much. a vr6 or 2.slow would be more reliable. but as i said above, go saab or volvo if you want true reliablility, nobody can compete with them. not even any american / euro / jap car except the old benz diesels. actually you might be able to find one in your price range if the hippies hadnt bought them up already and converted them to run on rainbows and veggie oil.

Fuck wheel bolts, they're a pain in the ass to put back on.

theres a tool in the kit thats came with all my audis thats like a threaded plastic stick you stick in to line up the rest of em. the first time i tried to do it without using that plastic tool it was a major pain in the ass, but after i found out was it was for, it actually wasnt that bad. but yea, lug nuts are easier to change.

A threaded plastic stick. A FUCKING THREADED PLASTIC STICK.

"What happens when you wanna put spacers on a car with wheel studs?"

You get longer studs, or recessed lugs.

Wheel studs are replaceable. You just hammer them out and put a new one in.

If you strip out the holes that you put your stupid ass wheel bolts into.... GOOD LUCK.

A threaded plastic stick. A FUCKING THREADED PLASTIC STICK.

Wheel studs are replaceable. You just hammer them out and put a new one in.


to quote an old commerical "plastics make it possible"

hrmm.. hammering out some studs to put longer ones in, or having smaller lug nuts doesnt sound quite too safe to me compared to just getting longer bolts. its part of the whole safety thing the germans go for.

how the hell would i strip out those holes. using a torque wrench and proper specs and that shit doesnt happen.

its not hard at all to change the wheels. given oem, sure lug nuts are easier, but once you get into having to use spacers, bolts are the way to go. or you could be cool and use a one lug system like race cars. porsche is doing it and i think novatec has em for ferrari's

http://wot.motortrend.com/6329865/auto-news/porsche-to-offer-center-locking-wheels-on-2009-911-turbo/index.html

http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto-news/porsche-to-offer-center-locking-wheels-on-2009-911-turbo/11193405+w562+cr1+re0+ar1/porsche-center-locking-wheel-and-hub.jpg

much better than either, dont you think?

If you strip out the holes that you put your stupid ass wheel bolts into.... GOOD LUCK.

Step 1. lift 25 lb wheel on to stud while car is at an inopportune height (near the ground or above your shoulders)
Step 2. slip up, and the center of the wheel hits one of the bolts
Step 3. part of the threading on the hub's stud gets mashed up, stud is broked
Step 4 . ???
Step 5. RAGE

Step 1. lift 25 lb wheel on to stud while car is at an inopportune height (near the ground or above your shoulders)
Step 2. slip up, and the center of the wheel hits one of the bolts
Step 3. part of the threading on the hub's stud gets mashed up, stud is broked
Step 4 . ???
Step 5. RAGE

yep

and for the vw/audi/euro stuff

step 1: use plastic tool to stick in the hub
step 2: lift wheel on to the hub, the hubcentric ring holds the wheel (if you skipped step one, you can rotate the wheel around until it lines up the bolt holes, the hub centricness keeps the wheel on the hub without it falling off)
step 3: screw bolts in. or get mad because you bumped the wheel and it fell on your foot.
step 4: repeat 1-3 or ????
step 5: be happy that you have a better engineered car :P


edit: anyways you should check out my post on the brabus b10 thing a little down on gearheads, went to a euro meet today and saw some amazing cars.

hrmm.. hammering out some studs to put longer ones in, or having smaller lug nuts doesnt sound quite too safe to me compared to just getting longer bolts. its part of the whole safety thing the germans go for.

how the hell would i strip out those holes. using a torque wrench and proper specs and that shit doesnt happen.

Say you cross thread the hole, or whatever. It happens. Bolt holes strip.

Hammering out studs to put in longer ones so you can put in some spacers is a once in a lifetime thing. On a 3000GT, you can fit up to 5mm spacers without changing any hardware whatsoever.

And you don't get smaller lug nuts, you get ones that are recessed around the inner center so that they can engage more threads. You need 7 full threads to be safe.

And getting longer studs is probably safer than getting longer bolts, since the studs are anchored to the hub.

Ask Nereth which is safer, I'm sure he'll work some physics out.

I prefer studs purely because I find them easier to fit a wheel on. It's annoying to try and hold a wheel on a hub and try to spin it so it lines up. The hubs rarely seem to hold the wheel well enough, and spinning the wheel usually results in the hub spinning with it.

Say you cross thread the hole, or whatever. It happens. Bolt holes strip.

Hammering out studs to put in longer ones so you can put in some spacers is a once in a lifetime thing. On a 3000GT, you can fit up to 5mm spacers without changing any hardware whatsoever.

And you don't get smaller lug nuts, you get ones that are recessed around the inner center so that they can engage more threads. You need 7 full threads to be safe.

And getting longer studs is probably safer than getting longer bolts, since the studs are anchored to the hub.

Ask Nereth which is safer, I'm sure he'll work some physics out.

5MM? Whoa. Porsche's can fir 65mm in the rears without mods!

I crashed my car. Shit happens. It was completely totaled, I got broadsided by a school bus. I live in a fairly isolated community, so not having a car means I'm pretty much stranded, I have to rely on others for transportation and they're all getting pretty tired of it. I've got some money saved and I've started looking at used cars.

I keep hearing lots of conflicting things about the reliability of European cars versus Japanese or American ones. I know parts and repairs tend to cost more but from what I've researched the difference doesn't seem to be as dramatic as some people say. Could anyone shed some light on this? I really like the Saab 900 or Volkswagen Golf and I've seen a few that are within my price range but I really can't afford to have a car that needs constant expensive repairs. Do cars like those normally last for 100,000+ miles without needing more than they're worth in repairs?

Japanese cars seem to have a better reputation in terms of upkeep cost and reliability, is this true of models like the Mazda 626 or Nissan Atima? Will I save a lot of money by buying a Japanese car compared to a European one? I've researched domestic models like the Ford Contour and the Pontiac Sunfire, but according to most of the reviews I've read American cars at this level handle pretty poorly. I drove my girlfriend's Chevrolet Cavalier, which I would assume drives exactly the same as a Sunfire, and I wasn't impressed. Still, if it would end up saving me thousands of dollars compared to a similar European car I can put up with a car that doesn't handle great.

If anyone has an opinion or experience with any of the models I mentioned I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Toyota Hilux Diesel..vehical of choice for insurgents and cheap armies everywhere..because you just can't kill it. Search for it on youtube with top gear. I know a guy who had the non diesel version and it had 300k miles on it and it still ran great....The cars above aren't great high miliage cars....only if you have money for repairs...if not...get a toyota or a lexus...same engines.

What do you need in the car/truck you are looking for? Is it just for the sake of having a car for A-B trips or what?

Toyota Hilux Diesel....can't kill it search for it on youtube with top gear. I know a guy who had the non diesel version and it had 300k miles on it and it still ran great....The cars above aren't great high miliage cars....only if you have money for repairs...if not...get a toyota or a lexus...same engines.

What do you need in the car/truck you are looking for? Is it just for the sake of having a car for A-B trips or what?

cant get a hilux diesel in the us. its called the tacoma here, and its been modified somewhat for the us market, from the wiki:
"The Tacoma and Hilux share the same body, but the chassis is significantly different in the Tacoma and believed to be much weaker. "

http://i35.tinypic.com/oaucqo.jpg
not really contributing but, those crazy vdubbers....


i like the euro enthusiast community over the jdm / domestic. the people are friendlier. domestic people are set in their ways, and jdm (for the most part) are ricers who are all about hp/l like that means something significant

http://i35.tinypic.com/oaucqo.jpg
not really contributing but, those crazy vdubbers....


i like the euro enthusiast community over the jdm / domestic. the people are friendlier. domestic people are set in their ways, and jdm (for the most part) are ricers who are all about hp/l like that means something significant

Meh, there are a few dub-tards who think quality is measured in oilpan count.

What do you need in the car/truck you are looking for? Is it just for the sake of having a car for A-B trips or what?

I need it to commute to work and school, but I would very much like to have the best possible performance for the money. It's not really about racing or showing off though, I just genuinely enjoy driving.

How much can you spend/are you willing to spend?

I need it to commute to work and school, but I would very much like to have the best possible performance for the money. It's not really about racing or showing off though, I just genuinely enjoy driving.

volvo or older saab. maybe a 240 or 244 turbo volvo. as i stated above. or 80's benz, the 190 2.3 is a pretty good performer, dont know how much those are going for nowadays

Meh, there are a few dub-tards who think quality is measured in oilpan count.

LOL, yeah, in the euro crowd, those kind of dubbers are the red-headed step-child.

the whole stretch and poke thing with the wheels looks like shit to me. why get wide ass wheels and skinny ass tires? rash the wheels up easier?

How much can you spend/are you willing to spend?

Absolute maximum would be $5000 I guess.

5MM? Whoa. Porsche's can fir 65mm in the rears without mods!

Wtf? Do you realize how big that is?

I don't think you can fit 65mm spacers on there without mods. If so, what?

Is that because you put a 7.5cm wheel bolt in there, or what? And who the hell makes a 65mm spacer? The biggest I see generally are 10-15mm.

Even if it's slightly easier to put spacers on with wheel bolts, it doesn't make wheel bolts better.

To the OP:

If you genuinely enjoy driving, don't get a Jetta, lol.

I'm telling you man, a Honda Prelude. A Saab turbo would be nice too, and are pretty reliable. Prelude FTW though, honestly. This comes from someone who drives a Mitsu 3000GT... I honestly think your best bet for a reliable $5,000 car is a Prelude.

^Seen it done. Wheels with a lil less dish and anywhere from 50-65mm spacers can get fitted, it's common on 911 with already fat asses. Looks sick imo. I saw one with 295?'s on the back and hella spacers. Shit looked so hot.

http://supercar-engineering.com/images/SC1-Ging1.jpg


This car has 3 somethings on the back. 315's maybe. I can't remember, but they're fucking huge. It's Phil Glazatov's car, the guy that owns Super Car engineeering.

Anyway, I like superhuge tires on deep dish wheels.

I'm gonna second on the prelude or maybe a celica. Both are good dailies, reliable, and perform well. They also fit into your price range reasonably (as in you don't have to settle for a beat to shit one or super high miles, although both can be overpriced sometimes). I'm partial to the celica but I've been in some preludes and they are decent. They have FWD.... unless you get that SIIIIICK celica turbo 4wd FUCKING DROOL...... but you don't sound like it matters and they still handle well.

I would recommend against the Saabs. IME, they are dull and the performance has failed to impress, even the newer ones. Older volvos can be VERY hit and miss on performance but ARE very reliable. A lot of older ones are simply dull performers, but some of the models are pretty punchy... less of them handle well though.... for your price range you're not going to get a good one without some luck. You can find a newer one but it will be a base model AND have high miles. Just because the engines last forever doesn't mean they won't need more frequent maintenance as they age.

Cheapest power is american. Good luck with the handling though.

I was recommending the Prelude over the celica, because I don't think you can get a 2000+ Celica for 5 grand.

The other ones are kind of dull. Although the ST205 is pretty nice. (ST205 is the body style, it's the one before the 2000+ one... I forget Celica gens.)

please get a stick, no matter what.

i still stand by the saab 9000 turbo, the '98s are going for like $5k, 175 hp turbo-4 and character. older volvos have surprisingly good handling, and amazing reliability, the 240 is a solid car and also the volvo 240 turbo had a successful career racing, heres from the wiki

"Volvo campaigned the 240 saloon in the European Touring car championship in the 1980s. The 240 had reasonable success securing a number of wins including the winning the ETCC, beating the Rover SD1, BMW 3-Series and Jaguar XJS-R Touring cars. At the hands of kiwi Robbie Francevic, the Volvo 240 also won the 1986 Australian Touring Car Championship and the Wellington 500 street race in New Zealand.
The car also successfully won the Guia Race in Macau consecutively in 1985 and 1986.
Because it is cheap and robust, the 240 has also become very common in folkrace competitions and the VOC (Volvo Original Cup)."

get a toyota.

I was recommending the Prelude over the celica, because I don't think you can get a 2000+ Celica for 5 grand.

The other ones are kind of dull. Although the ST205 is pretty nice. (ST205 is the body style, it's the one before the 2000+ one... I forget Celica gens.)

please get a stick, no matter what.

ST205 is the 6th gen. The ST205 GT-Four is the greatest Celica ever produced in my opinion. Especially if it happens to be the Group A Rallye limited edition, and has the Castrol livery and red mud flaps just for fun.

6th gen > 1st gen > 5th gen > last gen



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Celica_ra28.jpghttp://images.carcraft.com/featuredvehicles/76456_large+1969_Ford_Mustang_Fastback+driver_rear _side_view.jpg

I see you guys are still flinging the same old shit around.

Buy a Volkswagen Golf or Jetta, preferably a mk.2. They're dirt cheap to buy, and if you get a diesel, dirt cheap to run. Anybody who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. And anybody who says having wheel bolts is a bad thing (Seph, that's the same point you've made since forever. Is that the only reason you hate VW's? Pretty illogical if you ask me) also has no idea what they're talking about, with a car like a golf where the wheels are generally 14 or 15 inchers, Bolts are hardly a big deal and in my experience not difficult to work with at all. And honestly, what a stupid reason to put you off a car!

Otherwise, fuck all this lot off and get a Toyota Corolla. It won't break. They're dirt cheap. They were built to function without fault. And if you go for either car mentioned, you'll find they actually drive and handle competently, as opposed to an American car that won't (do NOT buy a cavalier/sunfire. 'Piece of shit' doesn't begin to describe them)

one thing to add is to make sure that whatever car you get, if it has a timing belt, make sure it has been changed if the car has high miles. last thing you want to do is pop that thing and require a new head, if its an interference motor. timing belt jobs can be expensive or a lot of work to do.

Ever driven the newer saabs in question? I thrashed one for a couple hours and my impression was of a laggy and otherwise unremarkable wannabe-sporty failed luxury car. And ugly too.
My point on the volvos was more that you have to find 'the right one' and they will universally have high miles.

Celica GT-4... urge to masturbate..... anyway if that's the 6th gen then that is my favorite (the one with two circular lights). My friend had a base model 5spd one and it made an excellent semi-sporty and economical daily. Plus you should have seen the abuse it took without ANYTHING going except failures due to related body damage. The fucking thing looked like it got t-boned by a truck (Literally) and then run off some jumps. It still managed to track pretty straight on the highway...heh.
Also, if you can afford an OK prelude you can get the celica for probably less. The gen prior (5th apparently) was good too. Fuck the new ones.

Celica GT-4... urge to masturbate..... anyway if that's the 6th gen then that is my favorite (the one with two circular lights). My friend had a base model 5spd one and it made an excellent semi-sporty and economical daily. Plus you should have seen the abuse it took without ANYTHING going except failures due to related body damage. The fucking thing looked like it got t-boned by a truck (Literally) and then run off some jumps. It still managed to track pretty straight on the highway...heh.
Also, if you can afford an OK prelude you can get the celica for probably less. The gen prior (5th apparently) was good too. Fuck the new ones.

For sure catscratch! One and the same.
http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img5148filteredjv0.jpghttp://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6994/img5148filteredjv0.jpg ST205 = 6th gen = dual round headlights, ST185 = 5th Gen, popup headlights with a rounded body, ST165 = 4th Gen, square body with popup headlights.

I see you guys are still flinging the same old shit around.

Buy a Volkswagen Golf or Jetta, preferably a mk.2. They're dirt cheap to buy, and if you get a diesel, dirt cheap to run. Anybody who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. And anybody who says having wheel bolts is a bad thing (Seph, that's the same point you've made since forever. Is that the only reason you hate VW's? Pretty illogical if you ask me) also has no idea what they're talking about, with a car like a golf where the wheels are generally 14 or 15 inchers, Bolts are hardly a big deal and in my experience not difficult to work with at all. And honestly, what a stupid reason to put you off a car!

Otherwise, fuck all this lot off and get a Toyota Corolla. It won't break. They're dirt cheap. They were built to function without fault. And if you go for either car mentioned, you'll find they actually drive and handle competently, as opposed to an American car that won't (do NOT buy a cavalier/sunfire. 'Piece of shit' doesn't begin to describe them)

Agreed about the Cavalier/sunfire.

and no, it wasn't just the wheel bolts.

It was that the car was underpowered, the suspension shit the bed, and it caught on fire.

Does anyone have any opinions or information about the Nissan 200SX? It seems like the counterpart the the Prelude and Celica, both of which look like very good, financially possible options. A Golf or Jetta diesel also seems like a good idea, but I can't find any listings for them. As much as I'd love to have a Saab or Volvo I can't risk spending what little I have on a car that might require frequent, expensive repairs to remain drivable.

A Japanese car is a much surer bet from what I've researched. It doesn't look like parts for the Celica or Prelude cost more than Corolla parts, is the Corolla less prone to failure or is there really not that much of a difference in operating costs?

Well the Corolla and the Celica share a lot of parts.

The Celica is pretty damn low cost to operate. We have a 7th gen (2000) with 114k miles, and it runs like a top. No maintenance, knock on wood.

Cars like the Celica and Prelude are not really sports cars, just sporty cars. So they share things like door locks, window motors, starters, water pumps, engine blocks (with different heads/cams, and maybe different internals) with other cars in the Toyota/Honda lineup.

I don't know exactly what they share, but I'm guesstimating.

Regardless, the parts are surprisingly common and cheap. This also means that they are similarly reliable to the cars they share parts with.

A higher performance car will probably have been mistreated more than a Corolla. People like to beat the crap out of their Celicas and Preludes, so do your best to find the one in the best condition available. Also, the engines in Celicas are usually tuned for more power than in a Corolla. The higher performance tune means a little more wear on the engine, but there's no reason it won't go 200k miles. Honestly, the cost to own between the two should not be much different.

I love the 6th gen Celica, but in my opinion the 7th gen GT-S is the best for most people.

The ST205 GT-4 with the 3S-GTE engine is by far the best Celica ever, but most people do not need the maintenance of a turbo all wheel drive car. It's a real shame they stopped producing them this way.

The 7th gen has the most modern styling, offers a 181HP 1.8L 2ZZ-FE engine with a 6 speed transmission, and weighs in at like 2500 lbs. It's newish, nice interior, etc.

The older RWD ones are a completely different animal, and can't really be compared to the 4WD and FWD models. They're kick-ass though. Most casual drivers would be better off with the 6th or 7th gen though.

I was thinking the newish prelude with the H22A engine. The one with the kind of squarish body with the nice angles. I'm not sure how much they cost though. The older preludes are kind of meh in comparison.

Did the 6th gen Celica offer anything powerful enough to compete with the same year Prelude, other than the GT4?

I don't think he'll ever find or afford a GT-4. It's just way too fucking awesome.

Toyota engines are designed to run at about 70% of capacity so they last an awfully long time.

My cressida has done around 276600km and is still running fine.

Used car tip: Don't be the guy who's question I came across on Yahoo Answers.
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=holyfrikkinshitzl3.jpg

How could I forget the 240? If the OP is looking for something sportier, with tons of potential and in a RWD configuration, you can get a nice 240 for the price. Just make sure it hasn't been thrashed, ricing and modification are almost always indications of this. The 200sx was just the old sentra or altima I believe. They are fine if a bit boring. I've always been partial to the pulsar/nx1600 but they don't make good ones in the US and it is certainly going to be small and purely economical.

And for sportier still, there is the 300zx. You can get a nice non turbo one for the price. It will keep you amused for a while and they are pretty solid. Sure the non turbo is nothing too special, but 220hp+ stock and RWD should keep a novice --> intermediate driver occupied. And you can always modify it for more power than you should need.

Used car tip: Don't be the guy who's question I came across on Yahoo Answers.
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=holyfrikkinshitzl3.jpg

Pure gold

'The jerkings are kinda annoying for passengers, especially for the ladies'

lol. I'll help him out by using my special white glue. It'll stick, and please his lady friends that can't stand his jerking!

Agreed about the Cavalier/sunfire.

and no, it wasn't just the wheel bolts.

It was that the car was underpowered, the suspension shit the bed, and it caught on fire.

"The" car? Is this the Jetta your family owned a few years ago? Wasn't it a basic mk.3? :rolleyes:

Whatever. I'm not going to argue getting a Toyota in any case. The difference between the Corolla and the Prelude and Celica is that the Prelude and Celica are a bit more "sporty" and the Corolla was designed specifically to be an indestructible economy car, and it more or less is.

In my experience though, a Diesel powered VW offers 900+ KMs to the tank. Uber-mileage. I don't know about the mk.3s or mk.4s, they have a reputation for less than perfect handling, but the mk.2 drives beautifully as does the current mk.5, but a mk.5 would obviously be out of the question. The non-turbo diesels are pretty slow, though.

Seph, are you bitching about the suspension technology or reliability? Mine has independent rears, which is crazy for a 1990s car that cost 17 new.

Seph, are you bitching about the suspension technology or reliability? Mine has independent rears, which is crazy for a 1990s car that cost 17 new.

I was gonna say, The Golfs/Jettas definetely were never under powered for what they are, And despite the mk.3s and mk.4s being a bit heavier and flabbier, they always had wonderful handling. As for them catching fire, I've never seen such a case for myself. I doubt any Volkswagen would just blow up on its own. Blow its engine maybe, but blow UP?? I would think there would have to be extrenuating (sic?) circumstances.

I was gonna say, The Golfs/Jettas definetely were never under powered for what they are, And despite the mk.3s and mk.4s being a bit heavier and flabbier, they always had wonderful handling. As for them catching fire, I've never seen such a case for myself. I doubt any Volkswagen would just blow up on its own. Blow its engine maybe, but blow UP?? I would think there would have to be extrenuating (sic?) circumstances.

www.metacafe.com/watch/1317088/vw_golf_catches_fire/

www.metacafe.com/watch/1317088/vw_golf_catches_fire/

The fact that he drilled into the fucking dash to mount his OMGZ GAGEZZZ says a lot about his workmanship on the turbo swap.

I was gonna say, The Golfs/Jettas definetely were never under powered for what they are, And despite the mk.3s and mk.4s being a bit heavier and flabbier, they always had wonderful handling. As for them catching fire, I've never seen such a case for myself. I doubt any Volkswagen would just blow up on its own. Blow its engine maybe, but blow UP?? I would think there would have to be extrenuating (sic?) circumstances.

I'm bitching that the suspension itself failed.

The spring on one popped out of the top of the strut mount, and 3 of the shocks were bad.

I don't know what year it was.

It didn't have many miles on it, either.

The car didn't blow up, the door caught on fire. The wiring inside the door must have melted together or something. I had to disconnect the door's plug from the rest of the car so it was able to be driven again.

I'm bitching that the suspension itself failed.

The spring on one popped out of the top of the strut mount, and 3 of the shocks were bad.

I don't know what year it was.

It didn't have many miles on it, either.

The car didn't blow up, the door caught on fire. The wiring inside the door must have melted together or something. I had to disconnect the door's plug from the rest of the car so it was able to be driven again.

LOL, probably a mk.3.

I remember that video of the Golf catching fire, seems to me it was down to questionable tinkering by the owner more than anything else..