Forgive me for being born in 1990, so I really don't know the whole history of how the U.S. started buying more imports than domestics. Can someone please enlighten me, or give me a link to somewhere where I could read about it? Thanks.

P.S.- It's 1:30 here and I'm tired, so if this is incoherent, I'll rephrase it later.

Last month

HAHA! You're a CHILD!

HAHA! You're a CHILD!

He's older than me, sadly.

He's older than me, sadly.

Your story seems...accelerated.

Your story seems...accelerated.

Nigga what?

Your responses are pertinent to my question...

So, how are you doing?

The whole "economic crisis" is a fucking joke. Kind of funny though, listening to the radio/news, I never would have though they could manage to say "tough economic times" in so many different ways, so many times. I'm sure they have a fucking hidden agenda, fuck them all.

Who's down for molotiving their nearest city hall in protest? Huh?! :mad:

"The troubles all began with the passing of the old king, Lord Ironfist."

<diskscratch>

Ooook, wrong one. The main problem was that the big 3 bet on the wrong horse. They successfully lobbied the government to protect their most profitable venue, namely trucks and truck-chassis-derived SUVs (stuff like preferential taxes on imports, reclassifying some vehicles etc.). As anyone with 50% more neurons than a baboon knows, this is a really stupid idea in the long term. The correct way is to game the gov't into armour-plating your unprofitable segment. This way, if it remains unprofitable you wouldn't have lost anything, but if it somehow turns profitable you're golden. If your most lucrative venue suddenly becomes unprofitable, all the protectionist measures won't amount to shit and you won't have an alternate product line to fall upon, since you've ignored it for a long time and the consumers don't trust you further than they can throw you when you say "I'm better now".

He's older than me, sadly.

My girlfriend is about the same age as you. MAKES ME FEEL OLD and lucky.

We could be saying bye-bye to GM very soon. They lost something like 40 billion revenue in 2007, their sales in the US fell by 45%, and their stock and assets in SUVs fell 75% in value. They were trying to save themselves by offering a merger with Chrysler for their 51% share in GMAC but it has fallen through. As I understand it, they need around $10bn a year to operate, and currently have $15bn in their coffers. They are projected as running around $4bn net loss and in the last quarter they lost something like $2bn. Unless someone bails them out (i.e. the US government with a $10bn loan) and they form a merger with Chrysler, I reckon they're fucked.

history of how the U.S. started buying more imports than domestics

I don't believe this has happened... The only thing that could be construed as this is mistaking production figures for Japanese automotive manufacturers for "America bought this many autos" without realizing that Japanese and American manufacturers sell in global markets.

stuff like preferential taxes on imports

What's wrong with that? They can build factories here and employ workers here if they want the market so bad. Japan has tariffs on our cars but we don't have any on theirs. Many of their factories were also lured to American shores with contracts that said they would pay no state taxes.

It's simple economics and American stupidity. On the economics front Japanese manufacturers, for what they make here, don't allow unions and pay their employees less than UAW members. They also don't have to support lots of different brands like GM. American manufacturers bet on large vehicles because that's what stupid Americans bought. It's the free market and it doesn't work when you have idiots who support your business. Sorry GM, you were too naive to think your customers would think about high gas prices and buy smaller.

Companies can't just throw out billions of dollars of tools and equipment over a couple years because they need to build different cars. That's money that they don't have. Toyota and Honda don't have those retooling costs because they never had huge SUV/truck production figures. Honda has, what, just the Ridgeline? And Toyota the Tundra, Tocoma, and that other SUV?

What's wrong with that? They can build factories here and employ workers here if they want the market so bad. Japan has tariffs on our cars but we don't have any on theirs.

There's nothing inherently wrong with fiscal tools. The problem lies in the way the big 3 used them. They should have first patched that large hole in the arse of their collective knickers (the car segment) before thinking about milking their truck/SUV segment for all its worth.

My girlfriend is about the same age as you. MAKES ME FEEL OLD and lucky.

Aren't you like, 21 or something?

Yeah. But she's three years younger than me

Here's how I believe things went down:

Back in the 80s, the Big 3 made a bunch of shitty cars. So shitty, in fact, that people largely began to turn towards imports for the car segment of the market. Thus, in the 90s, the Big 3 figured out that they were beat in the small car market. Their response was to throw all their chips behind trucks and SUVs, which had high enough profit margins and sold well enough that they could almost forget the small car market, save for a few shitty token models.

Then, in the 2000s, their quality actually started to catch up and even out with the imports. Nobody really noticed this, and stuck to the reputation that American cars are shitty. When gas prices started going through the roof around '06 or so, the truck and SUV market almost completely dissapeared. Trucks were demonized by the media, and people flocked to fuel-efficient small cars. If you've been paying attention, you'll remember that the Big 3 have shit for small cars. Thus, their profit dissapeared, and they've been losing money ever since.

Then, in the 2000s, their quality actually started to catch up

2 out of 10

I don't believe this has happened... The only thing that could be construed as this is mistaking production figures for Japanese automotive manufacturers for "America bought this many autos" without realizing that Japanese and American manufacturers sell in global markets.

It has happened, the big 3 now only control 47% of the US auto market. But obviously with the Euro imports being included in the other 53%, the Japanese have not eclipsed the big 3.

Here's how I believe things went down:

Back in the 80s, the Big 3 made a bunch of shitty cars. So shitty, in fact, that people largely began to turn towards imports for the car segment of the market. Thus, in the 90s, the Big 3 figured out that they were beat in the small car market. Their response was to throw all their chips behind trucks and SUVs, which had high enough profit margins and sold well enough that they could almost forget the small car market, save for a few shitty token models.

Then, in the 2000s, their quality actually started to catch up and even out with the imports. Nobody really noticed this, and stuck to the reputation that American cars are shitty. When gas prices started going through the roof around '06 or so, the truck and SUV market almost completely dissapeared. Trucks were demonized by the media, and people flocked to fuel-efficient small cars. If you've been paying attention, you'll remember that the Big 3 have shit for small cars. Thus, their profit dissapeared, and they've been losing money ever since.

This is a pretty accurate description. I would add that it really started in the 1950s and 60s with the concessions the big 3 made to the UAW when times were good. The big 3 made big cars for our big country with big roads, import brands made smaller cars for smaller countries with smaller roads. The 1973 Arab oil embargo (and related fuel supply issues through the 70s,) meant that small cars started selling, thus the imports could gain a significant foothold during that decade. With increased fuel economy standards of the 1980s exacerbating the issue, small cars started selling even better, a trend that has only continued (with the exception of the SUV boom of the 90s.)

This is a pretty accurate description. I would add that it really started in the 1950s and 60s with the concessions the big 3 made to the UAW when times were good. The big 3 made big cars for our big country with big roads, import brands made smaller cars for smaller countries with smaller roads. The 1973 Arab oil embargo (and related fuel supply issues through the 70s,) meant that small cars started selling, thus the imports could gain a significant foothold during that decade. With increased fuel economy standards of the 1980s exacerbating the issue, small cars started selling even better, a trend that has only continued (with the exception of the SUV boom of the 90s.)

Good additions. You can't blame them for everything, but the inflated costs of the UAW have caused quite a problem. The worst of it is retirement/pension/healthcare costs. GM alone currently has over a million ex-workers they are sending money to who haven't touched an assembly line in years, not to mention current employees who are making significantly more than Toyota or Honda's American workers. The UAW has been extremely reluctant to give any ground to the Big 3, apparently even at the risk of putting all their members out of work.

IMO, the only thing that will save them is some extremely radical restructuring, including nearly eliminating truck production and replacing it with current and new car designs. Hell, they've got stuff on the market in Europe right now that should be brought to the States right away. I drove a Saturn Astra (rebadged Opel Astra) and those are strait awesome cars, and a great example of what GM should be doing.

I still think Ford should just scrap all its American made cars and just release LHD versions of their much better european and australian models. At least GM is bringing out the Astra and Commodore.

I don't know how the logistics of all that would work, but then guys like me who easily buy into the "american cars are crap" ethos will take a second look when they realize they aren't selling american cars. Thus Ford can win over some normally import-only owners and make a bit of money. Even I would consider a new ford if I had the money for a new car. Which I don't. I'm spending far too much money on internet cafes :mad:

Ford is probably in the best shape of the 3 at the moment. Then again, that's like being the smartest kid with Down Syndrome.

Ford is probably in the best shape of the 3 at the moment. Then again, that's like being the smartest kid with Down Syndrome.

Or the funniest kid to steal quotes from B-movies.

Soon as they thought everyone wanted SUV's. Dumb fucks. Whats wrong with a 4cyl 2L car? It gets better economy, can still pull 5-6 people(although not as good as a suv), most have better ground clearance then the average suv, and are cheaper.

Give the companies a few years to realize their mistakes and they should be fine. But otherwise kiss the companies bye bye(or move em to china to save alot of money on wages)

Or the funniest kid to steal quotes from B-movies.

I hoped someone would get that.

Soon as they thought everyone wanted SUV's. Dumb fucks. Whats wrong with a 4cyl 2L car? It gets better economy, can still pull 5-6 people(although not as good as a suv), most have better ground clearance then the average suv, and are cheaper.

Give the companies a few years to realize their mistakes and they should be fine. But otherwise kiss the companies bye bye(or move em to china to save alot of money on wages)

To be fair, they were responding to what the market wanted. Their mistake was neglecting everything else.

I still think Ford should just scrap all its American made cars and just release LHD versions of their much better european and australian models. At least GM is bringing out the Astra and Commodore.

I don't know how the logistics of all that would work, but then guys like me who easily buy into the "american cars are crap" ethos will take a second look when they realize they aren't selling american cars. Thus Ford can win over some normally import-only owners and make a bit of money. Even I would consider a new ford if I had the money for a new car. Which I don't. I'm spending far too much money on internet cafes :mad:

Well, they're starting (http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/new-european-ford-fiesta-coming-to-usa-with-mondeo-on-its-way-ar28690.html) to do just that.

Well, they're starting (http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/new-european-ford-fiesta-coming-to-usa-with-mondeo-on-its-way-ar28690.html) to do just that.

Goody. Now all we need is the Falcon and the Focus ST. And the Focus RS.

http://www.finalreality.net/images/2009%20Ford%20Focus%20RS/Ford%20Focus%20RS%200.jpg

It's got 300 HP. And front wheel drive, but a trick LSD to handle it. Don't know if Ford can pull it off, but before anyone dismisses it as a front-driver with too much grunt, It could turn out to handle quite well. I'm certainly hopeful, considering how it looks. And it's got a Turbo 5 cyl.

Goody. Now all we need is the Falcon and the Focus ST. And the Focus RS.

http://www.finalreality.net/images/2009%20Ford%20Focus%20RS/Ford%20Focus%20RS%200.jpg

It's got 300 HP. And front wheel drive, but a trick LSD to handle it. Don't know if Ford can pull it off, but before anyone dismisses it as a front-driver with too much grunt, It could turn out to handle quite well. I'm certainly hopeful, considering how it looks. And it's got a Turbo 5 cyl.

http://p.webwombat.com.au/motoring/images/aurion-trd-big.jpg

I still wouldn't drive a Camry, but give me one person who wouldn't drive the Focus RS and I'll drink melamine infused milk.

If the slightly more powerful Toyota Aurion (an outrageous 323hp) gives any indication at all the Focus should fare well enough that you don't know it's FWD until you go to throw it through a corner, and then its behaviour will be passable even by RWD standards. That theory is of course after taking into consideration the Focus's previous record for superb FWD handling, and Ford's investment in eliminating as much torque steer as possible.

There will still be some no matter how much chassis tweaking they do and fucking around with the suspension to make it feel like it's doing something it's not (or, rather, not doing something it is), but you'd have to be giving it a bootful (or lifting off, perhaps) to find that out.

It's going to be a pretty insane little car in the city. Maybe there is such thing as the Front Wheel Drive sports car after all.

Maybe there is such thing as the Front Wheel Drive sports car after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times


8:22 2008 Chevrolet Cobalt SS verified manufacturer time
8:22 Nissan Skyline GT-R R32 Best Motoring Video Special DVD


Uh huh.

I thought when this thread started I wouldn't add my $0.02 worth in, but I think I will anyway.

I was waiting to see how the masses stood on the subject and see if there were some valid points made, which there were.
What I didn't see touched on is the fact that chrysler has been to this point before and Lee Iaacoca stepped in along with the goverment with a short term loan.

Unfortunately for me, or fortunately for me (it is mixed), I am standing at ground zero and see, touch, and smell the coffee. I have seen times past, I see times now, I see times to come. I have some real advice for those who run those companies but dont know how. I see people go hungry right now. I see the uaw willing to put everyone out of work because they wont concede anything that will keep them from throwing the kinds of parties that A.I.G. did.
And yes Virginia, there is a bigger picture, and its not just the auto industry or the banking industry. We are in deep right now and the people at the top cant even fathom how bad it is for they're golden parachutes.

I do know how to turn things around in the auto world, but no one is listening.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You all may be wondering, and its not a single simple fix, but here is one component. Dont build 900,000 cars....and then try to sell them, just build enough cars to fill the need. Its called logistics, not a fleet sale.

IT'S A RECESSION

-Jooooozooo