Well, it's been way too long since I started a thread, and I've only gotten to read a few threads, damn college, stealing my time. Anyways, I would like to get going on an ak build to complete this summer, but due to a certain president elect's past voting positions, and readiness to sign an awb. I am thinking about doing a krinkov with a 16" barrel, in either 5.45 x 39, or 5.56 x 45. I wanted to do a regular krinkov, but that would have been a sbr, and I don't wanna register this, so my main consideration now is the type. What are your thoughts on the different calibers, I realize size wise they are similar, but how about major performance differences? Current Price difference? Prediction on future price differences, availability of 5.45 ammo, and cost of possibly reloading these rounds. I think things like Dies, brass, and bullets are more common for the 5.56, so it'd be cheaper to reload, but any insight or thoughts from you guys?

Oh, I forgot, are ak 5.45 and 5.56 magazines the same exterior size?

I'm pretty sure 5.45x39 magazines will feed 5.56x45 with a simple follower change.

But don't quote me on that.

There is somewhat of an issue though with the caliber.

Right now 5.45 surplus is cheaper than than 5.56 and 7.62x39 by around 100%, but it won't always be here, whereas commercial .223 loads are nothing more than warm and fuzzy varmint boolits fer prayr-e dog huntin' and should still be available even if surplus "military" ammo is banned.

However, in my opinion, there is no better round than the 5.45x39 with the "Wasp" loading for use in a SAFR (semi-automatic fighting rifle).

I feel it is a superior man stopper than both the 5.56x45 and 7.62x39, though the 7.62x39 is better though cover than either of them.

There are some points to consider.

But if I was building that rifle it would be in 5.45x39 and I would stock up on ammo and magazines while they're cheap, instead of having to find funky .223 AK magazines or using African American modified (:D) AK74 magazines that may or may not feed correctly.

AIM Surplus has the cheapest 5.45x39 I could find (1080 rounds for $130), except it's out of stock, but they are accepting pre-orders:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/5_45x39.html

And, Copes Distributing should have the best prices on AK74 magazines, but they don't have any listed on their site, you might have to email them to see if they are unlisted.


Also (as of last week, though they might be gone now) Copes Distributing has/had 16,000 functional AK47 magazines with light rust on them for $5.50 each, except you have to email them to order.

Do you plan to use a parts kit or machine it yourself?

I'd probably go with the 5.56.

5.45 used to be really cheap but that's on its way out. I'm sure it will be available for quite a long time because there is a lot of it out there and a lot of countries still using it, but ever since it hit the country at .10/round and people started buying it up, demand for it has exploded and so have prices. In another year it won't be any cheaper than 7.62x39.

5.56 on the other hand is going down, and especially once our glorious leader Barack pulls out of Iraq it will go down further. Metal prices and oil are both down so I would terribly surprised if it doesn't go back to a fairly reasonable price in the next couple of years. Not to mention it's become pretty ubiquitous and will always be able to be found in the future.

Unfortunately 5.56 Krink kits are expensive as hell. I'd try to find an Arsenal SLR-106UR (I think that's the Krink with the fake PBS-5 can) but it's probably out of your price range.

Yeah, I'm planning on using a parts kit. What parts have to changed to switch between the rounds, besides the barrel? I've found a bulgarian aks-74u for $699 and a bulgarian aks-74nu (which is a .223 version) for only $100 more. And that's a good point about the metal prices coming down, and us leaving Iraq bringing down .223 prices. But, can the price difference save me a $100? That's the question for pondering, especially not knowing how often I'll get to use this gun.

Off the top of my head, 5.56 barrels, bolts, mags, receivers are different than 5.45. Not many people build 5.56 AKs because of these reasons.

Firing pin as well but I don't know if that's considered part of the bolt or not. I'm sure it could be improvised.

Ok, I'm leaning towards the 5.45 b/c I get can get it $60 off what I originally thought, but, being a krinkov it only comes with a 7 inch barrel, if I'm home building and don't want this on the record per se, I should buy a longer barrel to put on? Please refresh my memory about the rules with SBRs. And if anyone else has more insight into making it convertable, so far it only looks like switching out the barrel, bolt, and using different magazines, is this correct?

I believe you are correct. I opted out of building a 5.56 AK for that reason.

You'd need to register your SBR to prove you paid the $200 tax stamp and background check/fees for it. If you made a pistol, however....

Firing pin as well but I don't know if that's considered part of the bolt or not. I'm sure it could be improvised.

What?

If you made a pistol, however....

You sir, are a genius.

EDIT: I'm confused as hell, as to what happened this weekend to gun prices, everywhere they've gone up. Damnit, where I was gonna get it for $629, it's now $764, after discount, but they're on back order, and another place, has .223 ones for $799, I think I'm gonna get them there, b/c I don't want it back ordered/ and I'm not happy about them raising their prices so spur of the moment.

You sir, are a genius.

EDIT: I'm confused as hell, as to what happened this weekend to gun prices, everywhere they've gone up. Damnit, where I was gonna get it for $629, it's now $764, after discount, but they're on back order, and another place, has .223 ones for $799, I think I'm gonna get them there, b/c I don't want it back ordered/ and I'm not happy about them raising their prices so spur of the moment.

dude at those prices, just build an ar15.

You sir, are a genius.

EDIT: I'm confused as hell, as to what happened this weekend to gun prices, everywhere they've gone up. Damnit, where I was gonna get it for $629, it's now $764, after discount, but they're on back order, and another place, has .223 ones for $799, I think I'm gonna get them there, b/c I don't want it back ordered/ and I'm not happy about them raising their prices so spur of the moment.

Thank you. I have my moments.

I know your pain. I bought a lower and my source for the best deal on kits I've ever seen dried up. It was a one-time deal and all gone in a day.

dude at those prices, just build an ar15.

Well, a krinkov ak is something I really, really want, an ar15, not so much. Not saying an ak is better, just what I want.

Well, a krinkov ak is something I really, really want, an ar15, not so much. Not saying an ak is better, just what I want.

i am just saying at that price you can get something more ergonomic, still reliable, much more accurate,lighter,and much higher quality for the same price.My kit built CAR15 holds up just as well as my saiga and I havnt had problems with either of them.

If i were you i would get a saiga 7.62x39 but they also have .223,.308,12ga,20ga, and 410 available .

I looked at a saiga, they're cheap, and I've heard good things, but, the fact that they've raped an ak, and sporterized it. They made it look like a hunting gun, it just lost the bad ass-ness that a krinkov will have, plus with the krinkov will be something I put together. Plus considering the possibility of another AWB, I'd rather go with the most bad ass gun I can, rather than the saiga or ar15 which I don't care for as much, and would still likely be on the list.

I do want a saiga .410, but that's neither here nor there.

I looked at a saiga, they're cheap, and I've heard good things, but, the fact that they've raped an ak, and sporterized it. They made it look like a hunting gun, it just lost the bad ass-ness that a krinkov will have, plus with the krinkov will be something I put together. Plus considering the possibility of another AWB, I'd rather go with the most bad ass gun I can, rather than the saiga or ar15 which I don't care for as much, and would still likely be on the list.

I do want a saiga .410, but that's neither here nor there.

It is the clsest thing to a russian ak you can get. Also since you are building it anyway you do relaize you can convert it to a bad ass looking ak for the price of that krinkov kit and you could get the rifle and the conversion for that price. The saiga can be converted back to a pistol grip version pretty easily and you still have to take it apart and build it back up.
www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/index.htm
And the ar15 IS the most bad ass gun around. it is much more caliber convertable.

See, I disagree about it being the most bad ass gun, but it does have some points, unfortunately, if I were building an AR it'd be in .308, in a long range configuration, so it'd probably cost me more to get the match grade components I'd want for it. And I like the converted Saiga, so I'm wondering, would the front trunion accept a krinkov gas tube, and a krinkov barrel? Are they compatible between the two? If so, I can have a krinkov for cheaper than the kit. Also, there is one AR upper, that is pretty bad ass, and with your argument almost won me over to building an ar.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=35&products_id=338

EDIT: Well it looks like if the saiga uses the 23 mm external diameter barrel like both ak 47s and 74s do I could just switch out the front trunion, barrel, gas tube, piston, and the front sights block, but, the cost of switching those parts out looks to be bordering on the same price area as the kits less the receiver. Unfortunately the only place that I can find that sells all those parts for the krinkov is K Var, and they're pretty expensive.

See, I disagree about it being the most bad ass gun, but it does have some points, unfortunately, if I were building an AR it'd be in .308, in a long range configuration, so it'd probably cost me more to get the match grade components I'd want for it. And I like the converted Saiga, so I'm wondering, would the front trunion accept a krinkov gas tube, and a krinkov barrel? Are they compatible between the two? If so, I can have a krinkov for cheaper than the kit. Also, there is one AR upper, that is pretty bad ass, and with your argument almost won me over to building an ar.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=35&products_id=338

EDIT: Well it looks like if the saiga uses the 23 mm external diameter barrel like both ak 47s and 74s do I could just switch out the front trunion, barrel, gas tube, piston, and the front sights block, but, the cost of switching those parts out looks to be bordering on the same price area as the kits less the receiver. Unfortunately the only place that I can find that sells all those parts for the krinkov is K Var, and they're pretty expensive.

Oh i forgot you were trying to build the krinkov. But i am not sure. you could probably make it fit but the legalities may be a problem. Random looney can clear that up for you. I think that it may need to be registered if it would be considered a SBR. Or if it is considered a pistol you cannot convert it back to a rifle legally.
But saigas are very nice rifles for the money and the conversion is cheap. I have a 16 inch barrel on my saiga 7.62x39 and i really wouldnt want anything shorter than that anyway. With the short barel you want you just would get the guns potential velocity you would get with a longer barrel.

If it's registered with the BATFE as a rifle from the factory, as a Saiga is, you can't make it a pistol. Sorry.

Even without a stock, it'd be an illegal SBR as it would not be registered on the NFA registry.

That all has to do with the receiver doesn't it. So, If I wanted to make a pistol one, I'd need the saiga, a new receiver, and the barrel assembly. I think I'll just save a little more to buy the increased price krinkov kit. Thanks for the Saiga idea, but those damn anti-gun people, grrr. We outta defenestrate them all, starting with Nancy, and the Brady Bunch.

Yes, it revolves around the receiver. It can't ever have been a rifle in order to make it a pistol. It needs to come from the factory and FFL never assembled or transfered as a rifle.

I was originally planning on working from an 80%, either flat and bending it, or prebent blank, and cutting and drilling it. Which would be sturdier? I assume the bending it would be easier, since I don't have a mill or drill press at the moment.

Just bend it. Dremel some fold lines on there from the template if you want, and weld some support to the folds if you're worried.

They can be bent with a vise and a hammer in a pinch. Just don't forget you absolutely must have a spot welder to weld in the rails and a torch of some kind to heat treat the axis holes and ejector.

Yeah, I've been leaning towards bending it b/c I have a hammer, and could make or buy a jig. I have torches, an smaw, mig welder, and a flux welder, so I can spot weld the rails in, but I thought those could be riveted in? If I did get a prebent blank, I'd end up drilling start holes with a hand drill and or dremeling holes in and using files, but that would take a lot longer.

Yeah, I've been leaning towards bending it b/c I have a hammer, and could make or buy a jig. I have torches, an smaw, mig welder, and a flux welder, so I can spot weld the rails in, but I thought those could be riveted in? If I did get a prebent blank, I'd end up drilling start holes with a hand drill and or dremeling holes in and using files, but that would take a lot longer.

People have attempted to use various fasteners to attach rails with varying success. I have tried it, and it is a complete waste of time. I will reiterate my earlier statement when I say it is absolutely necessary that they be welded in place.

Well, it's been way too long since I started a thread, and I've only gotten to read a few threads, damn college, stealing my time. Anyways, I would like to get going on an ak build to complete this summer, but due to a certain president elect's past voting positions, and readiness to sign an awb. I am thinking about doing a krinkov with a 16" barrel, in either 5.45 x 39, or 5.56 x 45. I wanted to do a regular krinkov, but that would have been a sbr, and I don't wanna register this, so my main consideration now is the type. What are your thoughts on the different calibers, I realize size wise they are similar, but how about major performance differences? Current Price difference? Prediction on future price differences, availability of 5.45 ammo, and cost of possibly reloading these rounds. I think things like Dies, brass, and bullets are more common for the 5.56, so it'd be cheaper to reload, but any insight or thoughts from you guys?

Oh, I forgot, are ak 5.45 and 5.56 magazines the same exterior size?

If you have any intentions of making this full auto sew up your butt hole, cause you will be raped by the batfe.

They can be bent with a vise and a hammer in a pinch. Just don't forget you absolutely must have a spot welder to weld in the rails and a torch of some kind to heat treat the axis holes and ejector.

Not torch, bowl of alcohol to treat full receiver. Light it and be amazed.

Edit: TOTSE raped me...

If you have any intentions of making this full auto sew up your butt hole, cause you will be raped by the batfe.



Not torch, bowl of alcohol to treat full receiver. Light it and be amazed.

First, why would I be putting a 16 inch barrel on a krinkov rifle, or making it a pistol, LEGALLY, if I were going to make it full auto? This isn't bi. Second of all, it's not going to get heat treated in a bowl of alcohol, if I were to light that the fumes coming off the top would be burning, no, to heat treat the metal, I either need to use a torch, or a forge, to heat the metal to something like 1650, there's a paste that burns at the right temperature, I don't know if I'm going to get that or not, b/c it's apparently also when the steel is red hot. I think I am going to heat treat the whole receiver using a forge, I'm however trying to figure out how to heat all three sides at once. I should get one 80%, and some high carbon sheet steel, and cut myself some extras.

First, why would I be putting a 16 inch barrel on a krinkov rifle, or making it a pistol, LEGALLY, if I were going to make it full auto? This isn't bi. Second of all, it's not going to get heat treated in a bowl of alcohol, if I were to light that the fumes coming off the top would be burning, no, to heat treat the metal, I either need to use a torch, or a forge, to heat the metal to something like 1650, there's a paste that burns at the right temperature, I don't know if I'm going to get that or not, b/c it's apparently also when the steel is red hot. I think I am going to heat treat the whole receiver using a forge, I'm however trying to figure out how to heat all three sides at once. I should get one 80%, and some high carbon sheet steel, and cut myself some extras.

It must first be hardened but then must also be annealed. It isn't exactly rocket science but it must be done correctly or the axis holes will be egged out and the ejector will either crack/break (if not annealed) or be worn away after 100-200 rounds (if not hardened properly). The builder who did my Yugo milled build noted damage to an unhardened ejector in a test after as few as 50 rounds.

It must first be hardened but then must also be annealed. It isn't exactly rocket science but it must be done correctly or the axis holes will be egged out and the ejector will either crack/break (if not annealed) or be worn away after 100-200 rounds (if not hardened properly). The builder who did my Yugo milled build noted damage to an unhardened ejector in a test after as few as 50 rounds.

Ok, I thought the heating it to 1650 then to 500 was all heat treating, but, I was wrong. I knew I needed to do this, I didn't realize it was called annealing. I guess I learn something every day. And that makes sense why it wears down if not heat treated and annealed, but that quickly is shocking.