I mean real low, after watching the myth busters try it I got interested in making a reliable low cost bullet proof material. Basically I am starting from scratch, my former state of living was a shitty gun state so I don't have any firearms but i am in the process of obtaining them. what i would like to know is what dose W&C think about it?

this should be made from common materials that should not raise any red flags, specifically if martial law is instated. Just as a precaution, please dont give me the "1/2" plate steel answer, that's expensive.

Nothings bulletproof. Only bullet resistant. Remember that, grasshopper.

Apart from that, I'm waiting for LavaRed to show up, since the dude armor plated his car.

LavaRed ... since the dude armor plated his car.
Not hard to believe considering where he lives.

The only thing I can think of is either bulk ordering the ceramic plates from china, which would be off the radar, or developing a ceramics/polymer lab to make your own. Now setting up the lab is going to be terribly expensive but the production will be pretty cheap. And if you want something more bullet proof than what is mostly available now, you're gonna be doing R&D, which is also terribly expensive. So, steal plate it, unless you can build an underground bunker, or surround your place with sand bags.

If you want something to armor up your body, its not going to come cheap if you want it to be light enough to carry, and its not going to be light or comfy if you want it to be cheap.

Butif you want to armor relatively static objects like say car doors or doors, 1/4" thick steel sheet + 1" hardwood panelling + 1/2" ceramic matrix + 1" hardwood panel, + 1/4" thick steel sheet = some heavy and reliable "cheap" armor.

About the ceramic matrix. You mold and bake ceramic panels from the sculpting ceramic that you buy at craft stores, around some steel 1/4" square wire mesh. This and the wood help the bullet lose energy, the steel stops it.
It should work for most rounds up to 5.56NATO.
If you need to stop 7.62x39mm or further, you need to replace the homemade ceramic mesh and wood with real ballistic ceramic or ballistic nylon.

Always remember tho that the best armor materials can be defeated by small, fast objects. A long time ago I managed to defeat an armor vest that was stopping 9mm without a problem with a target dart out of my air rifle at close range. Both sides.
There was a .pdf on the poor man's armor vest. Based it off a flotation jacket. I had it somewhere, I'll look it up for you, but I won't recommend it, as from my experience it does not seem sound. However I never tested it.

Thanks,
LavaRed


P.S.: IMHO, save up and get yourself the best body armor that money can buy. No amount of money is too expensive when it comes to saving your life. Get yourself a nice NIJ Class III rated vest, or an Interceptor with ceramic inserts, or Dragonskin if you can. While you still can. Self-made armour can be fun, but when it comes to covering one's arse, only the best will do. My car was professionally armoured with steel armor plate and ballistic nylon, plus polycarbonate inch thick glass backed by lexan to prevent shrapnel. True, I ran tests on every new bit of armour that was proposed for the vehicle, but it was factory stuff, and it was expensive as hell, although not as expensive as armouring a new car, because the new cars are of crappier construction and need to be reinforced, while my old Wagoneer had been manufactured as an armoured car from the outset, so it was just up-armoured. And it weighs over 3 tons. A torsion bar had to be added. New leaf springs and shocks. Plus Michelin Light truck tires with run flat inserts. The engine compartment and all operational systems, plus the gas tank are ballistic nylon fibre covered, plus asbestos. The roof is steel armored now too. It even has a top hatch to escape in case of fire. And I'm still set on protecting the air vents from fumes, although work is pending on that. And the closest thing to how this car handles is one of those old army halftracks.
But its not an expensive or flashy car. No one looks twice at you in it, or in any of the cars I own. Thats the ebst defense. I only need carry one or two guards with me. No big convoy of black Escalades. Just a simple run of the mill Jap or Korean car, or the Wagoneer, couple of people, good judgement, and you're set. Lying low and making no unnecessary enemies are your first line of self- defense.

^ I personally wouldn't advocate III and IV body armor for realistic use.

Because, as I see it, the only reason I would be wearing body armor is in some sort of Katrina or riot sort of event. And if I had to be on the street I would want to be as low profile as possible, and SAPI plates are pretty far from low profile.

Level II or IIIA soft body armor and a folding stock AK in a tennis racket bag would be the way to go.

depends on what kind of clothing you wear, i would be able to wear a CIRAS under my winter jacket and pepole wouldn't be able to see that.

Any hard material set up like this /\/\/\/\/\/\ <------ will help deform and slow down a bullet. Thats about as good as it gets.

Any hard material set up like this /\/\/\/\/\/\ <------ will help deform and slow down a bullet. Thats about as good as it gets.

^
This. Remember that setting a flat plate of material at an angle increases its cross-section relative to an assumed horizontal path for the bullet.

True, heavy armor would make you conspicuous. I hadn't thought of that. Good call.

Butif you want to armor relatively static objects like say car doors or doors, 1/4" thick steel sheet + 1" hardwood panelling + 1/2" ceramic matrix + 1" hardwood panel, + 1/4" thick steel sheet = some heavy and reliable "cheap" armor.
Nigger Chobham. :D

Nigger Chobham. :D

This is why we love LavaRed! :mad:

Bulletproofing only has to cost fifty cents a pound at it's cheapest. I made around thirty blocks of ballistics gelatin with a high powder-to-water ratio (tougher than regular gel) and placed them along the wall adjacent to the outdoors in my bedroom.

If regular weak gelatin will stop most bullets with fourteen inches of thickness I figure the twelve inches of super tough (basically hard rubber) gelatin I made will stop small arms. I encased it with plywood and put soundproofing material I bought off of craigslist from a musician for aesthetics on to the end. It may have cut a somewhat sizable portion of my room down but it's worth it for safety, you know how dangerous life can be. Unfortunately I no longer have sunlight in this room and it feels as if I am in some underground tomb or something. But it's worth it for my life. I even quite like it.

The whole project cost about two hundred dollars for a nine foot tall/eleven foot wide wall of bullet resistant material, minus the soundproofing (which I put all over my room). If you try this you must (absolutely) add some sort of fragrance or odor-killer because it will smell like an old wet dog that is choking on it's own vomit in a pool of his own urine. But other than that it's all good, best of luck to you should you try this.

Edit: I should also add that I got the gelatin mix (Knox brand) wholesale from a grocer down the street. Ask for the manager and see if you can't make a deal on a few shipments worth of gelatin, you'll need more than fifty pounds worth. It is extremely cheap.

Bulletproofing only has to cost fifty cents a pound at it's cheapest. I made around thirty blocks of ballistics gelatin with a high powder-to-water ratio (tougher than regular gel) and placed them along the wall adjacent to the outdoors in my bedroom.

If regular weak gelatin will stop most bullets with fourteen inches of thickness I figure the twelve inches of super tough (basically hard rubber) gelatin I made will stop small arms. I encased it with plywood and put soundproofing material I bought off of craigslist from a musician for aesthetics on to the end. It may have cut a somewhat sizable portion of my room down but it's worth it for safety, you know how dangerous life can be. Unfortunately I no longer have sunlight in this room and it feels as if I am in some underground tomb or something. But it's worth it for my life. I even quite like it.

The whole project cost about two hundred dollars for a nine foot tall/eleven foot wide wall of bullet resistant material, minus the soundproofing (which I put all over my room). If you try this you must (absolutely) add some sort of fragrance or odor-killer because it will smell like an old wet dog that is choking on it's own vomit in a pool of his own urine. But other than that it's all good, best of luck to you should you try this.

Edit: I should also add that I got the gelatin mix (Knox brand) wholesale from a grocer down the street. Ask for the manager and see if you can't make a deal on a few shipments worth of gelatin, you'll need more than fifty pounds worth. It is extremely cheap.


My dear friend, for your predicament a single row of sandbags will be quite sufficient. 5 inches of standard issue Mark 1 sand will stop most small arms fire. Right up to the big rifle rounds. Simple and Reliable.

You are right my fellow Mediterranean brother!
I will add some sandbags to the mix as I feel taking down the gel would be too much work for me.

Adding sandbags would further armor this place up and make shrapnel a non-issue along with most armor piercers.
Thanks for the awesome suggestion.

You are right my fellow Mediterranean brother!
I will add some sandbags to the mix as I feel taking down the gel would be too much work for me.

Adding sandbags would further armor this place up and make shrapnel a non-issue along with most armor piercers.
Thanks for the awesome suggestion.

Glad to be of assistance.

Howmuch would it cost to make a inner liner out of fiberglass? That will stop eventual shards from the armour plate when it's struck, thus add more protection. (did i mention its' very light?)

Howmuch would it cost to make a inner liner out of fiberglass? That will stop eventual shards from the armour plate when it's struck, thus add more protection. (did i mention its' very light?)

I guess that depends on how much molding fiberglass costs in your particular area. But I can't see it being too effective as it would also eventually spall no?
A thin, semi rigid latex film would go much farther in this arena.

^ Wouldn't just mixing up some fiberglass resin work?

The stuff is only like $12 a gallon.

Bulletproofing only has to cost fifty cents a pound at it's cheapest. I made around thirty blocks of ballistics gelatin with a high powder-to-water ratio (tougher than regular gel) and placed them along the wall adjacent to the outdoors in my bedroom.

If regular weak gelatin will stop most bullets with fourteen inches of thickness I figure the twelve inches of super tough (basically hard rubber) gelatin I made will stop small arms. I encased it with plywood and put soundproofing material I bought off of craigslist from a musician for aesthetics on to the end. It may have cut a somewhat sizable portion of my room down but it's worth it for safety, you know how dangerous life can be. Unfortunately I no longer have sunlight in this room and it feels as if I am in some underground tomb or something. But it's worth it for my life. I even quite like it.

The whole project cost about two hundred dollars for a nine foot tall/eleven foot wide wall of bullet resistant material, minus the soundproofing (which I put all over my room). If you try this you must (absolutely) add some sort of fragrance or odor-killer because it will smell like an old wet dog that is choking on it's own vomit in a pool of his own urine. But other than that it's all good, best of luck to you should you try this.

Edit: I should also add that I got the gelatin mix (Knox brand) wholesale from a grocer down the street. Ask for the manager and see if you can't make a deal on a few shipments worth of gelatin, you'll need more than fifty pounds worth. It is extremely cheap.
Wow, where do you live dude. You have this in your room? You must be one paranoid fool.

I was just hit with an interesting idea. If anyone knows whether the ceramic plates are thermoplastics or thermosetting plastics that'd save time; but if no one knows, and someone has one of the ceramic ballistics plates laying around, they could take off a small piece, cut it off, or grind off some shavings or a small section, heat it up with a blowtorch in a heat resistant container, and try pouring it into a mold. If it pours into the mold, and cools and hardens back to the original state, it's a thermoplastic, and it can be melted and remolded, if it breaks down, or doesn't return to the original state, it's a thermosetting plastic and melting it down won't work.

And to my name is the lord, could your gelatin be acting as auger for bacterial growth, that'd explain the smell. I was under the impression that normally gelatin didn't really give off a smell. Or mold, it could be providing the moisture for mold to grow, which case you're weakening the structure of your room, and the bullet proofing won't help too much if your walls rot to the point where they fall in while you sleep. Next time, you might mix fungicide and antibiotics in the gelatin. If you can, check and see if there are bacteria colonies or fungi growing on/in the gelatin.

If I had a blowtorch Id try it.

All I know is there are layers of different crap in them. From the ones Ive pried bullets out of, the ceramic wasnt anywhere near the overall thickness of the plate.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7067031.html Maybe that would help?

I saw a TV show a while back where they showed how they were made. All I recall was them taking powder and using a big ass press to form it into a plate.

I was just hit with an interesting idea. If anyone knows whether the ceramic plates are thermoplastics or thermosetting plastics that'd save time; but if no one knows, and someone has one of the ceramic ballistics plates laying around, they could take off a small piece, cut it off, or grind off some shavings or a small section, heat it up with a blowtorch in a heat resistant container, and try pouring it into a mold. If it pours into the mold, and cools and hardens back to the original state, it's a thermoplastic, and it can be melted and remolded, if it breaks down, or doesn't return to the original state, it's a thermosetting plastic and melting it down won't work.

And to my name is the lord, could your gelatin be acting as auger for bacterial growth, that'd explain the smell. I was under the impression that normally gelatin didn't really give off a smell. Or mold, it could be providing the moisture for mold to grow, which case you're weakening the structure of your room, and the bullet proofing won't help too much if your walls rot to the point where they fall in while you sleep. Next time, you might mix fungicide and antibiotics in the gelatin. If you can, check and see if there are bacteria colonies or fungi growing on/in the gelatin.

Do NOT mix your agar gel with antibiotics, or probably even fungicides. There is a reason why we only plate bacterial colonies with antibiotics in labs with proper disposal procedures... it's because we don't want resistant strains having less competition and going around as superbugs. Just look at "super staph" infections.

15 kevlar panels removed from police vests for doing some kind of crap with model rockets for $12.


http://cgi.ebay.com/15-pcs-Ballistic-Kevlar-Make-Your-Fins-Bullet-Proof_W0QQitemZ400013080628QQihZ027QQcategoryZ2567 QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262

And, it seems this guy has a steady supply of the stuff so after the auction is over you might want to check his store again.

I think Level IIA has 16 sheets per carrier pocket (32 total).

And I'm still set on protecting the air vents from fumes, although work is pending on that.

I've never done this sort of thing before, but I had an idea you might like.

I'm not even sure how air vents work, but I assume it's a pipe/hose with a bit of mesh that leads to the outlets in the cab of the vehicle?

Why not adjust the pipe/hose size to be tight around a gas mask filter, and where the vent has the open/close switch, alter the positioning of the cable to do something like open the filter packaging (so the filter hasn't expired by the time you need to use it).

You could also make the car totally air tight/have air escape only under positive internal air pressure, and have medical grade oxygen cylinders in the car (none of that industrial grade stuff) and open the valves (might want a regulator) if you have a fume attack. But then you get a higher fire risk... You could just use plain air from a dive store, that stuff is cheap to get filled.

If I were you though I'd want to be able to escape the vehicle as quick as possible if something like an attack was to occur and the vehicle was made immobile.

The oxygen tank is a bad idea, imagine a fire in teh car and a bullet strucks the tank, or a fire will just do.:(

Yeah, oxygen is a bad idea, compressed air would work though. He could rig up an air intake through a filtration system that filtered almost everything except air, and then compressed it into tanks while he drives. And thanks for the Patent link, I didn't even think of reading the patents, they should reference one where the process for making the material is patented.

To RL: it would be better to have anti-biotics and fungicides than to not. First, the conditions of the augar in the walls, do not mimick those of the human, or any animal body, so the likely hood to them growing a bacteria that's habitat is the human body for infection is low, now considering without anti-biotics there could be millions (ok, probably and exageration, but thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions) of different colonies of bacteria depending on the condition, with an anti-biotic there would likely be less than hundreds of bacterial colonies. Between hundreds and thousands, that statistical probability of one of them being a form of bacteria which infects the human body seems a lower chance in the augar with the greater number of colonies. There also has to be some source of the bacteria for it to grow, and generally these anti-biotic resistant strains of bacteria don't just grow in the wild, they pop up in hospitals and clinics. Generally anti-biotic resistant bacteria form due to inadequate dosage of the anti-biotics or the discontinuation of treatment, so that only the weakest bacteria cells have been killed, and the rest exposed and allowed to develop an anti-biotic resistance; given proper amounts of the anti-biotic in ppm, there would be unlikely that bacterial colonies would be exposed, b/c rather than having millions of cells already, any bacteria cells in or on the augar would be likely destroyed before getting the change to colonize, thus inhibiting growth, unlike anti-biotic treatment which address already grown cultures.
On the fungicide, fungi are capable of producing spores which can cause problems in the human body, being in close quarters with them makes this more likely. Look at I think it was Chicago, that had all these old houses that were molding and children were getting infected b/c of the spores. Now, a fungicide will inhibit the general growth of fungi through similar methods as described above about the anti-biotics. While sufficient amounts of fungicide cannot guarantee that no fungi will grow it should decrease the statistical probability that any will be dangerous to the people within the building. If I were going to do this I would try to seal the gel in an airtight container, so that I would reduce my chances for exposure, and hopefully reduce the chances for either bacteria or fungi from growing, both are possible b/c there are some of both that thrive in anaerobic conditions, and then it'd be a problem that any shock to the walls could release bacteria and/or spores, but there wouldn't be a continuous source of bacteria cells or fungi to get to the augar, only what was initially sealed with the augar.

I do not support the augar method, I like the sand bag idea much better, I was just saying for anyone wanting to do that, that they might take precautions and hopefully be inspired to do a little research on this.

To RL: it would be better to have anti-biotics and fungicides than to not. First, the conditions of the augar in the walls, do not mimick those of the human, or any animal body, so the likely hood to them growing a bacteria that's habitat is the human body for infection is low, now considering without anti-biotics there could be millions (ok, probably and exageration, but thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions) of different colonies of bacteria depending on the condition, with an anti-biotic there would likely be less than hundreds of bacterial colonies. Between hundreds and thousands, that statistical probability of one of them being a form of bacteria which infects the human body seems a lower chance in the augar with the greater number of colonies. There also has to be some source of the bacteria for it to grow, and generally these anti-biotic resistant strains of bacteria don't just grow in the wild, they pop up in hospitals and clinics. Generally anti-biotic resistant bacteria form due to inadequate dosage of the anti-biotics or the discontinuation of treatment, so that only the weakest bacteria cells have been killed, and the rest exposed and allowed to develop an anti-biotic resistance; given proper amounts of the anti-biotic in ppm, there would be unlikely that bacterial colonies would be exposed, b/c rather than having millions of cells already, any bacteria cells in or on the augar would be likely destroyed before getting the change to colonize, thus inhibiting growth, unlike anti-biotic treatment which address already grown cultures.

I do not support the augar method, I like the sand bag idea much better, I was just saying for anyone wanting to do that, that they might take precautions and hopefully be inspired to do a little research on this.
I have to say, you're wrong. Trust me- I've worked with this kind of thing for awhile.

Genetic mutations in bacteria conferring resistance to antibiotics along with subsequent decrease in competition due to the dying out of weaker strains are a very real risk, and why in the lab when working with bacteria, all samples must be disposed of in an incinerator. The reason antibiotics work well in the human body is that enough of the weak strains are slowed from growing so that your immune system can catch up and combat them, killing the resistant ones in the process. Gross simplification, but bacteria don't typically have a hard time growing in the human body... especially if you're feeding them in the walls of your house. I mean, we grow enough in our bodies already and we plate them in more or less the same agar when growing in the labs. Besides, where are the bacteria likely to come from? What is going to make the most contact with the gel when you make it, hold it, breathe around it, live in indirect contact with it....

If it weren't an issue, then it wouldn't matter if people were low-dosing their AB's.

I have to say, you're wrong. Trust me- I've worked with this kind of thing for awhile.

Genetic mutations in bacteria conferring resistance to antibiotics along with subsequent decrease in competition due to the dying out of weaker strains are a very real risk, and why in the lab when working with bacteria, all samples must be disposed of in an incinerator. The reason antibiotics work well in the human body is that enough of the weak strains are slowed from growing so that your immune system can catch up and combat them, killing the resistant ones in the process. Gross simplification, but bacteria don't typically have a hard time growing in the human body... especially if you're feeding them in the walls of your house. I mean, we grow enough in our bodies already and we plate them in more or less the same agar when growing in the labs. Besides, where are the bacteria likely to come from? What is going to make the most contact with the gel when you make it, hold it, breathe around it, live in indirect contact with it....

If it weren't an issue, then it wouldn't matter if people were low-dosing their AB's.

^
This. In all, I don't think its a good idea to live in a bacteria- growing field. I'd replace the gel with sandbags myself.

This thread blew up well i was gone. I was thinking of mixing some different types of concretes and ceramics with different types of meshes.

Like a layer of 1/2" cement with 8 or 9 layers of intersecting wire mesh with pressed between a layer of 1/2"plywood and 3/8"Sheetrock for convenience.
http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bulletproffcv4.png

^
This. In all, I don't think its a good idea to live in a bacteria- growing field. I'd replace the gel with sandbags myself.

Exactly.

Why do you think the resistant bacteria appear in hospitals? Because antibiotics don't normally grow in the wild. Penicillin isn't used anymore, really. Low doses of AB aren't normally given in hospitals, right? Most doctors give proper doses, and in hospitals... most people recover.

Bacteria mutate pretty frequently. Genetics and how mutations form, as well as evolutionary fitness, are concepts that need to be understood before considering using antibiotics in model organisms such as bacteria, ie those with short life cycles and large numbers of progeny.

Genetic mutations in bacteria conferring resistance to antibiotics along with subsequent decrease in competition due to the dying out of weaker strains are a very real risk, and why in the lab when working with bacteria, all samples must be disposed of in an incinerator. The reason antibiotics work well in the human body is that enough of the weak strains are slowed from growing so that your immune system can catch up and combat them, killing the resistant ones in the process. Gross simplification, but bacteria don't typically have a hard time growing in the human body... especially if you're feeding them in the walls of your house. I mean, we grow enough in our bodies already and we plate them in more or less the same agar when growing in the labs. Besides, where are the bacteria likely to come from? What is going to make the most contact with the gel when you make it, hold it, breathe around it, live in indirect contact with it....

If it weren't an issue, then it wouldn't matter if people were low-dosing their AB's.

You are absolutely right, sorry for doubting you. Reading this got me thinking and I realized that I was not correctly assessing the environment in the walls, and it's not a good idea to put anti-biotics in the augar in your walls, and it probably isn't a good idea to put augar in your walls. (I however originally correctly assessed this not being a good idea and spoke in favor of LavaRed's sandbags; just so you know I sometimes think things through more thoroughly)

I was thinking there would be enough temperature variation that it would minimize the amount of bacteria that thrive in the body, b/c they generally need a warm environment like an incubator, and I thought the anti-biotic should effectively stop most bacteria that could manage the cold as well as thrive in the human body. Now that I consider walls, there's electrical wiring, heating ducts (in some) and insulation; plus something that's coming round here in 6 or 7 months, SUMMER!

RL: "Why do you think the resistant bacteria appear in hospitals? Because antibiotics don't normally grow in the wild. Penicillin isn't used anymore, really. Low doses of AB aren't normally given in hospitals, right? Most doctors give proper doses, and in hospitals... most people recover."

While penicillin doesn't grow in the wild, the adaptation against penicillin was something I believe that was already present in some bacteria, whether dormant, or there to survive something else, it's the mechanism that blocks Beta something if I remember right. Also, what I was saying was not too low of dosage, people often stop taking their antibiotics when they feel better, and I've always heard this as an explanation for why the bacteria mutate even quicker, b/c then it's kind of like how the body developed antibodies for Smallpox. They injected people with a dead form of smallpox?, so that the body could learn to fight it, without having to struggle too hard. And this the bacteria are exposed to the antibiotic, and the person feels better, without necessarily the bacteria all being dead. This is how it has been explained to me, not as the sole cause, but as a mechanism for increased speed of antibiotic resistance.

You are absolutely right, sorry for doubting you. Reading this got me thinking and I realized that I was not correctly assessing the environment in the walls, and it's not a good idea to put anti-biotics in the augar in your walls, and it probably isn't a good idea to put augar in your walls. (I however originally correctly assessed this not being a good idea and spoke in favor of LavaRed's sandbags; just so you know I sometimes think things through more thoroughly)

No, it's cool. You'd obviously thought about it, but I didn't want anyone using good thinking skills to support a bad idea.

While penicillin doesn't grow in the wild, the adaptation against penicillin was something I believe that was already present in some bacteria, whether dormant, or there to survive something else, it's the mechanism that blocks Beta something if I remember right. Also, what I was saying was not too low of dosage, people often stop taking their antibiotics when they feel better, and I've always heard this as an explanation for why the bacteria mutate even quicker, b/c then it's kind of like how the body developed antibodies for Smallpox. They injected people with a dead form of smallpox?, so that the body could learn to fight it, without having to struggle too hard. And this the bacteria are exposed to the antibiotic, and the person feels better, without necessarily the bacteria all being dead. This is how it has been explained to me, not as the sole cause, but as a mechanism for increased speed of antibiotic resistance.

I'm sure it was already present as mutations are random. However, smallpox is a virus, and thus the analogy can't be made exactly. They both deal with epitopes, however.

Also, admittedly, I'm not 100% sure of this, but I would imagine that just the exposure to the ABs are enough to cause superbugs to be an issue within hospitals, as most people start lowdosing on ABs outside of hospitals. In that case, it would seem that superbugs would be thought to be more common in the wild, which they are not, yet. Of course, there may be inadequate testing, etc. due to cost, large areas, etc.

In hospitals, patients are checked up on to make sure they're taking medicine, especially if theyre sick enough to stay in the hospital. Exogenous infections from fomites or direct/indirect contact happen but not if hospital staff are well trained and vigilant. Superbugs aren't really that common in the wild without human intervention, or a human as a mixing vessel. Sort of how like we have worse diseases because farmers give their animals antibiotics mixed in with food (no real dosage, and the bacteria grow immune), and in agriculture where plants and fruits are sprayed with antibiotics. Especially when those antibiotics are blown over to other plants by wind, washed down a river, or end up in the water table. We end up creating a situation worse than when we started, but unfortunately docs keep writing scripts for antibiotics even if the person has a virus, flu, or something innocuous.

Our biology dept attributes many fucked up AB-resistant strains to drug culture, and human irresponsibility during the AB course.

As to not derail the thread, I support the sandbags. Good stopping power, try to stack them like bricks and use 2-3 layers. Can be somewhat easily replaced, non permanent, and take up MUCH less space than huge tanks of solid agar which do a great job of giving bacteria and microorganisms a home away from home, and do a shitty job of stopping bullets. Where exactly are you doing this, as in which floor? I can see this ending in tears for the people below if you bring enough sandbags to bullet proof all 4 walls and test the structural integrity of your home :p

random, how big of a lab did you/do you work in if you dont mind me asking? I do the bitch work at the campus lab for min wage, but I love lab coats and procedure so I don't mind :D.

It was pretty large. I apologize, but I don't tend to talk about any of my work or employers, though I have been known to throw a funny story out now and then, mostly about police training.

If you want a funny lab story, let me know.

If you want a funny lab story, let me know.

By all means, its been long since we've had any stories.

And trust me, a single layer of sandbags is way more than enough to stop your common threat, unless you lived in wartime Sarajevo or some place like that.

By all means, its been long since we've had any stories.

And trust me, a single layer of sandbags is way more than enough to stop your common threat, unless you lived in wartime Sarajevo or some place like that.

Alright. I promise you a story tomorrow, and it'll be in the typical RL vein. You'll know what I mean when you find out what the story entails... one of my favorite goodies.


Also, okay. I lied earlier. I worked in a lab with a small amount of personnel, but large pockets. So, funding-wise, it was fairly large for its niche, but it employed relatively few individuals.

The reason I thought of 2 or more layers was in the event a bullet would happens to pass between two sand bags stacked side by side, of in the dead center of 4 stacked sand bags. I say this because sand bags are just that, bags and not perfect rectangles. The bullet would have been stopped more likely than not with one layer, but if I were sandbagging my home and expecting some kind of gunfire I'd try to cover all my bases to help me sleep at night.

I'd be much obliged to hear a story, and you could very well assume everyone else is eagerly anticipating one.

Alright, despite the fact I feel like a huge hypocrite for derailing this thread, I'll tell everyone a story.


I can't say where this was, but it was in a pretty secure location that had been targeted by some less-than-noble individuals for actions most respectable people would be appalled by. So, security was pretty tight.

Anyway, this one guy was being terminated for exhibiting some signs of instability... serious signs I can't go into details about. It troubles me that I worked next to this individual without knowing how bad things were. This individual also had military training and had taken many lives in combat.

Anyway, once removed, people begin to clean up his lab bench. They notice amongst the clutter that there is an undisposed of vacuum flask of biomatter, which is against protocol. An almost full flask. Now, supposedly, all the cells are lysed with a strong bleach solution, and then sterilized further with concentrated alcohol... but when dealing with various viruses (AIDS, SIV, etc.), transmissible cancers, carcinogenic lab materials, prions, bacteria, and even the occasional neurotoxin, we aren't thrilled to go in there, even with nitrile.

Anyway, one plucky employee notices a strange brown powder all over the bench space. After a few minutes, we determine that it is in fact, supposed to be a yellow powder. Picric acid, a substance I am quite familiar with not due to the use in biomedicine (microscopy slide staining), but due to my days in Backyard Ballistics. It's a high explosive that actually replaced by TNT after World War One. It's also highly toxic and mutagenic. Being an acid, it react with most metals (excluding tin and aluminum). Guess that kind of metal fixtures weren't in the lab? Tin or aluminum.

I would have to type a whole other paragraph to detail the sensitivity of anhydrous and hydrated picrates, alkali metal picrates, the acid itself, etc. but just imagine that in a lab where no one really knows what your colleague is working with, it's very unnerving to have to wonder what kind of varying sensitivities to friction and temperature that big discolored pile of danger has.

Needless to say, we had hazmat clear the entire floor of the building. That wasn't enough, but that's what happened.

Anyway, after security escorted me off of the premises, I decided the most rational way to get back at them would be through law enforcement, so I started from the bottom, and worked my way up to training recruits, so that I could know every aspect of their potential training, and all the flaws--

Kidding! That last part is entirely in jest. Seriously, the guy they had to escort out belongs in an institute, potentially under guard. He is a danger to himself and others. I'm just glad there is a legal record of it.

transmissible cancers

Wait.

They have those now too?

Wait.

They have those now too?

Yes. The most notable are that of dogs and Tasmanian Devil's in the Northern area of Australia.

Well Christ. Looks like I'm boned no matter what I do.

How is it transmissible?
If there's such a thing as airborne cancer, I'm going to stop working out and pick up smoking and drinking because I give up.

Yes. The most notable are that of dogs and Tasmanian Devil's in the Northern area of Australia.

Whilst that is true, Tasmanian devils are found in Tasmania, which is the southern extremity of Australia. You can also find sister marrying two headed people in Tasmania.

Right Savage?

Transmissible as in a virus can cause them, or otherwise not necessarily human transmissible, though they could cause problems in the ecosystem.

Whilst that is true, Tasmanian devils are found in Tasmania, which is the southern extremity of Australia. You can also find sister marrying two headed people in Tasmania.

Right Savage?

The ones in the South are supposed to be genetically diverse enough to recognize the cancer cells as foreign and their immune system will prevent the cancer from spreading.

Apart from ones in zoos there are no devils in the rest of australia, only in tasmania and from what i hear they're getting pretty well ass fucked with it and may go extinct, which is why they've setup little colony things in other parts of the country.

Right Savage?
How's the hunt for bigfoot coming? :D

Oh, oops- I meant the Northeast area of Tasmania.

How's the hunt for bigfoot coming? :D

I'm fucking telling you there are Yowies in the bush near my house. Fucking Yowies man. That's why I'm scared of going back in there.

Ok, first, back on the topic of bullet proofing, I have found a patent, which details a process for making a type of ceramic plating used in various applications. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5733643.html Unfortunately it isn't clearly written for a layperson, or a person that has a currently weak knowledge of polymer resins, however aside from the technical specifics as to which resins they're using, it seems the process is to form a back layer, which is somewhat pliable, a middle layer of a matrix material, whether a matrix formed by polymer, or cloth I don't know, and then the top layer is a hard brittle material. Another patent, which referenced this one, the one posted by the earlier poster with the idea of looking at the patents. The earlier patent detailed manufacturing trapezoidal or hexagonal plates of this material which could be arranged in arrays with 2 or 3 dimensions, and middle layers of force absorbing materials. Basically similar to how bricks are layed so that the space between two bricks overlaps the middle of the brick above and below it, in this case the bricks are the armor plates, and the mortar is some type of force absorber maybe like kevlar, that's either adhesively coated, or made in a way to allow the attachment of the plates. I need to think about possible cheap household methods for doing this for say body or vehicular armor. What would be awesome is if there were someway we could make aerogel, from what I've read that would make an amazing force absorber/intermediate material between layers of armor. I have also found a few .pdfs on ceramics for armor use, but haven't gotten to read them, and can't find the links at the moment, I'll look through them for any note worthy things, and try and get links later.

And to R_L, ha, wow that was a great story. It reminds me why the little lab work I currently do, I do myself, and in this summer when I plan to expand a little I have friends I've known for a while that are as generally as careful as I am. At least I don't play with terribly deadly/infectious bacteria, or viruses at all.