What the fuck kinda answer is that to any question.

The only reason I brought it up is because I asked this girl if she wanted to get high.

I didn't read this thread, I'm Christian.

What the fuck kinda answer is that to any question.

The only reason I brought it up is because I asked this girl if she wanted to get high.

To take drugs is probably against her religious beliefs, hence her answer was relevant, since it explained why she was turning down your offer.

Yeh, or maybe like.. Christianity taught her to respect her body.

It's ironic because of the blood of christ wine thing. Give her that bible quote about god giving man all the earth's plants/herbs.

It's ironic because of the blood of christ wine thing.

The Bible prohibits intoxication, claiming it weakens judgment and tempts man to sin (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8; 1 Peter 1:13-17; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Taking a sip of wine during communion is far from being intoxicated.

Give her that bible quote about god giving man all the earth's plants/herbs.

Nature is teleological in Christian theology, so it could be said that although God gives man all the earth's plants, it is not to do whatever he wants with them. Think of it like this: the state permits ownership of cars, for the purpose of driving from location to location, not for the purpose of mowing down civilians; in fact, mowing down civilians would land you a hefty penitentiary sentence. Similarly, a sip of wine can be taken at communion and marijuana can be smoked to ease the pains of terminal ailments, but getting smashed or baked for pleasure is prohibited.

^yup Just because God created our hands doesnt mean its okay to strangle someone. similarly he gave us alcohol to use in moderation. doing otherwise would defile or damage our bodies and make it easier to sin. smoking up abuses the bodies and plants he gave us. if she is a strong enough christian to not smoke weed then i doubt twisting a scripture showing that god made all plants is going to convince her. which denomination is she?

The Bible prohibits intoxication, claiming it weakens judgment and tempts man to sin (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8; 1 Peter 1:13-17; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Taking a sip of wine during communion is far from being intoxicated.



Nature is teleological in Christian theology, so it could be said that although God gives man all the earth's plants, it is not to do whatever he wants with them. Think of it like this: the state permits ownership of cars, for the purpose of driving from location to location, not for the purpose of mowing down civilians; in fact, mowing down civilians would land you a hefty penitentiary sentence. Similarly, a sip of wine can be taken at communion and marijuana can be smoked to ease the pains of terminal ailments, but getting smashed or baked for pleasure is prohibited.


what you experience when you smoke weed is not intoxicating, nor is it harmful

I dont think god gets pissed at the act of smoking Marijuana in general. I think he dislikes the fact it leads to.....

Overeating, laziness, selfishness, lack of priorities in the right order, ect. ect.

Smoking once and a while to have some fun is why it was put on earth, and why it does what it does. But doing too many drugs can lead away from any spiritual path.

^^ OMG NOOB ITS A GATEWAY DRUG.. DO YOU THINK GOD LIKES THE CRACK YOU'LL BE SMOKING IN SEVERAL WEEKS AFTER YOU START SMOKING THE MARY JANE?!?!?!?!


Really though Once in a while (a couple times a month? less?) And its not going to make you retarded that bad. But its not good for your health (except in rare cases) and it does change your brain chemistry to work in a way that wasn't intended. This is going to sound cliche but WWJD? A perfect christian, modeling Jesus example would not smoke the marijuana.

A perfect christian, modeling Jesus example would not smoke the marijuana.

Point well taken.

^^ur a fuckin idiot

^^ur a fuckin idiot

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

(Since this is a religious forum)

what makes even less sense is when people who claim they are christian continue to do things that are obviously against their PROPOSED belief system.

what makes even less sense is when people who claim they are christian continue to do things that are obviously against their PROPOSED belief system.

.......no ones perfect, not even you

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

(Since this is a religious forum)

Leukemia is a word.
So are Lymphoma, Glaucoma, Vaginitis, and Necrosis. All of which can hurt you.

I smoke too much weed. I stay awake all the time, I like to party and like to drink too. Life is a haze, or at least the last couple of years are.

But I am not a bad person nor do I regret my choices. I am happy the way I live. If I get too tired, I sleep. If I feel I need to take a break, I take one. I don't get drunk and stupid, I don't hurt others, I am a very kind and generous and considerate person.

One pothead is completely different from another. Same with any other vice. To let something take over your life and to not care about anything else is a waste of life, in my opinion. Not everyone does that; so I think such "rules" which apply to everyone are silly.

what you experience when you smoke weed is not intoxicating, nor is it harmful

Speaking as someone who 1) smoked the stuff for forty years and 2) spent twenty of them as a d&a professional, I say you are incorrect on both counts.

Getting stoned screws up your head in many ways, and is not only carcinogenic but also conducive to COPD.

Granted, it is far less toxic than other mood-altering drugs, but it is far from harmless.

Back to topic, there is no good reason for a Christian not to do ANYTHING simply because one is a Christian. In the example you cited , it sounds like a knee-jerk reaction from a fearful and probably brainwashed child.

Does the bible say a single thing about marijuana? No.

The reason why she's not doing it isn't because she believes God has forbidden it, it's because she's been sold a lifestyle that you're supposed to follow to be "accepted" by god or whatever.

Why is she saying that? Because like every other theist, she's a fucking idiot. She has delegated responsibility of her life into the hands of an imaginary friend, and according to the mouthpieces of that friend, doing X is bad, so she can't do it. She is too stupid to actually think it out for herself.

Of course, she could be perfectly capable, and just have no knowledge of coming to a decision based on logic. You should try to work on that, if possible.

.......no ones perfect, not even you

its not that, im fine with people who do drugs and who have their own moral code in which it is ok, but when people follow a religion and go to church every sunday but party the night before, that is just plain ignorance, try to be like what you claim your morals are or just admit you don't want to follow them.

Why is she saying that? Because like every other theist, she's a fucking idiot.

Did you know all the theists think the same thing about people like you? Saying that Satan has blinded them, that their arrogant, stuck up, think they're better and smarter than everyone else and frequently are fed bullshit from scientists and the academic communities which think even more so that there better than everyone else.

The only difference between people like you and theists is that their believes teach them to be humble or even train themselves to think otherwise and not to judge people.

“Stereotypes are devices for saving a biased person the trouble of learning”

Did you know all the theists think the same thing about people like you? Saying that Satan has blinded them, that their arrogant, stuck up, think they're better and smarter than everyone else and frequently are fed bullshit from scientists and the academic communities which think even more so that there better than everyone else.

The only difference between people like you and theists is that their believes teach them to be humble or even train themselves to think otherwise and not to judge people.

“Stereotypes are devices for saving a biased person the trouble of learning”

So they learn not to judge people and then call them arrogant, stuck up and condescending idiots who are controlled by Satan? Yeah, they sound much better than secularists who make derogatory generalizations.

Prometheum and theists like him have biased opinions and prejudge people based on their beliefs. Based on his post he views this girl as "a fucking idiot. She has delegated responsibility of her life into the hands of an imaginary friend, and according to the mouthpieces of that friend, doing X is bad, so she can't do it. She is too stupid to actually think it out for herself."

Even though he is probably right about the girl she could also not want to do anything that could hinder her relationship with the most powerful being in the universe. And the OP should respect her if that's the case. If she is doing it because she is a goody goody who was told that its a gateway drug and such then she is a fucking idiot.

It was the "like every other theist" in Prometheum's post that got me. I'd agree that most theists are idiots, but so is the vast majority of the human population. I was simply giving him a taste of his own medicine and pointing out that most theists and non-theists both may prejudge however theists usually keep it to themselves and not post such a flagrant, bigot thought.

Prometheum and theists like him have biased opinions and prejudge people based on their beliefs. Based on his post he views this girl as "a fucking idiot. She has delegated responsibility of her life into the hands of an imaginary friend, and according to the mouthpieces of that friend, doing X is bad, so she can't do it. She is too stupid to actually think it out for herself."

Even though he is probably right about the girl she could also not want to do anything that could hinder her relationship with the most powerful being in the universe. And the OP should respect her if that's the case. If she is doing it because she is a goody goody who was told that its a gateway drug and such then she is a fucking idiot.

It was the "like every other theist" in Prometheum's post that got me. I'd agree that most theists are idiots, but so is the vast majority of the human population. I was simply giving him a taste of his own medicine and pointing out that most theists and non-theists both may prejudge however theists usually keep it to themselves and not post such a flagrant, bigot thought.

You, like most theists, are an idiot. So much so you do not know the difference between an atheist and a theist.

You, like most theists, are an idiot. So much so you do not know the difference between an atheist and a theist.

Nope. I'm pretty sure I understand the difference. A theist believes in a deity and an atheists have a lack of belief in God, or a supernatural being.

I don't understand what you got your post from?

Nope. I'm pretty sure I understand the difference. A theist believes in a deity and an atheists have a lack of belief in God, or a supernatural being.

I don't understand what you got your post from?

Just your posts.

Prometheum and theists like him

From this? Meant what I said. I wasn't singling out atheists (which I now assume you are) but rather comparing you to the theists you called fucking idiots.

doing too many drugs can lead away from any spiritual path.

I think doing too many drugs leads toward a spiritual path.

I think doing too many drugs leads toward a spiritual path.

I have repeatedly seen this to be the case.

i really dont see how Christ thinks of drug use unethically; i can see how christians/ christianity believe it.

I have come across varius passages which exclaim that plant life comes from god, and it is not human entitlement to prohibit it ( sourced from jack herers "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" it has a whole chapter on religous use of marijuana).

Of course your body is a temple and it should be treated with respect, that does not inherently mean drug use should be prohibited, indeed drug use can be constructive toward this.

We are responsible for our actions, not others whether it be a plant or a person.

p.s i smoke the chronic every day legalizeit

"a fucking idiot. She has delegated responsibility of her life into the hands of an imaginary friend, and according to the mouthpieces of that friend, doing X is bad, so she can't do it." - Prometheum

This sounds pretty spot on.

She has delegate the responsibility of her life into the hands of, for all anyone KNOWS, an imaginary friend.

This makes her a fucking idiot. Yes indeed.

Thing is, there are numerous valid decent reasons not to smoke weed, and numerous valid decent reasons to smoke weed. What some primitive tribal belief structure has to do with, is entirely dependent upon how weak minded you are.

"a fucking idiot. She has delegated responsibility of her life into the hands of an imaginary friend, and according to the mouthpieces of that friend, doing X is bad, so she can't do it." - Prometheum

This sounds pretty spot on.

She has delegate the responsibility of her life into the hands of, for all anyone KNOWS, an imaginary friend.

This makes her a fucking idiot. Yes indeed.

Your logic is flawed.

For all you know is she worshiping God in the right way and God is smite all who smoke the herb.

It all comes down to what you believe in, you might not believe in God so you have nothing restricting you from smoking up. She...People like her DO believe in God and restrain from smoking weed because they believe that it'll impact them in a negative way.

Besides all her christian friends probably don't smoke either. Doing so will make her an outcast.

Your logic is flawed.

For all you know is she worshiping God in the right way and God is smite all who smoke the herb.

It all comes down to what you believe in, you might not believe in God so you have nothing restricting you from smoking up. She...People like her DO believe in God and restrain from smoking weed because they believe that it'll impact them in a negative way.

Besides all her christian friends probably don't smoke either. Doing so will make her an outcast.

But like i said there are many passages that show Christians should not be against drugs

IMO christian opinion on intoxicants in the west is largely derived from social construction and politics not scripture; because the scripture says its alright.

Do you have any scriptures that mention anything other than something like "all plants come from God."

Post them.

Do you have any scriptures that mention anything other than something like "all plants come from God."

Post them.

What does it matter? You have a scripture that invalidates scripture. You can spew whatever doublethink you want.

The probability of her "worshipping god in the right way" is minuscule, and as it is entirely unsubstantiated, completely idiotic. If you do anything based off of "faith" in what someone else is telling you, you are an idiot. That is just a simple fact. That's your problem.

Your logic is flawed.

For all you know is she worshiping God in the right way and God is smite all who smoke the herb.

She is a fucking idiot, b/c if she needs it, she will refuse a blood transplant and die because her book said blood is magical.

It IS the EXACT equivalent of a person jumping off a building and thinking happy thoughts until they splatter into a wet crunch on the pavement below, b/c the book they believed in was Peter Pan and the lost boys.

Few would dare to HONESTLY suggest the Peter Pan worshiper, was not a fucking idiot.

I for one think one standard will do just fine, thus, she is a fucking idiot.

Prometheum - I was asking because he said there were many that validate smoking weed. I think all those "God made plants" scriptures is bullshit, so I was asking if he had any others.

I also do dick all about what other people tell me. All my believes are throughly and independently researched by myself.

Broke Prophet - As someone who believes in the Bible as Gods word, I view it much more than a storybook. I can compare your believes to something as stupid as not believing your encyclopedia or dictionary. There is no point in arguing about it because we can't show facts that'll convince either of us otherwise.



She could be a fucking idiot, depending on why she is believing it and exactly what she believes.

As someone who believes in the Bible as Gods word, I view it much more than a storybook.

Believe all you want, you have the same amount of evidence that God exists, as someone does that Peter Pan exists.

Doesn't matter how much you believe Neverland/God/Peter Pan/Heaven exists, you have no evidence.

So this:

A person jumping off a building to their death thinking happy thoughts the whole trip down b/c they believe the story of Peter Pan is true.

Is 100% equal to this:

A person who refuses a life saving blood transfusion b/c a book based on ancient Jewish folklore suggets blood is magical.

If you disagree with that, explain to me the difference, or tell me why you feel the lost boy isn't an idiot, or tell me why a double standard where our little witness is concerned.

If you cannot explain the difference, or tell me why lost boy is not an idiot, or tell me why a double standard is justified, I don't see how you can disagree, though I am confident you will.

I can compare your believes to something as stupid as not believing your encyclopedia or dictionary. There is no point in arguing about it because we can't show facts that'll convince either of us otherwise.

Give it a shot, but before you do, have the courtesy to explain the above.

You might want to know what I believe in, before you compare it something stupid, so here goes:

I believe in empirical evidence.

Good luck.

She could be a fucking idiot, depending on why she is believing it and exactly what she believes.

She IS a fucking idiot, same as our wannabe lost boy, BECAUSE, they both have an equal amount of evidence (none) to validate beliefs that put their lives at risk.

Again, one standard of idiocy will do just fine.

First I'd like you to know that my believes (probably) differ VERY greatly from said girl. I believe in the Bible, She probably believes in her priest or parents. That said ->

Believe all you want, you have the same amount of evidence that God exists, as someone does that Peter Pan exists.

Or as much, if not more (see below) as someone who doesn't believe in the Bible. I will stick with that until proven that the Bible is wrong or until someone proves to me that Peter Pan or whatever the fuck you believe is right.


A person jumping off a building to their death thinking happy thoughts the whole trip down b/c they believe the story of Peter Pan is true.

Is 100% equal to this:

A person who refuses a life saving blood transfusion b/c a book based on ancient Jewish folklore suggets blood is magical.

A person who follows the Bible has a lot more to worry about than their physical body. Their spiritual life is of utmost importance compared to their imperfect bodies. A person believing is Peter Pan has a chemical imbalance.

FYI the Blood issue is also in the new testament by the apostle Paul, and the Hebrew writings are also validated (not for laws per say) by the New testament. And the blood thing is blown way out of proportion. In the Jehovah Witness thread I mentioned I have some family who are J.W.'s. The rare of them die not because of refusing blood but because of their health complications. Them accepting blood not necessarily guarantee saving their life's. They should be lauded because their stand on blood forced doctors to learn how to do bloodless surgery. 50 years ago doctors would give blood so they could be careless in their surgery. This would cause many other complications including spread of HIV and Hep. among other things and usually the body does not respond well to foreign objects. Sorry for getting off topic....


I believe in empirical evidence.

Can I interest you in a prophecy? Isaiah wrote about the liberation of Jews by someone who he mentioned by name and described how he was going to do it and what the Jews were going to do once liberated. All this before the liberator was born, and just about 200 years before the events occurred. I'll be glad to tell it in detail if your interested.



Who is lostboy and tell me a bit about him. I haven't been to this forum in a long time.
Also, what exactly are your believes according to your empirical research.

Do you have any scriptures that mention anything other than something like "all plants come from God."

Post them.

Well im not a christian so i dont have a vast knowledge of the Bible; but i can source the scriptures that are deemed by jack herer to be related to marijuana in his book "the emperor wears no clothes"; it is probable that there are alot more scriptures relating to intoxicants and intoxication.

“And the Earth brought forth grass and herb-yielding seed after its kind and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself after its kind: and God saw that it was good.” Genesis: Chapt. 1: Verse 12 (King James Version of the Bible, unless noted).



“God makes the Earth yield healing herbs, which the prudent man should not neglect.” Sirach: 38:4 (Catholic Bible.)



“Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; That which cometh out of the mouth defileth a man.” Jesus, quoted: Matt. 15:11.



“In later times, some shall…speak lies in hypocrisy…commanding to abstain from that which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” Paul: 1 Tim. 4:1

^^^^^^^^ one small point: cannabis is not an intoxicant!

^^^^^^^^ one small point: cannabis is not an intoxicant!

Cannabis is a psychoactive substance that is an empirical fact; that is not to say it isn't many other things. it has over 50,000 known purposes that does not take away from the empirical fact that one of those uses is as an intoxicant.

is not only carcinogenic

THC can inhibit some carcinogens, and has been shown to destroy precancerous cells. This prevents cancer from deveoping.

Google it, there are numerous sources.


but also conducive to COPD.

As I have shown you before:

These findings do not support an association between regular marijuana smoking and chronic COPD but do not exclude the possibility of other adverse respiratory effects.

link (http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/1/141)

Translation: Smoking pot does not increase your chances of getting COPD any more then not smoking.

THC can inhibit some carcinogens, and has been shown to destroy precancerous cells. This prevents cancer from deveoping.

Google it, there are numerous sources.




As I have shown you before:



link (http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/1/141)

Translation: Smoking pot does not increase your chances of getting COPD any more then not smoking.

what does this have to do with my God beating the shit out of Your God again?

what does this have to do with my God beating the shit out of Your God again?

They took it in that direction before I did.

I agree that it is far from harmless. But I disagree with Arms on those points.

And I already posted my opinion about scripture and drug use.

Not to get off topic, but I speak about pot from lengthy experience. After I quit smoking it (on a heavy, daily basis), my breathing improved, as did my overall health. Of course, since I quit alcohol and tobacco at the same time, it IS hard to separate out the specific effects of each specific toxin.

I still maintain that inhaling superheated, CO-rich air CANNOT be good for you, regardless of what you happen to be smoking.

If you want to smoke the shit, go for it--but to get all defensive about "oh, it isn't hurting me" is just another lame junkie denial tactic.

Not to get off topic, but I speak about pot from lengthy experience. After I quit smoking it (on a heavy, daily basis), my breathing improved, as did my overall health. Of course, since I quit alcohol and tobacco at the same time, it IS hard to separate out the specific effects of each specific toxin.

I still maintain that inhaling superheated, CO-rich air CANNOT be good for you, regardless of what you happen to be smoking.

If you want to smoke the shit, go for it--but to get all defensive about "oh, it isn't hurting me" is just another lame junkie denial tactic.

"It isnt hurting me" you need to define what me is. I assume you mean the body.

But, from a spiritual perspective; we should not care so much for what happens to our body, what takes priority is the spiritual impact. You could even evaluate it on a mental level, but i don't see the negative bodily effects as having much ontological value.

These can be vastly reduced anyway by using a vaporizer or baking cookies.

Not to get off topic, but I speak about pot from lengthy experience. After I quit smoking it (on a heavy, daily basis), my breathing improved, as did my overall health. Of course, since I quit alcohol and tobacco at the same time, it IS hard to separate out the specific effects of each specific toxin.

I still maintain that inhaling superheated, CO-rich air CANNOT be good for you, regardless of what you happen to be smoking.

If you want to smoke the shit, go for it--but to get all defensive about "oh, it isn't hurting me" is just another lame junkie denial tactic.

I agree with you that smoking weed is not harmless. I smoke it heavily, on a daily basis, and I can testify that my lungs would function better if I did not. Much better.

I still maintain that inhaling weed smoke will not increase ones chances of developing COPD, and will not cause lung cancer.

This is not some lame junkie denial tactic; this is what we have learned from numerous studies over decades of researching how the inhalation of cannabis smoke effects humans.

If you don't want to smoke the sacred fruit, go ahead and don't. But to get all offensive and start referring to it as shit is just a lame attempt to propagate your opinions to people without giving them a chance to decide for themselves what is and isn't shitty about smoking weed. Don't make the mistake of assuming you have the absolute knowledge about what is and is not good for other people; you certainly do not.

we should not care so much for what happens to our body, what takes priority is the spiritual impact.

Why do you separate the mind from the body?

I think the state of the body can greatly influence the state of the mind, as well as vice versa.

You're all retards. The bible and whats right and wrong by God is something to keep order and keep the majority of people under control and living their lives in a way thats for the good of society. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why do you separate the mind from the body?

I think the state of the body can greatly influence the state of the mind, as well as vice versa.

The body and the mind are similar in that they are both material; but i think we all understand the the mind (brain) is a very unique organ especially in comparison to other organs we have.

So the structure i think is similar to the body, and really they are one in the same but the functions are quite different ( i think the main difference would be that our bodies are automated whilst our brain is far more malleable, the mind can posses intelligence or the ability to discriminate knowledge).

So i respect that there is a relationship between the mind and the body and vice versa; but also respect the relationship between the body, the mind and the soul.

So there is no need to make this distinction between the mind and the body i am dealing with material nature and spiritual nature.

The soul is distinct from both the mind and the body and that was really the point i was trying to get across.

A person who follows the Bible has a lot more to worry about than their physical body. Their spiritual life is of utmost importance compared to their imperfect bodies. A person believing is Peter Pan has a chemical imbalance.

A follower of Pan has the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE to justify their belief, as you do. Their is nothing you are going to say that will change that FACT, with the exception of proving your religion to be the one true religion (ie proving the existence of your God/Jesus/Soul/Afterlife etc.)

I highly doubt that will happen, considering that if you had any actual evidence for proof, beyond the same faith a Peter Pan follower has, you wouldn't be wasting your time here on totse, you would be preparing your Nobel Prize winning speech, meeting with various religious leaders, and be doing a whirlwind of television interviews.

The legitimacy of both are equal, yet you call the other crazy for believing what they do. Why the double standard?

FYI the Blood issue is also in the new testament by the apostle Paul, and the Hebrew writings are also validated (not for laws per say) by the New testament..

So....the first book is validated by the sequel?

How can this be?

I cannot think of a single way this could have happened short of the divine magic of an all powerful being.

I am now a believer.

And the blood thing is blown way out of proportion. In the Jehovah Witness thread I mentioned I have some family who are J.W.'s. The rare of them die not because of refusing blood but because of their health complications.

Not the point.

But, I promise you every single J.W. who is devout to the teachings of their sect, who needed a blood transfusion to save their life, has died. They died, the same way a fucking idiot who does a header off a skyscraper thinking happy thoughts b/c they believed the book Peter Pan, does. As idiots.

Can I interest you in a prophecy? Isaiah wrote about the liberation of Jews by someone who he mentioned by name and described how he was going to do it and what the Jews were going to do once liberated. All this before the liberator was born, and just about 200 years before the events occurred. I'll be glad to tell it in detail if your interested.

I know the tale, and this mythology lacks the interesting nature of Greek mythos in my personal opinion.

Are you REALLY so amazed that someone writes something down in an instruction manual for how to live your life, and it the event happens 200 years later? Are you aware that someone can read a book that says X will happen, and then go out form a highly organized group of people who all feel that X is going to happen, and then they make X happen.

I can go into to detail more about self fulfilling prophecy if you are interested. It is a pretty interseting thing, even though it involves absolutely no magic.

Who is lostboy and tell me a bit about him. I haven't been to this forum in a long time.
Also, what exactly are your believes according to your empirical research.

I was referring to a person who believes the events in the book Peter Pan, are true, when I said lost boy.

I don't have a pre-set belief structure. If I have to decide whether or not I am going to believe if something is real or not, I simply use a bit of deductive reasoning, common sense, logic and/or research what empirical evidence others have unconvered.

Then I decide, not some ancient book of tribal folklore.

The soul is distinct from both the mind and the body and that was really the point i was trying to get across.

You should probably state what you mean by body, mind, and soul. I do not know what you mean.

To me they all depend on each other, in one way or another. One is not more important then another. Why should it be?

1Are you REALLY so amazed that someone writes something down in an instruction manual for how to live your life, and it the event happens 200 years later? Are you aware that someone can read a book that says X will happen, and then go out form a highly organized group of people who all feel that X is going to happen, and then they make X happen.

I can go into to detail more about self fulfilling prophecy if you are interested. It is a pretty interseting thing, even though it involves absolutely no magic.

2I don't have a pre-set belief structure. If I have to decide whether or not I am going to believe if something is real or not, I simply use a bit of deductive reasoning, common sense, logic and/or research what empirical evidence others have unconvered.

Then I decide, not some ancient book of tribal folklore.

1 I'm sure the Babylonian guards read the Book of Isaiah, then carelessly left the gates to the most impregnable city in the world just to self fulfill the prophecy. Besides that, world events are much too chaotic for them to say: Look we gotta name a king Cyrus then hes got to rise to power and take over the Greatest empire in the world. Sounds more like a story book without divine inspiration.

Another prophecy in the Bible shows that a great world empire would spring out of ancient Rome, after many years of ruling a piece would break off and become world leader - USandA

2 I do the same. You should look into the Bible and why it is valuable.

1 I'm sure the Babylonian guards read the Book of Isaiah, then carelessly left the gates to the most impregnable city in the world just to self fulfill the prophecy. Besides that, world events are much too chaotic for them to say: Look we gotta name a king Cyrus then hes got to rise to power and take over the Greatest empire in the world. Sounds more like a story book without divine inspiration.

Another prophecy in the Bible shows that a great world empire would spring out of ancient Rome, after many years of ruling a piece would break off and become world leader - USandA

2 I do the same. You should look into the Bible and why it is valuable.

Glad to see you finally left the original debate go (about JW's being fucking idiots, same as Pan followers).

That being said.....

1. Recording a prophecy, and making everyone aware of this prophecy, CAN in fact intice people to create the prophecy. Which makes it a set of instructions, and not magical prediction. There is nothing you can say, that will indicate otherwise.

Besides, Cyrus was recorded throughout the OT for things HE DID (past tense). Tell me what good is a book, that makes predictions AND ALSO records those events as coming true?

Perhaps, just maybe, the events could have happened, and THEN Isaiah made his predictions.

Seriously, if I read in the bible, a clear prophecy that indicated we would use 0's and 1's, as electrical impulses to run a highly sophisticated global communication network called the internet, I would believe soemthing magical did happen.

What you suggest is just too easy to have been made up.

But let's check out Isaiah and his fortune telling abilities some more shall we?

19:17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt.

19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists.

19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
According to 19:18, there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now.
19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. (19:18-21)These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt.


Care to tell me the use of a prophet, whose prophecies are bullshit?

AKA, a broke prophet?

2 I do the same. You should look into the Bible and why it is valuable.

2 I have read it, and found it wanting. Perhaps you should read it without the rose tinted glasses at least once in your life.

You should look into the bible and see why it is one of the most damaging pieces of literature to ever infect the human race. You should look into the death, pain, and misery followers of its teachings have wrought. You should look into it's poor editing, its condradictory nature, and it's basic over generalized language, which have allowed so many subjective interpretations, as to render it's supposed purpose in effective.

Glad to see you finally left the original debate go (about JW's being fucking idiots, same as Pan followers).
Neither of us could have "won", its subject to opinion.



1. Recording a prophecy, and making everyone aware of this prophecy, CAN in fact intice people to create the prophecy. Which makes it a set of instructions, and not magical prediction. There is nothing you can say, that will indicate otherwise.

Granted but some things were out of their control.


Besides, Cyrus was recorded throughout the OT for things HE DID (past tense). Tell me what good is a book, that makes predictions AND ALSO records those events as coming true?

Perhaps, just maybe, the events could have happened, and THEN Isaiah made his predictions.
First the Old Testament is a group of books. Isaiah would not have been able to do that. Look into it yourself


Seriously, if I read in the bible, a clear prophecy that indicated we would use 0's and 1's, as electrical impulses to run a highly sophisticated global communication network called the internet, I would believe something magical did happen. I loled pretty good. There are some modern day prophecies which are quite interesting especially as I think one is unfolding currently. Maybe I'll make a thread about some tomorrow or another day.


What you suggest is just too easy to have been made up. Numerous historians, scholars, and archeologists prove otherwise. Are you talking about the Bible, the prophecy mentioned, other prophecies, the fall of Babylon...what?



But let's check out Isaiah and his fortune telling abilities some more shall we?

19:17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt.

19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists.

19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
According to 19:18, there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now.
19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. (19:18-21)These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt.



I'll have a go at those scriptures tonight (3am) but I can do further research into them.

Is. 19:17 - Prophecy about how God's people would preach to Egyptians at a time when the government were weak "like women". They would tremble or are a "cause for reeling," because of the pronouncements being against the government and majority of people.

Is. 19:23,24 - When God released or rescued Israel from times he mentions he made a highway for them out of the trouble or nations. Exiles from Assyria and Egypt as well as Babylon were released from Babylonian captivity and able to return to the Promised land. There people from these 3 nations existed under peaceful conditions. See Is. 11:11 Might have a modern day meaning as well...I'm not sure.

Is. 19:18 - Hebrew was spoken in Egypt by Jews who fled there. (The book of Jeremiah makes mention about this) It also may be talking about the "pure language" (Zephaniah 3:9) the fiqurative language that Gods people "spoke" Further, the Jews may have teared down false religion there.

Is 19:19 - Future prophecy? The spreading of Gods name will be done there. Maybe the boundary that Egypt was to promised land = figurative boundary between political world and Gods kingdom new world.

Is 19:20 - World wide future prophecy, Gods people will cry out to him for help from political oppressors and send for help during Armageddon.

Is 19:21 - Egyptians are being used in the past few verses as a metaphor to the entire world today opposed to his will. Basically anyone not doing his will. Apart of Satans world as defined by Jesus. This verse is saying that people out of the ^^nations or Satans world will learn about God.




2 I have read it, and found it wanting. Perhaps you should read it without the rose tinted glasses at least once in your life.
I used to be very skeptical, always trying to prove it wrong or find loopholes. Instead the more I dug the more treasures I found. Prov. 2:3-5


You should look into the bible and see why it is one of the most damaging pieces of literature to ever infect the human race. You should look into the death, pain, and misery followers of its teachings have wrought.
Bang on, false religions teachings not the Bibles fault but corrupt Christian leaders. Holy wars, genocides. Would a religion that God approve of part take in these things? Obviously not.

You should look into it's poor editing, its condradictory nature, and it's basic over generalized language, which have allowed so many subjective interpretations, as to render it's supposed purpose in effective.

I've looked into editing and translation and accuracy over its many years and found it to be satisfying. For example the dead sea scrolls found in 1947 attest to Isaiah being extremely accurate aside from a few minor mistakes which didn't take away any meaning and were averaged out over the many, many translations. I don't find it to be contradictory. The different interpretations are from peoples view and many times religions distorting or changing the meaning, not the books fault. Its made to be read by ones who want to serve god and thus have Gods blessing. And if you think its over-generalized you have yet to read Revelations.

...the dead sea scrolls...

ever hear of john allegro?

ever hear of him, the dead sea scrolls and ... mushrooms?

You should probably state what you mean by body, mind, and soul. I do not know what you mean.

To me they all depend on each other, in one way or another. One is not more important then another. Why should it be?

thats a thread in and of itself.

there is knowledge out there that mostly reflects my understanding, i gave it too you and you did not want to pay any attention to it.

The realizations we all have are not made overnight, if i give you my understanding, are you going to pay attention?

i am pessimistic.

in this forum there seems to be two people, the ones who follow spirituality and the ones who dont. i really dont think my input is going to do anything to convince you, but you did ask so simply put.

The body is the automated organs contained beneath the skin, including their organelles, blood (veins, arteries capillaries, lymph system) that sort of thing.

The mind is an organ also but we can understand that it is not fully automated, it is like a calculator but because of intelligence we can use the information in the mind to discriminate (discriminate different kinds of knowledge).

The soul manifests itself in different subtleties such as consciousness, life energy, growth, movement, metabolism, mind, intelligence, personality, individuality, thinking, desire, imagination, emotion, discrimination and initiative.

These qualities of the soul come and go and change with time, but the soul is always present. Consciousness is the most important symptom of the soul because although the contents of consciousness can vary consciousness the principal itself is always the same.

An understanding of the soul is pivotal to an understanding of God.

ever hear of john allegro?

ever hear of him, the dead sea scrolls and ... mushrooms?

I have but I don't really know his views, but what makes him right?

I have but I don't really know his views, but what makes him right?

I never said anything anyone being right or wrong.

He was the only agnostic and non-christian to decipher the dead sea scrolls. He discovered amazing references to magical mushroom use.

It is a very interesting subject.

there is knowledge out there that mostly reflects my understanding, i gave it too you and you did not want to pay any attention to it.

No. If I didn't want to pay attention to it, I wouldn't be paying any attention to you or asking you to further explain yourself. Of course I am attentive.

The realizations we all have are not made overnight, if i give you my understanding, are you going to pay attention?

Sure?

i am pessimistic.

Optimism or pessimism; both are just masturbation.

Until a person stops hoping things will get better, or fretting that things will only get worse and actually accepts things for how they are, that person will only continue to fuck themselves.

in this forum there seems to be two people, the ones who follow spirituality and the ones who dont. i really dont think my input is going to do anything to convince you, but you did ask so simply put.

I am not asking you to convince me, and I don't want you to attempt to.

I am simply curious as to what you mean by these terms, and why you place more importance on what you call the 'spirit' over what you call the 'body'.

The body is the automated organs contained beneath the skin, including their organelles, blood (veins, arteries capillaries, lymph system) that sort of thing.

The mind is an organ also but we can understand that it is not fully automated, it is like a calculator but because of intelligence we can use the information in the mind to discriminate (discriminate different kinds of knowledge).

The soul manifests itself in different subtleties such as consciousness, life energy, growth, movement, metabolism, mind, intelligence, personality, individuality, thinking, desire, imagination, emotion, discrimination and initiative.

I think all of the things you are describing blur together, and are dependent on each other. I don't think they are really separate.

These qualities of the soul come and go and change with time, but the soul is always present. Consciousness is the most important symptom of the soul because although the contents of consciousness can vary consciousness the principal itself is always the same.

What do you mean by consciousness?

An understanding of the soul is pivotal to an understanding of God.

To understand God is to understand chaos.

Neither of us could have "won", its subject to opinion.

You have a clear double standard, when you don't believe a JW who dies b/c they believe blood is magical is a fucking idiot, but a follower of Pan IS a fucking idiot, for jumping off a building believing they can fly.

And your right, you can have this opinion, double standard and all, I just want you to be aware that your opinion DOES carry with it a double standard, and that is why I do not share your opinion.

I personally think having a double standard, makes your opinion intellectually dishonest, and inferior to one that might apply one standard.

[QUOTE=john_deer;10795638]First the Old Testament is a group of books. Isaiah would not have been able to do that. Look into it yourself.

Look up the author of the bible known as Q.

It doesn't matter, because.....

Recording a prophecy, and making everyone aware of this prophecy, CAN in fact intice people to create the prophecy. Which makes it a set of instructions, and not magical prediction. There is nothing you can say, that will indicate otherwise.

I'll have a go at those scriptures tonight (3am) but I can do further research into them..

No need. Between calling shit metaphors, and suggesting some of these prophecies just haven't come true yet, you are still able to convince yourself Isaiah had magical powers of prediction.

The different interpretations are from peoples view and many times religions distorting or changing the meaning, not the books fault.

Bullshit. The book is full of metaphors, contratdictions, riddles, and things open to broad interpretation, BY DESIGN. The same way horoscopes are designed to appeal to everyone, and leave itself open for INDIVIDUAL interpretation.

That is the ONLY WAY Jim Jones and Mother Teresa can use the SAME FUCKING BOOK, for two entirely different purposes.

Its made to be read by ones who want to serve god and thus have Gods blessing. And if you think its over-generalized you have yet to read Revelations.

I suppose you will quote me things from the book of Revelations, and interpret the cryptic passage for me out of what could be numerous DIFFERENT interpretations, and then proceed to tell me that it is not over-generalized.

You do realize that if you quote me something from revelations, and proceed to tell me that it is not over-generalized, all I have to do is point out several different perfectly valid interpretations of what the seven angels, seven seals, seven horns, etc., are, in order to make my point even more valid.

You have a clear double standard, when you don't believe a JW who dies b/c they believe blood is magical is a fucking idiot, but a follower of Pan IS a fucking idiot, for jumping off a building believing they can fly.

And your right, you can have this opinion, double standard and all, I just want you to be aware that your opinion DOES carry with it a double standard, and that is why I do not share your opinion.

I personally think having a double standard, makes your opinion intellectually dishonest, and inferior to one that might apply one standard.
Assuming the Bible is true then they would be idiots to take blood transfusions. Kudos to them for being the only/rare religion that sees how clearly the Bible condemns it. Assuming that Never never land is real then the Pan follower would have every reasons to believe in pixie dust and such.

The difference is that Peter Pan is a story and in the opinion of the JW the Bible is true and therefore would be stupid to accept blood transfusions. Like a solider who believes running into machine gun fire will help his country gain freedom. If he really believes in his country and think helping out will give freedom to his country and views his sacrifice as necessary then props to him.




No need. Between calling shit metaphors, and suggesting some of these prophecies just haven't come true yet, you are still able to convince yourself Isaiah had magical powers of prediction.

And by refusing to even look at my interpretations you are able to convince yourself that Isaiah wasn't God inspired. You say that I am making excuses for the Bible when your finding excuses for the prophecies contained in the Bible. Not the ones above but some of the clearer ones.


Bullshit. The book is full of metaphors, contratdictions, riddles, and things open to broad interpretation, BY DESIGN. The same way horoscopes are designed to appeal to everyone, and leave itself open for INDIVIDUAL interpretation.

That is the ONLY WAY Jim Jones and Mother Teresa can use the SAME FUCKING BOOK, for two entirely different purposes.

Both those people pick and choose things out of the Bible focusing on those scriptures that are generalizations to support their doctrines. Small matters put aside the Bible's main purpose and theme is very clear.




I suppose you will quote me things from the book of Revelations, and interpret the cryptic passage for me out of what could be numerous DIFFERENT interpretations, and then proceed to tell me that it is not over-generalized.

You do realize that if you quote me something from revelations, and proceed to tell me that it is not over-generalized, all I have to do is point out several different perfectly valid interpretations of what the seven angels, seven seals, seven horns, etc., are, in order to make my point even more valid.
I could tell you what I think it means but then yes you could do the above. Instead I could easily show some very specific prophecies. But then you'll make excuses to prove the prophecies invalid, just like you claim I make excuses to validate them.