I recently had an interesting conversation with someone on the issue of why they were vegetarian. The argument boiled down to this:

She is not vegetarian because: 1.) She does not believe in causing suffering to sentient life; 2.) She believes that by eating meat, we are causing suffering to sentient life (namely, the animal which we kill to eat); and therefore she does not eat meat.

Of course, our discussion went more in depth and we looked at why we think some of the premises her argument might hold or not hold true. I will save you the details (though provide them upon your request).

What I am interested is two things: first, whether you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous (or possibly are solely carnivorous); second, why you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous; and third, particularly to those who eat meat, on what grounds would you justify causing "suffering to sentient life," when there are alternatives)? Or if you do not believe that eating meat causes "suffering to sentient life" please provide a response as to why you do not believe this premise, or other problems you have with assumptions made in her argument.

Your responses appreciated!

Vegetables are for peasants and the ignorant.

What I want to know is what do moral vegetarians feed their carnivores pets. If they see it reprehensible to choose to eat animals then what does it say if they force their pets to eat animals, despite the fact it is what they need to eat... So tell me, what do they do?

What I want to know is what do moral vegetarians feed their carnivores pets. If they see it reprehensible to choose to eat animals then what does it say if they force their pets to eat animals, despite the fact it is what they need to eat... So tell me, what do they do?

Many don't believe in pets and many don't keep pets that are strictly carnivorous. They justify the killing of animals by other animals as the "wild" and don't have to contribute to any suffering for animals. You can usually find many holes in their thinking if you dig deep enough.

I am a omnivore because animals are too delicious for me to care whether they suffer or not.
*bites into some well-cooked baby cow*

I've got no problem with killing animals for food as it's natural; however rearing animals in an enclosure of any kind (be it field or battery cage) is not natural. The two main reasons I went vegetarian (or vegetablist as my flatmate says :cool:) are concerns over quality of life for the animal and macro-ecological concerns. The first one because I'm a tool when it comes to animals; I can watch a video of Russian conscripts being beheaded without flinching, but the idea of an animal suffering shits me up inside. The second because my old biology teacher scared the shart out of me talking about populations / starvation / future food prices/ land area needed to produce certain foods / trophic levels etc.

I have no grudge against or feeling of moral-superiority over people who eat meat whatsoever; BUT "vegetarians" who eat fish or white meat irritate me more than a chuff-itch. Surely if you're concerned about distress and ecological damage then fish and chicken are the worst things to be eating? I've yet to see a beef cow raised in a battery cage, or a dolphin get caught in pig netting.

I'm a vegetarian because I believe that the world is much more sustainable on a meatless diet, in terms of food production and the environment. For ethical and moral reasons, I don't support the meat industry or the way animals are reared and treated in farms and in slaughterhouses. Even buying organic meat doesn't guarantee that your meat wasn't treated like a piece of crap. Plus, the feed that a lot of animals eat while being raised is full of chemical additives and livestock are pumped full of hormones and chemicals to make them stronger, fatter, "healthier", etc. Yet not many people really know what these chemicals do. Look into Monsanto Corporation and the rBGH milk scandal. Even if these animals are not fed genetically enhanced/chemically modified products, sometimes they are forced to eat other types of meat. Like cows eating cows. Or pigs eating pigs. I don't think that's justifiable. Also because a vegetarian lifestyle is usually healthier than someone who eats meat, specifically red meat, which is very high in animal fat. So, three big reasons, in the order they matter most to me:

1. Sustainability/Environmental issues
2. Morality/Ethics
3. Health & Well-being

And that's why I'm a vegetarian.

Vegetables are for peasants and the ignorant.

No way, meat is soo for the peasantry, them and their damn mutton pies!!

I've got no problem with killing animals for food as it's natural


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

As for me, I'm a vegetarian purely on ethical reasons. I was a vegan for a long time, but I now eat some cheese. Imo, vegetarianism/veganism and even environmentalism are purely less-harm solutions. They are far from least-harm, but they are a step in the right direction, without completely withdrawing from modern society.

Supposing, and veggie eaters, I know this is a *BIG* supposing:

There is a way to raise meat in environmentally appropriate ways AND that eating good quality meat of this caliber actually has health benefits.

Is there a way to raise animals in such a way that is respectful (think "free range" etc.) and eat them as well? Or do you think this is a contradiction of terms?

I do not feel strong moral obligations to creatures of the animal kingdom and I have difficulty (some days) understanding why vegetarians and other animal rights activists have such strong compassion for animals. Anyone care to share?

Supposing, and veggie eaters, I know this is a *BIG* supposing:

There is a way to raise meat in environmentally appropriate ways AND that eating good quality meat of this caliber actually has health benefits.

Is there a way to raise animals in such a way that is respectful (think "free range" etc.) and eat them as well? Or do you think this is a contradiction of terms?

Yes, there is, and that's by buying your own livestock and raising it yourself, or knowing the farmer that you buy your livestock from. However, this is not very practical, and that's the problem. Because of a massive push to productivity, animals MUST be treated like products rather than living beings in order to get them in and out of the whole business as soon as possible.

In a perfect world, where I was sure that meat was raised ethically and responsibly and where it was much healthier for you, then I would eat meat. Until then, I'm sticking to my veggies.

I recently had an interesting conversation with someone on the issue of why they were vegetarian. The argument boiled down to this:

She is not vegetarian because: 1.) She does not believe in causing suffering to sentient life; 2.) She believes that by eating meat, we are causing suffering to sentient life (namely, the animal which we kill to eat); and therefore she does not eat meat.

Of course, our discussion went more in depth and we looked at why we think some of the premises her argument might hold or not hold true. I will save you the details (though provide them upon your request).

What I am interested is two things: first, whether you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous (or possibly are solely carnivorous); second, why you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous; and third, particularly to those who eat meat, on what grounds would you justify causing "suffering to sentient life," when there are alternatives)? Or if you do not believe that eating meat causes "suffering to sentient life" please provide a response as to why you do not believe this premise, or other problems you have with assumptions made in her argument.

Your responses appreciated!

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Well, I'm a vegan and (a few of) my reasons:

Of course, I don't want to be responsible for harming sentient life as already said ..

And I also don't really like the idea of eating a dead animal or it's secretions, just seems 'wrong' to me ..

Environmentally, meat is hugely destructive, takes about 54 kilos of feed to get 1 kilo of beef and huge amounts of water etc etc ..

And I can live perfectly well without it and still be healthy; I guess if I was in the situation where I truly couldn't survive without it I would eat meat; but I'm not going to willingly put myself in such a situation if I can help it .. But preservation of myself is my biggest priority, if it's either me or an animal dying then it'd be the animal, just the same if it was another human ..

And I also think that the food industry is hugely disconnected from the source, just walking up to a supermarket shelf and getting a bit of meat is just so separate to hunting a wild animal and eating the meat from it yourself it's a totally different thing.. I mean if you asked the average person where on the animal a piece of meat comes from they'd not be able to tell you ..

And why I'm vegan instead of vegetarian; animals will be harmed in some way and severely restricted in their freedom whatever method you use to raise them, and it's extremely difficult to tell how they have been just from a phrase on a packet, and on a more basic level I don't want to be putting my money towards an industry that will invariably kill the same animals in the end ..

What I find funny though is people saying 'are you allowed to eat this', as if I have some huge internal conflict that makes me not eat meat even though I really want it deep inside; but really I just don't want to at all in the first place ..


Just a couple thoughts ..

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Sure, I would...
..if I could. It's not easy to butcher yourself when you've just died humanely - just like the animals that provide meat do. The closest comparison you could make between eating meat from a cage raised animal is eating meat from a fit & healthly disease free prisoner electrocuted on death row. It's the same thing. Nothing else can really be drawn comparison to, especially not what you described. Death row execution subjects suffer more though.

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.
A very large proportion (think it was >90%) of the soybeans grown in the amazon formerly rainforest are imported to europe and america where they are fed to chickens to raise them..

A couple facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_meat_production
According to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain.

I forgot to add that I am a prime producer, and am not denying livestock don't take a lot of resources to raise. I agree with your link and the consideration of the subject amtter within it is one of the reasons I added Soya.

The reason I made the point to highlight rice, cotton, and soya was to bring it to the attention of those unaware had bad these crops are. The whole way industrialised (being industrialised is a good thing, but has drawbacks) countries have managed their food by making it en masse in other places is pretty much a disaster.

I also just wuld like to make a point that, As for textiles, if that's not going too far off subject, Hemp is something I truly believe in, as a very versatile crop. Best (legal) crop there is, pity it's restricted. I'm undecided on GM foods, my stance is slightly against them for now. You can't walk with a leg on either side of a barbed wire fence.

I absolutely abhor supermarket chains. Farmers markets and alternate means for the win!

Meat production definitely needs to be minimised, but it can't come anywhere near being abolished. That would be the end of the world, pretty much.


I couldn't care less if the pork industry was abolished. It's a lost industry - Muslims and jews don't eat pork, and while I'm neither that's a pretty large sector of the world market already gone. They're kept in battery pens, too, if that's something that concerns people. But that's not my reasoning...

..While I grant those arguing against me that a fair bit of what pigs eat is waste, I think you should consider that a fair bit of what they produce is waste also (and the rest isn't exactly health food). Compared to other animals, only a small portion of their carcass is butchered for either bacon, ham, or chops (I include ribs in here to make things easy) - pork is done in such a way that none of these products even come from the same pig.

Pigs are raised for one chosen whole product, so there is even more waste involved than you think.
The rest (waste, and varying grades of offal) goes into salamis, hotdogs, and pies, which are all processed foods these days (besides pet food), and processed foods as a whole need to dissapear. Without processed foods there's even less reason for the pork industry.

If it were specialised and not mass produced, then we wouldn't have such a problem. Small businesses and speciality butchers use most of the carcass with much less waste. Even the way their extent and use of offal is much more acceptable. If pork is made a small time thing, or abolished alotogether, it'd be the end of standalone piggerys.

Hemp is something I truly believe in, as a very versatile crop. Best (legal) crop there is, pity it's restricted.

Very true ..
Grows well in marginal areas, kills off weeds, puts nutrients into the soil ..
And has many uses, from as a drug, as food, as fuel, as fiber etc etc ..
Great plant :)

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Its survival of the fittest. We as humans are the strongest species on the planet and that is why we lord ourselves over the lesser creatures.

i used to be a vegan. for about 3 years actually. i did it for environmental reasons. the meat industry is a very inefficient use of our natural resources. i can understand people doing it for ethical reasons though. not only is the industry horribly inefficient, but it is also unnecessarily cruel.

that being said, now i am once more an omnivore. it is a healthier life style nutritionally speaking i think. also i love bacon far to much an that soy stuff just could not fill my cravings.

i'm a total-vegetarian. I eat a vegan diet, but don't take my animal rights views too far. I've been an off and on vegetarian for years, originally the beginning of my junior year of high school. Of which, i adopted the diet because i thought it better to slim down and gain stamina for boxing, also to ease stomach cramps and digestion. I embraced it originally but after a period of several months i began to eat meat about once or once every other month. I ate a pesce/pollo -tarian diet. It wasn't until the second semester of junior college that i began to look into my vegetarianism and embrace it more. I ate some meat on Christmas, '07 and some sausages with ricotta in April '08. I went totally vegan during the following summer. I ate some turkey on Thanksgiving (i've been doing that every single year since i've been a vegetarian), but excluding that i've been entirely vegetarian. I eat a vegan diet about 80% of the time, the only time i ever consume meat is on Thanksgiving and I never have milk, with the exception of the rare yogurt.

Real men eat spinach, just look at popeye.

Sure, I would...
..if I could. It's not easy to butcher yourself when you've just died humanely - just like the animals that provide meat do. The closest comparison you could make between eating meat from a cage raised animal is eating meat from a fit & healthly disease free prisoner electrocuted on death row. It's the same thing. Nothing else can really be drawn comparison to, especially not what you described. Death row execution subjects suffer more though.

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.

It is exactly the same, and i dont want to eat kentucky fried bob...

and i dont want to eat kentucky fried bob...
lmao :D

It is exactly the same, and i dont want to eat kentucky fried bob...

What is exactly the same? If you mean that the comparisons you drew through you analogy, then you're off the mark by a long shot. Your analogy was terrible. Did you notice I have said anal not once but three times now? :cool:.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

Magnificent.

Its survival of the fittest. We as humans are the strongest species on the planet and that is why we lord ourselves over the lesser creatures.

Hey chink.

If some white guy who's taller and stronger than you are (which might very well be the case), does that make it ok for him to lord it over you and kill you?

Provided you arent a masochist, which you might very well be, given that you are a fucking chink.

I believe that meat-eating in today's world is unethical, because animals/livestock are often raised in bad conditions and killed inhumanely.

If it were possible to raise animals and kill them humanely I wouldn't have a problem with it (I think it's morally wrong to cause suffering to sentient beings however I don't see anything wrong with killing them. Don't ask me why).

That being said I am not a vegetarian and I do eat meat, and when I think about this it makes me both feel bad and makes me realise that I am a hypocrite. That being said I really can't stop because meat truly tastes really good and I am only human.

Not trying to find an excuse for what I do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

You pernickety pillock!

What I meant to say was that the killing of animals in itself raises no moral objections in my mind, however the maltreatment of animals does, and it is the prevalence of maltreatment in the food industry which has lead me to be a vegetarian.

Its survival of the fittest. We as humans are the strongest species on the planet and that is why we lord ourselves over the lesser creatures.

This is related to the is-ought problem. Just because we ARE the strongest (read: most intelligent/powerful) doesn't mean we OUGHT to abuse that power or use it in a cavalier manner. Using this in a reducto ad absurdum, this argument would conclude that the US (or China in the near future) ought to dominate the rest of the world at its will or if aliens came to earth, they ought be able to abuse/use us for whatever they want. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Stupid american fuckers.

Heres some common vegetarian arguments debunked (http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm).

Also, here in australia we at least raise our beef properly and humanely. Which is why we have some of the best in the world.

Stupid american fuckers.

Heres some common vegetarian arguments debunked (http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm).

Also, here in australia we at least raise our beef properly and humanely. Which is why we have some of the best in the world.

That was a horribly inept article and the writer is very poor in the area of argumentation. Nothing was "debunked" here. Also, you should probably avoid calling anyone stupid, at least until you learn basic grammar.

That was a horribly inept article and the writer is very poor in the area of argumentation. Nothing was "debunked" here. Also, you should probably avoid calling anyone stupid, at least until you learn basic grammar.Care to enlighten me on your oh-so-unassailable ethical reasons for vegetarianism?

This is related to the is-ought problem. Just because we ARE the strongest (read: most intelligent/powerful) doesn't mean we OUGHT to abuse that power or use it in a cavalier manner. Using this in a reducto ad absurdum, this argument would conclude that the US (or China in the near future) ought to dominate the rest of the world at its will or if aliens came to earth, they ought be able to abuse/use us for whatever they want. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

I am saying that we have the right according to the law of the animal kingdom. People still continue to raise meat because a a large group of humans enjoy eating it. If animals were a conscious species then that would be a different matter, but animals are (with the exception of a select few which we wont eat anyways) living their lives as creatures of instinct. The large majority of animals that are bred to be eaten are some of the stupidest animals on the planet, if they wont even understand the loss of a mother (much less their own life) then why shouldn't we eat them? If they are not unnecessarily abused (and like i said, most wouldn't even understand that as abuse) then what is the loss of raising them for food.

To WAN, im not asian you stupid cunt

A lot of energy is lost in the process of raising animals for the purpose of slaughter, if we're to sustain a planet of ever-increasing population, it'll probably be necassery to cut down our meat consumption.

You shouldn't ever criticise vegetarians for their lifestyle choice, their sacrifice means one more of us can still eat meat without letting people starve.

Then again, you could argue that the planet is already too populated and can't sustain current populations, and that more and more people becoming vegetarian is allowing more people to be born and survive, who in turn will probably contribute to pollution, wasting resources, etc, etc.

If animals were a conscious species then that would be a different matter
Why do you believe that they aren't conscious?


The large majority of animals that are bred to be eaten are some of the stupidest animals on the planet
Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with the capacity to feel pain. And they are often very intelligent animals, as an example sheep have been shown to recognize individual other sheep that they hadn't seen for years, and other animals are just as equally intelligent.

, if they wont even understand the loss of a mother (much less their own life) then why shouldn't we eat them? If they are not unnecessarily abused (and like i said, most wouldn't even understand that as abuse) then what is the loss of raising them for food.

Yes they DO understand the loss of a mother very clearly. When calves are separated from their mothers just days after birth so that the cows can create milk they are often seen crying after each other for weeks afterwards, and they can definitely understand abuse and pain, I'd ask you to watch any video of an animal being in factory farming, moved around, physically hurt etc etc etc and try to tell me they are not in obvious distress, of course they are ..
I mean people here have dogs right? If someone started beating the shit out of a random dog on a street you'd stop it? Would you have any problems eating that dog, when other animals farmed animals are just as intelligent or even more, even though intelligence doesn't equal the capacity to feel pain ?



Just a couple thoughts ..

Vegans are fucking retarded.

This is related to the is-ought problem. Just because we ARE the strongest (read: most intelligent/powerful) doesn't mean we OUGHT to abuse that power or use it in a cavalier manner. Using this in a reducto ad absurdum, this argument would conclude that the US (or China in the near future) ought to dominate the rest of the world at its will or if aliens came to earth, they ought be able to abuse/use us for whatever they want. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

http://www.godlovespeople.com/starving_child-sudan2.jpg http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/files/images/obese-man.jpg

fCUK AMERICA!

Personally I enjoy nothing more then chewing into a big hunk of blood red steak but that is besides the point.

I feel no remorse for the animals and how they are raised (Except of course in some extreme circumstances).
Nor do I have any problems shooting , gutting and eating wild animals.

My Mum has been a strict vegeterian since she was 18 but in her words she doesnt enjoy the taste or meat so she doesn't feel compelled to eat it.

As was mentioned earlier here in Australia (And I'm sure MOST other places in the world) animals are treated very humanly before being slaughtered. There are and always will be exceptions but people who bitch and whinge that we shouldn't eat meat becuase it hurts the animals when they die. How does it feel in the wild when a lion chomps on there ass and then slowly guts them?

I am sure we kill alot more humanly then that.


I have no problem if you chose not to eat meat by the way.

Does this mean we can lead into a whaling debate?

As was mentioned earlier here in Australia (And I'm sure MOST other places in the world) animals are treated very humanly before being slaughtered. There are and always will be exceptions
Well in the vast majority of cases I'd say it's the other way round ..

Well in the vast majority of cases I'd say it's the other way round ..

You don't know anything about the majority of cases, and really, you don't know what you're talking about.

We know you would say it's the other way round, but do you think that means anywthing? You're misinformed or just plain wrong mate, and it sounds like you get all your information from PETA and a certain DVD narrated by Alec Baldwin. Feel free to continue living with your head up your arse on the subject, but for the love of all humanity don't keep preaching propaganda and trying to enforce your will & wants onto others.

I mean that in the most polite of ways, it's just blunt because I'm against sugar coating things.

You don't know anything about the majority of cases, and really, you don't know what you're talking about.

We know you would say it's the other way round, but do you think that means anywthing? You're misinformed or just plain wrong mate, and it sounds like you get all your information from PETA and a certain DVD narrated by Alec Baldwin. Feel free to continue living with your head up your arse on the subject, but for the love of all humanity don't keep preaching propaganda and trying to enforce your will & wants onto others.

I mean that in the most polite of ways, it's just blunt because I'm against sugar coating things.

I'm not telling anybody to do anything, I'm simply stating facts and defending myself when people say things against me ..

And why do you think you know vastly more than me about how animals are treated and that you know animals are treated well that is not produced by the meat industry?
Please, give me a source that tells me that the majority of animals are treated well?

From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_farming
According to the Worldwatch Institute, 74 percent of the world's poultry, 43 percent of beef, and 68 percent of eggs are produced this way.
Would you not agree that confining an animal for all of it's life is not treating it with the best intentions?
And as for the environmental damage, there was a UN commissioned report which I would say is pretty much totally unbiased, and comes to the conclusion that meat/animal agriculture is hugely damaging to the environment in many ways .. have a look, it's a very comprehensive report ..
http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/FAO/livestocks_long_shadow.pdf

Most animals kill other animals for food. It's only a problem because humans have morals, and outside of our heads, morality doesn't exist.

That said, if someone's personal morals say that they shouldn't kill animals, then eating vegetables is their perogative. But, I do think it's somewhat ironic that they don't mind eating vegetables, even though plant-life is just as alive as you or me. You can't really preach about respecting life as you chop and tear up living plants so you can devour them in your salad.

... even though plant-life is just as alive as you or me.

Are you trolling or just drunk?

I'm an omnivore.

Some animals taste good, some plants taste good. Why deny yourself any of the meats or things like eggs?

I also know that even if I was to magically decide not to eat meat anymore that loads of animals would still get killed (because most people will still eat meat, because it's healthy and tasty). I think a better course of action to save the animals would be to try create a superior product that's a bit more humane in its upbringing or in the case of battery chooks, just encourage people to keep a few chooks penned up in their backyard. I think back when we used to have chooks (chickens) at my place they'd cost about $4 to buy if you got them when they were small. They'd also have a useful lifespan of about 5 years at least. We usually had between 6 and 10 at any time, and all that was required was buying a couple of bags of grain every few months or so and then chucking our scraps in a bucket and feeding them that every day.

Are you trolling or just drunk?

...

Are you trolling, or just an idiot? I didn't know that a qualification for being alive was being a member of the animal Kingdom.

I use to eat a lot of meat.

About 4 months ago I became a vegetarian. Haven't eaten any meat since. I don't feel any different. I just some normal guy who doesn't eat meat.

I'm not out protesting animal rights and I'm not a health nut. I think those are the two main reasons that most people don't eat meat.

Not killing animals is good. I don't think anyone is in favor of killing animals. They just consider it an acceptable loss.
Being healthy is nice, but with all the smoking and drinking I do, I doubt eating a little healthier will make too much of a difference. Besides, the effects of eating healthy are nothing compared to the effect of a decent amount of exercise (something most people are lacking).

My reasons for not eating meat are more political. There isn't enough meat to go around. Supporting livestock is hurting the environment. Its easier to be self sufficient and produce your own food if you don't eat meat. And support animal rights and being healthy isn't bad either. Their aren't many good reasons to not be a vegetarian.

. Besides, the effects of eating healthy are nothing compared to the effect of a decent amount of exercise


Really? Do you have a source for this please?

Source?

Try all the thin people I know eating junk food and pizza all day while playing sports while all the fat people buy diet books and lean cuisine and shit like that.

...

Are you trolling, or just an idiot? I didn't know that a qualification for being alive was being a member of the animal Kingdom.

Since when did 'being alive' become a prohibitive critieria for vegetarians with regard to what they eat in the first place, you stunned cunt?

Since when did 'being alive' become a prohibitive critieria for vegetarians with regard to what they eat in the first place, you stunned cunt?

Since some of them began claiming that they are vegetarians because they "don't believe in killing." That wasn't necessarily said in this thread, but it is an argument that many vegetarians make. They perhaps don't believe in killing some other animals, though they tend to not give much of a fuck about plants, insects, and seafood.

Stop posting.

Since some of them began claiming that they are vegetarians because they "don't believe in killing." That wasn't necessarily said in this thread, but it is an argument that many vegetarians make. They perhaps don't believe in killing some other animals, though they tend to not give much of a fuck about plants...

When these "many vegetarians" (who exactly?) refer to "killing" I assume they speak killing other creatures with a CNS. The presence of a nervous system being a fundamental difference between animals and fucking plants, you ass. Unfortunately the same dumbfuck literal interpretations which make you such wonderful trollbait, render you incapable of grasping what they're saying.

...insects, and seafood.

veg·e·tar·i·an (vj-târ-n)
n.
1. One who practices vegetarianism.
2. A herbivore.

These people are by default non-vegetarians, hence their actions bear no reflection on the vegetarian lifestyle irrespective of what they may call themselves.

Stop posting.

I will once this site is rid of alcoholic baboons.

When these "many vegetarians" (who exactly?) refer to "killing" I assume they speak killing other creatures with a CNS. The presence of a nervous system being a fundamental difference between animals and fucking plants, you ass. Unfortunately the same dumbfuck literal interpretations which make you such wonderful trollbait, render you incapable of grasping what they're saying.



veg·e·tar·i·an (vj-târ-n)
n.
1. One who practices vegetarianism.
2. A herbivore.

These people are by default non-vegetarians, hence their actions bear no reflection on the vegetarian lifestyle irrespective of what they may call themselves.



I will once this site is rid of alcoholic baboons.

Having a CNS has nothing to do with being alive. Plants are alive, and vegetarians that claim to have a problem with killing other living things are killing living things by eating plants. Period. I certainly may be in the minority in considering plants to be just as alive as a living human, but human ignorance has nothing to do with the reality of what a living thing is. Now, I personally don't have a problem with eating plants (or meat, for that matter), but I'm not in denial.

As for the term "vegetarian": Colloquially, it is perfectly acceptable as a term referring to those who don't eat poultry, pork, or beef products. Since you do apparently speak some English, you probably already know this, so stop being willfully ignorant.

The overall point here is that a vegeterian who claims to not eat meat for the sake of respecting and saving life, is a hypocrite. My point in mentioning insects and seafood was to illustrate that even within the animal kingdom, some vegeterians don't really care about respecting and saving all life. It has nothing to do with whether they eat insects and seafood, but rather, the average "omg don't kill living things" douche isn't concerned about a dead ant or shrimp. If they don't like dead farm animals, dogs, and cats, they should just say that instead of laying it on thick with the "living things" bullshit.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand: Unless you can prove to me that a plant remains living even after being cut up, eaten, and digested, then you really have nothing to say. Well, nothing...aside from your usual whining.

Drache and the Beast have got a little misunderstandin going on, yeah? Living is one thing, conscious-ness is another.

It has been tauntingly posed that "plants have feelings too". Funnily enough the most recent actual scientific theory to back this classic taunt up that comes to mind was posed by a Swede.


As for that preacher boy whom posted earlier (scovenger?), I am pretty darn sure I know more on that particular subject than you do. I dare you to challenge me.

:)

As for that preacher boy whom posted earlier (scovenger?), I am pretty darn sure I know more on that particular subject than you do. I dare you to challenge me.

*Shivers in the presence of the terrible might of knowledge contained in A Cowboy Of The Apocalypse*
DON'T HURT ME MASTER!

Having a CNS has nothing to do with being alive. Plants are alive, and vegetarians that claim to have a problem with killing other living things are killing living things by eating plants. Period. I certainly may be in the minority in considering plants to be just as alive as a living human, but human ignorance has nothing to do with the reality of what a living thing is. Now, I personally don't have a problem with eating plants (or meat, for that matter), but I'm not in denial.

You are perverting what people/the vegetarians are saying. If I am not mistaken, most vegatarians have a problem with the killing of sentient beings, not all living things.

As for the term "vegetarian": Colloquially, it is perfectly acceptable as a term referring to those who don't eat poultry, pork, or beef products. Since you do apparently speak some English, you probably already know this, so stop being willfully ignorant.

That's what you seemed to be implying. If you don't want people to make assumptions, be precise when you make comments in a thread.

Physician heal thyself. :rolleyes:

The fact remains that by dictionary definition you're talking bollocks, so spare me your smartass colloquial translations because we're in Humanities, not Cunning Linguists. And for the record I acknowledge no accepted definition of vegetarian that allows for the consumption of seafood, albeit having met people (idiots) who claim otherwise.

When these "many vegetarians" (who exactly?) refer to "killing" I assume they speak killing other creatures with a CNS.


Having a CNS has nothing to do with being alive. Plants are alive, and vegetarians that claim to have a problem with killing other living things are killing living things by eating plants. Period. I certainly may be in the minority in considering plants to be just as alive as a living human, but human ignorance has nothing to do with the reality of what a living thing is. Now, I personally don't have a problem with eating plants (or meat, for that matter), but I'm not in denial.

No shit Sherlock, but it has a lot to do with being a more complex form of life, the kind which vegetarians (by definition (http://www.vegsoc.org/info/whatis.html)) object to consuming. I've made absolutely no statement to the affect that 'organisms without CNS's aren't truly alive', so stop talking shit. I was merely commenting on what I thought your elusive "many vegetarians" meant by the colloquial use of the would "killing", i.e. murder.

And no one murders a fucking cabbage.

Any of this sinking in yet?

The overall point here is that a vegeterian who claims to not eat meat for the sake of respecting and saving life, is a hypocrite. My point in mentioning insects and seafood was to illustrate that even within the animal kingdom, some vegeterians don't really care about respecting and saving all life. It has nothing to do with whether they eat insects and seafood, but rather, the average "omg don't kill living things" douche isn't concerned about a dead ant or shrimp. If they don't like dead farm animals, dogs, and cats, they should just say that instead of laying it on thick with the "living things" bullshit.

I assume they're referring to complex forms of life, defined in this case by having a nervous system. Given this qualitative difference between the animal and plant kingdoms, I see no hypocrisy.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand: Unless you can prove to me that a plant remains living even after being cut up, eaten, and digested, then you really have nothing to say.

I'll respond to the points which I actually make, not to the ones which you fabricate.

*Shivers in the presence of the terrible might of knowledge contained in A Cowboy Of The Apocalypse*
DON'T HURT ME MASTER!

So how many years you been in the business? I'm sure you've got a rough idea of how meat gets to your neighbour's table (well it obviously doesn't get to yours), but I've got to say that unlike the rest of your writing in this thread, it's pretty bogus.

I'm talking from first hand experience combined with thorough knowledge of the laws & regulations (which no farm/station, abbotoir, or meat packing plant has any reason to break) that govern the treatment of livestock from birth to slaughter. I have no reason to tell your anything other than the truth, and I'm no dumb lemming. So you can rest assured that I, a hardcore advocate of the proper ethical treatment for animals, primary producer of livestock, and experienced executioner and packer, know what I'm talking about. If that's not first hand, I'll saw my own legs off.




As was mentioned earlier here in Australia (And I'm sure MOST other places in the world) animals are treated very humanly before being slaughtered. There are and always will be exceptions

Well in the vast majority of cases I'd say it's the other way round ..

It might be different in your part of the world, but in mine* it's as I have previously narrated.
Your claim is far closer to wild fantasy in any case than it is to any fact or figure (especially one to use in a debate), but on that point you will not follow as I have no material proof, and can only offer you my word;

I'm sure enough of this to go out and make that claim, without having a full set of conclusive evidence. Do you have the faith to accept?

I promise to you, Scovenger, that the proportion of livestock handled inhumanely is so small in comparison to the rest that it's an insignificant figure.


Now, the way you take that depends on your interpretation of humanely, but let me put it to you that it roughly means very little to no suffering, including pain, fear, distress, and etcetera.

It seems you agreed with Mad Mentos. Madmentos's completely rediculous blown out claim (That I would say generalisation, but that would imply case of majority, and that's definitely incorrect) is so fabricated that I am surpirsed anyone at all takes it seriously. I really did think better of you than to slip on that.



*Australia, which happens to be the place the Australian beef and Australian lamb that dominate international markets originates.


P.S. For pretty much the rest of what you've said, I side with you very strongly about. It's just this one point that you're wrong about.

I assume they're referring to complex forms of life, defined in this case by having a nervous system. Given this qualitative difference between the animal and plant kingdoms, I see no hypocrisy.
.

Maybe you shouldn't assume. There's a big difference between "life" and "complex forms of life". Some vegetarians (xxombie in particular, on this site) have claimed that they have such a lifestyle out of respect for life on Earth. I saw no mention of "complex forms of life only".

You stunned spotted dick.

... it is an argument that many vegetarians make.

Maybe you shouldn't assume. There's a big difference between "life" and "complex forms of life". Some vegetarians (xxombie in particular, on this site) have claimed that they have such a lifestyle out of respect for life on Earth.

I wouldn't have to assume shit if your sample base of "many" (lol) extended beyond one unquoted totse eco-punk.

I was merely commenting on what I thought your elusive "many vegetarians" meant by the colloquial use of the would "killing", i.e. murder.

I saw no mention of "complex forms of life only".

As I've already pointed out, in simplified baby-puree style for you... you wouldn't haven't seen "complex forms of life only" because you can't brutally kill a fucking carrot in the same way you can a fish. I thought a colloquial wise ass like you would have grasped the implicit meaning behind kill/killing and it's non-use in reference to fucking vegetables.

You stunned spotted dick.

Crushing.

Everclear seems to sharpen your tongue no end, DerDrache, such a shame it doesn't do the same for your reasoning skills.

This has descended to a flamefest.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Australia_Cairns_Flame.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Australia_Cairns_Flame.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Australia_Cairns_Flame.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Australia_Cairns_Flame.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Australia_Cairns_Flame.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Australia_Cairns_Flame.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Australia_Cairns_Flame.jpg

Anyways, let's get back to talking about vegetarianism, and not the colour of our perpendicular sperm deployers.

***

I would like both of you to answer the following questions, without taking any personal shots:

1) Is it okay to kill plants to eat them? Why?
2) Is it okay to domesticate animals to eat what they produce? Why?
3) Is it okay to kill animals to eat them? Why?
40 Is it ALWAYS okay to kill animals to eat them (regardless of the condition in which they are raised)? Why?

That should point us back on course.

I would like both of you to answer the following questions, without taking any personal shots:

1) Is it okay to kill plants to eat them? Why?
2) Is it okay to domesticate animals to eat what they produce? Why?
3) Is it okay to kill animals to eat them? Why?
40 Is it ALWAYS okay to kill animals to eat them (regardless of the condition in which they are raised)? Why?

That should point us back on course.

1. Yes. They're there and plenty of other things eat them.

2. Yes. We're humans, they aren't. It's good to be able to do things other than walk around looking for an animal to kill so you can have something for dinner.

3. Yes. They taste good and are generally good for you.

4. Depends, do you really care about the animal? Is there a viable alternative that'll deliver the same product at a similar price and more humanely?

Is there a viable alternative that'll deliver the same product at a similar price and more humanely?

I know in the west, a lot of places stun the animals before killing them. I mean I applaud them for their humanitarian efforts, however what I don't get is, wouldn't it be easier to just get a really sharp blade, then cut the animal's head clean off? This would save them the trouble of having to stun the animal first, not to mention it would also accomplish the actual killing ....

I know in the west, a lot of places stun the animals before killing them. I mean I applaud them for their humanitarian efforts, however what I don't get is, wouldn't it be easier to just get a really sharp blade, then cut the animal's head clean off? This would save them the trouble of having to stun the animal first, not to mention it would also accomplish the actual killing ....

Maybe because the way it's done now is easier? Or maybe because getting an animal to stand still in a place that smells like death could be a bit difficult.

This has descended to a flamefest.


Yeah. That's what happens when Slave of the Beast enters a thread. He apparently has trouble with the notion that anything other than (complex) animals are living. Then again, I suppose his skewed thinking is exactly what I was trying to point out.



I would like both of you to answer the following questions, without taking any personal shots:

1) Is it okay to kill plants to eat them? Why?
2) Is it okay to domesticate animals to eat what they produce? Why?
3) Is it okay to kill animals to eat them? Why?
40 Is it ALWAYS okay to kill animals to eat them (regardless of the condition in which they are raised)? Why?

That should point us back on course.

1 through 3) Yes. All animals eat plants and/or meat, and we're no different. We need energy to survive, and while plants get their energy from the sun, we have to get our energy from plants and meat. Vegetarians who claim to respect life only extend their morality to living things that they can relate to themselves. Dogs and cats express comprehensible emotion, thus many people have a problem with killing them. Dolphins also express such obvious emotion, thus while nobody gives a fuck about a thousand tuna-fish getting killed, they will complain for hours on end about a single dolphin.

Instead of talking about "life", while excluding the vast majority of things that are living, I don't claim to have a moral problem with ending life, but rather, the excessive and needless ending of life. Now, I do tend to have more concern for animals than plant lifeforms, but not to the extent that I will whine about cute animals while not giving two shits about plants or simpler animals.

4) As long as the animals are raised in a healthy, non-abusive man-made environment, I don't have a problem.

I've made absolutely no statement to the affect that 'organisms without CNS's aren't truly alive', so stop talking shit.

Yeah. That's what happens when Slave of the Beast enters a thread. He apparently has trouble with the notion that anything other than (complex) animals are living. Then again, I suppose his skewed thinking is exactly what I was trying to point out.

I'd be more cordial if you didn't repeatedly resort to posting fictitious bullshit.

i don't eat meat because i think eating flesh is gross and primitive. and seeing girls eat nasty ass hamburgers is a complete turn off. :p

I eat meat to limit the killing of life forms. It makes sense when you think about it. Cows raised in grass paddocks eat nothing but grass, and transfer it to a usable form (flesh) for me. The grass grows back, and more cows eat it. Humans are unable to subside on grass for nutrition/survival.

Now, a cow worth of meat has enough calories for me to survive.....a lot longer than a patch of grass. I only have to kill one cow to eat for a long time. To subsist on vegetable matter, which has far fewer calories, would require me to eat a variety of fruits and vegetables just to gain adequate nutrition. That's several organisms that won't see the light of day again, just for my dinner.

Make the guiltless choice and switch to a carnivorous diet.