What got me the idea for writing this thread was the culmination of two recent events. One happened to me and the other was a friend's anecdote.

The first event was at a party with some friends. It was a friendly get together until these two guys showed up. You could easily tell they were on some kind of "psycho-intimidation" type vibe and were trying to scare everyone. They would go up to all the girls there telling them to suck their dicks, talk shit to the guys there and tons of other rude and uncalled for shit.

Eventually the guys made their way over to me. One of them had blond hair and piercings on his face, the other brown hair. The brown haired guy was definitely the more reserved of the two. The blond haired guy was the one being the rudest and trying to intimidate the hardest.

I guess the brown haired guy could tell I may own a set of balls and defend myself so he laid off trying the intimidation shit. His blond haired counterpart though took a different route and really started testing me. He started like grabbing my manboobs and then he went for my dick. At that moment some animal shit kicked in and I threw maybe one or two punches and that guy was on the floor within seconds. Turns out those two guys were soft as fuck kids from some hick town.

In that situation I felt the violence I engaged in was justified.


Now for the other event. The one I described as a friends anecdote. It goes like this: My friend was taking the bus home from work, he does construction so he was carrying a hammer and other tools. When he stepped on the bus, three black guys, sitting two or three rows up started laughing and commenting that they wished they had that hammer when they beat some guy down.

My friend chuckled and then took a seat. Then he witnessed something very unusual. One of the three tall black guys proceeded to roll up a newspaper, spit on it, and then bash some random white guy on the head with it.

The stunned white guy gets up and starts screaming some shit, the black guys rush him and start senselessly beating on him. One of the black guys shouts "he called me a nigger" (which was completely untrue).

The bus driver stopped the bus and the white guy managed to escape and lock himself into a nearby donut store.

So those are the two events.

What I would like to know is when is violence justified? When should one use force? I believed my use of force in the first example was justified, but what of the situation with the black guys. If I was that white guy on the bus what would I do? If I fought back against those black guys, I'd surely lose. Would the right thing to do fight back and lose? Would the right thing be to just take the humiliation and walk away?

TLDR; When should one use violence? or When is use of force necessary?

He started like grabbing my manboobs

...lol, you've got manboobs

I don't think the guy in the second scenario would have been justified in using violence in retaliation because he was not in any sort of immediate danger. His best bet would probably be to just ignore them because if they failed to get a rise out of him then they would probably have just moved on. The guy would have been justified in responding to the three black guys in a nonviolent way.

Also, I don't think you were entirely justified in your use of violence, the other guys were just being pricks and/or were drunk/high. I could understand you trying to protect your rep but they were obviously lightweight(er)s, what did you prove by knocking a pussy out?

One of the black guys shouts "he called me a nigger" (which was completely untrue).



Hahahaha, they do that ALL the time. Really pisses me off.

I don't think the guy in the second scenario would have been justified in using violence in retaliation because he was not in any sort of immediate danger. His best bet would probably be to just ignore them because if they failed to get a rise out of him then they would probably have just moved on. The guy would have been justified in responding to the three black guys in a nonviolent way.

Also, I don't think you were entirely justified in your use of violence, the other guys were just being pricks and/or were drunk/high. I could understand you trying to protect your rep but they were obviously lightweight(er)s, what did you prove by knocking a pussy out?

I agree with the last part, I should have probably kept my cool.

The first part though... You get smacked on the head with a spit on newspaper and you just ignore your attacker? That seems a little fucked up. But it is a tough question as retaliating could result in serious injury or death. I think now, that the best decision would be some kind of verbal condemnation, but not provoking. In the heat of the moment that would be very tricky.

I suppose in theory violence should only be used in self defense against serious harm. Does anyone really stick to that though? I wish I had some kind of perfect code for when to be violent and when not to be.

I agree with the last part, I should have probably kept my cool.

The first part though... You get smacked on the head with a spit on newspaper and you just ignore your attacker? That seems a little fucked up. But it is a tough question as retaliating could result in serious injury or death. I think now, that the best decision would be some kind of verbal condemnation, but not provoking. In the heat of the moment that would be very tricky.

I suppose in theory violence should only be used in self defense against serious harm. Does anyone really stick to that though? I wish I had some kind of perfect code for when to be violent and when not to be.

I agree with you on when violence should be used. Although, I don't think he should have "condemned" the guys, at most he should have asked them politely to stop, it sounds like the three guys were just itching to fight.

Perfect code? I don't think there is one.

I don't think he should have "condemned" the guys, at most he should have asked them politely to stop

Your telling me if I bashed you over the head with a solid object, the most you would do is politely ask me to stop? Or does the fact I am white change your decision here...

You say it was a newspaper? At MOST it will sting. It really is just an annoyance. Now, if you came at me with a hammer I would be inclined to take some kind of action (most likely run, but you get the idea).

EDIT: Race, even if you are not motivated by it, can make a situation more volatile if others think that what you are doing is racially motivated.

You say it was a newspaper? At MOST it will sting. It really is just an annoyance. Now, if you came at me with a hammer I would be inclined to take some kind of action (most likely run, but you get the idea).

EDIT: Race, even if you are not motivated by it, can make a situation more volatile if others think that what you are doing is racially motivated.

Okay. But, is it right to just take that kind of abuse from people? Does one not have a responsibility to take action in order to send a message that this kind of stuff is out of line?

Back in the olden days this kind of behavior would get a man killed. Nowadays people just idly sit by and watch others get hurt.

Classic example of what people are turning into:
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=5e5e949c-989a-47f7-86da-53801510af24

Thats a link to the story of a man who was beheaded on a Canadian greyhound bus. Everyone just sat idly by and watched a psychopath cut the head off some random dude sitting next to him.

Like Wtf... Are people nowadays honestly this cowardly and weak?

Granted that is pretty fucked, I could see why people would be wary, I mean, he is fucking the guys fucking head off. But point taken. There is a big difference between getting swatted with a newspaper and having I guy carve you like a turkey. I think there could actually be a significant drop in homicides if people would just leave well enough alone and not have things come to such a painful (literally) point.

Granted that is pretty fucked, I could see why people would be wary, I mean, he is fucking the guys fucking head off. But point taken. There is a big difference between getting swatted with a newspaper and having I guy carve you like a turkey. I think there could actually be a significant drop in homicides if people would just leave well enough alone and not have things come to such a painful (literally) point.

The point I was trying to make was that if people stepped in, this guy's head may still be attached to his body. a supreme example of the passiveness of modern man.

That's an interesting topic.

In the first case in the OP, I think the violence was justified. Kicking the shit out of both of them wouldn't have been, but a punch to teach them a lesson was the right thing to do. They just wouldn't have understood it any other way, unfortunately.

In the second case, it was unjustified. In the way that he knew he didn't stand a chance. If he knew he could defend himself against both of them / take them out, his actions would've been correct. Why? Because those guys were scum, and they wouldn't learn any other way.

Moral of the story: get big and strong, so that you can take action when you're in the right.

You should have started treating the blond guy like he was treating you. If this pissed him off and you felt him become more aggressive you should have knocked him the fuck out. Because the only reason he'd become more aggressive towards you is if he thinks your behavior is unacceptable, which makes his initial behavior equally unacceptable and he wasn't treating people how he wanted to be treated.

You should have started treating the blond guy like he was treating you. If this pissed him off and you felt him become more aggressive you should have knocked him the fuck out. Because the only reason he'd become more aggressive towards you is if he thinks your behavior is unacceptable, which makes his initial behavior equally unacceptable and he wasn't treating people how he wanted to be treated.

Thats a nice formula for using violence.

Agent 008: I agree that if self defense was possible against the "scum" that action would have been justified.

perhaps the sad fact is that those who go out and provoke, assault others for fun etc; will never learn except through force...

The point I was trying to make was that if people stepped in, this guy's head may still be attached to his body. a supreme example of the passiveness of modern man.

I think that's actually a very poor example. What do you expect, some John Rambo type guy to jump over the bus seat, round house kick the guy, catch the knife in mid air and stab him between the eyes?

I don't see how you can condemn a group of unarmed passengers for not approaching a man who is stabbing someone to death with a knife in an enclosed space. It's real life.

Pride isn't a great reason to use violence, it's not shameful to leave a situation where you could get hurt rather then standing up for yourself. Only you can really judge when it's appropriate to start to use force, but avoid it if possible.

The point I was trying to make was that if people stepped in, this guy's head may still be attached to his body. a supreme example of the passiveness of modern man.

So basically he would have been less dead?

I think that's actually a very poor example. What do you expect, some John Rambo type guy to jump over the bus seat, round house kick the guy, catch the knife in mid air and stab him between the eyes?


You know how easy it would be to give that guy a swift kick in the face while he is in middle of ripping another man's head off?

Come on... not even one person on that damn bus feels any need to protect his fellow man?

So basically he would have been less dead?

Getting stabbed in the neck does not automatically mean your dead. There was still a chance the man's life could have been saved in the midst of the attack.

I think it is pretty much assured that the victim was dead before his head was sawn off because if you are killed outright a stab to the neck will surely wake you up. So pretty much, the dude was dead and so the other people acted in their own self-interest and got the hell out of dodge. This seems pretty useless to go on nitpicking over this particular situation (although I do see its relevance).

You know how easy it would be to give that guy a swift kick in the face while he is in middle of ripping another man's head off?

Come on... not even one person on that damn bus feels any need to protect his fellow man?




It wouldn't be easy at all. The guy is a knife wielding psycho. It's easy to imagine and talk about what you would do but real life is different. I highly doubt you would do anything to try to stop him in the situation, if you did try then it would probably turn into two victims rather then one (no I'm not talking about the psycho). It's not like this was a bus full of people coming back from a karate championship, or Afghanistan war veterans just a bunch of normal people including woman and children. To say they felt no need to protect their fellow man is really unfair to the people who lived through that horrible event.

I use violence when words can't describe my anger.

You know how easy it would be to give that guy a swift kick in the face while he is in middle of ripping another man's head off?

Come on... not even one person on that damn bus feels any need to protect his fellow man?



Getting stabbed in the neck does not automatically mean your dead. There was still a chance the man's life could have been saved in the midst of the attack.

Accounts said he was stabbing MacLean 'like a robot' - very quickly and forcefully - how many stabs directly to the throat of the sleeping man he got in before anybody even noticed - 3 or 4 ... how many before the shock of seeing such an extreme act of violence wore off enough for action to be taken? Nothing could have saved that man's life...I'm 6 feet tall, 215 pounds, play football and have fight training and when that event happened I thought..what would I have done. If I was sitting directly next to them...MAYBE have an opportunity to grab the guy's arm or something - but like I said..the shock of seeing that would probably freeze you at least until he got a few more stabs in...And no, there wasn't a big fight trained man in the seat next to them..It was a woman with her 2 kids...

And, you think it would be easy to kick somebody in the face on a fucking bus? Are you kidding me? How would you have the room...picture a bus - it would be hard as fuck to do..IF anybody stepped in it would have to be an upper body struggle to get the knife - risking stab injuries to yourself for a man who was already dead.

I hate when people blame the other passengers - people who themselves will never be put in a situation like that feel that it's their right to pontificate down on others about what the humane and right course of action should have been taken. Grow up.

I hate when people blame the other passengers - people who themselves will never be put in a situation like that feel that it's their right to pontificate down on others about what the humane and right course of action should have been taken. Grow up.

Well I wasn't there so I really don't know exactly what happened.

If I came across like I feel it's my right to pontificate on people, you have it wrong. I was just using this as an example, and perhaps it is a poor one.

I used it as an example how people seem to believe that the only people entitled to use force are the "trained professionals" and because of this they have forgotten that it is possible for them to defend themselves or defend others if necessary.

I live in Canada so I think it is worse for me. There are laws here that have put honest men and women, who have warded off an attacker, (perhaps injured or killed them, in the process) being put in jail. Or getting sued for every posession they own and that money going to the criminal who attacked them (a cut to the lawyer of course ;)).

I think these fucked laws very much encourage this mindset. And the fact that this event occurred in Canada probably played a factor in me deciding to use it as an example.

I think our society is getting very pacified. And I do not believe that it is a good thing (take that, Ghandi).

Well I wasn't there so I really don't know exactly what happened.

If I came across like I feel it's my right to pontificate on people, you have it wrong. I was just using this as an example, and perhaps it is a poor one.

I used it as an example how people seem to believe that the only people entitled to use force are the "trained professionals" and because of this they have forgotten that it is possible for them to defend themselves or defend others if necessary.

I live in Canada so I think it is worse for me. There are laws here that have put honest men and women, who have warded off an attacker, (perhaps injured or killed them, in the process) being put in jail. Or getting sued for every posession they own and that money going to the criminal who attacked them (a cut to the lawyer of course ;)).

I think these fucked laws very much encourage this mindset. And the fact that this event occurred in Canada probably played a factor in me deciding to use it as an example.

I think our society is getting very pacified. And I do not believe that it is a good thing (take that, Ghandi).

I think the whole "trained professional" bit is less prevalent in the U.S. because of the right to bear arms clause in the constitution (you canucks have something similar in your constitution, no?). This says "hey, you have the right to defend yourself by any means as long as the are justified." See what I'm saying?

Guns=extreme force=gov't saying it's ok to use them=people more willing to use force

Sorry I feel like I'm not expressing myself in the way I want.

I think the whole "trained professional" bit is less prevalent in the U.S. because of the right to bear arms clause in the constitution (you canucks have something similar in your constitution, no?). This says "hey, you have the right to defend yourself by any means as long as the are justified." See what I'm saying?

Guns=extreme force=gov't saying it's ok to use them=people more willing to use force

Sorry I feel like I'm not expressing myself in the way I want.

Haha. Nope we Canucks have nothing of the sort.


They are cracking down hard on legal gun owners here and dont think for a second that your gonna conceal carry or anything like that.

The situation here is ridiculous. If some guy breaks into your house and starts robbing you, you could easily get in shit if you harm him in any way.

Oops, my mistake.

aLn is misrepresenting Canadian law. You can use reasonable force to protect both yourself and your property. If you knock out an intruder w/ a baseball bat - you will not go to jail. If somebody is taking your dvd player and you shoot them in the head, you might.

Thanks launchpad, I'm just taking both of your words for it as I have no idea what your laws are like.

aLn is misrepresenting Canadian law. You can use reasonable force to protect both yourself and your property. If you knock out an intruder w/ a baseball bat - you will not go to jail. If somebody is taking your dvd player and you shoot them in the head, you might.

Hmm... I wouldn't be surprised to see someone going to jail for striking and knocking an intruder unconscious. The chances for brain damage would be very frowned upon in a Canadian court.

At least that person would be sued.

i personally use violence like alot im in high school someone talks about me or touches me i get into a fight with them ive been in 4 fights this year allready and been suspended most of year not just because fights but one 10 suspencion for cutting computer wires. im gonna go to impact next fight (impacts for all the people that get in fights)

i personally use violence like alot im in high school someone talks about me or touches me i get into a fight with them ive been in 4 fights this year allready and been suspended most of year not just because fights but one 10 suspencion for cutting computer wires. im gonna go to impact next fight (impacts for all the people that get in fights)

Don't you have to be older than 12 to register on here?