then does that mean the universe has always been and always will be?

m

i think eventually, youll get thermal equilibrium and so the universe will become just an empty dead space

damn, thats depressing

i think eventually, youll get thermal equilibrium and so the universe will become just an empty dead space

damn, thats depressing

yea. cold death. and eventually everything will disappear. even protons. then who knows what will happen

Read The City and the Stars- it gives you that same feeling.

yea. cold death. and eventually everything will disappear. even protons. then who knows what will happen
I guess the only solution is to gather everything into one point of infinite density before that happens. :D

yea. cold death. and eventually everything will disappear. even protons. then who knows what will happen

Then BANG!

It would be fitting of a movie plot.

Then BANG!

It would be fitting of a movie plot.

wasnt there a novel about this called "the last question" or something like that

I guess the only solution is to gather everything into one point of infinite density before that happens. :D

I've read that once heat death happens that protons will start popping in and out of existance and that one of those thigns popping in and out could be a new big bang

wasnt there a novel about this called "the last question" or something like that

It was a short story about entropy and the heat death of the universe by Issac Asimov. See:
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

I've read that once heat death happens that protons will start popping in and out of existance and that one of those thigns popping in and out could be a new big bang

That was an article on exit mundi.
http://www.exitmundi.nl/eternity.htm

Wouldnt, eventually, the universe become too big and just collapse/explode, like a balloon?

But if something cant be created, or destroyed, then technically you have one of those things that goes along the lines of "wtf??" How did it come to be in the beginning....

But if something cant be created, or destroyed, then technically you have one of those things that goes along the lines of "wtf??" How did it come to be in the beginning....

That's what I was thinking. Maybe there is something even greater than the universe that we can't even comprehend. Damn I feel so useless right now, my life doesn't mean shit to the universe nothing that's important to me really matters.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe there is something even greater than the universe that we can't even comprehend. Damn I feel so useless right now, my life doesn't mean shit to the universe nothing that's important to me really matters.

Well its all about perception really ^_^

and to wolfy, maybe (this is theory of course) you just have to accept that it has existed and will exist forever. maybe, who knows =D

edit:

and with infinite time(back and fourth), and guessingly infinite space, maybe theres infinite mass, nullifying or de..gating? lol some word.. the thermal equilibrium aka cold death.

maybe.

New Scientist is always fashionably relevant: Did our cosmos exist before the big bang? (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026861.500-did-our-cosmos-exist-before-the-big-bang.html?full=true) And if you want a (reportedly, but not really) accessible overview of loop quantum cosmology, arXiv has you covered: http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.0177 .

Two pieces of food for thought. First- what if there was a big bang before ours, that was still out there on the edges of the universe, but so far and cold we couldn't detect it? Like dark matter.... this would require that energy can be created, but hey- the laws of physics rent set in stone. And even stone crumbles.....

Also, on the universe "popping". Our 3D space is expanding, much as the 2D surface of a baloon expands. But it pops eventually. What if our universe "popped" too, and each pop was a separation of two forces, such as the electroweak force to electromagnetism and weak nuclear force? When our university "stretched" to a certain size, or was only so dense....

Slightly off-topic: Technically we ourselves are remnants of stars and such. The particles that make us up have been around since the beginning of the universe. Cool thought, right?

is this right?:

to accept the fact that energy cant be created or destroyed, is to accept that the universe has no beggining or end.

to believe that the universe does have a biggining and end, would be to deny the "fact" that energy cant be created or destroyed.

and to deny the fact that energy cant be created or destroyed, probably puts LARGE holes in many accepted theories, right?

i do not believe the universe has existed "forever."

really fucking random and off topic... at the occurrence of the big bang is it possible that time would be dilated due to gravity so much that time would never end? Or if you could possibly think of it as a graph maybe size is compressed below one quantum and time actually reverses?

another thing, it's quite strange that even though energy can't be created or destroyed throughout the millions of times before the universe existed and had to have recollapsed we just happen to exist in the first age that the universe will expand forever...

I think energy can be created... like a big bang, and there are previous universes, farther and already cooled and dead, in space

really fucking random and off topic... at the occurrence of the big bang is it possible that time would be dilated due to gravity so much that time would never end? Or if you could possibly think of it as a graph maybe size is compressed below one quantum and time actually reverses?

another thing, it's quite strange that even though energy can't be created or destroyed throughout the millions of times before the universe existed and had to have recollapsed we just happen to exist in the first age that the universe will expand forever...

I think energy can be created... like a big bang, and there are previous universes, farther and already cooled and dead, in space

Remember time dilation is relative, the early universe was homogeneous so the huge densities were spread uniformly causing time to pass at the same rate everywhere.

Maybe, if the universe did indeed begin by the big bang, ALL the energy in our known universe was all compacted into one small tiny spot, maybe the size of a pin-head or whatever. And maybe at "the end", there is indeed a big crunch and all the energy compacts itself back into the small spot again. Or maybe I'm talking out of my ass. :confused:

. Or maybe I'm talking out of my ass. :confused:

nah man,all scientists talk out of their asses quite a bit

Remember time dilation is relative, the early universe was homogeneous so the huge densities were spread uniformly causing time to pass at the same rate everywhere.

yes, but this time would be dilated relative to the time we experience here.

to starjones- i believe that our universe will actually expand into nothing, not recollapse

yes, but this time would be dilated relative to the time we experience here.

to starjones- i believe that our universe will actually expand into nothing, not recollapse

I don't really get what you mean by time being dilated so much that it never ends, but when you say its dilated relative to time we experience now that doesn't mean back then everything happened really slowly. A clock would tick at the same rate.

Look at our world. If you burn a forest, it gets very very hot (thermal energy) but eventually that heat dissipates over the vastness of the planet. The thermal energy isn't gone, it's just negligible when spread over however much area.

Same thing with the universe. The sun may be super duper energy producing, but it's nothing compared to the vast emptiness of space that's ready to devour all that energy. And given that our universe is expanding (or so they think) all this energy is being spread out over more and more area/volume until it is spread so thin the very fabric holding the universe breaks.

That's what I'm saying.

It will be neat once we can hone in our skill with gravitational waves, currently the light cone collapses to a singularity at the "pint " of the big bang, space time and matter were all one, so we cannot see light from before this point. It is theorized however that by examining the gravitational waves caused by this event , we could learn more....

then does that mean the universe has always been and always will be?

m

Refer to the Big Bounce Theory or Rubberband Theory

Apparently there's many universes, and ours might not be the first or the last.

http://www.wimp.com/bigtheory/

is this right?:

to accept the fact that energy cant be created or destroyed, is to accept that the universe has no beggining or end.

to believe that the universe does have a biggining and end, would be to deny the "fact" that energy cant be created or destroyed.

and to deny the fact that energy cant be created or destroyed, probably puts LARGE holes in many accepted theories, right?

i do not believe the universe has existed "forever."

According to science it either has, or will be from now on forever.

There is no "Universe," because there are parallel universes. However, saying Universe in that context is incorrect, because Uni = 1, and because there are multi-universes... Well, you see what I'm trying to say?

Most of the world who has gone through some kind of schooling thinks that everything is made up of atoms. However, this is not true. In fact, the bulk of our... *ahem* Universe (But not really) is made up of Dark Matter. This dark matter is really made up of nothing. I believe, along with many upstanding theoretical physicists, that this "Dark Matter" is actually acting as the shadow, per say, of overlapping universes. This is only a theory, of course, but may be proven in 3 years whenever a new tri satellite system is launched (2011).

While I'm here, I might as well mention black holes. Black holes suck up matter of course. But where does it go? It transfers to other "universes." These black holes supply universes with matter and energy. When a new black hole is formed, it acts as an umbilical chord, giving birth to a new universe.

Of course, this is all theory... For now. But I believe it's true.

While I'm here, I might as well mention black holes. Black holes suck up matter of course. But where does it go? It transfers to other "universes." These black holes supply universes with matter and energy. When a new black hole is formed, it acts as an umbilical chord, giving birth to a new universe.

Of course, this is all theory... For now. But I believe it's true.

So some universes have white holes while other universes have black holes?

I think I saw something like that on the science channel with stephen Hawking.
In the grand scheme of things the black hole universes will be insignificant compared to majesty of the white hole universes.

or something like that.

edit: it's also kinda interesting that black holes turn off from time to time.

i do not believe the universe has existed "forever."

Forever is a very long time. 10 billion years is a very long time. The universe is older then that. So to deny it has existed forever means you, yourself, dont exist, and thus everyone else must also not exist.

And yeh i see what you mean with the black holes, etc thing, but maybe the universe is like a single celled organism. It will continue to grow until it reaches a certain point where it has doubled in volume, then break in half to create a seperate, identical universe. Eventually the matter which we know is created from the dark matter and dark energy, which is like nutrients to the universe(cells). Im sure this goes against all the theories out there, that energy/w.e cant be created, but im just throwing this out there for other's to critique, so to say.

Just watched that video, and it basically stole my idea....grr...owell we mustve been running on the same brainwaves only a few years apart...

There is no "Universe," because there are parallel universes. However, saying Universe in that context is incorrect, because Uni = 1, and because there are multi-universes... Well, you see what I'm trying to say?

Most of the world who has gone through some kind of schooling thinks that everything is made up of atoms. However, this is not true. In fact, the bulk of our... *ahem* Universe (But not really) is made up of Dark Matter. This dark matter is really made up of nothing. I believe, along with many upstanding theoretical physicists, that this "Dark Matter" is actually acting as the shadow, per say, of overlapping universes. This is only a theory, of course, but may be proven in 3 years whenever a new tri satellite system is launched (2011).

While I'm here, I might as well mention black holes. Black holes suck up matter of course. But where does it go? It transfers to other "universes." These black holes supply universes with matter and energy. When a new black hole is formed, it acts as an umbilical chord, giving birth to a new universe.

Of course, this is all theory... For now. But I believe it's true.

That which you said about dark matter sounds extremely interesting. Can you provide links, please?

Forever is a very long time. 10 billion years is a very long time. The universe is older then that. So to deny it has existed forever means you, yourself, dont exist, and thus everyone else must also not exist.

that is exactly what i believe. i think its a lot more probable that all these "physical" things are just a product of my own or collective consciousness. but i am open to other things to.

i know that that belief opens up a whole other set of questions (origin of consciousness) but i think its much more conceivable.

it makes more sense to me anyway...

like, i think its possible that only my mind exists, but i think that other people consciousness exist and that the reason we dont all "make our own universe" is because their is a "universal groove" and the stream of consciousness. this is a picture that illustrates what im saying (kind of):
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l162/jojo_mcpoppins/univbb.jpg