ask a jew [Archive]

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 00:58

To continue on that theme can you explain about the Jewish messiah? Also explain the deal with kosher food.

the jewish messiah means different things to different jews. something i will explain when i get to armsmerchant question. orthodox an conservative jews who follow a literal translation of the torah believe in a actual physical being. who will usher in a utopian age. and all of gods children will be united in peace. this is very similar to a jesus like figure.

to the reform jewish movement, it is felt that a messianic age will be usherd in once completed we have completed tikkum olam or the repairing of the world. reformed jews feel that instead of a physical entity coming to man an ushering in a utopia it will be up to us, all humans to make the world a perfect place. it is felt that by completing mitzvahs or blessings we can make the world that much more near to a perfect age.

Kosher food is a dietary law. it restricts several kinds of food that are deemed unclean for one reason or another.
animals must chew there cud and also have cloven hooves to be considered kosher. predatory birds are not kosher. dairy products can not be served with meat. pots that had meat in them can not have dairy in them an vice versa . fish must have fins an scales. this excludes all shell fish. further all meat must be slaughtered in a specific manner. on passover the rules get a bit more intense.

OP, as you know, there are various Jewish sects. It would be helpful if you would identify yourself as Conservative, Reform, Orthodox, Hassidim, whatever--and explain the differences between them.

*this post has been edited for clarity*Armsmerchant judasim has been around for well over 5000 years. as such there has been a great amount of collected thought. there main bodies are orthodox, conservative, and reform. Hasidim an Ashkenazim refer to ethnic background, rather than religious beliefs. due to time constraints i am not knowledgeable of every school of jewish thought.

Judaism has no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.
The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. Rambam's thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:
1. God exists
2. God is one and unique
3. God is incorporeal
4. God is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to God alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8. The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. God knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. God will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Messiah will come
13. The dead will be resurrected

these are very basic and general principles. Yet as basic as these principles are, the necessity of believing each one of these has been disputed at one time or another, and the liberal movements of Judaism dispute many of these principles.
Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length ( Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.
Judaism focuses on relationships: the relationship between G-d and mankind, between G-d and the Jewish people, and between human beings. Our scriptures tell the story of the development of these relationships, from the time of creation, through the creation of the relationship between G-d and Abraham, to the creation of the relationship between G-d and the Jewish people, and forward. The scriptures also specify the mutual obligations created by these relationships, although various movements of Judaism disagree about the nature of these obligations. Some say they are absolute, unchanging laws from G-d (Orthodox); some say they are laws from G-d that change and evolve over time (Conservative); some say that they are guidelines that you can choose whether or not to follow (Reform, Reconstructionist)

i am a reformed jew

BrokeProphet

2008-12-09, 01:04

What is the jewish question, and was it answered?

Azure

2008-12-09, 01:07

What's with the pointy little hats?

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 01:09

The Romans killed Jesus to appease a mob of angry Jews who accused him of being a heretic and were baying for his blood...

you believe your 2000+ year old interpretation of a story, i will believe mine.

Anyways, why are you guys so successful in Hollywood and America in general?

i think jews are successful because most of us come from stable homes where education is valued. to be jewish is to have a passion to study, learn, discuss, an read. also we still suffer from the immigrant syndrome of working hard.

as far as holly wood success goes, i think some jews succeed there because we have a great sense of humor as a people.

an i would be hard pressed to find sources for what i am saying. i am not that good of a jew.

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 01:18

What is the jewish question, and was it answered?

the jewish question meant different things to different people. many agree that is pertains to the negative attitude toward the apparent and persistent singularity of the Jews as a people on the background of the rising political nationalisms and new nation-states in europe. zionism came from the jewish question. apparently the question was answered when israel was founded an reform judaism came about.

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 01:20

What's with the pointy little hats?

it is to recognize that god is above everyone/thing. also it is a mitzvot to wear one when praying. committing mitzvot move us closer to a perfect age.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-09, 01:28

the jewish question meant different things to different people. many agree that is pertains to the negative attitude toward the apparent and persistent singularity of the Jews as a people on the background of the rising political nationalisms and new nation-states in europe. zionism came from the jewish question. apparently the question was answered when israel was founded an reform judaism came about.

I thought the Jewish question was the refusal of Jews to intergrate fully with cultures they lived in, leading to a close knit community of Jews helping each other become wealthy, which is evidenced in the disproportionate wealth ratio of the Jewish people.

The answer to that was to take over and commit human rights violations against another people occupying the magic land you all wanted?

A rather shitty answer, to a complex question.

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 01:37

I thought the Jewish question was the refusal of Jews to intergrate fully with cultures they lived in, leading to a close knit community of Jews

i thought that was baislcly what i said. my bad, next time i will try an be more clear.

helping each other become wealthy, which is evidenced in the disproportionate wealth ratio of the Jewish people.

this is paranoia

The answer to that was to take over and commit human rights violations against another people occupying the magic land you all wanted?

lots of shit went down in that deal an many sides were fucked an fucked each other. i will not excuse the israeli state, their actions are deplorable, an many jews feel this way. but it was not just the jews who played the hand poorly. the british an french royally fucked up the region during the mandate time period. also the other arab nations of the time played the palestinians in a attempt to get money for themselves from the USA or USSR

A rather shitty answer, to a complex question. i could say the same to your response.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-09, 02:25

i will not excuse the israeli state, their actions are deplorable, an many jews feel this way. but it was not just the jews who played the hand poorly.

Perhaps, some jungle could have been clear-cut for you guys in South America, and all of that bloodshed need not have happened and continue to this day.

You could all be farming fruit, sugar, coffee and chocolate and not have a man with bomb blow your granny to bits in a crowded bus.

Shit, thats right, the sons of Abraham never went to South America, it wasn't holy enough.

---------

What I find deplorable is that the Jewish people had to have the holy land, at any cost. A cost that is being paid to this day, by Israeli and American alike.

Those actions are just Old testament style responses to fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy. How many times have Jews killed whomever, be it man, woman, or child, in the name of that patch of Earth?

killallthewhiteman

2008-12-09, 07:13

On the kosher food.

Do Jews believe that these laws are derived from a spiritual transcendental context? (the word/will of God)

It seems to me these laws/rules are derived from material nature rather than the spiritual nature; of course a few millenniums ago at a time very different to this age it would have been practical. But in kali- yuga when there is a vast amount of technology and increasing technology we understand it is understood that the costs to human health for animals who "dont chew the cud" or have "cloven hooves" can be reduces and removed through an understanding of hygiene.

Or are the laws not derived from negative health costs?

please clear this up

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 13:28

Perhaps, some jungle could have been clear-cut for you guys in South America, and all of that bloodshed need not have happened and continue to this day.

You could all be farming fruit, sugar, coffee and chocolate and not have a man with bomb blow your granny to bits in a crowded bus.

for a while there were plans of having the jews live in what is now either aregentina or kenya. the kenyan deal was very close to happening. but the british decided to play the jews an the arabs off of each other in order to hurt the ottoman empire.(kenya an palestine were both british held territories) most of the european jews moving into palestian did not realize they were pawns. as for the arabs living there, they were shafted not only by the new jewish settlers but also by their own leaders, other arab states, the ottomans, an the west. again my heart an prays, as do many other jews hearts an prays go out to those people.

broke prophet i know you are a troll an there is nothing i am going to say that will satisfy you

---------

What I find deplorable is that the Jewish people had to have the holy land, at any cost. A cost that is being paid to this day, by Israeli and American alike.

up untill the 1940's many jews did not want to go to palestine. they wanted some other more fertile land. judasim, as a religion had taken a new turn, an was no longer as focused on returning to a physical jersualem, to many zion had become a state of mind, not a actual place. it was only when the brits an french promised the land that jews began to flock to it once again. once the jews arrived, an found out that the brits had lied to them, they fought back. you would have as well. again this is not an excuse, it is how history played out.

Those actions are just Old testament style responses to fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy. How many times have Jews killed whomever, be it man, woman, or child, in the name of that patch of Earth?

before 1945, not for over 2000 years. but i agree many actions carried out by the jewish state are deplorable. i think the actions are based on realist political theory and a desire to keep the land bought/fought/promised them. not so much on old testemant style responses to fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy.

again none of my answers are going to be the ones you want to hear, you make the common mistake of identifying the jewish state an the jewish people as one an the same. when in truth we could not be more separate. so maybe you should just stop reading this thread, m'kay.

On the kosher food.

Do Jews believe that these laws are derived from a spiritual transcendental context? (the word/will of God)

It seems to me these laws/rules are derived from material nature rather than the spiritual nature; of course a few millenniums ago at a time very different to this age it would have been practical. But in kali- yuga when there is a vast amount of technology and increasing technology we understand it is understood that the costs to human health for animals who "dont chew the cud" or have "cloven hooves" can be reduces and removed through an understanding of hygiene.

Or are the laws not derived from negative health costs?

please clear this up

kosher is a very complex aspect of judaism. i did not do it justice in a earlier post, because it is would require me to write out a few pages to fully explain it, and i dont have the time to do that. an i doubted any of you want to read it. but here i go on a bit more detailed look at whay kosher means.

Kashrut is the body of Jewish law dealing with what foods we can and cannot eat and how those foods must be prepared and eaten. "Kashrut" comes from the Hebrew root Kaf-Shin-Reish, meaning fit, proper or correct. It is the same root as the more commonly known word "kosher," which describes food that meets these standards. The word "kosher" can also be used, and often is used, to describe ritual objects that are made in accordance with Jewish law and are fit for ritual use.

Contrary to popular misconception, rabbis or other religious officials do not "bless" food to make it kosher. There are blessings that observant Jews recite over food before eating it, but these blessings have nothing to do with making the food kosher. Food can be kosher without a rabbi or priest ever becoming involved with it: the vegetables from your garden are undoubtedly kosher (as long as they don't have any bugs, which are not kosher!). However, in our modern world of processed foods, it is difficult to know what ingredients are in your food and how they were processed, so it is helpful to have a rabbi examine the food and its processing and assure kosher consumers that the food is kosher. This certification process is discussed below.

There is no such thing as "kosher-style" food. Kosher is not a style of cooking. Chinese food can be kosher if it is prepared in accordance with Jewish law, and there are many fine kosher Chinese restaurants in Philadelphia and New York. Traditional Ashkenazic Jewish foods like knishes, bagels, blintzes, and matzah ball soup can all be non-kosher if not prepared in accordance with Jewish law. When a restaurant calls itself "kosher-style," it usually means that the restaurant serves these traditional Jewish foods, and it almost invariably means that the food is not actually kosher.

Food that is not kosher is commonly referred to as treif (lit. torn, from the commandment not to eat animals that have been torn by other animals).
Why Do We Observe the Laws of Kashrut?

Many modern Jews think that the laws of kashrut are simply primitive health regulations that have become obsolete with modern methods of food preparation. There is no question that some of the dietary laws have some beneficial health effects. For example, the laws regarding kosher slaughter are so sanitary that kosher butchers and slaughterhouses have been exempted from many USDA regulations.

However, health is not the only reason for Jewish dietary laws. Many of the laws of kashrut have no known connection with health. To the best of our modern scientific knowledge, there is no reason why camel or rabbit meat (both treif) is any less healthy than cow or goat meat. In addition, some of the health benefits to be derived from kashrut were not made obsolete by the refrigerator. For example, there is some evidence that eating meat and dairy together interferes with digestion, and no modern food preparation technique reproduces the health benefit of the kosher law of eating them separately.

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 13:29

in recent years, several secular sources that have seriously looked into this matter have acknowledged that health does not explain these prohibitions. Some have suggested that the prohibitions are instead derived from environmental considerations. For example, a camel (which is not kosher) is more useful as a beast of burden than as a source of food. In the Middle Eastern climate, the pig consumes a quantity of food that is disproportional to its value as a food source. But again, these are not reasons that come from Jewish tradition.

The short answer to why Jews observe these laws is: because the Torah says so. The Torah does not specify any reason for these laws, and for a Torah-observant, traditional Jew, there is no need for any other reason. Some have suggested that the laws of kashrut fall into the category of "chukkim," laws for which there is no reason. We show our obedience to G-d by following these laws even though we do not know the reason. Others, however, have tried to ascertain G-d's reason for imposing these laws.

Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin suggests that the dietary laws are designed as a call to holiness. The ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, pure and defiled, the sacred and the profane, is very important in Judaism. Imposing rules on what you can and cannot eat ingrains that kind of self control, requiring us to learn to control even our most basic, primal instincts.

Donin also points out that the laws of kashrut elevate the simple act of eating into a religious ritual. The Jewish dinner table is often compared to the Temple altar in rabbinic literature. A Jew who observes the laws of kashrut cannot eat a meal without being reminded of the fact that he is a Jew.

People who do not keep kosher often tell me how difficult it is. Actually, keeping kosher is not particularly difficult in and of itself; what makes it difficult to keep kosher is the fact that the rest of the world does not do so.

Keeping kosher only becomes difficult when you try to eat in a non-kosher restaurant, or at the home of a person who does not keep kosher. In those situations, your lack of knowledge about your host's ingredients and food preparation techniques make it very difficult to keep kosher. Some commentators have pointed out, however, that this may well have been part of what G-d had in mind: to make it more difficult for us to socialize with those who do not share our religion.(i think this is bunk)

Although the details of kashrut are extensive, the laws all derive from a few fairly simple, straightforward rules:

1. Certain animals may not be eaten at all. This restriction includes the flesh, organs, eggs and milk of the forbidden animals.
2. Of the animals that may be eaten, the birds and mammals must be killed in accordance with Jewish law.
3. All blood must be drained from the meat or broiled out of it before it is eaten.
4. Certain parts of permitted animals may not be eaten.
5. Fruits and vegetables are permitted, but must be inspected for bugs
6. Meat (the flesh of birds and mammals) cannot be eaten with dairy. Fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables and grains can be eaten with either meat or dairy. (According to some views, fish may not be eaten with meat).
7. Utensils that have come into contact with meat may not be used with dairy, and vice versa. Utensils that have come into contact with non-kosher food may not be used with kosher food. This applies only where the contact occurred while the food was hot.
8. Grape products made by non-Jews may not be eaten.
9. There are a few other rules that are not universal.

Of the "beasts of the earth" (which basically refers to land mammals with the exception of swarming rodents), you may eat any animal that has cloven hooves and chews its cud. Lev. 11:3; Deut. 14:6. Any land mammal that does not have both of these qualities is forbidden. The Torah specifies that the camel, the rock badger, the hare and the pig are not kosher because each lacks one of these two qualifications. Sheep, cattle, goats, deer and bison are kosher.

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 13:30

Of the things that are in the waters, you may eat anything that has fins and scales. Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9. Thus, shellfish such as lobsters, oysters, shrimp, clams and crabs are all forbidden. Fish like tuna, carp, salmon and herring are all permitted.

For birds, the criteria is less clear. The Torah provides a list of forbidden birds (Lev. 11:13-19; Deut. 14:11-18), but does not specify why these particular birds are forbidden. All of the birds on the list are birds of prey or scavengers, thus the rabbis inferred that this was the basis for the distinction. Other birds are permitted, such as chicken, geese, ducks and turkeys. However, some people avoid turkey, because it is not mentioned in the Torah, leaving room for doubt.

Of the "winged swarming things" (winged insects), a few are specifically permitted (Lev. 11:22), but the Sages are no longer certain which ones they are, so all have been forbidden. There are communities that have a tradition about what species are permitted, and in those communities some insects are eaten.

Rodents, reptiles, amphibians, and insects (except as mentioned above) are all forbidden. Lev. 11:29-30, 42-43.

Some authorities require a post-mortem examination of the lungs of cattle, to determine whether the lungs are free from adhesions. If the lungs are free from such adhesions, the animal is deemed "glatt" (that is, "smooth"). In certain circumstances, an animal can be kosher without being glatt; however, the stringency of keeping "glatt kosher" has become increasingly common in recent years, and you would be hard-pressed to find any kosher meat that is not labeled as "glatt kosher."

As mentioned above, any product derived from these forbidden animals, such as their milk, eggs, fat, or organs, also cannot be eaten. Rennet, an enzyme used to harden cheese, is often obtained from non-kosher animals, thus kosher hard cheese can be difficult to find.
Kosher slaughtering

The mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish law. (Deut. 12:21). We may not eat animals that died of natural causes (Deut. 14:21) or that were killed by other animals. In addition, the animal must have no disease or flaws in the organs at the time of slaughter. These restrictions do not apply to fish; only to the flocks and herds (Num. 11:22).

Ritual slaughter is known as shechitah, and the person who performs the slaughter is called a shochet, both from the Hebrew root Shin-Cheit-Tav, meaning to destroy or kill. The method of slaughter is a quick, deep stroke across the throat with a perfectly sharp blade with no nicks or unevenness. This method is painless, causes unconsciousness within two seconds, and is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter possible.

Another advantage of shechitah is that it ensures rapid, complete draining of the blood, which is also necessary to render the meat kosher.

The shochet is not simply a butcher; he must be a pious man, well-trained in Jewish law, particularly as it relates to kashrut. In smaller, more remote communities, the rabbi and the shochet were often the same person.
Draining of Blood

The Torah prohibits consumption of blood. Lev. 7:26-27; Lev. 17:10-14. This is the only dietary law that has a reason specified in Torah: we do not eat blood because the life of the animal (literally, the soul of the animal) is contained in the blood. This applies only to the blood of birds and mammals, not to fish blood. Thus, it is necessary to remove all blood from the flesh of kosher animals.

The first step in this process occurs at the time of slaughter. As discussed above, shechitah allows for rapid draining of most of the blood.

The remaining blood must be removed, either by broiling or soaking and salting. Liver may only be kashered by the broiling method, because it has so much blood in it and such complex blood vessels. This final process must be completed within 72 hours after slaughter, and before the meat is frozen or ground. Most butchers and all frozen food vendors take care of the soaking and salting for you, but you should always check this when you are buying someplace you are unfamiliar with.

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 13:30

An egg that contains a blood spot may not be eaten. This isn't very common, but I find them once in a while. It is a good idea to break an egg into a glass and check it before you put it into a heated pan, because if you put a blood-stained egg into a heated pan, the pan becomes non-kosher.
Forbidden Fats and Nerves

The sciatic nerve and its adjoining blood vessels may not be eaten. The process of removing this nerve is time consuming and not cost-effective, so most American slaughterers simply sell the hind quarters to non-kosher butchers.

A certain kind of fat, known as chelev, which surrounds the vital organs and the liver, may not be eaten. Kosher butchers remove this. Modern scientists have found biochemical differences between this type of fat and the permissible fat around the muscles and under the skin.
Fruits and Vegetables

All fruits and vegetables are kosher (but see the note regarding Grape Products below). However, bugs and worms that may be found in some fruits and vegetables are not kosher. Fruits and vegetables that are prone to this sort of thing should be inspected to ensure that they contain no bugs. Leafy vegetables like lettuce and herbs and flowery vegetables like broccoli and cauliflower are particularly prone to bugs and should be inspected carefully. Strawberries and raspberries can also be problematic. The Star-K kosher certification organization has a very nice overview of the fruits and vegetables prone to this and the procedure for addressing it in each type.
Separation of Meat and Dairy

On three separate occasions, the Torah tells us not to "boil a kid in its mother's milk." (Ex. 23:19; Ex. 34:26; Deut. 14:21). The Oral Torah explains that this passage prohibits eating meat and dairy together. The rabbis extended this prohibition to include not eating milk and poultry together. In addition, the Talmud prohibits cooking meat and fish together or serving them on the same plates, because it is considered to be unhealthy. It is, however, permissible to eat fish and dairy together, and it is quite common (lox and cream cheese, for example). It is also permissible to eat dairy and eggs together.

This separation includes not only the foods themselves, but the utensils, pots and pans with which they are cooked, the plates and flatware from which they are eaten, the dishwashers or dishpans in which they are cleaned, and the towels on which they are dried. A kosher household will have at least two sets of pots, pans and dishes: one for meat and one for dairy. See Utensils below for more details.

One must wait a significant amount of time between eating meat and dairy. Opinions differ, and vary from three to six hours. This is because fatty residues and meat particles tend to cling to the mouth. From dairy to meat, however, one need only rinse one's mouth and eat a neutral solid like bread, unless the dairy product in question is also of a type that tends to stick in the mouth.

The Yiddish words fleishik (meat), milchik (dairy) and pareve (neutral) are commonly used to describe food or utensils that fall into one of those categories.

Note that even the smallest quantity of dairy (or meat) in something renders it entirely dairy (or meat) for purposes of kashrut. For example, most margarines are dairy for kosher purposes, because they contain a small quantity of whey or other dairy products to give it a buttery taste. Animal fat is considered meat for purposes of kashrut. You should read the ingredients very carefully, even if the product is kosher-certified.
Utensils

Utensils (pots, pans, plates, flatware, etc., etc.) must also be kosher. A utensil picks up the kosher "status" (meat, dairy, pareve, or treif) of the food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it, and transmits that status back to the next food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it. Thus, if you cook chicken soup in a saucepan, the pan becomes meat. If you thereafter use the same saucepan to heat up some warm milk, the fleishik status of the pan is transmitted to the milk, and the milchik status of the milk is transmitted to the pan, making both the pan and the milk a forbidden mixture.

Kosher status can be transmitted from the food to the utensil or from the utensil to the food only in the presence of heat, thus if you are eating cold food in a non-kosher establishment, the condition of the plates is not an issue. Likewise, you could use the same knife to slice cold cuts and cheese, as long as you clean it in between, but this is not really a recommended procedure, because it increases the likelihood of mistakes.

Stove tops and sinks routinely become non-kosher utensils, because they routinely come in contact with both meat and dairy in the presence of heat. It is necessary, therefore, to use dishpans when cleaning dishes (don't soak them directly in the sink) and to use separate spoon rests and trivets when putting things down on the stove top.

Dishwashers are a kashrut problem. If you are going to use a dishwasher for both meat and dairy in a kosher home, you either need to have separate dish racks or you need to run the dishwasher in between meat and dairy loads.

You should use separate towels and pot holders for meat and dairy. Routine laundering kashers such items, so you can simply launder them between using them for meat and dairy.

Certain kinds of utensils can be "kashered" if you make a mistake and use it with both meat and dairy. Consult a rabbi for guidance if this situation occurs.
Grape Products

The restrictions on grape products derive from the laws against using products of idolatry. Wine was commonly used in the rituals of all ancient religions, and wine was routinely sanctified for pagan purposes while it was being processed. For this reason, use of wines and other grape products made by non-Jews was prohibited. (Whole grapes are not a problem, nor are whole grapes in fruit cocktail).

For the most part, this rule only affects wine and grape juice. This becomes a concern with many fruit drinks or fruit-flavored drinks, which are often sweetened with grape juice. You may also notice that some baking powders are not kosher, because baking powder is sometimes made with cream of tartar, a by-product of wine making. All beer used to be kosher, but this is no longer the case because fruity beers made with grape products have become more common.

There are a few additional considerations that come up, that you may hear discussed in more sophisticated discussions of kashrut.

Bishul Yisroel
In certain circumstances, a Jew (that is, someone who is required to keep kosher) must be involved in the preparation of food for it to be kosher. This rule is discussed in depth under Food Fit for a King on the Star-K kosher certification website.
Cholov Yisroel
An ancient rule required that a Jew must be present from the time of milking to the time of bottling to ensure that milk from kosher animals did not become mixed with milk from non-kosher animals. Milk that is observed in this way is referred to as Cholov Yisroel, and some people will consume only Cholov Yisroel. However, in the United States, federal law relating to the production of milk is so strict that many Orthodox sources accept any milk as kosher. You will sometimes see high-level discussions of kashrut address whether a product is Cholov Yisroel or non-Cholov Yisroel. See a more complete discussion under Cholov Yisroel: Does a Neshama Good on the Star-K kosher certification website.
Mevushal
Most kosher wines in America are made using a process of pasteurization called mevushal, which addresses some of the kashrut issues related to grape beverages. See The Art of Kosher Wine Making on the Star-K kosher certification website.

About 25% to 30% of Jews in America keep kosher to one extent or another. This includes the vast majority of people who identify themselves as Orthodox, as well as many Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews and some Reform Jews.

However, the standards that are observed vary substantially from one person to another. According to the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), only about 17% of Jewish families eat kosher meat all the time. (see Table 28 in the survey, if you can find it -- I can no longer locate it online). Others keep kosher more strictly some times than others.

The strictest people will eat only foods that have reliable Orthodox kosher certification, eating only glatt-kosher certified meats and specially certified dairy products. They will not eat cooked food in a restaurant unless the restaurant has reliable Orthodox certification, and they are unlikely to accept an invitation to dinner from anyone who is not known to share their high standards.

Others are more lenient. Some will "ingredients read," accepting grocery store items that do not contain any identifiably non-kosher ingredients. Some will eat cooked food in a restaurant or a non-kosher home, as long as the meal is either vegetarian or uses only kosher meat and no dairy products. Some will eat non-kosher meat in restaurants, but only if the meat comes from a kosher animal and is not served with dairy products. Many of these more lenient people keep stricter standards in their homes than they do in restaurants or in other people's homes.

As rabbi Moline noted, "Everyone who keeps kosher will tell you that his version is the only correct version. Everyone else is either a fanatic or a heretic." . There is a lot of truth in this humorous observation.

hopefuly this was not too long an you all managed to get through it. if you want me to explain anything else i touched on in a similar manner(such as the different forms of judasim) i will be happy to do so.

hollywood undead 420

2008-12-09, 16:24

^fuck those gay ass rules :(

sorry but that makes me not like jews that much now

EDIT: you are jew?

woah

lostmyface

2008-12-09, 16:53

^fuck those gay ass rules :(

sorry but that makes me not like jews that much now

EDIT: you are jew?

woah

i am not a fan of the rules myself, an i only keep kosher when i am in a kosher house. other than that, bring on the double bacon cheese burgers.

if those rules alone make you not like a religion, well i feel sorry for your close mindedness.

yes, i am a jew, just not a practicing jew. ie i dont go to synagogue or keep kosher or observe any of the holidays.

woah is right

killallthewhiteman

2008-12-09, 20:08

fuck man thats heaps.

Dont pay attention to holy wood, it takes commitment to be kosher huh. Its admirable that jews pay such close attention to their diet, even if it lacks an ontological basis they are still paying more attention to the secular atheist who has no clear defined rules on diet, in other words because Jews are conscious of their diet they are using discrimination which is the most fundamental aspect to human consciousness; whilst the westerners go about with there diet indiscriminately without any ontological basis other than the material sense of taste. Its funny that people like Hollywood are critical of kosher diet when they pay no attention to their diet (at least he did not argue this, which he should of since he disagreed with you).

Thank you for explaining the reality of kosher but i would like to know about the ontology of the kosher diet.

So obviously its Judaic law, is this because keeping a kosher diet will strengthen the relationship with God? If so what is so spiritual about discriminating between these animals and animal products.

One of the ten commandments is though shalt not kill; so why are you killing animals?

Is killing an animal something different to "killing" as it is defined in your scripture?

God created all living entities with a soul; this is not the scientific definition of "living"; what gives Jews the right to kill another soul? Surely that should be left to God?

That is my reality; the ontology is that God created all things; i think that is something that Jews understand. Our true nature is that we are not this material body but an eternal spirit soul. Killing an animal is in the mode of ignorance to the mode of satva (spiritual understanding /knowledge), which is the most favorable mode.(note: i am not a vegetarian but im working on it).

How is it that killing animals and going against your commandment is in the mode of satva; or bringing you closer to God?

Do share the jewish understanding

BrokeProphet

2008-12-10, 12:06

up untill the 1940's many jews did not want to go to palestine. they wanted some other more fertile land. judasim, as a religion had taken a new turn, an was no longer as focused on returning to a physical jersualem, to many zion had become a state of mind, not a actual place.

So you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land?

What's more is that they accidently wound up there, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon?

This is what you are telling me?

-------

You don't see why someone would find what you are suggesting a little hard to believe? So much that you call me a troll and tell me to stop reading your thread?

Okay, I guess it is just a way fucking out there kind of insinuation, and any rational person would quickly come to a different conclusion.

You do seem to understand that the state of Israel was a mistake though.

Chuck N0rris

2008-12-10, 12:08

Why did your murder Jesus?

THIS.:mad:

lostmyface

2008-12-10, 15:55

So you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land?

by the 18th century the jewish religion had taken a massive idealogical turn. an while almost all jews at that time felt they were a chosen people, many no longer viewed israel as a holy land. it had become an idea, not a place. the prophecy had also been reinterpreted. where before it was all about wondering lost in the diaspora until god deemed us ready for a return, now it was about fixing the world around us into a better place, a place worthy of god. a return to israel did not factor in these plans at all.

What's more is that they accidently wound up there, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon?

not accident, but by chance of historical events. if not for world war one i doubt an israeli state would be here today. i doubt the fanatical jews you see in israel today would be around either if not for the west. it was a need to destabilize the region that led the brits an french to start exporting jews to the middle east. those early settlers were pawns just like the original arab owners of the land. as far as wishes an prophecies go i think i have explained in several other post the reinterpretation of the jewish religion an philosophy over the past four centuries. but i doubt you really read any of my post cause you keep posting the same questions. hence why i called you a troll.

This is what you are telling me?

basically, yes.

You don't see why someone would find what you are suggesting a little hard to believe? So much that you call me a troll and tell me to stop reading your thread?

some one who did not understand that there was a difference between the jews of 3000 years ago an the jews of today. they would definetly have trouble grasping onto what i am saying. also some one who has little to no background in middle eastern history over the past 200 years. they might also have trouble getting what i am saying. but some one as knowlegebal as you? no i am sure you hear me just fine.

i called you a troll because you keep asking the same questions that i feel i have answered in other post.

Okay, I guess it is just a way fucking out there kind of insinuation, and any rational person would quickly come to a different conclusion.

fucking out there kind of insinuation, what does that even mean? if you think i am trying to silence you an your brilliance by calling you a troll, you could not be more wrong. i am open to discussion. but if you try an intellectually attack a people of who you know little about, well i might seem a bit rude when i answer you. but i will answer you. troll.

You do seem to understand that the state of Israel was a mistake though.

i think we can agree on this.

lostmyface

2008-12-10, 15:55

THIS.:mad:

fuck off acolyte, let the men talk.

lostmyface

2008-12-10, 16:12

because Jews are conscious of their diet they are using discrimination which is the most fundamental aspect to human consciousness;

i think this is the answer to your question below

So obviously its Judaic law, is this because keeping a kosher diet will strengthen the relationship with God? If so what is so spiritual about discriminating between these animals and animal products.

there is nothing out right spiritual about the animals, as you said above it is more about active discrimination.

One of the ten commandments is though shalt not kill; so why are you killing animals?

Is killing an animal something different to "killing" as it is defined in your scripture?

God created all living entities with a soul; this is not the scientific definition of "living"; what gives Jews the right to kill another soul? Surely that should be left to God?

That is my reality; the ontology is that God created all things; i think that is something that Jews understand. Our true nature is that we are not this material body but an eternal spirit soul. Killing an animal is in the mode of ignorance to the mode of satva (spiritual understanding /knowledge), which is the most favorable mode.(note: i am not a vegetarian but im working on it).

How is it that killing animals and going against your commandment is in the mode of satva; or bringing you closer to God?

Do share the jewish understanding

this is a very interesting chain of thought you just laid out. i will try an explain the jewish view to the best of my abilities, but please be aware that judaism is open to lots of personal interpretations. and what i say, is just one of many views.

killing a man, is indeed different than killing an animal in judaism. according to jewish faith god did give life to all creatures, but did not give souls to all creatures.

we are still prohibited from causeing undue suffering to any animal. animal cruelty is strictly forbidden in the torah an the talmud. this is because we recognize these creatures as gods. and just like our own bodies, we are only borrowing them.

the jews do believe that god created everyone an everything, so in reality everything is god. right down to the cow in my burger. but jews feel it is ok to kill these animals an eat them because one, they dont have souls an two god put them here for us.

the killing can bring us closer to god by observing gods commandments an practicing kashrut among other things. as you noted early, it is the discrimination between one thing and another that helps bring us closer to god. i will qoute from an earlier post

"Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin suggests that the dietary laws are designed as a call to holiness. The ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, pure and defiled, the sacred and the profane, is very important in Judaism. Imposing rules on what you can and cannot eat ingrains that kind of self control, requiring us to learn to control even our most basic, primal instincts.
Donin also points out that the laws of kashrut elevate the simple act of eating into a religious ritual. The Jewish dinner table is often compared to the Temple altar in rabbinic literature. A Jew who observes the laws of kashrut cannot eat a meal without being reminded of the fact that he is a Jew."

hope that helps some.

killallthewhiteman

2008-12-11, 08:03

the jews do believe that god created everyone an everything, so in reality everything is god. right down to the cow in my burger. but jews feel it is ok to kill these animals an eat them because one, they dont have souls an two god put them here for us.

Any living entity is created by God has a soul; because god is a soul. If an entity does not have its soul it is not living.
Of course there are differences between human animals and non-human animals; but in the spiritual sense it is that humans can be spiritually realized but animals cannot; spiritual realization comes through consciousness. But really most people do not realize this and are not even actively engaged in this just like the animals, so if you use the justification that animals are different to humans then you must not apply a double standard that is - many humans are in the mode of ignorance and passion just like animals. If you can justify killing animals for this reason, then you can justify killing people for this reason.

The soul is simply desire, obviously there are different desires with different qualities.

What im saying is that most human types and quality of desire is synonymous with non-human animals.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-11, 21:27

Basically yes.

SO....

To be clear, you assert, a group of people, most of whom practice a religion in which an all powerful being deems them the chosen, a certain patch of Earth as holy, and promises to get them there in divine prophecy, did not want to go to this holy land, and that they wound up there, purely by historical chance, despite their desire to go against the wishes of their God, and the prophecy of their cannon.
---------------------
Well that just seems fucking silly, doesn't it?

It seems down right retarded considering you assert this without evidence to back it up, as is shown below...

by the 18th century the jewish religion had taken a massive idealogical turn. an while almost all jews at that time felt they were a chosen people, many no longer viewed israel as a holy land. it had become an idea, not a place. the prophecy had also been reinterpreted. where before it was all about wondering lost in the diaspora until god deemed us ready for a return, now it was about fixing the world around us into a better place, a place worthy of god. a return to israel did not factor in these plans at all..

The following seems to suggest the exact opposite of what you are asserting, and backs my assertion, as do all other articles I have read on the stated goals of Zionism....

Although the Zionist movement was created by Theodor Herzl in 1897, the history of Zionism can be seen as beginning earlier and related to the Jewish religion and history. Before the Holocaust the movement's central focus was the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a Jewish state, attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel. After the creation of Israel, the Zionist movement acted to support Israel, assist persecuted Jews and worked to encourage Jewish emigration to Israel. The percentage of the world's Jews who live in Israel has steadily grown over the years and today 40% of the world's Jews live in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

Feel free back up your assertion with SOMETHING a bit more substantial than your word alone, at anytime, or feel free to change the title of the thread to.....

"Ask a Jew, and accept his unsubstantiated answers as fact, else the aforementioned Jew will engage you in ad hominem"

but if you try an intellectually attack a people of who you know little about, well i might seem a bit rude when i answer you. but i will answer you. troll.

I know that Judaism has been a very important part of Jewish culture and has influenced Jews a great deal for the past 3000 years or so. I know that in this religion God deems them the chosen ones, and it is declared that a particular patch of Earth is the Holy Land, and this God promises to return them to this birthright.

I know that the stated goals of Zionism has been to return to this Holy Land, and that low and behold, they return to it. I know, and so do you, that creating this state was a major mistake.

What I don't know is how someone can feel the Jews just happened to wind up there, through no fault of their own?

But you do feel that way, and are free to do so, even in the face of the evidence that seems to indicate otherwise (stated and realized goals of zionists and the stated goals of the Jewish faith).

You simply suggesting that the place in which some of the most important biblical events occured, is not important to the Jewish faithful, does not make it so. So call me a troll for asking questions you continue to bullshit around with, and I will call you a cunt for bullshitting around with them. cunt.

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-12, 00:21

I would advise you just ignore "BrokeProphet", lostmyface. His name is very descriptive of what he is. He really is not worth your time or your effort.

The fact is, Christians and Jews alike both believe that Israel is the land of the Hebrews. That means a high majority of theists all can agree that Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

Israel was 100% legally attained and all land that was previously owned by muslims was bought. When you buy something from someone, pay for it, you have made a contract. You can't just turn back on your contract. This is precisely what the terrorists are doing. They agreed to give up their land, and now they are whining trying to get what rightfully belongs to the nation of Israel.

Israel is a thriving country amid a region marked by poverty. You really think there would have been a better country if we just left it how it was before?

Israel is also a major U.S ally. Israel is probably the only country in the Mid-East region that U.S can really trust. That makes it a major player and an asset.

No,no,NO! Do not give me that hogwash about Israel being a "mistake". I am disappointed in the Op's weakness of actually siding with that anti-semite. If you are a Jew or a Christian, you understand that Israel was given by G-D to the Jews who are the chosen people. I understand that atheists have different views, but you have to understand that your unwillingness to accept G-d makes having any kind of intelligent debate very difficult.

peace to all nations,
Ronshim.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-12, 01:43

I would advise you just ignore "BrokeProphet", lostmyface. His name is very descriptive of what he is. He really is not worth your time or your effort..

I would advise you to ignore Mr. Smythberg here, his name is very descriptive of what he is.

I don't really feel that way, and would not suggest someone ignore your valid points based on your Jewish name. I am just not a cunt like that.

The fact is, Christians and Jews alike both believe that Israel is the land of the Hebrews. That means a high majority of theists all can agree that Israel belongs to the Jewish people...

That was a valid point I was making........should he ignore it only when I say it, again based on my name?

Israel was 100% legally attained and all land that was previously owned by muslims was bought..

History, allow me to introduce you to Ron.

Ron this is history....

During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour issued what became known as the Balfour Declaration, which "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." The Jewish Legion, a group of battalions composed primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine.

In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".

After WWII.....

The British had notified the U.N. of their intent to terminate the mandate not later than 1 August 1948, but Jewish Leadership led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared independence on 14 May. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries, but not by the surrounding Arab states. Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded Israel.

With violence, bloodshed and war until the present.

The preceding information was found at... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_the_British_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

NOW, I looked on there and did not see anywhere, a pricetag the Jews paid the Palestinians.

See if you can.

Israel is a thriving country amid a region marked by poverty. You really think there would have been a better country if we just left it how it was before?

No it would not have been, but it would have turned into a thriving country were the U.S. to give them what we gave Israel....

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population.
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

What did you think made Israel a thriving nation amid such poverty?

God?

Israel is also a major U.S ally. Israel is probably the only country in the Mid-East region that U.S can really trust. That makes it a major player and an asset..

They better be a major ally as much money and support as we have given them. Again, could have made any country a major ally if we kissed it's ass like we have Israel.

No,no,NO! Do not give me that hogwash about Israel being a "mistake". I am disappointed in the Op's weakness of actually siding with that anti-semite.

How was Israel not a mistake?

The formation of the state of Israel has spilled blood for nearly half a century, b/c of it's location. It's existence is not and has never been the problem, it is it's location, which happens to be on top of impoverished conquered Arabs.

Wouldn't it have been better to clear cut some Brazilian jungle, nobody was using, and spend what we have paid Israel for the past 50 years buying it from Brazil and setting up infrastructure?

How is Israel in Palestine, and the bloodshed it has brought, better than that?

-----------

If you are a Jew or a Christian, you understand that Israel was given by G-D to the Jews who are the chosen people. I understand that atheists have different views, but you have to understand that your unwillingness to accept G-d makes having any kind of intelligent debate very difficult.

Simple ad hominem.

Me being atheist has NOTHING to do with my ability to intelligently argue that the creation of Israel was a mistake, nor does it invalidate any point I have made thus far.

You foolishly suggest that if I agreed with you, we could have an intelligent debate.

-------

Rather than listen to what I have to say it is easier to plug your fingers in your ear and tell yourself that I must be an anti-semite b/c I am critical of the decision to create the state of Israel in it's current location.

Way to fail.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-14, 03:06

Are we done asking jews?

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-14, 04:17

Are we done asking jews?

Nice job hijacking a thread, mindless troll.

Edit: And way to quote wikipedia... LOL ;)

Obbe

2008-12-14, 04:18

Are we done asking jews?

Are you done harassing others because they believe something is reasonable that you believe in unreasonable?

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-14, 04:19

Are you done harassing others because they believe something is reasonable that you believe in unreasonable?

Someone like him could never understand G-d.

killallthewhiteman

2008-12-14, 12:01

i think you scared him off.

aLn

2008-12-15, 04:06

i think you scared him off.

Good. That troll is not worth the effort. :) All i see is he goes into every thread just trying to bash on religious people.

redzed

2008-12-15, 05:13

Good. That troll is not worth the effort. :) All i see is he goes into every thread just trying to bash on religious people.

BS! He called the posters on their baseless claims and presented evidence that seems to prove them wrong so they started calling him names. Way to fail!

BrokeProphet

2008-12-15, 21:24

Nice job hijacking a thread, mindless troll.

Edit: And way to quote wikipedia... LOL ;)

As I recall, I was having a peaceful conversation with the OP, when you decided to insert YOURSELF, tell the OP I should be ignored on the basis of my name, and offered nothing more than ad hominem. Then proceeded to make an assertion, back it up with nothing, and engage me in further ad hominem.

You have added NOTHING susbstantial to this thread, and are ignorant enough to suggest I am a troll?

What was unmindful or trollish on my part: teaching you history, or validating my assertion?

------------

PS: Way to quote and source NOTHING to back up ANY of your claims. :)

You have failed, and are too fucking dense to even realize it.

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-16, 02:28

Buddy you didn't teach me history, haha, I study history. You didn't teach me nothin'.

The reason I decided to ignore your "fact filled" post is I realize the truth, it's that all your here to do is provoke those who have faith.

You come here with your anti-Semitic claims, your "wikipedia" version of history and your obsessive need to insult those who follow G-d.

I am sorry but if you are not willing to post on this forum in a respectful manner, then no one will be willing to converse with you. It's that simple.

AnotherN00b

2008-12-16, 07:32

lostmyface i would be interested in some more details about the Jewish messiah and paradise...etc also is it true Jews don't believe in a 'Hell'

BrokeProphet

2008-12-18, 22:56

Buddy you didn't teach me history, haha, I study history. You didn't teach me nothin'..

What obviously wasn't taught to you in your study of history, was to cite your sources when making historical claims...haha

Right, buddy?

The reason I decided to ignore your "fact filled" post is I realize the truth, it's that all your here to do is provoke those who have faith.

And here I thought you ignored it b/c of the painful facts that fly directly into the face of what you shat on this thread and attempted to pass off as truth.

You come here with your anti-Semitic claims, your "wikipedia" version of history and your obsessive need to insult those who follow G-d..

Wikipedia has numerous materials sourced at the bottom for each bit of information presented in the articles. I shouldn't have to tell a history buff like yourself that many of those sources are valid historical material, but here we are, and I find myself having to tell you.

Regardless of how you personally feel about wikipedia I remind you that as far as evidence to back up one's claim in our little argument it is infinitely more valid than yours, considering you have yet to present any.

It isn't too often a person gets to suggest their evidence is INFINITELY more valid than that of their opponent, but here we are, and I correctly suggest that.

It does feel good.

As far as me being anti-semitic:

I simply will not be pigeonholed by a mental midget such as yourself into being an anti-semite. Please tell me how anything I have suggested here is anti-semitic. I suggest you read the definition first, as you may find yourself holding your ass, in another argument with me, in very short order.

I am not an anti-semite, but it would not matter if I were, considering it is complete ad hominem. I could be a cannibal baby raper, and still be able to make a valid point.

I am sorry but if you are not willing to post on this forum in a respectful manner, then no one will be willing to converse with you. It's that simple.

I will remind you again that I was having a respectful exchange with the OP, when you decided to insert YOURSELF, tell the OP I should be ignored on the basis of my name, and offered nothing more than ad hominem. Then proceeded to make an assertion, back it up with nothing, and engage me in further ad hominem.

Now, you lecture me about respect?

How sad, that this is your final pathetic refuge from my argument.

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-19, 21:52

During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour issued what became known as the Balfour Declaration, which "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." The Jewish Legion, a group of battalions composed primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine.

In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".

After WWII.....

The British had notified the U.N. of their intent to terminate the mandate not later than 1 August 1948, but Jewish Leadership led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared independence on 14 May. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries, but not by the surrounding Arab states. Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded Israel.

Okay, I admit. There was some bloodshed. Both sides are to blame though. The arabs refuse to accept Israel as a permanent and leading nation in that region.

I will give you that, and it is much more then you deserve, given the utter disrespect you have shown me. (And don't give me anymore of that "ad-hominen" bullshit.)

Instead of spending all my time disproving this pompous troll, I will instead make this post into a positive by expressing my wishes for a Happy and Joyous Hanukkah.

Please wish the best for Israel as you celebrate this most holy of occasion.

So to all the Jews on totse, HAPPY HANUKKAH!

BrokeProphet

2008-12-19, 23:48

Okay, I admit. There was some bloodshed. Both sides are to blame though. The arabs refuse to accept Israel as a permanent and leading nation in that region.

Why should they accept having their land stolen from them? I personally wish they would, but completely understand why they don't.

I don't think it is fair that you suggest the Palestinians who were invaded by forces intent on setting up a Jewish state are to blame.

I digress......

My entire point was that things would have been better for everyone, (Jews, Arabs, and Americans) if the Jewish people were given land elsewhere.

Tell me how I am wrong with that assertion.

Tell me how setting up Israel in Brazilian clear cut, and paid for jungle, would have been as bad as the current situation.

Tell me how setting up the Jewish state in Alaska, and just giving the entire state of Alaska to the Jews, would have been as bad as the current situation.

-----------

How can you or anyone else HONESTLY believe the creation of Israel on the holy land was a good idea?

I will give you that, and it is much more then you deserve, given the utter disrespect you have shown me. (And don't give me anymore of that "ad-hominen" bullshit.).

Tell me, what did you do in our conversation that warranted my respect?

>>>Was it suggesting I be ignored on the basis of my name?
>>>Was it accusing me of being an anti-semite, b/c I simply disagree with the creation of Israel on Palestine (which is not being an anti-semite, btw)?
>>>Was it when you called me a troll, in your intitial trollish post?

You STARTED our entire conversation with these three things, and actually expected a respectful response? You honestly expect to just walk up to someone you disagree with, call them names, and then feel you deserve respect?

Get fucked.

----

I will now go ahead and show you what disrespect from me is, so that you will understand the difference between me being disrespectful, and me being poignant:

I am amazed that someone who can read and write can be as dumb as you. I am now convinced that you are in a shelter somewhere and you and at least two other drooling, helmet-wearing, waterheads are using every bit of your pickled brain power to come up with something clever or intelligent to say.

Your primitive attempts at forming any kind of valid point has been about as entertaining as watching a cross eyed retarded puppy trying to lick it's asshole, and it has been about that sad and pathetic, as well.

So before I break down into tears, either from laughter or genuine pity, just stop.

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-20, 00:53

Why should they accept having their land stolen from them? I personally wish they would, but completely understand why they don't.

I don't think it is fair that you suggest the Palestinians who were invaded by forces intent on setting up a Jewish state are to blame.

I digress......

My entire point was that things would have been better for everyone, (Jews, Arabs, and Americans) if the Jewish people were given land elsewhere.

Tell me how I am wrong with that assertion.

Tell me how setting up Israel in Brazilian clear cut, and paid for jungle, would have been as bad as the current situation.

Tell me how setting up the Jewish state in Alaska, and just giving the entire state of Alaska to the Jews, would have been as bad as the current situation.

-----------

How can you or anyone else HONESTLY believe the creation of Israel on the holy land was a good idea?

Tell me, what did you do in our conversation that warranted my respect?

>>>Was it suggesting I be ignored on the basis of my name?
>>>Was it accusing me of being an anti-semite, b/c I simply disagree with the creation of Israel on Palestine (which is not being an anti-semite, btw)?
>>>Was it when you called me a troll, in your intitial trollish post?

You STARTED our entire conversation with these three things, and actually expected a respectful response? You honestly expect to just walk up to someone you disagree with, call them names, and then feel you deserve respect?

Get fucked.

----

I will now go ahead and show you what disrespect from me is, so that you will understand the difference between me being disrespectful, and me being poignant:

I am amazed that someone who can read and write can be as dumb as you. I am now convinced that you are in a shelter somewhere and you and at least two other drooling, helmet-wearing, waterheads are using every bit of your pickled brain power to come up with something clever or intelligent to say.

Your primitive attempts at forming any kind of valid point has been about as entertaining as watching a cross eyed retarded puppy trying to lick it's asshole, and it has been about that sad and pathetic, as well.

So before I break down into tears, either from laughter or genuine pity, just stop.

Wow for someone who asserts he so intelligent it's humorous you don't even know one of the most important and key elements of this whole issue. Which is why the Jews need to live in Israel.

Here i'll do what you do every post, instead of taking the time to write yourself (except when you insult), and quote you something. The citation is at the bottom. It is not "Wikipedia" (thank G-d).

The 3,000-year Jewish connection
1) The only independent sovereign nations to ever exist in the Land of Israel were the two ancient Jewish commonwealths (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html#a), the second of which was destroyed in 70 of the common era.
2) For 3,000 years, Jews have expressed the desire to return to their ancestral homeland: (http://www.cardozoschool.org/cardozo/thoughts84.htm) at the Passover Seder, the Yom Kippur service, in daily prayer, in the blessing after meals, under the wedding canopy, on the yearly day of national mourning Tisha B'Av, and by placing Israeli soil in the coffin of their deceased.
3) Even after exile, Jews managed to keep a continual presence (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060915331/103-4884908-3210255?v=glance) of Jewish communities in such cities as Jerusalem, Tzfat, Tiberias, Shechem, and Hebron.
4) Centuries before the inception of Islam, Jews were yearning to return to Israel, and the Koran itself records (http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)this in many suras (chapters), such as 17:7, 17:104, and 5:21 that tells the Jews to "enter into the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you."
oh and about Israel and the U.N:

The UN and International Law
1) The 1917 Balfour Declaration, the League of Nations Mandate, the 1947 UN Partition Plan, and Israel's 1949 admission into the UN reaffirmed Israel the international right (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf3.html) to exist as the Jewish homeland.
2) UN Security Council Resolution 242 (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf3.html) reads that Israel should relinquish land only if it is in the context of a "peaceful and accepted settlement."
3) UN Resolution 242 requires that all states in the area recognize Israel's "right to live in peace with secure and recognized borders free from threats or acts of force."
4) Until 2002, Israel was the only UN member state (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf13.html#a) ineligible to sit on the Security Council, and today that right is still only limited and temporary. Since the 1970s, an Arab-Soviet-Third World Bloc reinforced Israel's outcast status by barring Israel from other key UN bodies and making Israel the object of more investigative committees and special representatives than any other state in the UN.
Source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Four_Points_Arguments_for_Israel.asp

edit= Oh and nice attempt at "Insulting" me at the end of your last point. Your stupidity sure gave me a chuckle. How about next time you get the feeling you should insult someone, you instead read a book...fucking chimp.

killallthewhiteman

2008-12-20, 01:39

come on guys be polite; this is Q&A between lostface and interested people, go and de-rail others with your amazing irrefutable intellect and logic elsewhere.

nshanin

2008-12-20, 02:02

Hey jew, dont make it bad.
Take a sad song and make it better.
Remember to let her into your heart,
Then you can start to make it better.

Hey jew, dont be afraid.
You were made to go out and get her.
The minute you let her under your skin,
Then you begin to make it better.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-20, 02:05

Which is why the Jews need to live in Israel..

Way to waste space on the thread with your articles.

The four reasons Jews needed to live in Israel your article outlines are all summed up to this:

They wanted to.

Whether it was b/c their bible told them so, or they wanted to bury their dead in their ancient homeland, or they felt they had a right to it, or their were Jewish communities already there. Basically you point out the obvious fact that they wanted to.

Which is great, but does nothing to my argument, which I will restate again:

My point is that Israel could have been place in a number of locations on this Earth, and it would have been better for everyone.

Which is why I assert:

Israel on the Holy Land = HUGE MISTAKE.

Again creating Israel in Brazilian jungle, or Alaska would have saved everyone a lot of pain and suffering. I have asked you over and over why these places would not have been better for everyone, and neither you or your articles answers this.

I won't ask again, as it is quite clear you are uncomfortable or incapable of answering.

Just realize you are not addressing my argument and have not made any progress since your first post.

-------

The point of my entire argument was not whether the UN recognized Israel, it had to do with how wise of descision the placement of the new state was, so this point of yours is moot.

On that note however, nothing the UN did AFTER the military conquest of this land and it's people, would mean fuck all to me if I happened to live there.

So if you are suggesting these people have no right to be upset b/c the UN said the military conquest, displacement, and human rights violations committed against them are legal, think again.

Oh and nice attempt at "Insulting" me at the end of your last point.

True, I could not insult you any worse than you have already insulted yourself with your baseless assertions, trollish behavior, ad hominem attacks, hypocrisy, refusal to actually counter my point, and the willful ignorance it takes to not realize the truth of these things.

The insult is you, and EVERYTHING you have posted here, Ronaldo.

Martian Luger King

2008-12-20, 02:06

Nshanin, DurrDrache, Zay and AE5150 would like to know when you want them to swallow your cum, as they are your humble servants being liberal queer progressive faggots and all.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-20, 02:07

come on guys be polite; this is Q&A between lostface and interested people, go and de-rail others with your amazing irrefutable intellect and logic elsewhere.

Go back and witness my conversation with lostface that was derailed by this fucking troll.

My response to this fucking troll is on the end of page 5 now.

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-20, 04:53

I find your stupidity, breathtaking. Haha, I was literally gagging trying to breath through my laughter when I read your crud-storm of a post.

You can't make Alaska: "ISRAEL", you cannot transform the Brazilian jungle into "ISRAEL".

The reason the Hebrew people wanted to return to ISRAEL was because it is ISRAEL! Can't you understand that, you mutt?

I can see clearly what you are attempting to do. And whatever point you are making is childish and ignorant.

Instead of further ruining this once promising thread, I would advise you refrain from posting here. Actually it would probably be best you stop posting in this entire forum. You do not believe in G-d, you really have no reason to be here. I think people are getting sick of your crap.

-----------------------------

I would like to bring this thread back on subject. I feel I am quite qualified, and I will attempt to answer some questions, for the OP.

lostmyface i would be interested in some more details about the Jewish messiah and paradise...etc also is it true Jews don't believe in a 'Hell'The "Jewish Messiah" is basically one of G-d's angels that has been foretold to come to earth and lead the Hebrew people to overwhelming greatness. Many prominent scholars have made predictions as to when he set to return but it is truly impossible for any mortal to know.

Jewish people do not believe in a "Hell". It makes no logical sense to us. Nowhere in the Torah does it mention a "Hell". "Hell" is merely a construct of christian fear mongering and control. There is a place for those who are bad, where they are punished, but only for twelve months (at most). This place is called Gehinnom. If the punishment was not effective, then there soul is simply destroyed. The rest get to go to Gan Eden.

Gan Eden, is the world to come. It literally means "Garden of Eden". Those who follow the Torah (and some righteous gentiles), are admitted acceptance into this paradise after they die. It is a great place where all your desires are satisfied. It is the closest thing to a christian "heaven".

I hope this helped answer your question. If anyone has anymore questions I will gladly do my best to try and answer them.

I also apologize for that other poster's behavior.

I would also like to yet again wish all Jews on totse a Happy Hanukkah! Don't pig out on the fried Livivot. ;)

nshanin

2008-12-20, 05:13

I find your stupidity, breathtaking. Haha, I was literally gagging trying to breath through my laughter when I read your crud-storm of a post.

Hey jew, dont make it bad.
Take a sad song and make it better.

BrokeProphet

2008-12-20, 05:35

I am dealing in facts.....

You can't make Alaska: "ISRAEL", you cannot transform the Brazilian jungle into "ISRAEL".

FACT: The Jewish people needed a nation. This nation could have been created somewhere else, and still met the intended goal of ending the Jewish Question.

If you cannot acknowledge the FACT that another spot on Earth COULD have been used to create a nation for Jews, then your faith has blinded to you to simple FACT.

The reason the Hebrew people wanted to return to ISRAEL was because it is ISRAEL! Can't you understand that, you mutt?

FACT: What you are still unable to do, and what the above quote fails to do, is demonstrate in any way shape or form, WHY it was such a good idea to create Israel in it's current place, as opposed to my SILL VALID assertion that it was a mistake.

--------

Sigh.......I ask again.......

Please tell me why this Jewish nation being created in it's current location, was better than creating a nation for the Jews elsewhere.

You assert how smart you are and how dumb I am, so this itty bitty question shouldn't be a problem for you, should it? Yet, I have had to ask it over, and over, and over again, and you refuse to even begin to answer it.

If you are so smart, why don't you at least attempt to answer it?

Can you, smart guy?

----------------

You do not believe in G-d, you really have no reason to be here.

Spoken like a true believer in the Holy Bible.

"Agree with me or shut up."

You are a credit to your faith.

I could not have made such a poignant point alone, so I thank you. ;)

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-21, 03:21

Wow, you really are dense. Although I know you are merely provoking for you own twisted amusement.

How can I explain this to you... Hmm... I assume you are obviously an ex-christian. Remember that song "Noel". When it said G-d is the King of Israel? Do you know where they are talking about? They are not talking about some made up place! There is and has always been a place on this earth called "Israel". In Israel there is a town named "Bethleham". This town is where christian's believe their "prophet" was born.

Please get this through your thick skull.

Chimro

2008-12-21, 04:39

To the OP: Go to hell you pharisee bastard.

For everyone else: You really don't think you can trust a Jew do you? If you want to know what the "Jews" really believe, read the Talmud yourself.

Defect

2008-12-21, 05:21

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-21, 18:11

Given some of the quality of the fucking comments, it wouldn't surprise me if you don't bother with this thread anymore.

However, if you do, I got a serious question.

A friend told me that jews believe that god is unknowable and approach Him more mysteriously than Christians. He mentioned something about Christians praying for specific things, and jews being more vague, or not even asking at all, or something. Can you clarify or dispel this possible bullshit?

Your friend is actually quite spot on. Where christians kneel and beg for "gifts from G-d", the Jews know that G-d is not some "santa claus" giving out free presents.

Jews know that any fruits of their efforts are a result of their own doing. They do not "thank G-d" for things that they have done themselves. It is illogical to them.

Yes G-d is unknowable. You cannot "become acquainted" with a life force that is so much superior then humans.

On the other hand sometimes it is necessary to thank G-d for when he steps in and intervenes for the betterment of man. Such is the reason Jews celebrate Hanukkah. G-d stepped in and saved his chosen. May the lights of Hanukkah usher in a better world for all The Chosen.Hanukkah begins tonight. I wish all the Hebrews on totse a Happy Hanukkah!!!

BrokeProphet

2008-12-21, 21:55

How can I explain this to you... Hmm... I assume you are obviously an ex-christian. Remember that song "Noel". When it said G-d is the King of Israel? Do you know where they are talking about? They are not talking about some made up place! There is and has always been a place on this earth called "Israel". In Israel there is a town named "Bethleham". This town is where christian's believe their "prophet" was born.

I am aware of what the bible says in regards to Israel. To assert I am not, when I have suggested it numerous times in this thread is dishonest.

I just wanted to make sure that this is how you wish to respond, b/c it seems all too easy to own your simple ass on this......alright.....let's do it.....

-------

So, you assert that b/c the Bible says so, Israel belongs to the Jews. You believe this makes Israel a good idea as opposed to my suggestion it is a mistake.

So, when a muslim asserts that Jews must be fought, and killed, and not to befriend them, b/c of the Koran, what makes them wrong?

Try to keep up here, it will get a little tricky for YOU.....

Both groups are acting upon information that is unverifiable and unfalisfiable. That is to say, niether of you can VERIFY that your books, prophets, Gods, etc. is true, and you cannot DISPROVE the other.

Can you?

No.

So what we have is a stalemate of ideas until one of you prove your God, which will be the only way to disprove the other, and thus the teachings. Which if the scriptures ARE true, will not happen until the end of time.

Bloodshed until the end of time, is not what I consider a good idea.

You seem to disagree.

------

What you seem ignorant of is the fact that your mentality regarding this situation is the same mentality of your enemy. Meaning that you and people like you are every bit as much a part of the problem, as a person who straps dynamite on their chest and blows up a school bus.

You won't realize this, as you are a tool and victim of your backwards primitive beliefs, and far too stupid to ever become aware of it.

I pity you.

Something to think about while you light your magic candles tonight.

------

This entire thread, should be stickied as a reason why organized religion is and has been a dangerous, and possibly greatest mistake, of humankind.

Chimro

2008-12-22, 02:49

A friend told me that jews believe that god is unknowable and approach Him more mysteriously than Christians. He mentioned something about Christians praying for specific things, and jews being more vague, or not even asking at all, or something. Can you clarify or dispel this possible bullshit?

Jews hate the true god Jesus Christ, the god of the Jews is satan.

Hexadecimal

2008-12-23, 06:47

so, i think alot of you goyim are confused as to what us jews actually believe in. so i am going to try an dispell some common mistakes an answer any questions you all have. i have been a jew my whole life. an while i have not always been a practicing jew, i feel that i am still more informed about this religion than most of totse.

so &t ask your questions an i will try an answer them to the best of my abilities.

If you're fairly versed in the OT, could you explain to &totse what the TNK really is?

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-23, 22:13

If you're fairly versed in the OT, could you explain to &totse what the TNK really is?

It is the three books of the Torah.

The T stands for "Torah" which means teachings or laws.

The N stands for Nevv'im which means "prophets" for the "book of prophets".

And the K stands for K'Tuvin mean writings, or psalms.

The Torah is arguably the most influential book in history. It's teachings, philosophy, and moral code is unsurpassed. Even the christians don't deny it's important and have even taken it as one of "their" books.

The fact is though that Judaism is really the only religion which follows this sacred text properly.

Chimro

2008-12-24, 05:25

The fact is though that Judaism is really the only religion which follows this sacred text properly.

Yeah, that must be why you serpents altered most of the Torah's laws when you wrote the Talmud.

Ron Smythberg

2008-12-24, 06:42

Yeah, that must be why you serpents altered most of the Torah's laws when you wrote the Talmud.

Oh why don't you just shut your hate filled mouth, you nazi-scumsucking weasel.

DarthVader77

2008-12-24, 17:52

sorry if this has already been asked but,

why are jews so fucking cheap to everyone but themselves?

BrokeProphet

2008-12-25, 20:46

The fact is though that Judaism is really the only religion which follows this sacred text properly.

The entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows: Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord."

What was the last animal sacrifice you made? The last wave offering? Burnt offering?

Judaism is the only religion who follows the text properly, so they still stone fags, witches, sabbath breakers, prostitutes and the like...........right?

---------------

Judaism took what it liked, left what it did not.

Muslims I think follow the OT better than Jews. They still stone those who offend the ancient laws (fags, witches, prostitutes), and they have actual animal sacrifice, wave offerings, burnt offerings and other fun stone age traditions.

-------------

So before you look down your nose at Christians or Muslims, perhaps you should take one of your pets, cut it open, wave the entrails before God, dip you finger in the blood, smear some on your ear lobes and toes, and take a bagfull of rocks down to the local fag bar, and start chucking.

Me, I think you are all equally foolish in your primitive superstitions.

Oh why don't you just shut your hate filled mouth, you nazi-scumsucking weasel.

Ignore the weasel, he is a known troll and rabid anti-semite. He has zero intellectual respect here, and is kept around as sort of a joke. Kind of like Jabba's monkey-lizard.

Chimro

2008-12-25, 21:49

why are jews so fucking cheap to everyone but themselves?

Jews consider all non-Jews to be "goyim", which means cattle, for this reason they don't see any reason to be kind, charitable, or even civilized with non-Jews. Their religious book, the Talmud, even says they can kill and rape non-Jews without getting in trouble with their god, which is actually satan.

DarthVader77

2008-12-26, 20:22

Jews consider all non-Jews to be "goyim", which means cattle, for this reason they don't see any reason to be kind, charitable, or even civilized with non-Jews. Their religious book, the Talmud, even says they can kill and rape non-Jews without getting in trouble with their god, which is actually satan.

oh ok. hey, i think christians took a page out of the talmud when it comes to religious wars. its only ok to kill Muslims if its in gods name.

RabidZombie

2008-12-29, 00:00

Oh why don't you just shut your hate filled mouth, you nazi-scumsucking weasel.

lulz....

https://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2126480

pretty sure this evidence is enough to declare Smythberg a troll.

Ganja Fett

2008-12-29, 01:52

I was enjoying this thread (especially Brokeprophet) until Ron Smythberg came in and ruined the thread. Lostmyface agrees with Brokeprophet that Israel was a bad idea. So just stfu already you moron and come back when you actually have information related to the thread.

lostmyface

2009-01-03, 16:28

sorry guys that i have not been here in awhile. sorry to bust your egos but it was not because i got scared off. it was because i decided not to pay my cable bills anymore. but tha madness has left me, an i now have a new better paying job. so i should be here for awhile i think.

so let us continue the conversation i guess.

israel vs hamas. i think the israeli state should change its flag to a swastika, because they are acting like total nazis right now. bombing universities an civilians. not letting the red cross in. and i listened to their ambassador last night on cnn, he sounded like fucking hitler. what is wrong with THOSES jews over there? dont they know they are making the rest of us look fucking crazy?

Rizzo in a box

2009-01-03, 17:54

why did you do WTC?

lostmyface

2009-01-03, 18:09

why did you do WTC?

for teh lulz:rolleyes:

Rizzo in a box

2009-01-03, 18:12

for teh lulz:rolleyes:

damn you!!

BrokeProphet

2009-01-03, 20:35

what is wrong with THOSES jews over there?

Religion, is what is wrong with them.

It is the same disease that makes a man more willing to put a bomb on his chest and blow up a nursery school.

It is the same disease that makes our leaders and those who vote for them, think that Israel's existence is somehow our fight, our problem, our burden.

------

Israel is the bloodiest patch of ground on this little planet, and religion is the reason.

lostmyface

2009-01-03, 21:59

lostmyface i would be interested in some more details about the Jewish messiah and paradise...etc also is it true Jews don't believe in a 'Hell'

i will answer the last question first an the first question last. yes, it is true that jews dont believe in hell.

now into the meat of it. belief in the eventual coming of the messiah or moshiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, traditionaly recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the moshiach. Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "moshiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good).

lostmyface

2009-01-04, 00:01

sorry if this has already been asked but,

why are jews so fucking cheap to everyone but themselves?

because you are a cunt.

ron smyth, i am not sure if you are a jew or not, but thanks for answering many of the questions on here while i was with out webz, you were spot on in a few places.

as for the debate on israel, i think it could be better carried out in politics or humanities.

also i edited the first page a bit so that i could describe judasim a bit better.

BrokeProphet

2009-01-04, 01:53

as for the debate on israel, i think it could be better carried out in politics or humanities.

I disagree.

Israel is a case in point, a constant bloody reminder of the detriment religion has brought and is bringing to lives of people the world over. Israel is not genocide in Rwanda, it is not elections in Venzuala, or some other political or humanity issue.

Israel from it's beginning was grounded in the cannons and doctrines of religious faith. Israel's creation and the bloodshed that followed and continues, is a direct result of the teachings found in the blood stained pages of the Old Testament. The bloodshed for over two thousand years there is related to religion. It is the birthplace of the three biggest religions in the world.

The discussion over Israel, clearly belongs in My God.

lostmyface

2009-01-04, 02:51

I disagree.

as do i with you. this thread was meant to be about the jewish religion, not the jewish state. there is a difference between the two, and thus they should be treated accordingly

Israel is a case in point, a constant bloody reminder of the detriment religion has brought and is bringing to lives of people the world over. Israel is not genocide in Rwanda, it is not elections in Venzuala, or some other political or humanity issue.

so what you are saying is religion is bad. good point. i am glad we had this discussion. what does that have to do with my thread other than the fact that you dont like judasim? you are right israel is not genocide in rwanda or elections in venezula. israel IS genocid in gaza and election fraud in the west bank. i think the israel state and its political actions should be discussed in politics. as for the historical facts of the creation of the state, well that belongs in humanities where they discuss things of historical nature.

Israel from it's beginning was grounded in the cannons and doctrines of religious faith. Israel's creation and the bloodshed that followed and continues, is a direct result of the teachings found in the blood stained pages of the Old Testament. The bloodshed for over two thousand years there is related to religion. It is the birthplace of the three biggest religions in the world.

you are right. many died and are dying thanks to israel. you also right that israel is a state supposedly founded on jewish beliefs. but what does that mean? well if you read my post you will find that jewish beliefs can mean alot of different things to alot of different people. some see the old testament as bloodstained. others see it as a little more than a fable. i would say the blood shed over the past 2000 years have been for more political than religious reasons. the fall of the kings of judae the rise an fall of rome. an the rise an fall of the ottomans. the ascent of europe. sure religion played a part, but mostly i would say greed drove the gears of war for the last 3000 years not faith. you are wrong in saying it is the birth place of the three religions. judaism was born in the Egyptian dessert (if you trust the old testament) Islam was founded in Medina, and Christianity, well i guess you got 1 out of 3. not to shabby. edit judaism is not even part of the big three. i think it is Hindu, Muslim, and Christian.

The discussion over Israel, clearly belongs in My God.

this discussion clearly belongs somewhere else

BrokeProphet

2009-01-04, 03:59

as do i with you. this thread was meant to be about the jewish religion, not the jewish state. there is a difference between the two, and thus they should be treated accordingly

The Jewish religion is the reason Israel was created in it's location. The violence there is execerbated by both Judaism and one of it's successors Islam.

To discuss the formation and problems concerning Israel IS to discuss the Jewish faith and the role it played in it.

To discuss the Jewish faith, is to discuss everything, even it's greatest mistake, the creation of Israel.

so what you are saying is religion is bad. good point. i am glad we had this discussion. what does that have to do with my thread other than the fact that you dont like judasim?

If you only want to discuss judaism with sycophantic believers, then I sugget posting in a tightly controlled Jewish website, or some other place where the first admendment regarding free speech isn't the first thing you see when you log on.

i think the israel state and its political actions should be discussed in politics. as for the historical facts of the creation of the state, well that belongs in humanities where they discuss things of historical nature.

I am discussing the negative impact Judaism has had on it's own people, and the world at large, with the creation of Israel.

If you want this THREAD to be more about milk baths, dradles and kosher meals, fine. But you suggest that this entire topic does not belong in this particular FORUM.

sure religion played a part, but mostly i would say greed drove the gears of war for the last 3000 years not faith.

What were all of those crusades about I wonder?

I wonder why people have sought to conquer the holy land over the years.

this discussion clearly belongs somewhere else

Again if you dont wish to discuss it in your thread, then find, answer questions about dradles. But it does belong in My God.

Chimro

2009-01-04, 10:32

oh ok. hey, i think christians took a page out of the talmud when it comes to religious wars. its only ok to kill Muslims if its in gods name.

What are you talking about? :rolleyes: The Bible doesn't even mention Muslims, Islam was created 600 years after the New Testament was finished.

These so called "Christian" preachers and politicians supporting the Jewish war against the Middle East and against American white, Christian soldiers are obviously wolves in sheeps' clothing. It's pretty damn obvious. They continually point to the lying pharisee Jews as "God's chosen people", they make ridiculous unbiblical claims that Jews can get into heaven without Jesus Christ, and never preach the gospel properly.

lostmyface

2009-01-04, 16:46

i missed our talks broke

The Jewish religion is the reason Israel was created in it's location. The violence there is execerbated by both Judaism and one of it's successors Islam.

france, britian, and the usa are why israel is where it is today. the fact that it is "historically" a jewish place helped. but you would be fooling your self if you thought that was the sole reason israel was placed where it is.

the violence there is exacerbated by jews an muslims though. you are right.

To discuss the formation and problems concerning Israel IS to discuss the Jewish faith and the role it played in it.

To discuss the Jewish faith, is to discuss everything, even it's greatest mistake, the creation of Israel.

to discuss the formation an problems concerning israel is to discuss the geo political situation of the 1940's and today. that is it. plain and simple. you would have better luck understanding the current situation if you were to look at oil wells in the region, rather than religious text written 5000 years ago

If you only want to discuss judaism with sycophantic believers, then I sugget posting in a tightly controlled Jewish website, or some other place where the first admendment regarding free speech isn't the first thing you see when you log on.

i dont want to talk with sycophantic believers, cause i am not one of them. i just want to answer some questions on what it is jews believe in. have even been reading any of my post?

I am discussing the negative impact Judaism has had on it's own people, and the world at large, with the creation of Israel.

so thanks to the creation of israel, judasim is now having a negative impact on jews an the world. i agree with some of this.
but i would not blame judasim. i would blame the POLITICAL STATE of israel for the negative impact on jews an the world. again one must realize there is a difference between a state an a religion. it is what that first amendment you have such a stiffy for is all about.

If you want this THREAD to be more about milk baths, dradles and kosher meals, fine. But you suggest that this entire topic does not belong in this particular FORUM.

if people have questions about dreidles kosher meals or milk baths (whatever the fuck that means) then i will be happy to discuss it. i think most of this topic belongs in this forum. i just dont think the discussion of a political state or its history belong in a forum about religion.

i mean you would not want to talk about Indian elections in this forum just because india is a hindu state.

What were all of those crusades about I wonder?

due to the inheritance laws of the time europe had too many young jobless landless males trained only to fight. these males were causing havoc all across europe. plus the pope was near broke. so they figured hey two birds with one stone. we will send the restless to the "holly lands" and maybe they can bring back plunder. sure, most of the folks who went an fought did so for religious reasons, but the people turning the wheels did it for there own benefits. not to appease some old man in the sky. i mean fuck, the sacking of byzantine Constantinople should show these wars were more about gold than god.

I wonder why people have sought to conquer the holy land over the years.

not because it is at the cross roads of trade. that is for sure.:rolleyes:

Again if you dont wish to discuss it in your thread, then find, answer questions about dradles. But it does belong in My God.

i want to discuss articles of jewish faith. not driedles. not milk baths. and not historical reinterpretations of a political state.

BrokeProphet

2009-01-04, 21:35

france, britian, and the usa are why israel is where it is today. the fact that it is "historically" a jewish place helped. but you would be fooling your self if you thought that was the sole reason israel was placed where it is.

Zionism can be distinguished from Territorialism, a Jewish nationalist movement willing to contemplate a Jewish homeland anywhere. During the early history of Zionism, a number of proposals were made for settling Jews outside of Europe, but ultimately all of these were rejected or failed.

The zionist Chaim Weizmann played a major role in the Balfour Declaration and the league of nation mandates needed to legally displace the Palestinians on the Jews God promised land, by military force.

.....all of this, because of a bronze age text of tribal folklore.

-----

Now did the league of nations have it's own agenda, such as oil in the region or trade?

Well, I am sure they did.

But that wasn't what motivated the zionists who brokered the Balfour Declaration, and got this whole shit storm started, now was it?

If you suggest it was greed that motivated the Zionists, I still have to call foul on religion for yet again serving only as a catalyst, an enabler of greedy men. A way to consolidate power, for their private gain.

I am discussing Israel in a religious context. You can't stop me and you cannot trick me into believing I am really having a political or historical discussion. That you would try is just bizarre.

i mean you would not want to talk about Indian elections in this forum just because india is a hindu state.

I would if this Hindu state received tons of cash from my county, to fight an enemy that only exists b/c they disagree on imaginary friends, and has a problem with them b/c of their religions' insistence upon living right next door, against all MOTHER FUCKING LOGIC, REASON, AND SENSE.

To fucking pretend I have made a political argument about Israel and not a religious one is dishonest. To pretend that when discussing Israel, one must do so in a purely political fashion is not only dishonest, it is moronic.

i mean fuck, the sacking of byzantine Constantinople should show these wars were more about gold than god..

The fact that soldiers stole treasure during war, does not show this to be the main cause of said war.

i want to discuss articles of jewish faith. not driedles. not milk baths. and not historical reinterpretations of a political state.

There is no fucking reinterpretation.

Zionists led the charge to have their home where the magic book said to have it. It has been a fucking disaster every since. This is why bronze age beliefs should BE LEFT IN THE FUCKING BRONZE AGE.

The above has been my contention since we started this discussion. As you can plainly see, it is a religious argument, not a political one.

This discussion belongs in this forum............NOW can Israel be discussed from more of a historical or geo political perspective, you fucking bet. Is that what I have done, or the perspective I have taken?

CLEARLY NOT.

You are ignorant in suggesting the creation of Israel must be discussed in either a historical or political fashion, and not from a religious perspective. That is just ignorant, and dishonest to the posts I have made.

Please stop.

DarthVader77

2009-01-06, 21:50

What are you talking about? :rolleyes: The Bible doesn't even mention Muslims, Islam was created 600 years after the New Testament was finished.

first, i never said anything about the bible. second, im talking about the crusades which started in 1099.....? four hundred years after islam was created. third, what did i mean? i mean that whoever answered my first question said that it was quite alright (or so) for jews to kill non-jews, and i simply said that that is very closely related to what the crusades were about. spreading christianity, and if that means killing, raping, and pillaging on the way to doing it, then its alright cus its in God's name.

lostmyface

2009-01-06, 22:42

i mean that whoever answered my first question said that it was quite alright (or so) for jews to kill non-jews,

sorry mate, but who ever told you this was lying. no where in the jewish religion is it said that it is ok to kill non jews. NO WHERE.

it is one of those ten commandment things. thou shalt not kill i think it is. perhaps those "jews" in israel should have a look at them. you know refresh their minds on what it is that is expected of them.

Starchild

2009-01-07, 01:23

Why do you have big noses and are hideously ugly?

And why do you want to rule the world?

DarthVader77

2009-01-07, 03:13

sorry mate, but who ever told you this was lying. no where in the jewish religion is it said that it is ok to kill non jews. NO WHERE.

it is one of those ten commandment things. thou shalt not kill i think it is. perhaps those "jews" in israel should have a look at them. you know refresh their minds on what it is that is expected of them.

thanks, i was pretty sure that statement was flawed, but u just never know with some people

lostmyface

2009-01-07, 03:18

Why do you have big noses

because air is free :rolleyes:

and are hideously ugly?

to scare away you gentiles an goyim from our jew gold stashes ;)

And why do you want to rule the world?

because they kicked us out of Venus 8000 years ago. so we needed a new home. this place looked nice.:p

nshanin

2009-01-07, 14:31

because air is free :rolleyes:

Genius!

WritingANovel

2009-01-07, 16:00

Starchild

2009-01-07, 16:02

Because air is free

Too Right!

Starchild

2009-01-07, 16:04

because they kicked us out of Venus 8000 years ago. so we needed a new home. this place looked nice.:p

But they already let you rule Auschwitz, you should of stayed there.

Arbeit macht frei!

to scare away you gentiles an goyim from our jew gold stashes ;)

It rightfully belongs to Adolf!

DarthVader77

2009-01-07, 23:13

It rightfully belongs to Adolf!

and his brother, Skip!

lostmyface

2009-01-11, 15:02

Hi OP:

First I just want to say that I appreciate your effort in helping people become educated with the Jewish people. Also I want to apologize about my previous behavior in that thread where I called you many nasty things. I can assure you that I am not racist towards the Jewish people/faith as a whole and I hope there are no hard feelings. Having said all that:

no hard feelings wan, you are a troll an will say anything to get a rise out of people. i cant hold a grudge against you for being who you are.

1. Are Hebrews the same as the Jewish people?

it is a question of time. hebrews refer to jews that lived in the land of israel before the assyrian captivity. jews an israelites refer to those that were born after the assyrian captivity.

2. Is it true that the Jewish people believe that they are entitled to a certain patch of land, just because their God told them so?

this depends on which jew you ask, as i have explained in my previous post many jews believe many different things. my personal understanding of the jewish faith is that israel is more of a mental/spiritual destination than an actual physical entity. many reformed jews share this belief. however if you were to ask a othordox jew they would tell you god set aside land for us and only us. cause we are special.:rolleyes:

3. If number 2 is true, what is stopping them from claiming that their God told them that the entire world belongs to them, and as such they are entitled to lording it over the rest of humanity? Keep in mind the validity of this question hinges entirely upon question number 2 being true.

this response depends on which segment of judasim you subscribe to. a orthodox will tell you something else, as will a conservative. i am a reformed jew so my beliefs are different as well. the answer below assumes that god really did promise a srtip of land to the jews almost 6000 years ago.

the torah mentions only a certain strip of land, known as cannaan, as being set aside for the jews. not the whole planet. also no where is it mentioned that jews should lord over all humanity, if anything jews are supposed to not get involved with the ruling of non jews.

4. Did the Jewish people ever have a land to begin with?

this depends on who you ask. if you look at it from a religious perspective then no, the jews did not have a land to begin with. as you will remember abraham the first jew came from the ancient Mesopotamian city state of Ur. after he became a jew by making a covenant with god abraham took his family and wondered through arabia until he came upon the land god told him about. then with the lords help the jews smote the canaanites an took their land

If you look at it from a historical perspective i would say yes, the jews did have a land to begin with. jews are a semitic people whose history can be traced by the study of language. it seems they originated in arabia an simply followed the caravan routes as a nomadic people calling most of mesopotamia home.
the jewish faith as we all know it today probably began during the egyptian captivity. eygpt the super power at that time was well known for enslaving its foes an moving them to far reaches of the empire. one of these enslaved groups was the semitic peoples. while in captivity they developed a unique belief system that would latter be called judasim.
It seems that most of the stories in the bible have little to no historical background an many were in fact created around the time of 800bc. just before the assyrian invasion an conquest.
the stories were made up by the kings of judea in a hope to bring about a common heritage that would unify the people in the coming fight. fictional characters probably include all the great kings from saul to david to solomon

of course the above is just one of many interpretations of events

5. Assuming the answer to 4 is no, how did they develop into a people without having a land on which to grow, prosper, and multiply?

read the above. but also it depends on who you ask. as i have said different jews believe different things.

remember many landless or nomadic tribes have been able to develop, grow, prosper, an multiply. a nomadic horde under Genghis Kahn was able to conquer most of the civilized world in only a few short years.

6. Is it true that the patch of land that is the state of Israel, was taken from the previous occupants by the Allies, and given to the Zionists, all without regards as to their (the previous occupants) welfare, and furthermore, against their will?

yes an no. some of the land was bought, some of it was agreed upon, but lots of it was simply taken by force. the allies did not take part in this taking by force, but they also did not try an stop it. the allies did broker many of the land purchases though. as you may or may not know the land had been promised to both the jews and the arabs after the breakdown of the ottoman empire.

as far as the previous occupants go, they were shafted by all sides. some of their leaders sold the land from out from under them, others simply told them to leave during the 1949 war and that they could come back once israel was shoved into the ocean. the allies broke their promises as well. and the zionist. well they were rabid. one of the first suicide bombers was actually a jew. killed alot of british soldiers.

the welfare of the people is very rarely taken into consideration. just open a history book. the only time a peoples welfare is taken into account is when their needs happen to coincide with the powers goals.

7. Why would the Allies feel the need to ensure the Jewish people have a homeland? Note I am not saying they shouldn't care; I am just wondering why they not only cared, but apparently to such a degree that they appropriated people's land?

i think it has to do witht he geo politics of the time. oil was being discoverd all over the place and the allies were spliting up into their cold war factions. the US, UK an France felt it would be good to have a friendly state in the region. so did the USSR. so one side backed israel an the other side backed the arabs.

it was not a need to ensure that jews had a homeland. it was a need to ensure that the new power structure the came out of world war 2 would be able to survive.

again, that is just one interpretation of events

8. Just where is the Jewish homeland?

depends whom you ask. a orthodox jew would point his finger right where the current state of israel is. a conservative would only point to jerusalem an be satisfied with the city. a reformed jew would look inwards an see that the homeland is with in us, a spiritual place that can only be reached through thought.

9. Why should the rest of the world care if the Jewish people have a homeland or not? Note I am not saying we shouldn't care, I am just perplexed as to why so many non-Jews care so much about Jewish people having a homeland.

they shouldnt. the world we live in has so many big fucking problems facing us, the status of a jewish state should be everyones last concern.

i think alot of Christians care because a jewish state is one of the pre reqs to the end of days.

10. The state of Israel. Is it legitimate, or not?

i dont think it is. but then again i dont think any state is legitimate. so uhh, yeah. if you look at the current pre reqs of being a state then i would say israel is indeed a state that has been made legitimate by 50+ years of existence plus the blessing of the UN. what ever that is worth.