loss of nationalism? So http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/03/news/economy/automakers_poll/ shows that 61% opposed the bailing out of auto industries. Is this a shocking number to anyone else?

Obviously I'm on the 39% other side but I always felt my stance was the majority. I hear people arguing about how those who want to bail out the auto industries only want it for national reasons. Yea you're godam right my reasons are national. I love this country and don't want to see century old car companies responsible for our early economic growth go down. Also believe it or not, I don't want to see millions of people unemployed because we dont want to pay 30 billion more in taxes (which isn't a lot compared to the bank bail out)

I just find it fascinating that this many people are against it.. Do you think this shows americans are caring less about the pride of our country? More so I'm amazed that 'analysts' on cnn are marginalizing reasons like mine and instead arguing how the bailout is not right business wise. I understand our economy sucks, but never before have I seen media figures and what appears to be Americans put business decisions over patriotic ones.

Do you guys think our country is becoming more isolated and less 'American'?

So basically your reason for not wanting the auto monoliths to go out of business is nostalgia?

So basically your reason for not wanting the auto monoliths to go out of business is nostalgia?

Nostalgia is the wrong term to try to attack my viewpoint. First off I wasn't even alive at the time ford and gm blossomed our country into what it is today. However I read about the history and how much ford revolutionized cars and the assembly line so he could sell them at economically viable prices. I don't want them to go out of business because they are the epitome of an American company. They've all been around for so long and are known to be a family company. Heck one reason why GM is in so much debt is because many believe they were to generous on the pensions and shouldnt have offered such great retirement plans. Believe it or not when people think of american companies, ford is one of them. Gm to probably. I can go on to talk about how if they file bankruptcy millions will lose their jobs but you already know this...

If we don't bail these companies out a piece of american culture will be lost forever. And Its not about bailing out companies that are old because believe me, I'd be happy to see Mcdonolds and lousy ass Pepsi fold. Its about cherishing and restoring a piece of culture


I really don't understand why my perspective is the least favorable.

This country is full of dumbasses. Democrats elect laws that mandate the lower and middle class (average) American FUCK THIS ECONOMY with their "entitlement" to loans they can't pay off and what do you know, when a viable solution to at least put some ease in these dire straits they're against it. It doesn't matter what these shit for brains think, they won't do anything about it if something against their interests is passed. Americans are the stupidest of the developed world, they only pick a side if it's cool. It was cool to hate Bush, gradually got cooler. If you're not with the herd you're a dumbass, a simpleton, a faggot. Whatever, I hope for a depression and really, only in my wildest dreams, a holocaust.

Fuck nationalism. The only reason the company has even been able to "stay afloat" for so long is because of nationalism. No one in their right mind should actually be buying these POS vehicles in the first place. Capitalism tends towards specialization and, I'm sorry, but these 3 have had enough time to either figure their shit out or drop out of the game. Let's face it, American companies have lost when it comes to automobiles and unless they drastically change both their product and image, the same unreliable crap is going to keep rolling off the line and all of the sane people will keep buying Japanese.

Fuck nationalism.

Pansy, a queer, less than a maggot.

61% oppose it because there fucking retards and listen to those fucking jew lawyers who tore the 3 CEO's apart.

Give them the fucking money but replace the whole board. I MEAN THE WHOLE THING and than I guarantee you they will be on the right track

i think it will be better in the long run to let the inefficient big three die off, rather than slow bleed them with bail outs. that is why i am not in favor of the bail out.

i also feel that letting the big three die will take down USA union power a notch. i feel that unions, while very important have been a big reason for the loss of us manufacturing jobs.

Do you guys think our country is becoming more isolated and less 'American'?

No. I do not drive/like American cars. If I don't drive an American car, I don't feel like I should pay extra money so all the people that do drive American cars can keep their warranties. This has nothing to do with nationalism.

If I don't use it, I shouldn't have to pay. It's that simple. Besides, most foreign auto companies are smarter and make better cars. It's not my fault GM and Ford have been pumping out SUVs and shitty vehicles that nobody wants. Blame the Big 3 for being behind the times.

NO MORE GODDAMN BAILOUTS!!!

Fuck nationalism. The only reason the company has even been able to "stay afloat" for so long is because of nationalism. No one in their right mind should actually be buying these POS vehicles in the first place. Capitalism tends towards specialization and, I'm sorry, but these 3 have had enough time to either figure their shit out or drop out of the game. Let's face it, American companies have lost when it comes to automobiles and unless they drastically change both their product and image, the same unreliable crap is going to keep rolling off the line and all of the sane people will keep buying Japanese.

I couldn't have said it better.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

The collective greed and irresponsibility of big business has got us in this mess, you want the people to now bail them out?

Fuck them.

As for the people who worked for the companies, something will eventually come their way. In a sense, it's their fault for neglecting local businesses and selling their souls to corporate giants for a few extra $$$.

If you need to pump money into something which can't survive on its own, you're going to just create a drain on society. A sustainable society is the way forward.

Is this a shocking number to anyone else?

Obviously I'm on the 39% other side but I always felt my stance was the majority. I hear people arguing about how those who want to bail out the auto industries only want it for national reasons. Yea you're godam right my reasons are national. I love this country and don't want to see century old car companies responsible for our early economic growth go down. Also believe it or not, I don't want to see millions of people unemployed because we dont want to pay 30 billion more in taxes (which isn't a lot compared to the bank bail out)

I am surprised that many people are that smart.

I haven't been to an auto show in more than 30 years. I don't care what that junk looks like. The laws of physics don't change year to year and people don't change shape.

There have been 200,000,000+ cars in this country since 1995. Americans have lost a minimum of FOUR TRILLION DOLLARS on the depreciation of automobiles since then but our economists don't talk about the depreciation of DURABLE CONSUMER GOODS so they don't collect the data and they don't tell us so we have no way of knowing the correct figure.

We are TRAINED to focus on the wrong thing. We should not concentrate on JOBS we should concentrate on NET WORTH. But the nit wit economists don't say accounting should be mandatory in the schools either.

DT

Nostalgia is the wrong term to try to attack my viewpoint. First off I wasn't even alive at the time ford and gm blossomed our country into what it is today. However I read about the history and how much ford revolutionized cars and the assembly line so he could sell them at economically viable prices. I don't want them to go out of business because they are the epitome of an American company. They've all been around for so long and are known to be a family company. Heck one reason why GM is in so much debt is because many believe they were to generous on the pensions and shouldnt have offered such great retirement plans. Believe it or not when people think of american companies, ford is one of them. Gm to probably. I can go on to talk about how if they file bankruptcy millions will lose their jobs but you already know this...

If we don't bail these companies out a piece of american culture will be lost forever. And Its not about bailing out companies that are old because believe me, I'd be happy to see Mcdonolds and lousy ass Pepsi fold. Its about cherishing and restoring a piece of culture


I really don't understand why my perspective is the least favorable.

So you're saying that they should be kept afloat just because they are cultural relics that make shitty, inefficient cars? The fact that Ford is a family company and how nice they are is nothing to do with this. If anything, it shows that they were little to profligate when it came to spending (granted it was on spoiling their employees) and shows bad decision making on their part. How about this, to satisfy you and all the other bleeding hearts we open up a museum on the big three and show off some of their cars and have a living history exhibit where the CEOs and vice presidents talk about how their companies nose-dived.

Also, Micky D's is a cultural institution, why do you think everyone is so fat?

61% oppose it because there fucking retards and listen to those fucking jew lawyers who tore the 3 CEO's apart.

Give them the fucking money but replace the whole board. I MEAN THE WHOLE THING and than I guarantee you they will be on the right track

Ooh the irony!

This country is full of dumbasses. Democrats elect laws that mandate the lower and middle class (average) American FUCK THIS ECONOMY with their "entitlement" to loans they can't pay off and what do you know, when a viable solution to at least put some ease in these dire straits they're against it. It doesn't matter what these shit for brains think, they won't do anything about it if something against their interests is passed. Americans are the stupidest of the developed world, they only pick a side if it's cool. It was cool to hate Bush, gradually got cooler. If you're not with the herd you're a dumbass, a simpleton, a faggot. Whatever, I hope for a depression and really, only in my wildest dreams, a holocaust.

You know, I thought your thread about animals was retarded, but I have to admit, I totally agree with your post. People allow the television and media to influence them way too much. People start thinking the need things that they really just want. What happened to the cheap starter house that you eventually sold to get a better home? Hell, what happened to living within one's own means, thinking ahead long term, and good old common sense?

I really think the next 20 years is do or die for America.

Fuck nationalism. The only reason the company has even been able to "stay afloat" for so long is because of nationalism. No one in their right mind should actually be buying these POS vehicles in the first place. Capitalism tends towards specialization and, I'm sorry, but these 3 have had enough time to either figure their shit out or drop out of the game. Let's face it, American companies have lost when it comes to automobiles and unless they drastically change both their product and image, the same unreliable crap is going to keep rolling off the line and all of the sane people will keep buying Japanese.

I usually agree with most of what you say, and the shit rolling out of Detroit is disgusting, but, as bad as it is, 1/10 of all jobs in the nation are involved in one way or another with the auto industry. Have you any idea how much job loss that would entail.

It would further antagonize the hemorrhaging job losses of this recession; something that would only drive us closer to a full-blown depression. We need the government to be sticking up for these mismanaged fucks, and help pull them out of their hole, otherwise, their "hole" will turn into a fucking crevasse that'll involve all of the nation. Take a look at steps the industry is taking:

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0812/gallery.detroit_brands/index.html
http://money.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/43925.html

i think it will be better in the long run to let the inefficient big three die off, rather than slow bleed them with bail outs. that is why i am not in favor of the bail out.

i also feel that letting the big three die will take down USA union power a notch. i feel that unions, while very important have been a big reason for the loss of us manufacturing jobs.

In general, I hate labor unions. Initially they're all for workers rights, but after a while, they just leech the industry they're involved in, and suffocate it slowly.

In general, I hate labor unions. Initially they're all for workers rights, but after a while, they just leech the industry they're involved in, and suffocate it slowly.

Over here labour unions were directly responsible for the failure of our national airline company, they called hundreds of hours of strikes, pickets and so on and made the firm inefficient.


As for the bail out, I'm glad it didn't go through the Senate, in a competitive environment you only survive if you're a viable economic entity, those firms made some bad decisions, failed to diversify their supply and it's just right that they pay the consequences.

Your main street grocery store doesn't get a bailout if it finds itself in dire economic conditions, it closes down.

I think most Americans were opposed to the auto bailout because they didn't understand some of the basics, thanks to the corporate media.

First, the automakers weren't asking for an additional bailout. They were asking for a share of the 850 billion+ that was already approved to go to Wall St. So, the choice was, do we take 30 billion or so and give it to the automakers or the banks. You didn't see FOX or CNN put it like that. Apparently, it's not in the corporate interest for people to realize that the money could go to an industry instead of a bank.

Second, it gave Congress a chance to make it look like they were opposed to bailouts. They know that people are pissed because they passed the Wall St. bailout even though most of their constituents were opposed. So now they make a big show out of grilling the auto execs and asking for plans, guarantees, etc. Something they should have done for the bank bailout. Now they can say that they're looking out for the taxpayer's money, but this is a lie, since the size of the bailout would not change whether they gave the money to the automakers or not. The only difference is, who gets the money.

I was very strongly opposed to the Wall St. bailout, still am, but I would rather see 30 billion go to help a manufacturing industry in the country that provides jobs than have the money go to a bank that may or may not loan it out. What good does it do to have banks with money to loan if people don't have jobs?

Over here labour unions were directly responsible for the failure of our national airline company, they called hundreds of hours of strikes, pickets and so on and made the firm inefficient.


As for the bail out, I'm glad it didn't go through the Senate, in a competitive environment you only survive if you're a viable economic entity, those firms made some bad decisions, failed to diversify their supply and it's just right that they pay the consequences.

Your main street grocery store doesn't get a bailout if it finds itself in dire economic conditions, it closes down.

You completely went over my head and off on a tangent here. A collapse of the Big Three will affect main street. As I iterated earlier, 1 out of every 10 jobs in this country exist to serve the auto industry, from salesmen, engineers and assemblypersons to miners and others.

We just can't allow that to happen. And for fucking pity's sake, follow my links.

You completely went over my head and off on a tangent here. A collapse of the Big Three will affect main street. As I iterated earlier, 1 out of every 10 jobs in this country exist to serve the auto industry, from salesmen, engineers and assemblypersons to miners and others.

We just can't allow that to happen. And for fucking pity's sake, follow my links.

So you're basically saying the only reason the auto industry should be kept strong is because it creates jobs? If it's kept strong, in the process, so much resources are going to be wasted on churning out more and more and more cars which realistically, nobody fucking needs. In the process, more and more people are going to feel like they need to buy more cars and plunge themselves further into debt.

There'll be poverty for a while, but it's like a drug addiction, there's bound to be a really fucking bad comedown after years of living in a hazy bubble where resources and credit are infinite. The sooner everyone comes back down to reality, the better.

The reality of the situation is, as long as there's people and the basic neccesities of life, then human effort can be used to create an economy, thus jobs. The people in the auto industry can make a living just from creating a service, why can't they create another service which is more relevant to today's world? If there's 1000 people in a town and 100 become unemployed, 10 could open a school, 10 could open a music venue, 10 could run a church, 10 could open a general store, 10 could transport goods, etc ,etc, as long as the people who provide the services all use their profits to support everybody else, a way of life will be formed.

The governments only purpose should be to protect the infrastructure, education and energy needs of the population to ensure that economies on local levels can form. All this money being wasted on bailouts and shit is a fucking disgrace. This money could re-educate thousands of people so they can find it easier to move on and find new jobs. All bailouts do is protect the fat cats at the top.

The money is not sustaining those fat cats. Well, it is, but that's not its only purpose. Those jobs need to be kept in place by whatever means necessary. The Industry, however, needs to change how it operates. It needs more efficient and modern cars to meet the demands of a changing demographic.

They need to be back on top of the heap. Of course, those jobs being lost have to be made up by other government programs, such as Obama's initiative, which is a good start.

The money is not sustaining those fat cats. Well, it is, but that's not its only purpose. Those jobs need to be kept in place by whatever means necessary. The Industry, however, needs to change how it operates. It needs more efficient and modern cars to meet the demands of a changing demographic.

They need to be back on top of the heap. Of course, those jobs being lost have to be made up by other government programs, such as Obama's initiative, which is a good start.

Your right, the industry does need to change, but in a way that cars last for longer and don't devalue so quickly, so that people don't feel pressurised to buy a new car every 3 years or so. It's pointless having more efficient cars when people buy new ones every 3 years: building a car uses up huuuuuuuuuuuuge amounts of resources, and the more resources you waste, the more fucked up you're going to be in the long run.

So instead of throwing money into preserving jobs which are going to be naturally lost in a few years, the auto industry needs to just cut their losses, and the money be spent on re-education now.

Your right, the industry does need to change, but in a way that cars last for longer and don't devalue so quickly, so that people don't feel pressurised to buy a new car every 3 years or so. It's pointless having more efficient cars when people buy new ones every 3 years: building a car uses up huuuuuuuuuuuuge amounts of resources, and the more resources you waste, the more fucked up you're going to be in the long run.

So instead of throwing money into preserving jobs which are going to be naturally lost in a few years, the auto industry needs to just cut their losses, and the money be spent on re-education now.

As sickening as the fact is, we live in a capitalist economy. Economies throughout history have collapsed when growth stops.

For example, the Roman economy was largely based on plunder, and after centuries of little to no expansion, their coffers dried up and they faded from existence.

Now, under our economic system, we function differently, but not totally. As long as consumers buy, the system is in place. Those products like cars, ipods and others are made under a pretense called planned obsolescence. They are made with the purpose of being phased out in a while, thus spurring the consumer to buy a new one.

As asinine as it may sound, that form of operation is vital. A responsible consumer who goes to work and makes purchases he will be able to pay will always be fine. Those who are there are because of their ignorance, and there will always be people like that, no matter how the market works.

My father has worked a stable, well-paying job throughout his life. He never splurges his paycheck, but he isn't a miser either. Every few years he buys himself a new vehicle, thus sustaining the economy while being fiscally responsible. And now, as he approaches old age, he will have a safe retirement fund to live off of until the day he dies. As much as I may be at odds with him, we need more people like him in the market.

Those domestic car companies have been going dodgy for a while. They're bleeding money to the unions while not giving a higher quality product.

If you make a shit product and charge an unreasonable price you will have problems. People like to get what they pay for. If they pay for a good car they should get one, if they get an average car at 'good car' prices there is a PROBLEM.

The auto industry should be left to either fail or reform itself but not now. right now the main priority is keeping people employed. had they asked for this bailout 2 years ago i would have been hell no but right things are too shitty to let another big industry fail (the other one being banking).

The only reason that the auto industry is being bailed out, is to maintain national security. If there were to be a major war in the future (which is likely), there would be an instantaneous need for mass production facilities to provide military vehicles of various sorts, and a trained staff to run those facilities. The big three are an integral block of this production, and the government will maintain there existence indefinitely to insure national security. If the big three went broke, and the staff dissipated throughout the US, there could be a wait time to get a production going, and this would have major affects on warfare. It's not about saving jobs, or saving old companies, it's about military strategics.

I disagree with the bailout entirely. Not because i think its a waste of money, or disagree with government intervention in the markets, but because the american car industry is a relic of the past. There has been almost no real innovation to come from the big three in twenty years. at a time when almost everyone is looking for more fuel efficient and alternative fueled cars, they produce high margin monsters while only playing lip service to any real innovation.

the discussion now is should these companies be allowed to survive? toyota showed us that these is a big demand for alternative fueled cars, that they can be made viable (the prius is now a standard on the roads). american car makers have been churning out fuel guzzling cars with no intention of ever looking to the future. concepts like global warming and peak oil have been completely ignored, and any steps taken to reduce emissions or reliance on oil have been shot down by their lobbyists. like spoilt children, they have ignored what the world has been demanding and producing the same old shit they have been for years.

R&D has been almost non existent. sure, they produce the occasional hydrogen concept car or a nice press release on how awesome the future will be, but they have no intention of ever changing. and why would they? R&D costs alot of money, true innovation can cost billions, shareholders don't want to spend money like that when everything is fine.

i'm not some environmentalist hippy, saying that all car companies should be dissolved to save the whales. it doesn't matter what you think about peak oil or global warming or the rest. what can't be argued that there is a long term shift happening in all markets. in a few years australia will have a carbon trading scheme, with total cuts of 5-15% being mandated. as well as the global consciousness, there is also the all to real problem of fuel prices. right now they are low, but it would be a fool who thinks that this is nothing but a blip on the graph. in two years a barrel of oil will be back at 150 and still climbing.

the idea, i suppose, was for the car companies to slowly adapt over the next decade, to start thinking seriously about actually giving the world what it wants instead of what has the highest margins. but then all *this* happened, and their funds have dried up and it's too late. what the government will be bailing out will be dinosaur equipment, making unrealistic cars that can never be sold in volume again. you may as well be buying a steam train factory.

these companies had their chance, they could have adapted and evolved, but they were afraid. bailing them out now will not encourage them to suddenly change, it will encourage greater conservatism, taking no risks at all, sticking to what they know and eventually being made completely obsolete. these companies should fail because they failed to innovate. bad business decisions along with questionable tactics does not inspire confidence.

the money should be spent on the car industry however. it should be spent on research, on smaller companies with plans. maybe a remnant of these companies can be salvaged into a real business, but this is what needs to happen. companies fail all the time, and just because a company has grown so large that people fear its removal is no excuse for propping up a relic. the cancer must be removed, no matter what the cause.

oh yeah, fuck nationalism.

http://i40.tinypic.com/29ol9ps.png

Nostalgia is the wrong term to try to attack my viewpoint. First off I wasn't even alive at the time ford and gm blossomed our country into what it is today. However I read about the history and how much ford revolutionized cars and the assembly line so he could sell them at economically viable prices. I don't want them to go out of business because they are the epitome of an American company.

If we don't bail these companies out a piece of american culture will be lost forever. And Its not about bailing out companies that are old because believe me, I'd be happy to see Mcdonolds and lousy ass Pepsi fold. Its about cherishing and restoring a piece of culture


I really don't understand why my perspective is the least favorable.

God you have a shitty argument.

Jesus.

Culture is not some godforsaken company you buy shit from.

The only reason that the auto industry is being bailed out, is to maintain national security. If there were to be a major war in the future (which is likely), there would be an instantaneous need for mass production facilities to provide military vehicles of various sorts, and a trained staff to run those facilities. The big three are an integral block of this production, and the government will maintain there existence indefinitely to insure national security. If the big three went broke, and the staff dissipated throughout the US, there could be a wait time to get a production going, and this would have major affects on warfare. It's not about saving jobs, or saving old companies, it's about military strategics.

If I was going to buy military vehicles I would probably get them built by someone who knows what they're doing.

If I was going to buy military vehicles I would probably get them built by someone who knows what they're doing.

Who else could mass produce vehicles for the army within North America? They're losing profits due to inflated labor costs, not their ability to build vehicles.

The people in the auto industry can make a living just from creating a service, why can't they create another service which is more relevant to today's world? If there's 1000 people in a town and 100 become unemployed, 10 could open a school, 10 could open a music venue, 10 could run a church, 10 could open a general store, 10 could transport goods, etc ,etc, as long as the people who provide the services all use their profits to support everybody else, a way of life will be formed.


If 100 autoworkers become unemployed the last feasible option would be to open a fucking store. No one will be able to get a bank loan they all are unemployed and have no steady stream of income. Besides the fact most probably don't save money(because who really does these days?) and that oh ya banks are even tighter on their loans now! Even if 10 band together to open a school do you realize how much money it will cost and the fact that it will take even longer for them to make a profit since its split between 10? And keep in mind that were experiencing an inflation which can only be fought by the fed raising interest rates in say a year or so. You also probably dont realize aggregate demand is low this year and the cheap gas prices show how much less people are consuming.

If 100 autoworkers become unemployed the last feasible option would be to open a fucking store. No one will be able to get a bank loan they all are unemployed and have no steady stream of income. Besides the fact most probably don't save money(because who really does these days?) and that oh ya banks are even tighter on their loans now! Even if 10 band together to open a school do you realize how much money it will cost and the fact that it will take even longer for them to make a profit since its split between 10? And keep in mind that were experiencing an inflation which can only be fought by the fed raising interest rates in say a year or so. You also probably dont realize aggregate demand is low this year and the cheap gas prices show how much less people are consuming.

Ok firstly, they're examples - it's not like I'm going to pour hours of my life into thinking out an in-depth plan as to what they could do.

The reality is, if there's 100 people who are unemployed, that's human effort which can be utilised, and if they work together, they can build an economy.

Inflation, interest rates, aggregate demand. Don't give me this fucking bullshit ripped from an economics textbook. The system is a fucking illusion designed to keep certain people influential. Money means absolutely nothing now: it's worth what your government says its worth. Start thinking in terms of resources: human and natural. If both exist and can be utilised sustainably, then a local economy can be built. Thinking in this sense has worked for thousands of years.

Who else could mass produce vehicles for the army within North America? They're losing profits due to inflated labor costs, not their ability to build vehicles.

Their vehicles are not as good quality as those made by many of the other manufacturers. Making an average or shoddy vehicle while bleeding money to unions and other stuff is the problem, not just unions and all of their associated bullshit.