Hey I dont post much but I do lurk around W&C moreso that the others.. LavaRed you seem like a cool dude, everybody respects you. I dig what you got going on haha.. All you other people seem very knowledgable and friendly for the most part so I guess this is the best place to come

Ive been think of buying either an AK47 or the ever-loved M4. Id just like to hear some pros and cons of the two and hear more feedback.

Most people say the AK is the 'most durable weapon evar' and all that but i'm not sure I buy into all that nonsense.. I am however more proficient with the AK and have used many different ones from random countries (czech, chinese etc) and know how to strip/clean/maintain it moreso that I do with the M4.

On the other hand, like the M4 alot. Ive used a few Bushmasters and Colts and had alot of fun shooting them, very accurate as well even at long distance (which is something id also like to take into consideration). Id want something that would accept an EOtech as well as other 'long range' scopes. I dont think an AK can do that, can it?

Ever since all those Obama nonsense and how said "assault weapons" are going to be banned, and all this NWO madness everywhere I just feel the need to beef up what I have and I think the next step is to purchase a solid weapon that I can rely on. When it all comes crashing down, i'm not fucking around.


Anybody have anything they can add? Suggestions?

When it all comes crashing down, i'm not fucking around.

And you are seriously going to consider the AR15 for an end-of-the-world situation? The end-game is what I am preparing for. Reliability over bells-and-whistles. I'll be getting a Saiga. Choice of cartridge is 5.56 because it will be cheap, is fairly powerful, is domestically produced, and is far lighter than the 7.62 NATO round.

There are AK side mounts that can accept scopes:
http://www.eastwave.ca/products/scopes/mountsksak.html
http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=39
https://www.gilbertsguns.com/store/products/category4/3407.html?ck_SID=871da55439ddbbcb08ddd4f6901

Well, thank you man. I'll go with the ARbecause of ammo availability, since you're in the US.
The AK is very durable and very good, with decent enough accuracy, but the AR will be good enough for both self defense and varminting.
Plus if you want choice of calibers you can get an AR lower and several uppers in diferent calibers, lengths, etc.
So go AR.
My 2 cents.

With an AR and mil issue gear, you could even look to the government to be on their side.

If you go for an AK, look at Kobra optics. They are similar to Eotech's, but there is a lot of speculation as to their durability longterm, etc. for whatever it's worth.

Personally, I enjoy a nice AR-15. A midlength is probably better than an M4 version due to the dwell time being easier on the rifle and with a little less recoil, but I doubt reliability will be an issue.

Ammunition is a concern right now because .223/5.56 will always be around, but lots of people are speculating that 7.62x39 might see restrictions on importation.

@ Argon: You dont think the AR is something to consider for an end-game situation? I figure most people would agree, maybe im wrong.. I always had the image of the AR being a very reliable weapon considering the military uses it and whatnot.

I forgot to mention that I shoot left handed (with rifles at least). I never really had a problem shooting a right handed weapon left handed, but do you think it would be a serious problem? In all my time shooting a right left handed I only had one instance where I caught some hot brass in my jacket collar.

Should I look into a left handed upper for whatever I buy? Is it much more money to do so?

Also, correct me if im wrong but AR's are chambered in .223/5.56 and AK's in 7.62x69? I remember shooting Wolf thru the AK and I think that was 7.62.. Not 100% on that sorry.. I hear the military is buying up most 5.56 and that the price has gone through the roof? Is this true?

edit: Im glad there are people who dont label me a nutcase for having an "end of the world"/survivalist mentality. Im not a tinfoil type guy like some people around here but I definitely feel as if something is going to happen in the near future and I should be prepared.

@ Argon: You dont think the AR is something to consider for an end-game situation? I figure most people would agree, maybe im wrong.. I always had the image of the AR being a very reliable weapon considering the military uses it and whatnot.

I forgot to mention that I shoot left handed (with rifles at least). I never really had a problem shooting a right handed weapon left handed, but do you think it would be a serious problem? In all my time shooting a right left handed I only had one instance where I caught some hot brass in my jacket collar.

Should I look into a left handed upper for whatever I buy? Is it much more money to do so?

Also, correct me if im wrong but AR's are chambered in .223/5.56 and AK's in 7.62x69? I remember shooting Wolf thru the AK and I think that was 7.62.. Not 100% on that sorry.. I hear the military is buying up most 5.56 and that the price has gone through the roof? Is this true?

edit: Im glad there are people who dont label me a nutcase for having an "end of the world"/survivalist mentality. Im not a tinfoil type guy like some people around here but I definitely feel as if something is going to happen in the near future and I should be prepared.

People who don't study history will call you a nutcase. Anyone who has read any type of recorded history will realise you'd have to be stupid to think something isn't likely to happen just as likely as it is to rain tomorrow.

My experiences with AR's are that they are generally very reliable. I own AR's and AK's. That said, .223 AK's and .223 AK bolts, barrels, etc. are not very common. If you're preparing for the endgame without spare parts, you're just silly.

The most common AK chambering is 7.62x39, and the most common AR chambering is .223/5.56x45. You can get either in all kinds of goofy calibers, with more options for the AR.

Right now I saw some left handed AR uppers for 650 versus the 600 for a righthanded. It's a group by and you'd be waiting awhile for it, but price shouldn't be too bad.

If you have a question about reliability, there are a couple videos over here: http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2032394&page=9

In the endgame spare parts aren't an issue. Take weapons and ammunition off a dead body.

I beg to differ. You know your particular weapon best, and thus should maintain it or be prepared to maintain it rather than exchanging it up for a suspect weapon. Why add other variables into the equation if you don't need to.

Fair point, but carrying spare weapons, parts, and large amounts of ammo is going to slow you down. Scrounging saves weight/space.

@ Argon: You dont think the AR is something to consider for an end-game situation? I figure most people would agree, maybe im wrong.. I always had the image of the AR being a very reliable weapon considering the military uses it and whatnot.

I forgot to mention that I shoot left handed (with rifles at least). I never really had a problem shooting a right handed weapon left handed, but do you think it would be a serious problem? In all my time shooting a right left handed I only had one instance where I caught some hot brass in my jacket collar.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/17/ak-lightning-bolt-left-hand-side-charging-handle/

Left handed charging handle for AK, if you want something like that. If I were to convert my Saiga to bullpup, I'd also want one of these.

Don't you think that the people on the ass end of nowhere choose the AK because it is exceptionally reliable? The US military already plays politics with soldiers lives, so they really don't give too big a shit if an M16 jams. We'd already have more reliable weapons if not for Colt lobbying to keep the M16 and the Pentagon dicking around with replacement weapons.

Sure, it's a reliable weapon if you can keep it clean. The problem is in an endgame scenario you don't have the luxury of always being able to keep your weapon clean. You also don't have the option of ammunition with good tolerances. The AK generally has no problem with crappy ammo or with dirt getting in the action.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/17/ak-lightning-bolt-left-hand-side-charging-handle/

Left handed charging handle for AK, if you want something like that. If I were to convert my Saiga to bullpup, I'd also want one of these.

Don't you think that the people on the ass end of nowhere choose the AK because it is exceptionally reliable? The US military already plays politics with soldiers lives, so they really don't give too big a shit if an M16 jams. We'd already have more reliable weapons if not for Colt lobbying to keep the M16 and the Pentagon dicking around with replacement weapons.

Sure, it's a reliable weapon if you can keep it clean. The problem is in an endgame scenario you don't have the luxury of always being able to keep your weapon clean. You also don't have the option of ammunition with good tolerances. The AK generally has no problem with crappy ammo or with dirt getting in the action.

Two things: 1. Why do the Philipines, Singapore, and Israel still use plenty of M16's? Various Special Operations groups use the M4 or M16 plenty, and yes they use the AK too (but mostly for plausible deniability behind enemy lines). Check the videos in the links I posted on the other thread before making claims about rifles you don't seem to have fired.

2. Ak's typically have loose clearances. Loose tolerances would make the gun explode. Nitpicking.

In the endgame...

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I would take an AK or M4.

For most hunting I would use an air rifle...Less weight to carry.

I would of course take an ak, but not too much ammo, only enough to use during a tight squeeze. Most of the game where I live is not huge, mostly birds/small rodents that could be killed with a pellet rifle.

Am I crazy?

Two things: 1. Why do the Philipines, Singapore, and Israel still use plenty of M16's? Check the videos in the links I posted on the other thread before making claims about rifles you don't seem to have fired.

2. Ak's typically have loose clearances. Loose tolerances would make the gun explode. Nitpicking.

Well, as far as I know, The Philippines was the location of a major US base, maybe naval? Not sure. They would want interoperability with the US of course. And weapons replacement is pretty expensive, is it not? Not to mention they are fighting in the jungles with US (and Aussie!) advisors against Muslim terrorists, and it is the weapon used by the SF of those countries.

Didn't Israel get given massive amounts m16s from the US government, as in, free of charge?

Not sure about Singapore.

But, the m16 family has been around for a long time, used by the major western superpower. Naturally there is going to be a massive market for accessories for these weapons. Very customisable. Due to this, you'd think many countries would stick with a weapon, for at least as long as the USA does. Too many addons can cancel out the negatives, not to mention it helps with joint training.

In the endgame...

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I would take an AK or M4.

For most hunting I would use an air rifle...Less weight to carry.

I would of course take an ak, but not too much ammo, only enough to use during a tight squeeze. Most of the game where I live is not huge, mostly birds/small rodents that could be killed with a pellet rifle.

Am I crazy?

Not yet, but if you are going to be fighting an endgame situation in a city and not the bush, living in dumpsters, eating rats and pigeons, having gestapo on the street eyeing everyone up for psychological cues as to whether they get edgy or not (you got edgy! time for interrogation to find out who you are!), you will definitely go that way.

Bangladesh uses them too.

And yes, Israel did receive a bunch essentially for free, but to have their elite forces using them while they made their own weaponry such as the Galil, and were surrounded by desert environment with countries using the AK-47?

Despite Russia's latest claims the US troops still ditch the M16 for the AK in places like Iraq (which is a blatant lie; the reason US troops were seen with AK's is because they were often confiscating these weapons and because tankers and other guys got the short end of the stick on weapons, and had to use their sidearms. We all know about how great we were with distributing body armor... same thing with weapons), plenty of countries prefer the M16, such as the SAS, the SASR, etc. at least as much as the AK, if not moreso.

Bangladesh uses them too.

And yes, Israel did receive a bunch essentially for free, but to have their elite forces using them while they made their own weaponry such as the Galil, and were surrounded by desert environment with countries using the AK-47?

In the Six Day War they used FN FALs. Not much more than cracking a few Palestinian skulls and other such bullshit has gone on since then, leaving little time for any problems to show up.

I appreciate all the responses you guys. No trolls, no bullshit.

I figured the AK was very durable for the exact reason Argon said.. Why do you think you always see all these 3rd World countries toting AKs of all variants? Even little kids have them over there.. Im sure theyve sat in rice paddies and all types of sand and muck and continued to feed.

I just fell as if an M4 would do better *in the long run*. Naturally spare parts would be available such as bolts and things and weapons would OBVIOUSLY be well maintained. Im not expecting to be in any full on combat situations, but obviously one of the two rifles is the way to go. I do like the customizability also, but I dont like crazy exotic 'tacticool' bullshit. A good stock, scope, and RIS rail is as far as I would want to modify.

Clearly im torn between the two... Hah


Does anybody have recommendations as where to purchase rifles online? Do they sell them ready to go, or do you have to buy an upper and a lower and have them shipped to a local dealer? This is actually my first purchase so i'm not really sure what im doing. My local dealerships don't have much of a selection honestly, I wasnt very impressed with the people working there/hanging around either.

My only other weapon is an old shotgun gifted to me that was my grandfathers some time ago. Not sure of the make offhand, im fairly sure its a Mossberg.


edit: Oh yea no offense but try and keep it on topic... Im just looking for pros and cons between the AK and the M4, IE: what should I buy and why. Anybody got photos of what theyre packin? I love seeing peoples gear, there isnt enough of that on &T

In the Six Day War they used FN FALs. Not much more than cracking a few Palestinian skulls and other such bullshit has gone on since then, leaving little time for any problems to show up.

Thailand also uses M16's and is phasing them out for Tavors, and Sri Lankan units use them as well.


Yes, they used FN FAL's, but claimed that they jammed too much in the sand, cut receiver grooves for more sand, and used Civil War cannons they got on loan from the Smithsonian. Oh, come on. Israel hasn't done much since the 6 day War? I suppose if you go that route, it's all relative. What about Sri Lanka? The Philipines? I'm not saying the M16 is a better weapon system than the AK, but you can't just write it off as superior when you haven't shot both. Have you shot either?

used Civil War cannons they got on loan from the Smithsonian.

wtf :confused:

Have you shot either?

I've shot my brother's PSL. I generally don't try to invite myself over to people's houses who I tenuously know to shoot valued possessions, so I have not touched an AR-15.

Also, that PSL was a POS at first. The cycled round wouldn't go all the way into breach and jammed the bolt carrier like a motherfucker. We cleaned out the breach with fine sandpaper and a brush and it still didn't solve the problem. We just said fuck it and put about 60 more rounds through it from the hip. Works flawlessly now.

Does anybody have recommendations as where to purchase rifles online? Do they sell them ready to go, or do you have to buy an upper and a lower and have them shipped to a local dealer? This is actually my first purchase so i'm not really sure what im doing. My local dealerships don't have much of a selection honestly, I wasnt very impressed with the people working there/hanging around either.

The way I understand it is that you only have to get the AR-15 lower shipped to an FFL holder. Everything else you can buy and have shipped to you. Firearms in general need to be shipped to an FFL holder if transported through the mail system.

Does anybody have recommendations as where to purchase rifles online? Do they sell them ready to go, or do you have to buy an upper and a lower and have them shipped to a local dealer? This is actually my first purchase so i'm not really sure what im doing. My local dealerships don't have much of a selection honestly, I wasnt very impressed with the people working there/hanging around either.


The upper and lower only matter for the AR. If you buy them separate, you can save a ten percent by not paying an excise tax. You can also buy either at gun stores, but since the election, prices have skyrocketed.

And sorry, I am known hardly to ever post pictures on Totse. If you want AR pics, go to Arfcom. Those guys love posting pics of their safequeens. What kind of AK's are you interested in? I have experience primarily with Romanian, Hungarian, and Yugoslavian.

wtf :confused:

Saw that one on the History Channel. The Israelis will use anything. Their tour guides use M1 carbines from back in the day. I've compared notes with some of my IDF buddies on IMT's and some of their techniques. A couple of my friends in the 82nd Airborne say they adopted their MOUT techniques after TIME magazine ran that article on how they cleared rooms and their death toll rose to something like 80 percent in a week.

The way I understand it is that you only have to get the AR-15 lower shipped to an FFL holder. Everything else you can buy and have shipped to you. Firearms in general need to be shipped to an FFL holder if transported through the mail system.

There are two ways to buy firearms. Private party, or through a dealer. You can buy longarms in different states from dealers. This isn't a problem unless a state specifically prohibits it. The lower receiver is the regulated firearm part on the AR. The receiver on the AK is the stamped sheet metal segment. Technically the AK upper receiver is the dust cover, but not all rifles have an upper receiver, and the terminology is used almost solely for the AR-15.

You probably won't save much money building AK's anymore due to the increase in price and decrease in availability of parts kits. I got mine before the barrel importation ban et al. With old prices, $100 receivers or $15 receiver flats, you could easily save at least $100 a gun building an AK. Of course, just this past year, I could have saved maybe $400 on AR's due to a special source I had that did a surplus run of complete kits sans the lower receiver. They sold out completely the weekend on the election, however.

wtf :confused:



I've shot my brother's PSL. I generally don't try to invite myself over to people's houses who I tenuously know to shoot valued possessions, so I have not touched an AR-15.

Also, that PSL was a POS at first. The cycled round wouldn't go all the way into breach and jammed the bolt carrier like a motherfucker. We cleaned out the breach with fine sandpaper and a brush and it still didn't solve the problem. We just said fuck it and put about 60 more rounds through it from the hip. Works flawlessly now.

If you haven't shot an AR-15 or M16, please don't act as though you know they are not reliable. As I've said, I own both AR's and AK's, and I've shot multiplicities of both. I've shot both of them in multiple calibers. Let the OP shoot both and then choose what he wants.

Bangladesh uses them too.

And yes, Israel did receive a bunch essentially for free, but to have their elite forces using them while they made their own weaponry such as the Galil, and were surrounded by desert environment with countries using the AK-47?

Despite Russia's latest claims the US troops still ditch the M16 for the AK in places like Iraq (which is a blatant lie; the reason US troops were seen with AK's is because they were often confiscating these weapons and because tankers and other guys got the short end of the stick on weapons, and had to use their sidearms. We all know about how great we were with distributing body armor... same thing with weapons), plenty of countries prefer the M16, such as the SAS, the SASR, etc. at least as much as the AK, if not moreso.

SF use whatever they want, depending on where they are and what they want to appear to be.

Of course most are going to use the m16 family, there are just so many snap on parts made for it, too easy.

SF use whatever they want, depending on where they are and what they want to appear to be.

Of course most are going to use the m16 family, there are just so many snap on parts made for it, too easy.

Exactly. It must have been the other thread, but I said they mainly seem to use the AK for false flag or plausible deniability reasons. Using an M4 helps because if it's not an AUG or SA80, it's less IDable.

Sri Lankan units use them as well.

*facepalm* That may not help your case any :D

Wow, this is the cutting edge of firearm refinement discussion. AK vs M16. Since this is never discussed, I'll add my opinion. Well I'll add what I consider pros and cons, then omit my conclusion. I'm not going to talk about how easy it is to take down/clean, because (not to be conceited or anything) I'm mechanically gifted and I can take apart, clean, and put back together a lot of different stuff with the same ease that most people who own AKs or ARs can. I also won't talk about ammo, because I feel the terminal ballistics of both rounds are adequate.

M16:

Pro: accurate due to excellent sights, quality manufacture and ergonomics. Safety, magazine, and trigger controls are placed exactly where they should be. Not a single rifle can beat the M16 in ergonomics. Extremely low recoil.

Con: DIRECT GAS IMPINGEMENT. It shits where it eats. This design may be responsible for it's inherent accuracy, but directing propellant gasses back into the action IMO is bad. FWIW the only other battle rifle to implement this concept is a French rifle. Magazines are thin aluminum with shitty followers. Magpul and others make better ones but they're spendy. Buffer tube going into the stock increases fragility.

AK:

Pro: Cheap, ubiquitous, and extremely reliable. Lightweight and extremely simple to use. Piston operation in concept increases reliability. Robust magazines. Robust everything.

Con: Safety is poorly designed. Loose tolerances may allow for increased shitty terrain capability, but accuracy suffers. Sights suck, but that's OK, whose trying to point shoot this any more than 300 yards anyway? It's not as friendly to optics as the M16. It's not suppressor friendly. I like drop free magazines moar, so rocking them in doesn't do it for me.

Here's the conclusion I said I wasn't going to give. EVERY FUCKING THING IS A TRADE OFF. This comes in every flavor of firearms. You can increase power at the cost of recoil (and maybe weight), reliability at the cost of accuracy, ergonomics at the cost of cost, it goes on and on.

So...


Good
Fast <------ Pick 2.
Cheap

You guys have it pretty well covered.

I will add that there are gas piston conversion kits for existing ARs. Worth it, IMO. Especially if you plan on using this gun a lot.

The AR is less reliable, however the availability of parts and acessories make it far more popular. And as you can see by current prices, they hold their value very well. Im seeing A2 models shot to hell, going for $1000.

My verdict: AR. If you cant afford it, get a good AK. But for christs sake, but something with a giant detachable magazine.

I have 2 ar15s I built. One is a dpms lower with an m&a upper. It was about 650$ and It has a burris xtream tactical speeddot red dot. The other one is a long bullbarrel, ff handguard, varmint config. It wears a weaver scope. It was about $1250. It is a J&t distributing upper with Ads lower(advanced defense systems) which is a local company.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/rp1111_2007/IMG_0022-1.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/rp1111_2007/IMG_0014.jpg

You guys have it pretty well covered.

I will add that there are gas piston conversion kits for existing ARs. Worth it, IMO. Especially if you plan on using this gun a lot.

.

You lose a little bit of accuacy with those kits.

My experiences with AR's are that they are generally very reliable. I own AR's and AK's. That said, .223 AK's and .223 AK bolts, barrels, etc. are not very common. If you're preparing for the endgame without spare parts, you're just silly.

The most common AK chambering is 7.62x39, and the most common AR chambering is .223/5.56x45. You can get either in all kinds of goofy calibers, with more options for the AR.

Right now I saw some left handed AR uppers for 650 versus the 600 for a righthanded. It's a group by and you'd be waiting awhile for it, but price shouldn't be too bad.

If you have a question about reliability, there are a couple videos over here: http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2032394&page=9

My ar15 carbine is just as reliable as my saiga. i have ran it straight without any lubricant and it kept on shooting.

Well, I've never really shot ARs all that much so I'm not going to make statements about them.

The AK on the other hand, well, here is my take on the AK as a SHTF rifle and just general SHTF ideas.

Ok, well, my personal AK hardly has any add ons to it as I believe Gabe Saurez said it best when he said the AK is "Too simple to be tactical".

The first thing I "did" to my AK was buy a bunch of magazines for it when Copes Distributing was having the 5 mags for $45 deal.

Then I added Choate synthetic handguards because, well, I dislike wood on guns.

Which is also why I added a KVAR sythetic buttstock.

But, a wood buttstock and wood handguards are good enough, if not better, for the fact that you can use the wood buttstock of an AK to beat someone to death with.

I added an AK74 style muzzle break to cut down on recoil, and believe me it works very well.

But if I could only have one accessory for my AK it would be the Meprolight Night Sights I put on it. They are an incredible improvement over the not so good factory sights.

That is absolutely the best $80 I've ever spent on any gun accessory.

It gives my AK a sight picture similar to my XD, allows me to pick up my sights easier, and has an adjustable rear sight.

With Wolf Military Classic FMJ the sights allow me to shoot honest to god 3" 5 shot groups at 100 yards.

I know that sounds unrealistic for a "bottom of the barrel" WASR 10/63, but it's true and I have no reason to lie.


And even with factory sights the AK is still capable of hitting a torso at 200 yards.


I think that in a SHTF situation an armed civilian is best left looking like an unarmed civilian.

If you are on foot dressed in BDUs and a tac vest and carrying your 11.5" AR15 topped with an ACOG and a PEQ unit you are much more likely to get stopped and disarmed (or shot) by military, law enforcement, or armed rioters after your $2000 rifle than the guy dressed in civilian clothing with a backpack full of survival gear and a folding stock AK in a tennis racket bag.


I feel it is best to go low profile than to dress up like you're going to an AR15.com photoshoot.


Oh and as a side note, if you are looking for AK optics I would go with a PK-01 red dot sight.

Think of it as the Russian Aimpoint.

I've heard that Kobras don't last too long (at least the AA battery ones don't).

Also, the PK-A is a nice red dot, except has an integral side mount and doesn't mount in line with the bore like the PK-01 does.


Or you could just get a BP-02 side mount (any other mount is either too high or not centered) and mount what optics you want too.


I would also check out the Larue Iron Dot as well.

I feel it is best to go low profile than to dress up like you're going to an AR15.com photoshoot.


Oh and as a side note, if you are looking for AK optics I would go with a PK-01 red dot sight.

Think of it as the Russian Aimpoint.

I've heard that Kobras don't last too long (at least the AA battery ones don't).

Also, the PK-A is a nice red dot, except has an integral side mount and doesn't mount in line with the bore like the PK-01 does.


Or you could just get a BP-02 side mount (any other mount is either too high or not centered) and mount what optics you want too.


I would also check out the Larue Iron Dot as well.Thanks man i didnt know they even had red dots for aks that attach to the side rail. i am getting one for my saiga. with the side rail it allows you to still use iron sights right?

I think that in a SHTF situation an armed civilian is best left looking like an unarmed civilian.

If you are on foot dressed in BDUs and a tac vest and carrying your 11.5" AR15 topped with an ACOG and a PEQ unit you are much more likely to get stopped and disarmed (or shot) by military, law enforcement, or armed rioters after your $2000 rifle than the guy dressed in civilian clothing with a backpack full of survival gear and a folding stock AK in a tennis racket bag.

I feel it is best to go low profile than to dress up like you're going to an AR15.com photoshoot.



Couldnt have said it better myself. All these people running around in full BDUs all 'milspecd' out are far, far more likely to either be robbed by people who want your weapons or simply shot an killed by law enforcement/military. Like I said a few pages back, im not looking for a 'kewl tactical weapon'. I just want a weapon thats going to function properly and serve me well in such a time.

@Ilovechonic - We have alot in common;) Nice rifles by the way, I like the second one you posted, thats pretty much what id like to own myself however the first with the longer barrel is very nice. How accurate would you say the second one is at about 100-150yds?

Couldnt have said it better myself. All these people running around in full BDUs all 'milspecd' out are far, far more likely to either be robbed by people who want your weapons or simply shot an killed by law enforcement/military. Like I said a few pages back, im not looking for a 'kewl tactical weapon'. I just want a weapon thats going to function properly and serve me well in such a time.

@Ilovechonic - We have alot in common;) Nice rifles by the way, I like the second one you posted, thats pretty much what id like to own myself however the first with the longer barrel is very nice. How accurate would you say the second one is at about 100-150yds?

atleast 1inch groups at 100 yds on the bench with the proper ammo. At 100ys the front sight blade almost covers the 100yd military target. standing it it is not going to group as well. Oh and i put a tapco m4 stock on it and an ergo grip. So it has a little more custom look. i plan on getting a free floating quad rail that connects to the flattop. Oh and mine is not m4 configuration. it is a CAR15. i prefer the rounder handguard.
The m4 config is pretty useless for a citizen. Pretty much all ar15s come with m4 feed ramps these days. Also the cut on the exterior part of the barrel for the m203 grenade launcher is completely useless for a citizen because you can't get one. unless you want to put a big bulky flare launcher that just makes the gun heavy. the flare launcher could easily be replaced with a smaller handheld flare launcher that would fit in a backpack. The 6 position stock on the m4 is the only thing that might be a little better but is not a necessity. the Car15 is cheaper than the m4,has a 5 position stock, round shaped handguard, and no m203 barrel cut.

the scoped rifle is a range/target gun and coyote killer.

AK-47 is the best hands down if someone who knows how to use a gun which I am sure most of you kids do not you would agree with me the m4 is accurate big fucking deal it is a horrible gun if someone is a good shot the AK will be more useful then the M4

I am sure most of you kids
HA! :p

AK-47 is the best hands down if someone who knows how to use a gun which I am sure most of you kids do not you would agree with me the m4 is accurate big fucking deal it is a horrible gun if someone is a good shot the AK will be more useful then the M4

This is a ignorant statment. you have obviously never shot a ar15 buddy. dont listen to this guy it is complete BS. this is probably someone basing his judgments of of counterstrike,call of duty, or another fps. if anything the ak is the best rifle for someone who doesnt know how to use a gun as they give them to little kids in 3rd world countries and they learn how to use them in 5 minutes. the 5.56 has a longer range and is more accurate and it has a higher velocity. you dont even give a reason why it is a horrible gun. now I own an akm variant also and they are not bad but i love my ar15 and I would much rather use that as a shtf rifle.

"Interests
I enjoy gaming"
this proves my point about you basing your judgments off of games. seriously dude, dont sit there and talk shit about gun you have nevee even shot, let alone held.

I will have to agree that the AK is decently accurate enough; what 5.56 SS109 said sounds about right.
But the AR weapons are a bit more accurate, maybe because the recoil is practically null, as opposed to some slight one on the AK.

I will have to agree that the AK is decently accurate enough; what 5.56 SS109 said sounds about right.
But the AR weapons are a bit more accurate, maybe because the recoil is practically null, as opposed to some slight one on the AK.

well the 5.56 round is just more accurate. the bigger/heavierand slower 7.62 round coming out of that 39mm case is just not as fast as that smaller and faster 5.56. the 7.62 has more surface area so i imagine it has more drag.
sure the ak is good enough to hit a sillouette. But the 5.56 will perform even better accuracy wise though it may take 1 or two extra hits to make the kill.

well the 5.56 round is just more accurate. the bigger/heavierand slower 7.62 round coming out of that 39mm case is just not as fast as that smaller and faster 5.56. the 7.62 has more surface area so i imagine it has more drag.
sure the ak is good enough to hit a sillouette. But the 5.56 will perform even better accuracy wise though it may take 1 or two extra hits to make the kill.

Totally. In all seriousness tho, both of these weapons will perform admirably under SHTF. So either is a good choice. The issue boils down to personal preference, therefore.

The AR is more serviceable from a logistics standpoint, plus lighter and more ergonomical.

The AK is more rugged, simpler and cheaper.

Thats about it. I'd choose the AR for logistics reasons, but only if I have to choose one.
OP, get one of each. Its quite worth it.

Both guns will shoot minute of human.

Im sorry LR but how is an M4 not simple, hot air rushes through an empty tube and pushes the bolt backwards, and a spring pushes it forward stripping off a new round, the most complicated part is the cam pin. Do you not like all those little lugs?

Totally. In all seriousness tho, both of these weapons will perform admirably under SHTF. So either is a good choice. The issue boils down to personal preference, therefore.

The AR is more serviceable from a logistics standpoint, plus lighter and more ergonomical.

The AK is more rugged, simpler and cheaper.

Thats about it. I'd choose the AR for logistics reasons, but only if I have to choose one.
OP, get one of each. Its quite worth it.

I definetly agree with your last sentence. And that about sums up the thread right there /thread.
Im sorry LR but how is an M4 not simple, hot air rushes through an empty tube and pushes the bolt backwards, and a spring pushes it forward stripping off a new round, the most complicated part is the cam pin. Do you not like all those little lugs?That is in simple terms.
The ak is pretty much equally complicated as the ar15/m16.
And we need to quit saying m4, the m4 is just a configuration of the ar15/m16.

Thanks man i didnt know they even had red dots for aks that attach to the side rail. i am getting one for my saiga. with the side rail it allows you to still use iron sights right?

The only thing I can say for certain is the PK-A will allow you to see your irons, as it is mounted off to the left.

The PK-01 uses rings that angle in from the side to center the red dot sight over the bore and I believe that that would allow a gap wide enough to see your sights through.

I'm not certain though.

But I believe co-witness is over rated anyways.

I mean, if your AK optic fails just flip the lever and ditch it :D

That is in simple terms.
The ak is pretty much equally complicated as the ar15/m16.
And we need to quit saying m4, the m4 is just a configuration of the ar15/m16.

Both are guns, function correctly, and are reloaded by gas blowback..... and thats pretty much where the design and mechanical similarities end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irykjLjuKo8&feature=related

Hey, I can field strip a PSL in less than 15 seconds and I was a virgin at it.

Oh, and a few notes I forgot to add.

For a civvie SHTF rifle the AK is much more concealable because it's stock doesn't house any mechanisms that operate the rifle.

Therefore it is much easier to pack or hide because you can add a true folding wire stock to it which makes in much shorter than a rifle equipt (sp?, lol I'm not on Firefox) with a collapsable stock.

Also, Martin Fackler showed that Yugo 7.62x39mm FMJ fragments earlier and more violently than 55gr 5.56mm FMJ.


So, that not only means that the 7.62x39 is better than penetrating hard cover than the 5.56, but that (with the right loading) it is a "better" man stopper.

Both are guns, function correctly, and are reloaded by gas blowback..... and thats pretty much where the design and mechanical similarities end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irykjLjuKo8&feature=related

Hey, I can field strip a PSL in less than 15 seconds and I was a virgin at it.

i wasnt saying they were similarly designed. Just saying they are both not exactly simple.
The only thing I can say for certain is the PK-A will allow you to see your irons, as it is mounted off to the left.

The PK-01 uses rings that angle in from the side to center the red dot sight over the bore and I believe that that would allow a gap wide enough to see your sights through.

I'm not certain though.

But I believe co-witness is over rated anyways.

I mean, if your AK optic fails just flip the lever and ditch it :Di was thinking it was higher but i guess it would be pretty damn high to be higher than the fron sight post.

Just saying they are both not exactly simple.

That's not the same thing as saying "they are pretty much equally as complicated." :p

Neither gun is as simple as, say, a revolver, but one gun is much more complicated than the other.

And I believe the AK could be cleaned with a urine soaked gym sock.

Can anyone say the same about the AR?

:D

That's not the same thing as saying "they are pretty much equally as complicated." :p

Neither gun is as simple as, say, a revolver, but one gun is much more complicated than the other.

NOTHING is more complicated than a wheel gun man!

NOTHING is more complicated than a wheel gun man!

I think it's too funny to change.

Double action revolvers tend to be devilishly complicated. The side plate should have a "No user serviceable parts inside" sticker on it. People only think they're simple because they're dead easy to use and to clean. Inside they look like a pocket watch.

I can strip a Glock down to the smallest part, clean it well, and reassemble it [properly] in well under an hour. Prolly do it in half that if I'm not picky about cleaning. An AR might take longer, and require some tools. Riveted AKs simply don't break down that far. If I need the internals of a revolver worked on, I'm finding a gunsmith. They make Ruger Mk IIIs look easy to put back together. If you want simple, get a break-action gun, or maybe a direct blowback SMG.

Every third-world country uses AKs because they're convenient, not because they're superior. They've been produced by most of the eastern hemisphere for half a century. They're exceedingly cheap to produce and simple to operate.

Everyone complains that ARs are high-maintenance and failure-prone. The initial runs were. Many of the problems were addressed. No one seems to remember that the AK design underwent a fairly thorough overhaul after its first decade in service, too. As for the direct-impingement issues, you're going to have to fire thousands of rounds before gas fouling in the receiver causes a malfunction [try that in your ultra-simple revolver :p]. That doesn't happen in the typical SHTF situation. If you're going through that much ammo, you need a machine gun, not an assault rifle.

To illustrate my initial point, let's look at an exploded view of a Colt Python and a Glock:

http://www.e-gunparts.com/images/schematic/0660zPYTHON.jpghttp://www.e-gunparts.com/images/schematic/2440z17.jpg

Can you count, engineer-boy? :D

I see an inflated count due to sights, yes?

Can we not mention Ruger MkIII's? I just recently scratched the polymer grip of a brand new 22/45, straight from the box one trying to mallet the damn mainspring housing back in there. I am tempted NEVER to open one back up again.

Edit- well, to be honest, I didn't ding the grip, but I left it in the room with someone "helpful" so I am partially to blame.

Double action revolvers tend to be devilishly complicated. The side plate should have a "No user serviceable parts inside" sticker on it. People only think they're simple because they're dead easy to use and to clean. Inside they look like a pocket watch.

I can strip a Glock down to the smallest part, clean it well, and reassemble it [properly] in well under an hour. Prolly do it in half that if I'm not picky about cleaning. An AR might take longer, and require some tools. Riveted AKs simply don't break down that far. If I need the internals of a revolver worked on, I'm finding a gunsmith. They make Ruger Mk IIIs look easy to put back together. If you want simple, get a break-action gun, or maybe a direct blowback SMG.

Every third-world country uses AKs because they're convenient, not because they're superior. They've been produced by most of the eastern hemisphere for half a century. They're exceedingly cheap to produce and simple to operate.

Everyone complains that ARs are high-maintenance and failure-prone. The initial runs were. Many of the problems were addressed. No one seems to remember that the AK design underwent a fairly thorough overhaul after its first decade in service, too. As for the direct-impingement issues, you're going to have to fire thousands of rounds before gas fouling in the receiver causes a malfunction [try that in your ultra-simple revolver :p]. That doesn't happen in the typical SHTF situation. If you're going through that much ammo, you need a machine gun, not an assault rifle.

To illustrate my initial point, let's look at an exploded view of a Colt Python and a Glock:

http://www.e-gunparts.com/images/schematic/0660zPYTHON.jpghttp://www.e-gunparts.com/images/schematic/2440z17.jpg

Can you count, engineer-boy? :D

Parts count notwithstanding, just the existence of that big V spring gives it +50 unreliability. Two V springs, well...
I dare not think what a good amount of sand can do in there either.
I prefer autos too. But you can't deny that in a serious self defense situation, where the first four shots should count, the ability to bring a new round to bear with a pull of the trigger, should a malfunction occur, presents some serious defensive value.

Can we not mention Ruger MkIII's? I just recently scratched the polymer grip of a brand new 22/45, straight from the box one trying to mallet the damn mainspring housing back in there. I am tempted NEVER to open one back up again.

Edit- well, to be honest, I didn't ding the grip, but I left it in the room with someone "helpful" so I am partially to blame.
QFT I have one of those and it is a BITCH to reassemble.

On the other hand, I was never dumb enough to try to mallet the mainspring in there. I've taken many a mallet to the frame to get the receiver back onto the grip, though. If you don't do it hard enough you can go through the reassembly process only to find the last step won't work. It's probably a good thing that the gun won't fire disassembled because it's enough to make you want to use it to perforate your head.

I've got it down to a science now, though. Takes me only a couple minutes to take down and clean these days. However, it sure could be a lot less complicated. Damn that Bill Ruger and his asshole engineers.

Would people like it if I posted a takedown video to explain all the secrets for the common layman?

Anyone ever try to run motor oil for lube in their Ar?

Anyone ever try to run motor oil for lube in their Ar?
How does it work?

How does it work?

Oh i havnt tried. but i am sure it would work. i use motor oil to lube everything. except for sexual purposes.

Synthetic oil works very well on guns. I havent tried to go above 10w30 though.

How does it work?

I'm pretty sure it would work well for an AK-47. Of course, that's if you don't have a piss soaked sock lying around. :D

Oh i havnt tried. but i am sure it would work. i use motor oil to lube everything. except for sexual purposes.

How did you know I was going to ask that?:eek::o:p

Synthetic oil works very well on guns. I havent tried to go above 10w30 though.

Well I know some guys that took some motor oil mean't for diesel engines and mixed just a little with CLP and put it in a .50 Cal. Heh, the armorer yelled at them because it was an unauthorized lubricant in their weapon. Although I did hear it worked extremely well. They could've been exagerrating though.

I prefer a cheap moly grease for the moving parts. Doesn't work out of the rails and slots like oil does.

Well I know some guys that took some motor oil mean't for diesel engines and mixed just a little with CLP and put it in a .50 Cal. Heh, the armorer yelled at them because it was an unauthorized lubricant in their weapon. Although I did hear it worked extremely well. They could've been exagerrating though.

CLP sucks in everything, especially machine guns. You saturate the gun in the crap, then while shooting it burns off and burns the shit out of your eyes, then cooks completely off shortly after.

The motor oil dosent break down as much as the gun continues to get hotter.

motor oil mean't for diesel engines

ZDP is an excellent lubricant for metal-on-metal contact.

Unfortunately the ZDP content in motor oils is already leaning towards zero, even for diesel oils. I got lucky and my local Wal Mart doesn;t sell to many of the Rotella oils so they had plenty of the old formula.

CLP sucks in everything, especially machine guns. You saturate the gun in the crap, then while shooting it burns off and burns the shit out of your eyes, then cooks completely off shortly after.

The motor oil dosent break down as much as the gun continues to get hotter.

I agree about CLP. I believe its shit and I'd rather use WD-40 than that shit. Our supply guy was able to get a hold of dry lube, so that what we use. It works a helluva lot better. I hate CLP cause all it does is gunk up easily.

I agree about CLP. I believe its shit and I'd rather use WD-40 than that shit. Our supply guy was able to get a hold of dry lube, so that what we use. It works a helluva lot better. I hate CLP cause all it does is gunk up easily.

How about Lithium grease with teflon? Its supposed to stick there up to 200 deg. Celsius.

So, just curious...( I don't know anything about guns), how would a 9mm smg fare against an a.r in real life situation ??

Why is an a.r your first choice for a shtf scenario ??

Close in you'd probably want the 9mm. Far awayish you'd probably want the AR.

So, just curious...( I don't know anything about guns), how would a 9mm smg fare against an a.r in real life situation ??

Why is an a.r your first choice for a shtf scenario ??

Is the other guy wearing a bulletproof vest? I'd say the 9mm would be better because you are putting down more lead, as long as you can put that lead in your foe.

Is the other guy wearing a bulletproof vest? I'd say the 9mm would be better because you are putting down more lead, as long as you can put that lead in your foe.

Subguns don't tend to reliably penetrate body armor, depending on what level it is, but rifles tend to zip bullets right through unless you're wearing level III SAPI trauma plates.

So, just curious...( I don't know anything about guns), how would a 9mm smg fare against an a.r in real life situation ??

Why is an a.r your first choice for a shtf scenario ??

Rifles are much more powerful than handguns or pistol caliber carbines. Who wins kind of depends on who gets shot where/first.

Why an AR? It's the most common rifle in America, ammo is abundant as are spare parts. Most people know how to use it pretty well. It might look more "good guy" than an AK because we're used to seeing our soldiers and police carry them around.

Well, that's what I was getting at. My second sentence simply assuming that the other guy was unarmored.

Subguns don't tend to reliably penetrate body armor, depending on what level it is, but rifles tend to zip bullets right through unless you're wearing level III SAPI trauma plates.

But in a shtf scenario,....like when people went around rioting and looting, it's hard to imaging a bunch of looters would came in a lv3 or dragonskin or w/e....right ?

Rifles are much more powerful than handguns or pistol caliber carbines. Who wins kind of depends on who gets shot where/first.

Which is why I think that in city-scape, smg might be better than an assault rifle....they're faster and lighter. And like we all know, shtf scenarios are more likely to start in the city rather than in the country....right ??

Why an AR? It's the most common rifle in America, ammo is abundant as are spare parts. Most people know how to use it pretty well. It might look more "good guy" than an AK because we're used to seeing our soldiers and police carry them around.

Sorry,....my bad. Shouldn't have used the acronym. When I said a.r I meant assault rifles and not AR-15. Like why people would prefer to have an assault rifle instead of smg as they are heavier, bigger and if you're going to say...escape from the city to the country, be a bitch to carry with all the ammos and bulky mags....

Unless of course, most of who prefers assault rifle are already living in the country or a farm maybe ..??

I understand your point why AR-15 is the preferred assault rifles tho....

But in a shtf scenario,....like when people went around rioting and looting, it's hard to imaging a bunch of looters would came in a lv3 or dragonskin or w/e....right ?
Probably not, but you never know. The NOPD had many officers in body armor with department issue weapons protecting drug shipments and looting during Katrina.


Which is why I think that in city-scape, smg might be better than an assault rifle....they're faster and lighter. And like we all know, shtf scenarios are more likely to start in the city rather than in the country....right ??

1. They really aren't that much lighter than a lot of imtermediate-caliber rifles, and rifles have better range and much better stopping power. Stopping power is key. Besides, you never know if you'll have to take a longer-range shot.


2. I would agree that SHTF is probably going to be more pronounced in the city.
Sorry,....my bad. Shouldn't have used the acronym. When I said a.r I meant assault rifles and not AR-15. Like why people would prefer to have an assault rifle instead of smg as they are heavier, bigger and if you're going to say...escape from the city to the country, be a bitch to carry with all the ammos and bulky mags....


If you're going to carry a longarm, you might as well make it one worth carrying. If you're packing a rifle without a sling, you missed out on some basic fundamentals. A sling is necessary for a rifle. It's the holster equivalent of a handgun, only for a rifle. That and the relative weight of ammunition is worth it considering how much powerful it is than pistol ammunition. If you have a chest rig or similar, you won't notice the weight nearly as much as one would think. Then again, I'm not expecting most people to rush out with a 220 or so round battle loadout.

In a survival situation, you are not going to be looking for engagements, that's a fast way to die, you are probably going to want to avoid them at all cost, so longer range shouldn't be an issue, unless you are fighting a war and looking for targets more so than fighting to survive.

What's the weight of a .223 round compared to a 9mm?

If someone gets shot in the chest with a bullet that doesn't penetrate armour, doesn't mean they're gonna still be standing. Think broken ribs and the wind knocked out of you.

In a survival situation, you are not going to be looking for engagements, that's a fast way to die, you are probably going to want to avoid them at all cost, so longer range shouldn't be an issue, unless you are fighting a war and looking for targets more so than fighting to survive.

What's the weight of a .223 round compared to a 9mm?

If someone gets shot in the chest with a bullet that doesn't penetrate armour, doesn't mean they're gonna still be standing. Think broken ribs and the wind knocked out of you.

Adrenaline will keep you going. Bruises and cracked ribs will be damned.

Also, long range shooting may be necessary in rural areas where you can kill traspassers and hunt. You can also kill from afar if the need arises. Lord knows food and water aren't going to find themselves.

I picked up a .223 last week and it was fairly light. IIRC, it was lighter than these 115 gr brass-cased 9mm rounds I have.

In a survival situation, you are not going to be looking for engagements, that's a fast way to die, you are probably going to want to avoid them at all cost, so longer range shouldn't be an issue, unless you are fighting a war and looking for targets more so than fighting to survive.
Looking for engagements is irrelevant. Katrina situations found people firing on helicopters intended to rescue people. Sometimes areas like hospitals were engaged from a distance, and there was plenty of open water. I'd rather have a rifle and not need it than something else and need more.

What's the weight of a .223 round compared to a 9mm?

I don't have an appropriate scale here, surprisingly. I'll try and weigh it later today.



If someone gets shot in the chest with a bullet that doesn't penetrate armour, doesn't mean they're gonna still be standing. Think broken ribs and the wind knocked out of you.

Of all people, I am especially aware of this, but if you want to shoot someone with a bullet that isn't likely to penetrate, go ahead. I'll take the one that is, as penetrating vital organs or CNS is the only guaranteed way to incapacitate someone within a useful period of time. I prefer bullet wounds to contusions and maybe a few broken ribs.

Yeah, if you work in a hospital or fly helicopters that would suck. If you are just trying to leave town to come back later and plan action (maybe a weapons cache somewhere also?), it wouldn't suck as bad.

Can you carry more 9mm based on space (forget weight) compared to 5.56?

Yeah, if you work in a hospital or fly helicopters that would suck. If you are just trying to leave town to come back later and plan action (maybe a weapons cache somewhere also?), it wouldn't suck as bad.

Can you carry more 9mm based on space (forget weight) compared to 5.56?

Possibly. The 9mm is about the same thickness at the rear than a 5.56 and half as long. Weight- wise, they're about the same; the 9mm may weigh a tad more.

If I remember right, the AR15 weighs a little less than most subguns. UZI, MP40, M50, M3, etc, all weight in at 7-10 lbs; AR-15 weighs in at around 5-7lbs. A subgun loses any real advantage it has if it can only be had semi-auto. The AR-15 makes an excellent semi-auto rifle.

IMHO, the subgun has very little defensive value in the situations a civilian is likely to encounter. Primarily because of being restricted to semi-auto only. An SMG's place is for QCB or as a PDW, and usually one that can be mass-produced cheaply. They are more of a novelty item for civilians, if you will.
That said, any gun is better than no gun. Even a Jennings Auto in .25 ACP.

Yeah, if you work in a hospital or fly helicopters that would suck. If you are just trying to leave town to come back later and plan action (maybe a weapons cache somewhere also?), it wouldn't suck as bad.

Can you carry more 9mm based on space (forget weight) compared to 5.56?

What if you go to the hospital for whatever reason (medical, evac, etc.) or find yourself trying to hitch a helo ride out of town?

At a tactical standpoint when your breaking down doors and how the common drug dealer ain't gonna have a vest a SMG is perfect. But even then they are beginning to become somewhat outdated. You can get pretty short AR's now. I always thought about buying the pistol AR in 5.56 and just throwing a collapsible buttstock on them, but I don't know if that would effect the pistol status of it and turn it into a short barreled rifle. In my opinion unless your making Colombian drug deal and need the protection, you won't need to walk around with a conceal SMG or rifle. Just stick to a pistol, its more practical.

In a SHTF situation your likely going home to get family anyways. Like most people said, your likely trying to avoid a firefight. All the pistol will do is buy you time till you can get home and get better tools and equipment. Plus concealing a pistol isn't as bulky as a Uzi and you won't to go through a 30 round magazine in under a minute anyways.

At a tactical standpoint when your breaking down doors and how the common drug dealer ain't gonna have a vest a SMG is perfect. But even then they are beginning to become somewhat outdated. You can get pretty short AR's now. I always thought about buying the pistol AR in 5.56 and just throwing a collapsible buttstock on them, but I don't know if that would effect the pistol status of it and turn it into a short barreled rifle. In my opinion unless your making Colombian drug deal and need the protection, you won't need to walk around with a conceal SMG or rifle. Just stick to a pistol, its more practical.

In a SHTF situation your likely going home to get family anyways. Like most people said, your likely trying to avoid a firefight. All the pistol will do is buy you time till you can get home and get better tools and equipment. Plus concealing a pistol isn't as bulky as a Uzi and you want to go through a 30 round magazine in under a minute anyways.

^
This.

SMGs suck unless you are playing Rainbow 6

Yea they work OK inside. But once you leave that house you are stuck being able to shoot across the street and thats it.

Ive seen 10.5 inch m4s do the job at 300 meters. You could probobly shoot further with them, but really unlikelt to get a first round hit.

Light weight just isnt going to happen. My m4 weighs in at 12lbs ready to go.

There is no way of knowing how somebody will react to pain/ injury. Ive seen tough guys friends cry from a scratch, and "wuss" guys continue fighting after taking 7.62x39 to the chest. Its always different.

Probably not, but you never know. The NOPD had many officers in body armor with department issue weapons protecting drug shipments and looting during Katrina.

I see your point there. I was imagining a more urbanized shtf, like an imaginary day while having dinner in an apartment, the tv announced a shocking news that a certain president lost his bid for a 2nd term...due to certain issues....and all hell broke loose...(a sudden and unexpected shtf) and the city turned a warzone....

and in close range and under somewhat panic attack, people are more like to aim for the head and just pull the trigger till the mag is empty...

1. They really aren't that much lighter than a lot of imtermediate-caliber rifles, and rifles have better range and much better stopping power. Stopping power is key. Besides, you never know if you'll have to take a longer-range shot.

Yeah...I guess so. But having heard of rumors that a 5.56 almost always went right through someone without any immediate effect somewhat makes me curious. Like I said, I don't know anything about guns....

Like how effective would an assault rifle would stop a bunch of angry mob that burst into your house trying to attack you, I know it serves well out in the open.....so which one of them is sort of like a good all-rounder ??

A 12gauge would look nice for this kind of situation, but then it's almost useless elsewhere...so the there's s-machine gun...and assault rifle..

2. I would agree that SHTF is probably going to be more pronounced in the city.


If you're going to carry a longarm, you might as well make it one worth carrying. If you're packing a rifle without a sling, you missed out on some basic fundamentals. A sling is necessary for a rifle. It's the holster equivalent of a handgun, only for a rifle. That and the relative weight of ammunition is worth it considering how much powerful it is than pistol ammunition. If you have a chest rig or similar, you won't notice the weight nearly as much as one would think. Then again, I'm not expecting most people to rush out with a 220 or so round battle loadout.

But say, if you need to evacuate together with your family of four or five, to somewhere "safe", would you still prefer assault rifle and if so,....how far can you* travel on foot, and how much supply (ammunition alone, not including water/food) can you carry ?

*assuming you are just an average joe family guy and probably a lil bit overweight and not some super soldier....

Also I have seen some of the iraqi "minor combat" among them selfs in the city (from youtube) with ak's but it didn't seems to me like assault rifles are doing much, it's like after a while...pretty much everyone is still alive and well and still shooting. So although assault rifles have the range, but in the hands of an average civilian.....didn't seem to be doing much.

Just curious.

SMGs suck unless you are playing Rainbow 6

Yea they work OK inside. But once you leave that house you are stuck being able to shoot across the street and thats it.

Ive seen 10.5 inch m4s do the job at 300 meters. You could probobly shoot further with them, but really unlikelt to get a first round hit.

Light weight just isnt going to happen. My m4 weighs in at 12lbs ready to go.

There is no way of knowing how somebody will react to pain/ injury. Ive seen tough guys friends cry from a scratch, and "wuss" guys continue fighting after taking 7.62x39 to the chest. Its always different.

dude that is really heavy. My 24inch bullbarrel ar15 weighs 12lbs.

dude that is really heavy. My 24inch bullbarrel ar15 weighs 12lbs.

I assume its the extra equipment the army uses on theirs. My stock M16A1 weighs 5ish pounds unloaded.

@ Methmatician: The assault rifle is the halfway house or all-rounder between SMG's and Battle Rifles. For real long range stuff, a rifle in .308 and up will do, but these are generally reputed to be somewhat hard to control on Full Auto (I've never had trouble controlling my FAL, but my being overweight surely is the reason).
Like I said previously, the SMG was concocted as a way to bring a heavy amount of firepower cheaply and easily into a lot of soldiers. But once the Assault Rifle came into play, the niche for the SMG has gotten quite small.

If the whole truth be told, scatterguns have done it for civilians ever since firearms have existed. And even Mr. Supersoldier with the Dragonskin armor will have several broken ribs from a direct hit by 9 balls of 00 ball.

I just bought a few boxes of slugs and 00 buck to save. and 200 rds of 5.56.

I have shot both of those guns and I am a pretty well trained shot I am a sniper in the Canadian armed forces and my vote is with the Ak 47 its better all around

In a shtf situation i would take my ar15 over my AK.

I see your point there. I was imagining a more urbanized shtf, like an imaginary day while having dinner in an apartment, the tv announced a shocking news that a certain president lost his bid for a 2nd term...due to certain issues....and all hell broke loose...(a sudden and unexpected shtf) and the city turned a warzone....

and in close range and under somewhat panic attack, people are more like to aim for the head and just pull the trigger till the mag is empty...

And they're likely to miss :-). Especially indoors in a confrontation, you are probably only going to score COM hits on a moving target that fires back. We saw it all the time in training.



Yeah...I guess so. But having heard of rumors that a 5.56 almost always went right through someone without any immediate effect somewhat makes me curious. Like I said, I don't know anything about guns....

Depends on the ammo, the situation, the barrel length. No matter what stories you hear about what rifle du jour sucks, you hear more about the handgun.

Like how effective would an assault rifle would stop a bunch of angry mob that burst into your house trying to attack you, I know it serves well out in the open.....so which one of them is sort of like a good all-rounder ??

A 12gauge would look nice for this kind of situation, but then it's almost useless elsewhere...so the there's s-machine gun...and assault rifle..

One guy versus a mob is pretty fucked either way. I'd take a rifle over a shotgun because of magazine size and ease of reload.



But say, if you need to evacuate together with your family of four or five, to somewhere "safe", would you still prefer assault rifle and if so,....how far can you* travel on foot, and how much supply (ammunition alone, not including water/food) can you carry ?

*assuming you are just an average joe family guy and probably a lil bit overweight and not some super soldier....

I can carry a rifle, canteen, full battle load of ammo pretty damn far. I haven't practiced in awhile, but I used to run it for a couple miles and still make average time. Also, I'm not necessarily the average Joe. I'm myself, and unless I have an average Joe I'm responsible for, I don't care. You should plan the same way.

Also I have seen some of the iraqi "minor combat" among them selfs in the city (from youtube) with ak's but it didn't seems to me like assault rifles are doing much, it's like after a while...pretty much everyone is still alive and well and still shooting. So although assault rifles have the range, but in the hands of an average civilian.....didn't seem to be doing much.

Just curious.

Marksmanship principles. Theirs almost inevitably suck.

I bought an AK47 today.

I bought an AK47 today.

Nice. What kind?

Having multiples of both platform (before the tragic boating accident)...

Given the preference I would choose the AR.

However I would not feel under gunned with an AK.

(before the tragic boating accident)...

if you waited long enough there,...a guy would appear and ask you if your gun is a :

[a] golden ak-47

[b] silver ak-47

[c] regular ak-47

Nice. What kind?

It's a Saiga. All black 'cause the wood was replaced with plastic. There's a muzzle brake welded on, so that kinda sucks. I probably won't shoot it until I go to my parents' around Christmas.

Anyone know where I can buy a good and cheap folding or collapsible stock?

I paid $550. Was that a decent price? It looks like it's in good condition. It's been modified to take magazines bigger than the 10 round ones and it has a pistol grip, dunno if that's expensive or not, but I doubt it.

It's a Saiga. All black 'cause the wood was replaced with plastic. There's a muzzle brake welded on, so that kinda sucks. I probably won't shoot it until I go to my parents' around Christmas.

Anyone know where I can buy a good and cheap folding or collapsible stock?

I paid $550. Was that a decent price? It looks like it's in good condition. It's been modified to take magazines bigger than the 10 round ones and it has a pistol grip, dunno if that's expensive or not, but I doubt it.

no thats a decent deal. pics?

no thats a decent deal. pics?

All I have is this crappy picture I took with my phone. I don't have a digital camera 'cause I'm poor :(.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4381/12130810401qe9.jpg

if you waited long enough there,...a guy would appear and ask you if your gun is a :

[a] golden ak-47

[b] silver ak-47

[c] regular ak-47

Huh?



I meant...

Once obama was elected I took all of my firearms, firearm accessories and ammunition out with me on my friends boat.

There was a tragic accident in the gulf of mexico and I lost all of my gear in deep waters. =(

Huh?


nah...it reminded me of a childhood story about some guy whos ax fell into the water....and then were given 3 choices of ax, that story...you kno....

Ak Has More Power But M4 Has More Accuarcy Matters How Close Of Combat.

^lol :p

Ak Has More Power But M4 Has More Accuarcy Matters How Close Of Combat.

Excellent point..........

Ak Has More Power But M4 Has More Accuarcy Matters How Close Of Combat.

Not unless you use,

M4

With...

Stopping power.

-and-

Deep impact.

nah...it reminded me of a childhood story about some guy whos ax fell into the water....and then were given 3 choices of ax, that story...you kno....

I see I see.

Not unless you use,

M4

With...

Stopping power.

-and-

Deep impact.

yeah my m4 has a deep impact and stopping power switch built in next to the fire mode selector.

^lol.

I'm surprised no one has brought up aks in .223, or the magazine wells, and uppers for ars that take ak mags and 7.62 x 39. Really, you could have the parts to make either take either round. From what I've heard, (I've never switched the caliber of either) neither one takes a really long time to switch that stuff on. If you went with an ar you could just have an upper in 7.62 x 39, along with the mag well, and some ak mags cached, in case you for some reason had the urge to switch. The same goes for the ak, you could have all the parts to make it into a .223, so in short, go with whichever gun you like shooting better, feels more comfortable, and has the configurations you want. Or you could go with the supposed hybrid, a galil.

^lol.

I'm surprised no one has brought up aks in .223, or the magazine wells, and uppers for ars that take ak mags and 7.62 x 39. Really, you could have the parts to make either take either round. From what I've heard, (I've never switched the caliber of either) neither one takes a really long time to switch that stuff on. If you went with an ar you could just have an upper in 7.62 x 39, along with the mag well, and some ak mags cached, in case you for some reason had the urge to switch. The same goes for the ak, you could have all the parts to make it into a .223, so in short, go with whichever gun you like shooting better, feels more comfortable, and has the configurations you want. Or you could go with the supposed hybrid, a galil.
how would the 7.62 mag fit in a 5.56 lower magwell? You cant just change the mag well, you have to get a whole new lower and upper.
The .458 socom round does fit in a 5.56 lower. so you would just have to get a new .458 upper. it also fits in the 5.56 magazine. i believe 10 .458's fit in a 30 round mag.
There are some lowers that are more modular so you can change out the magwell on them but the normal ar15 lower cannot switch magwells.

Hm... this was a separate magwell, made to fit ak mags. It must have been an old lower that you could switch the magwells out on, but that's the reason I started asking about that ar, b/c it had an ak mag in it. This must have been one of the modular ones, and I know you have to get a new upper for the new round, I did mention that.

Hm... this was a separate magwell, made to fit ak mags. It must have been an old lower that you could switch the magwells out on, but that's the reason I started asking about that ar, b/c it had an ak mag in it. This must have been one of the modular ones, and I know you have to get a new upper for the new round, I did mention that.

you are probably thinking of this:
www.mgimilitary.com/Lower_Receiver_Mult_Mag_Wells.htm
there are other companies that make modular weapons systems for quick caliber conversion. one was featured on future weapons before.
This cant be done to your average AR15 lower receiver though:
www.keepshooting.com/productimages/firearms/receivers/ar-15lowerreceiverbig.jpg
The magwell is apart of the lower.

the bushmaster XCR/magpul masada are also modular weapons systems. similar to the ar15 and m16 but they have improvements. its pretty sweet looking:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoa-rJkHReM
i may be wrong about the quick caliber conversion on it but it is still sweet.

i was actually thinking of the robinson arms XCR. it is a modular system that has multicaliber conversion capabilities.
www.robarm.com/XCR_Cal_Conversion_Specs.asp
www.robarm.com/products.asp?cat=10
Vid of conversion:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=blnlk2KzQmU

^lol.

I'm surprised no one has brought up aks in .223, or the magazine wells, and uppers for ars that take ak mags and 7.62 x 39. Really, you could have the parts to make either take either round. From what I've heard, (I've never switched the caliber of either) neither one takes a really long time to switch that stuff on. If you went with an ar you could just have an upper in 7.62 x 39, along with the mag well, and some ak mags cached, in case you for some reason had the urge to switch. The same goes for the ak, you could have all the parts to make it into a .223, so in short, go with whichever gun you like shooting better, feels more comfortable, and has the configurations you want. Or you could go with the supposed hybrid, a galil.

Honestly, if you have the parts lying around to convert magwells in an AR-15, why not just buy an AK and keep the AR like it is? Which is more economic? To have a couple of cheap guns taking different cartridges plus your AR or a single gun having lots of parts to mix and match what you have? Versatility is great, but if it comes at the cost of downtime and limiting yourself to a single weapon it's not that great of an idea, in my opinion.

Besides, how is the AR-15 barrel held in place? I know that the AK barrel is pressed in, so it needs a press to take out. Can't change calibers if you can't change the barrel. ;)

Fair enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QnoHEgLTHs

Also, major lulz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

It never really occured to me at how much flex there would be for those stamped AKs.

Also, are there any companies that offer a gas piston upper that isn't absurdly expensive?

Fair enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QnoHEgLTHs

Also, major lulz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

It never really occured to me at how much flex there would be for those stamped AKs.

Also, are there any companies that offer a gas piston upper that isn't absurdly expensive?
They have gas piston conversions, i am sure you have heard about them.

Also I wonder what would happen if you put the piston gas system on the lower part of the AK. I always thought that if you put the gas system on the lower part of the barrel it would reduce recoil by pulling the guns muzzle downward.

They have gas piston conversions, i am sure you have heard about them.

Also I wonder what would happen if you put the piston gas system on the lower part of the AK. I always thought that if you put the gas system on the lower part of the barrel it would reduce recoil by pulling the guns muzzle downward.

I have heard of them, but they are pretty expensive. I'd much rather just get a gas piston upper that was made that way and be done with it. The uppers I've seen are well over a grand.

I have heard of them, but they are pretty expensive. I'd much rather just get a gas piston upper that was made that way and be done with it. The uppers I've seen are well over a grand.

$350+500 for a upper and gaspiston kit is cheaper than 1000-1500.

$350+500 for a upper and gaspiston kit is cheaper than 1000-1500.

Yea I know about the kit being tha tmuch. Is that really the best way to go?

Yea I know about the kit being tha tmuch. Is that really the best way to go?

If money is a problem it probably is. i have heard someone on here or arfcom attest that the gas piston kits work pretty well but a little bit of accuracy is lost. this is true even with the complete gas piston uppers. but i personally feel that the gas system on the AR15 works fine for me atleast. i have never had a problem with the gas tube system. If I want to use a gas piston gun i will use my mini-14 or saiga AK.

If money is a problem it probably is. i have heard someone on here or arfcom attest that the gas piston kits work pretty well but a little bit of accuracy is lost. this is true even with the complete gas piston uppers. but i personally feel that the gas system on the AR15 works fine for me atleast. i have never had a problem with the gas tube system. If I want to use a gas piston gun i will use my mini-14 or saiga AK.

The problem I see is that the Saiga uses a stamped receiver just like most all other AK guns. The only other gun I would consider being close is the Golani which not only uses the .223 round but the Kalashnikov action with a milled receiver. The problem with those are quality control on Century's part. I suppose I have been proven wrong about the AR-15 for the most part as long as parts are chrome-lined, so those are becoming a bit more appealing.

A local pawn shop might still have an AR-15 for sale for $750. I might get that and just save up for a gas piston mod. Accuracy really doesn't make THAT big a difference since I could always take the stuff off, the first shot will always be most accurate, and if I wanted great accuracy I'd get a PSL, Mosin, or something along those lines.

Fire supremacy, in my opinion, is a bit more important than accuracy, as long as accuracy isn't horribly affected.

One can occasionally find an AR-180B for <$1000. Good compromise. If you're spending more than a grand you may as well get the Sig 556.

Accuracy really doesn't make THAT big a difference since I could always take the stuff off, the first shot will always be most accurate, and if I wanted great accuracy I'd get a PSL, Mosin, or something along those lines.

I'd expect greater accuracy out of a piston-equipped AR than a PSL or Mosin.

The problem I see is that the Saiga uses a stamped receiver just like most all other AK guns. The only other gun I would consider being close is the Golani which not only uses the .223 round but the Kalashnikov action with a milled receiver. The problem with those are quality control on Century's part. I suppose I have been proven wrong about the AR-15 for the most part as long as parts are chrome-lined, so those are becoming a bit more appealing.

A local pawn shop might still have an AR-15 for sale for $750. I might get that and just save up for a gas piston mod. Accuracy really doesn't make THAT big a difference since I could always take the stuff off, the first shot will always be most accurate, and if I wanted great accuracy I'd get a PSL, Mosin, or something along those lines.

Fire supremacy, in my opinion, is a bit more important than accuracy, as long as accuracy isn't horribly affected.

Galil?

Galil?

Galil, Golani, w/e. I do like the gun despite it's weight but Century still has durability problems as far as I know.

I'd expect greater accuracy out of a piston-equipped AR than a PSL or Mosin.

At very long ranges I would take the heavier and more powerful ammunition of the Mosin and PSL over 5.56 as they are affected by windage less. I'm sobered up a little more so I understand what your are saying. kinda sorta (I hate admitting I am wrong.)

It also seems I can get a brand new AR-180 directly from Armalite for $850. :)
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=180B&Category=0406c9ff-539d-4b4c-ae1f-d045b91324c3%20&ret_url=Categories2.aspx?Category=0406c9ff-539d-4b4c-ae1f-d045b91324c3

Galil, Golani, w/e. I do like the gun despite it's weight but Century still has durability problems as far as I know.



At very long ranges I would take the heavier and more powerful ammunition of the Mosin and PSL over 5.56 as they are affected by windage less. I'm sobered up a little more so I understand what your are saying. kinda sorta (I hate admitting I am wrong.)

It also seems I can get a brand new AR-180 directly from Armalite for $850. :)
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=180B&Category=0406c9ff-539d-4b4c-ae1f-d045b91324c3%20&ret_url=Categories2.aspx?Category=0406c9ff-539d-4b4c-ae1f-d045b91324c3

Cool now just pop a red dot site on there and your ready to go because the top of the receiver looks butt ugly without the carry handle/rear sight setup.

Galil, Golani, w/e. I do like the gun despite it's weight but Century still has durability problems as far as I know.



At very long ranges I would take the heavier and more powerful ammunition of the Mosin and PSL over 5.56 as they are affected by windage less. I'm sobered up a little more so I understand what your are saying. kinda sorta (I hate admitting I am wrong.)

It also seems I can get a brand new AR-180 directly from Armalite for $850. :)
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=180B&Category=0406c9ff-539d-4b4c-ae1f-d045b91324c3%20&ret_url=Categories2.aspx?Category=0406c9ff-539d-4b4c-ae1f-d045b91324c3Lol i wasnt saying golani was wrong. I figured it was rifle also. Who knows these days. But i was suggesting the galil lol.

Lol i wasnt saying golani was wrong. I figured it was rifle also. Who knows these days. But i was suggesting the galil lol.

Just a difference in etiquette. I know some people like to get pissy at, for example, calling a Saiga or WASR-10 an AK-47.

At very long ranges I would take the heavier and more powerful ammunition of the Mosin and PSL over 5.56 as they are affected by windage less. I'm sobered up a little more so I understand what your are saying. kinda sorta (I hate admitting I am wrong.)

Wind drift is a factor of the round's ballistic coefficient. It just so happens that the BC for M855 5.56 and 148gr Russian light ball are very similar. At 500yds, the 5.56 will actually retain a slightly larger portion of its energy than the 7.62x54R, and will have dropped about half as much, due to its higher speed.

Will the Russian bullet have twice the energy at that range? Yeah. But windage hasn't got anything to do with it.

If money is a problem it probably is. i have heard someone on here or arfcom attest that the gas piston kits work pretty well but a little bit of accuracy is lost. this is true even with the complete gas piston uppers. but i personally feel that the gas system on the AR15 works fine for me atleast. i have never had a problem with the gas tube system. If I want to use a gas piston gun i will use my mini-14 or saiga AK.


So it MUST be true then!

God forbid you turn your 3 MOA carbine into a 4 MOA carbine.

Not to mention that most people arent champion shooters and cant afford to keep their guns loaded with match grade ammo. Most people will never see the true accuracy potential of a good AR.

Kinda like the chrome lined bore. A lot of people claim you loose accuracy potential, and a lot of people feel that the durability is worth it.

And while gas piston rifles are generally very reliable, I dont know of anyone who has installed one of these kits and put it through a good test to see how durable they are.

Im still doing research on this myself.

So it MUST be true then!

God forbid you turn your 3 MOA carbine into a 4 MOA carbine.

Not to mention that most people cant shoot/ cant afford to keep their guns loaded with match grade ammo. You are going to loose accuracy no matter what.

Kinda like the chrome lined bore. A lot of people claim you loose accuracy potential, and a lot of people feel that the durability is worth it.

And while gas piston rifles are generally very reliable, I dont know of anyone who has installed one of these kits and put it through a good test to see how durable they are.

Im still doing research on this myself.

dude i didnt say it was durable i just said it worked. And my carbine does better than 3moa.

If it shoots, I'll use it.

That's the bottom line.

I'm personally an AR man myself. How many AK's can be upped to national match grade and be as capable as an AR.

You have trade offs either way you go.

If it shoots, I'll use it.

That's the bottom line.

I'm personally an AR man myself. How many AK's can be upped to national match grade and be as capable as an AR.

You have trade offs either way you go.

The way I see it, the best things about the AK are the bolt mechanism, and the caliber, while the best of the AR is the trigger group, ergonomics, and accuracy.

So I would suggest that the best all-round gun would be an AR-15 with a piston arrangement and the bolt handle of the AK, chambered for 7.62x39mm.
Just a quick, sketchy thought.

dude i didnt say it was durable i just said it worked. And my carbine does better than 3moa.

I realize that. And I was saying if it turns out to be durable, I'll probobly get one.

Dont worry I wasnt ripping on your rifle, Im sure its lovely!

Like Lepper Messiah said, if it shoots I'll use it.

I realize that. And I was saying if it turns out to be durable, I'll probobly get one.

Dont worry I wasnt ripping on your rifle, Im sure its lovely!

Like Lepper Messiah said, if it shoots I'll use it.

Yeah I suppose with the reddot it does 3moa anyway because it I a 3moa red dot.

i wish I could find the reviews on the kits i will search for them.
although this is not the review i am searching for it is a start:
www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125079

Here is the review I was looking for:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=316338
^i wouldn't be suprised if there were other reviews of different retrofit kits.Apparently with that particular kit it did not affect accuracy very much at all.