George Bush made a decision to ignore Congress's decision to deny the auto industry the funds for a bailout, and instead used the money they designated for the banks and is signing it away to the auto industry. Is this constitutional? I guess it must be, since no one has said anything, but the executive (president) branch is supposed to carry out the decisions the legislative (congress) branch makes.

How do you feel about the bailout? Was it the right thing to do, or should we have let these companies fail? Free market, or controlled market? Who is to blame for the failure of these companies: The union workers or the CEOs? Discuss.

That bailout is absolutely necessary. How can we let the employers of 1/10 the population to go bankrupt? We can't. It's obvious the Big Three have been fucking up bad, but we still can't allow them to fall. We need to pressure them to modernize and make cars that the people want to buy.

We need to pressure them to modernize and make cars that the people want to buy.

We need to pressure welfare fucks to get jobs by......................giving them fistfulls of cash, by your logic.

-----

Besides, that is not the point. We elected people to represent us, they did, and one man overode this. I guess b/c his judgement has been so good thus far.

Fuck the automakers. I don't work for one, I don't own a business in which well paid auto workers spend their cash, and I don't buy the shitty products made by these three companies.

The same automakers who took so many fucking jobs overseas, and left ghost towns in their wake?

Why should I pay a fucking cent? What's more, is why does a de facto dictator get to make that decision for me, when my elected representative already voiced my concern by voting no?

Where is MY interest?

-------

The automakers should be forced to liquadate their company, sell cars for cents on the dollar, and give severends packages to all of it's employees as per the union contracts.

We need to pressure welfare fucks to get jobs by......................giving them fistfulls of cash, by your logic.

-----

Besides, that is not the point. We elected people to represent us, they did, and one man overode this. I guess b/c his judgement has been so good thus far.

Fuck the automakers. I don't work for one, I don't own a business in which well paid auto workers spend their cash, and I don't buy the shitty products made by these three companies.

The same automakers who took so many fucking jobs overseas, and left ghost towns in their wake?

Why should I pay a fucking cent? What's more, is why does a de facto dictator get to make that decision for me, when my elected representative already voiced my concern by voting no?

Where is MY interest?

-------

The automakers should be forced to liquadate their company, sell cars for cents on the dollar, and give severends packages to all of it's employees as per the union contracts.

BP, I often agree with you, but now isn't the case.

To summate my argument, I will tell you that in this country, majority rules. Honestly, neither you or I should give a shit about the automakers and their employees, but the actual situation is different.

Our country is in the midst of a severe recession, and a job lost of 1/10 of the workforce would shoot us into a full-blown recession. Naturally, we shouldn't give a fuck to what happens to people outside our personal lives, but in a situation as dire as the one we are in, a collapse of one sector of the economy will only lead to others.

George Bush made a decision to ignore Congress's decision to deny the auto industry the funds for a bailout, and instead used the money they designated for the banks and is signing it away to the auto industry. Is this constitutional? I guess it must be, since no one has said anything, but the executive (president) branch is supposed to carry out the decisions the legislative (congress) branch makes.

How do you feel about the bailout? Was it the right thing to do, or should we have let these companies fail? Free market, or controlled market? Who is to blame for the failure of these companies: The union workers or the CEOs? Discuss.

Union workers are to blame, for it is the proletariat that caused the need for a bailout via taking loans they could not afford. The proletariat ruins everything it touches. I kind of hope that this country does fall in to a GREAT ASS depression because I want my fellow citizens to suffer. I want the baby boomer generation to suffer for indebting us and my children and their children for generations to come. I want to see this nation collapse after I move somewhere else. I have a very deep seated hatred for working class people.

Union workers are to blame, for it is the proletariat that caused the need for a bailout via taking loans they could not afford. The proletariat ruins everything it touches. I kind of hope that this country does fall in to a GREAT ASS depression because I want my fellow citizens to suffer. I want the baby boomer generation to suffer for indebting us and my children and their children for generations to come. I want to see this nation collapse after I move somewhere else. I have a very deep seated hatred for working class people.

I don't agree on the whole proletariat theme, but young people all around the western world should HATE their parents.

No matter how much money you give those companies, they still won't make cars people will want to buy. It has nothing to do with legislation, unions, or CEO bonuses. American car companies can't compete with the afford ability and reliability of Japanese cars or the design and performance of German cars. For to long they half assed their work and now they are at the point of no return.

Union workers are to blame, for it is the proletariat that caused the need for a bailout via taking loans they could not afford. The proletariat ruins everything it touches. I kind of hope that this country does fall in to a GREAT ASS depression because I want my fellow citizens to suffer. I want the baby boomer generation to suffer for indebting us and my children and their children for generations to come. I want to see this nation collapse after I move somewhere else. I have a very deep seated hatred for working class people.

The proletariat is the most important class and you need cooperation between the business owner and the wage-earner. Usually, without a union, the business owner will in some way exploit his workers and their basic need for a job. Imagine if the working class rebelled. The economy would come to a stop. Unions basically keep that from happening and I gladly pay my dues.

Edit: You know what, your comment pisses me off so much I'd probably beat the shit out of you if you said this to my face.

The proletariat is the most important class and you need cooperation between the business owner and the wage-earner. Usually, without a union, the business owner will in some way exploit his workers and their basic need for a job. Imagine if the working class rebelled. The economy would come to a stop. Unions basically keep that from happening and I gladly pay my dues.



Negative. In the era of Human Resources and abundant litigation the big union is no longer necessary. They do nothing but hinder.

Note that Toyota and Honda do not need bailouts. Do they have a militant union holding them by the balls? No. The proletariat are gainfully employed only at the whim of the Bourgeoisie. Most of the time they are replaceable, or can be made redundant by labour saving devices.

Is this constitutional?

Does the Pope wear a big hat? Does a bear shit in the woods? Are you a fucking moron?

I have a very deep seated hatred for working class people.

Well fuck you too, nigger.

It seems only logical for the UAW to agree to wage cuts to be at comparable levels of American Toyota and Honda workers. Besides, what is their fucking alternative? If they really think it's that bad, they should be willing to accept any conditions from the government. The fact that they don't want to take a little pay cut seems to scream bullshit to me.

Negative. In the era of Human Resources and abundant litigation the big union is no longer necessary. They do nothing but hinder.


That's your opinion and I respectfully disagree. From working in both worlds, I can't imagine being a non-union worker.

To summate my argument, I will tell you that in this country, majority rules. Honestly, neither you or I should give a shit about the automakers and their employees, but the actual situation is different.

A majority of the people elected congressmen and senators to represent them. These men and women, voted no.

ONE man, overturned this descision.

This is why this one man, is hated.

A majority of the people elected congressmen and senators to represent them. These men and women, voted no.

ONE man, overturned this descision.

This is why this one man, is hated.

And the winner is!!!! *raises BrokeProphet's hand*

And the winner is!!!! *raises BrokeProphet's hand*


Well the majority of the people shouldn't have elected him back in 2004 because Kerry looked French.

Well the majority of the people shouldn't have elected him back in 2004 because Kerry looked French.

They didn't.

They didn't.


Even if we consider vote machine fraud, there were still millions that legitimately voted for him. People like to blame George Bush for stuff, but its not like he was just placed where he is. There are people that have voted for him and there are people (almost the whole country) that stand idly by witnessing his incompetence. The problem isn't Bush, the problem is your neighbors. Sure Bush fucked up so bad that the Democrats have taken even more seats in the Legislature and the White House. But the problem still exists in that the same exact people that legitimately stood behind Bush will stand by another fuck up 4 years or 8 years from now.

All of that red meat that Palin threw at the Republican base helped show this nation who the base really is. Bush didn't make them that way. They were like that before the people in his Administration further polarized this country intentionally.

Here is how I see the motherfucking bailout of the big 3.

#1 the fucking big three seen this coming a long time ago. What the fuck did they do about it. NOTHING!! these fucking assholes did very little to nothing. Is the union partially to blame on this, Hell yes.

How can you cut the pay rates of the all of your workers to save money or discontinue health care for the workers family after they have retired when the union has these companies by the balls.
You can't. Therefore the union has partial blame in the matter of saving money.

#2 Bankruptcy seems to be the a decent choice for the big 3. Remember If one of the big three files bankruptcy they all pretty much have to. It's a matter of time.

Why does this seem like a decent choice. #1 the union. You can get rid of the union or have huge pull and can convince the union to do just about whatever you want. Why because well, if they don't negotiate the corp will be gone-dy! Another reason why it's good not to give them the bailout money is because you force these corps to restucture. You HAVE to restructure if you file bankruptcy.

A reason why it's not good to file bankruptcy is because the 3rd party workers that work for the big 3 might not get their bills on time. If these companies do not get their money they very well go out of business or have to file bankruptcy. Thus hurting even more people and the big 3 down the road.

#3 The bailout. The bailout the way it is being carried out seems like the split down the middle decision. They have appointed a person to look after the big 3 and how they are using their money and how they are restructuring. If that person does not like what they see they can cut off that money any time they damn well please. This will force the unions to not be nearly as powerful. It will help the 3rd party workers as they will get their money and they might possibly get more business if the union is unwilling to negotiate. By the 3rd party workers not going down this helps the big 3 keep their business going as union free as possible. It will also help them restructure to a certain point because if the offical ahead of it is a good man and knows not much has been done he will cut them bastards off of the money the so desperatly need to operate with filing bankruptcy.


I have a story i would like to tell you as to why i think the bailout might be a bad idea. I have a buddy who works at ford. To go up in a latter to change a lightbulb u have to have 2 people. it is a union job. u have to have 1 hold the latter and the other to change it. It once took 3 weeks to change a single lightbulb because of the union. if a 3rd party worker was to do this it would have been changed that same very day.

Why do i think the bailout is kind of a bad idea. How long is it going to take to negotiate witht he union if it takes them 3 weeks to change a damn fucking lightbulb! Lets think of that time in terms of money. How much do we have?

#1 the fucking big three seen this coming a long time ago. What the fuck did they do about it. NOTHING!! these fucking assholes did very little to nothing. Is the union partially to blame on this, Hell yes.


What should they have done? The free market drove them off a cliff. Their bread and butter were big cars that the market decided was the best and now the market is bitching and moaning that an integral part of our economy is dying because of them.

What should they have done? The free market drove them off a cliff. Their bread and butter were big cars that the market decided was the best and now the market is bitching and moaning that an integral part of our economy is dying because of them.

Over here in Europe we decided long ago that although big cars are a hell of a lot of fun they were uneconomical. You drive round in a big American car anywhere else but America you get laughed at. American companies have preached what is wanted, not listened to the world consumers. If you want quality products go to germany, korea or japan. American companies thought they knew what was best.... they didn't.

Even if we consider vote machine fraud, there were still millions that legitimately voted for him. People like to blame George Bush for stuff, but its not like he was just placed where he is. There are people that have voted for him and there are people (almost the whole country) that stand idly by witnessing his incompetence. The problem isn't Bush, the problem is your neighbors. Sure Bush fucked up so bad that the Democrats have taken even more seats in the Legislature and the White House. But the problem still exists in that the same exact people that legitimately stood behind Bush will stand by another fuck up 4 years or 8 years from now.

All of that red meat that Palin threw at the Republican base helped show this nation who the base really is. Bush didn't make them that way. They were like that before the people in his Administration further polarized this country intentionally.

I blame the media. People don't know they should be killing their leaders for treason right now.

Over here in Europe we decided long ago that although big cars are a hell of a lot of fun they were uneconomical. You drive round in a big American car anywhere else but America you get laughed at. American companies have preached what is wanted, not listened to the world consumers. If you want quality products go to germany, korea or japan. American companies thought they knew what was best.... they didn't.

The American car market is suited for Americans, dumbass. Euro GM still has all the powerful and economical cars that have far worse emissions standards compared to America. Euro GM, Ford, et al listen to their European consumer base just like GM America listens to its. Stop being a globalist eurofag. Europe is not the center of the world.

The American car market is suited for Americans, dumbass. Euro GM still has all the powerful and economical cars that have far worse emissions standards compared to America. Euro GM, Ford, et al listen to their European consumer base just like GM America listens to its. Stop being a globalist eurofag. Europe is not the center of the world.

Unless you havn't noticed America isn't the only market. Other commpanies are still making a lot of money. You don't see BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Toyota, Audi, Skoda, Ferrari etc asking for bail outs. Jaguar (a British company), maybe...

Euro GM.... who the hell has one of those?

The problem with American cars is they're big, unreliable and ineffecient. Try selling that crap anywhere else but America.... oh you can't and now they need a bailout to keep making that crap :rolleyes:

Unless you havn't noticed America isn't the only market. Other commpanies are still making a lot of money. You don't see BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Toyota, Audi, Skoda, Ferrari etc asking for bail outs. Jaguar (a British company), maybe...

Maybe it has something to do with all of those companies either not having much of an American market to begin with or being based in a foreign country, having socialized medicine.

Euro GM.... who the hell has one of those?

Are you some sort of moron? Saabs, Cadillacs, Opels, and Vauxhalls are HUGE sellers in Europe. GM also owned Lotus at one time as well as having stakes in Isuzu (which still makes parts for GM) and Suzuki.

The problem with American cars is they're big, unreliable and ineffecient. Try selling that crap anywhere else but America.... oh you can't and now they need a bailout to keep making that crap :rolleyes:

The problem with your arguement is that you are a fucking idiot. Lots of American GM cars have been rebadged European versions. Vauxhall VX200, Opel Vecrta, Opel GT, Opel Astra to name a few.

Our shit is so unreliable? Maybe that's why the Chevy 5.7 has sold over 90 million units since 1968? That's about as many AK-47s that have ever been built.

Get raped by a Paki immigrant, asswipe. (http://voices.kansascity.com/node/3008)

Maybe it has something to do with all of those companies either not having much of an American market to begin with or being based in a foreign country, having socialized medicine.



Are you some sort of moron? Saabs, Cadillacs, Opels, and Vauxhalls are HUGE sellers in Europe. GM also owned Lotus at one time as well as having stakes in Isuzu (which still makes parts for GM) and Suzuki.



The problem with your arguement is that you are a fucking idiot. Lots of American GM cars have been rebadged European versions. Vauxhall VX200, Opel Vecrta, Opel GT, Opel Astra to name a few.

Our shit is so unreliable? Maybe that's why the Chevy 5.7 has sold over 90 million units since 1968? That's about as many AK-47s that have ever been built.

I'm a big enough man to admit when i'm wrong. I didn't realise American companies owned that many other ones. I looked online for the list of who owns who and here's what I found:

BMW owns:
-BMW
-Mini
-Rolls Royce

Daimler/Chrysler owns:
-AMC (brand discontinued)
-Chrysler
-Dodge
-Eagle (brand discontinued)
-Hyundai (Daimler/Chrysler only owns 10%)
-Jeep
-Maybach
-Mercedes-Benz
-Mitsubishi (Daimler/Chrysler owns 37%)
-Plymouth (brand discontinued)
-Smart

Fiat owns:
-Alfa Romeo
-Ferrari
-Fiat
-Lancia
-Maserati

Ford owns:
-Aston Martin
-Ford
-Jaguar
-Land Rover (bought from BMW)
-Lincoln
-Mazda (Ford owns 33% of Mazda)
-Mercury
-Volvo cars

Fuji Heavy Industries owns:
-Subaru

General Motors owns:
-Buick
-Cadillac
-Chevrolet
-Daewoo (GM owns 44%)
-Fiat (GM owns ~20%)
-Fuji Heavy Industries (GM owns ~20%)
-GMC
-Holden
-Hummer
-Isuzu (GM only owns a percentage)
-Oldsmobile (brand discontinued)
-Opel
-Pontiac
-Saab
-Saturn
-Subaru (GM owns 20%)
-Suzuki (GM only owns a small percentage)
-Vauxhall

Honda owns:
-Acura
-Honda

Hyundai owns:
-Hyundai
-Kia

Nissan owns:
-Infiniti
-Nissan
-Renault (Nissan owns 15%)

PSA Peugeot Citroen owns:
-Citroen
-Peugeot

Porsche is an independent company (they do work very closely with VW, however)

Renault owns:
-Nissan (Renault owns 44%)

Toyota owns:
-Lexus
-Scion
-Toyota

Volkswagen owns:
-Audi
-Bentley
-Bugatti
-Lamborghini
-SEAT
-Skoda
-Volkswagen

It always amazes me when I go online. You think you're reading things written by children but they actually turn out to be written by adults. Take for instance the last post... very mature *sarcasm*

Anyway on the subject of the American companies If people still love the American cars then why do you need the bailout? The truth is that they cant sell the crap because the competition listed above make better, more desirable products. Prove me wrong.

Prove me wrong.

gb2/b/

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/02/business/fi-carsales2

Everyone is doing bad because Americans are fighting price inflation (pretty much everything because it's all tied to oil), wage stagnation, and now they can't get credit as easilly and many are finding themselves without jobs.

Go peddle your bullshit elsewhere.

You have to admit that bailing out the auto industry is just a fucking stupid idea. Really what the fuck is it going to accomplish? You have to really think about that. Sure they stay in business and people keep their jobs. Does it solve the root problem though? Who is to say they won't be back in 10 years with their hand out?

Bailing out the auto industry is no less stupid than bailing out the financial industry. 700B for Jew bankers? no worries. A fraction of that for the car industry to remain afloat? FUCK NO!

Bailing out the auto industry is no less stupid than bailing out the financial industry. 700B for Jew bankers? no worries. A fraction of that for the car industry to remain afloat? FUCK NO!

THe inended purpose of the bank bailout was to keep banks extending the line of credit, and we all know how that turned out.

The problem here is that the bank bailout was pretty much free money. The automotive bailout is a loan. In fact, Chrystler already borrowed from the US government before and the government made a profit from the deal. They probably wont see a profit in the short term on this one, though, since the economy is the reason people aren't buying cars.

They are all stuck between a rock and a hard place on this. Emissions and saftey regulations being relaxed would allow a surge in European models into the American market which would mean we had a large number of cars coming in that got much better fuel economy and were much cheaper to produce. (At least for Ford and GM. Chrystler is FUCKED) However, Congress and the tough emissions states won't allow this to happen so a bailout is likely the only thing left to do and I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel yet.

http://newsproject.org/node/181

Yeah I've got nothing. It's more related to the last bailout.

I was thinking about how the government is loaning the auto industry money, and I am wondering if this is the correct way to look at it:

Banks that would normally loan businesses money will not loan GM or Chrysler anything because the loan is too risky. The bankers think, based on projections for the economy, projections for American car companies, and the past record and debt of American car companies, that GM and Chrysler won't be able to make good on a loan and they will fail. And every bank has then denied a loan to these companies.

So then the government steps in to give them a loan as a last resort. But isn't this a very high risk loan, seeing as how no one else was willing to give it to them? The odds are highly against GM and Chrysler succeeding then, eh?

So then the government steps in to give them a loan as a last resort. But isn't this a very high risk loan, seeing as how no one else was willing to give it to them? The odds are highly against GM and Chrysler succeeding then, eh?

This is where the concept of "too big to fail" comes in. Private banks have no interest in seeing millions of manufacturing jobs stay, whereas the federal government does. If there was no welfare and everything was run by one big private organization that also happened to have a lot of capital on hand, then that organization would likely step in and bail out the car companies because there's more to it than profit for that organization. Same with the gov. I don't know how much sense that analogy made, sorry.

I mentioned this in another thread that is on totse right now, but I'll add it here too.

There isn't just a major economic problems with letting the big three fail, but also national security issues with it. In the event of a major war, the big three have the largest production facilities for building military vehicles. The government is motivated by this fact to make sure these facilities stay operational at any cost. These facilities must be operational at a moments notice. The government spent a lot of money in the past to make sure that these assembly facilities can be re-tooled to produce tanks, planes, APCs, humvees, and a wide variety of other military vehicles necessary to carry out large scale warfare. They did this after these same companies played an integral part in the success of WWII. Bombardier is a similar company here in Canada that has been bailed out many times because of their ability to be re-tooled for building fighter planes, and other military vehicles for the armed forces. I'd say this bailout has more to do with national security than it has to do with the economic turmoil. Most likely the national security issue is why Bush was able to overturn the decision congress made without violating any laws.

I mentioned this in another thread that is on totse right now, but I'll add it here too.

There isn't just a major economic problems with letting the big three fail, but also national security issues with it. In the event of a major war, the big three have the largest production facilities for building military vehicles. The government is motivated by this fact to make sure these facilities stay operational at any cost. These facilities must be operational at a moments notice. The government spent a lot of money in the past to make sure that these assembly facilities can be re-tooled to produce tanks, planes, APCs, humvees, and a wide variety of other military vehicles necessary to carry out large scale warfare. They did this after these same companies played an integral part in the success of WWII. Bombardier is a similar company here in Canada that has been bailed out many times because of their ability to be re-tooled for building fighter planes, and other military vehicles for the armed forces. I'd say this bailout has more to do with national security than it has to do with the economic turmoil. Most likely the national security issue is why Bush was able to overturn the decision congress made without violating any laws.

Well there weren't actually any laws against it.
The asked congress for money, congress said get stuffed.
Bush then went and gave them money that he'd already got from congress.

The Bailout that was passed in October has a special "side note" for a lack of better terms. It basically says that, the treasury and The Fed can print out whatever money is needed to help businesses that are in need, if congress does not approve. So its only a matter of time before our dollar is made in Toilet Paper because, the dollar will be everywhere and strained and further weakened as the premier currency for the world.

I am against the Bailout 100% for any and all businesses that even ask for one. For three reasons, the first is obvious their stealing money from us during hard times, making times even harder. The second, that money will most likely go to the higher ups and never really used to improve the health of the economy.

The third reason, the way the economy works is that things are supposed to grow, rise and fall only to have something new take its place. I think we lost faith in our own capitalist system. The system has its downside but even nature has its downside. Its a cycle, yes people will get laid off, so they go and find another job.

However the system we have set up with a central bank (The Fed) only keeps doing what made the problem worst to begin with, giving credit and constant spending. What happens in the Capitalist market you have small waves of growth and shrink but with a Central bank you have large waves and the fall hurts us so much more than a natural fall. The Central Bank is unnatural and artificial, its dangerous to prosperity.

It's just been on the TV. Toyota the biggest car maker globally is in big trouble, as is jaguar and Landrover.


Someone stated earlier that the dollar will be worthless... that is and isn't true. China has the largest reserve of foreign currency and can't let the dollar fail because it's 2 Trillion dollars of foreign currency will become worthless so China lends America all the money it needs.

If any other country was in the same situation their currency would have collapsed long ago.

We need to pressure welfare fucks to get jobs by......................giving them fistfulls of cash, by your logic.

-----

Besides, that is not the point. We elected people to represent us, they did, and one man overode this. I guess b/c his judgement has been so good thus far.

Fuck the automakers. I don't work for one, I don't own a business in which well paid auto workers spend their cash, and I don't buy the shitty products made by these three companies.

The same automakers who took so many fucking jobs overseas, and left ghost towns in their wake?

Why should I pay a fucking cent? What's more, is why does a de facto dictator get to make that decision for me, when my elected representative already voiced my concern by voting no?

Where is MY interest?

-------

The automakers should be forced to liquadate their company, sell cars for cents on the dollar, and give severends packages to all of it's employees as per the union contracts.

Sir, you are a genious. These people have no one to blaim for what's happening now but themselves. Why the fuck should we care about them, when all they do is screw US out of jobs by moving everything over seas? Fuck em. Make THEM pay for it. We all know that the owners and all the high-ups of these companies aren't hurting for cash. Make THEM pay for THEIR fuck up

GM for example pays a hell of a lot more taxes than your little salary, so why the hell shouldn't they expect the government to help them? If you're in a crisis, you expect to get some help.

What is with Americans and your false sense of entitlement? it's so fucking annoying.

Idiots.

GM for example pays a hell of a lot more taxes than your little salary, so why the hell shouldn't they expect the government to help them? If you're in a crisis, you expect to get some help.

What is with Americans and your false sense of entitlement? it's so fucking annoying.

Idiots.

If you want to talk about an "all things equal" scenario, than GM should only get back the taxes it paid into the government. All the taxes paid by the people should just go back to the people.

Also, the US government was made in a way that the government would be a form of public service. They serve the public. The public does not serve them. Therefore, that sense of entitlement over what the government does is justified. Of course, unless the public is a the portion that joins the military. That portion serves the government, of course.

It's just been on the TV. Toyota the biggest car maker globally is in big trouble, as is jaguar and Landrover.


My friend works on an assembly line for Toyota. Just spoke with him two days ago and found out their plant will be closed until February. Then he got all angry about me saying that instead of buying a new car, I'm planning on rebuilding my current one with JDM after market parts.