So look,
I am a playing the fiddle-violin and I come to a confusion of key signatures.
Now an example of my question is this, without understanding the whole music theory of 'modes' (which I'll be looking into soon),

The key of A Dorian has one sharp in the key signature.
But A Minor has no sharp.
I was led to believe that the key of C has no sharps in it's signature.
So is it C or A Minor?

So if all I know when looking at a piece of music is it's 'signature' how do I know what it really is?
And can two keys or modes share the same signature, or be synonymous?

And if I simply play it as it seems, will it be correct? like I'll be playing in the wrong key(mode) without knowing it.
But the trained ear will recognize the error?

I don't have a teacher right now, but do I really need one if I can study it like this?

So off I go to research 'modes'.
Thanks for any clarification.

Yes Am and C have the same key signature. The only way you can tell which it is is to look at the music. Pieces in Am will tend to start/end with the chord Am; in C, C major. There's no way really you can get it wrong.. if you follow the key signature it'll sound fine.

I love teaching about modes, and I am sure people here do too, you can ask any questions you like :)

I would agree, don't pay anyone for this knowledge, autodidiction rocks :)

I learned everything I know without a teacher, and nowI charge 25$/hr for lessons lol. You can totally get there

Okay , thanks for that.

So I have found how to make anything mixolydian too.

Now with those signatures, it seems simple enough. But what if (http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/display.php?ID=JSS0610) there is, in the signature, two sharps, and a natural on the G in the treble clef? Like what is a natural sign doing in the key signature?
I can find no reference to that.
Makes it D major-B minor, but what does the natural sign do to that?

^^dude i can't really help you with the whole naturals in the key signature thing. Honestly the natural wouldn't make a difference no matter what because you're just playing the notes shown to you.


I have another question though... wtf is with the clef? It isn't a viola clef because the dots are one line up, and its the wrong way round for a normal bass clef... so what is it? It is still just a normal bass clef?

"I have another question though... wtf is with the clef? It isn't a viola clef because the dots are one line up, and its the wrong way round for a normal bass clef... so what is it? It is still just a normal bass clef?"

There are three types of clef used in modern music notation: F, C, and G. Each type of clef assigns a different reference note to the line on which it is placed. The clef is the symbol at the beginning of the staff.

the G-clef G above Middle C encircled by the curl of the clef.
the C-clef Middle C that passes through the center of the clef.
the F-clef F below Middle C between the two dots of the clef.

Once one of these clefs has been placed on one of the lines of the staff, the other lines and spaces can be read in relation to it. To this end, the G-clef is used for high parts, the C-clef for middle parts, and the F-clef for low parts.

Okay , thanks for that.

So I have found how to make anything mixolydian too.

Now with those signatures, it seems simple enough. But what if (http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/display.php?ID=JSS0610) there is, in the signature, two sharps, and a natural on the G in the treble clef? Like what is a natural sign doing in the key signature?
I can find no reference to that.
Makes it D major-B minor, but what does the natural sign do to that?

The natural sign is there to signify that the key is a mode. I'll step you through how to find which one.

As you see, the other two are sharps, so we can presume that the G would normally have been sharp is not flattened by the natural sign. So, that gives us F#, C# and G#. The two main keys we can derive from this are F#m and A. Now, while theoretically, it could be any mode based on those two keys, composers are incredibly lazy; you can guarantee that if a key would denote one of two keys normally, the mode will start on that key.

You can typically determine what key/mode a piece will be in by the starting chord or, sometimes, the starting note (without going too far into music theory, most music starts on the I chord, or the root of the scale; i.e. the note that you name when naming the key, though sometimes it starts on other positions). This happens to start with a lead-in note of an F#, so we can be pretty certain that whatever mode it is, it starts on F#. Now, to name it.

The first step is determining which note F# is compared to the root scale. However, before that, we need step zero: knowing which step is what mode. Take the key of C:

C D E F G A B C

In this case, imagine each of those numbered one through seven. A mode of C major would simply be playing those exact seven notes but in a sequence starting from a note other than C. For instance, minor keys are actually a mode of the major key starting on note six. In the case of C major, it is A. Starting from A, we get:

A B C D E F G A

or the A minor scale. The names for each mode off of the major are:

(Note to others who know theory: I am not going to write the position numbers in proper format because for now, number is more important than syntax)
I: Ionian
II: Dorian
III: Phrygian
IV: Lydian
V: Mixolydian
VI: Aeolian
VII: Locrian

Now that we have that out of the way, we can get back to naming our particular mode. We need to find the root scale. We can do that by looking at what the key would have been without the three accidentals, i.e. a key with two sharps. In the case of two sharps, it can either be D or Bm. We can use any of those to figure out the mode, but we've been working in major, so I'll use that. The key of D major goes:

D E F# G A B C# D

So, we know that the mode starts with F#, which is the third note here, and we know that modes starting on the third note of a major are the Phrygian mode. We can now safely say that this piece is in F# Phrygian.

And that's how you figure out modes based on keys with natural signs in them. It looks complicated on paper, but once you memorize your key signatures and the order of modes and can figure out the starting chord of a piece, it goes pretty quickly.

EXTRA: This is unrelated to finding the mode of that piece. I just wanted to illustrate more clearly what modes would look like. Consider this extra. Off of the key of C:

Ionian: C D E F G A B C
Dorian: D E F G A B C D
Phrygian: E F G A B C D E
Lydian: F G A B C D E F
Mixolydian: G A B C D E F G
Aeolian: A B C D E F G A
Locrian: B C D E F G A B

And you can do that with any key.

The natural sign is there to signify that the key is a mode. I'll step you through how to find which one.


This is true, but its nothing conventional. It would confuse most people, even those with lots of experience reading music. (Convention is you never mix signs in a key signature.)



So, we know that the mode starts with F#, which is the third note here, and we know that modes starting on the third note of a major are the Phrygian mode. We can now safely say that this piece is in F# Phrygian.

Its not F# phrgian, its A mixolydian.

Using the first note as an indicator of key isnt reliable. Secondly, the key signature is an A major key signature, with the G sharp replaced with a natural.. making it mixolydian (as it now has a flat 7). The piece also ends on a A chord (the end is much more reliable than the start, as most pieces end on thier tonic).




EDIT:

Oh, please dont refer to modes as keys. I noticed that you said "key of A dorian" in the OP. Modes are not keys. Keys are a part of functional harmony, modes are not. Youll notice in that piece you posted, the bass barely changes and is restricted to only 2 notes. If you look at most key based music, youll see that the bass usually jumps around a lot. This is becasue with modal music, the chords no longer have thier intended functions (ie, a dom 7th doesnt resolve to the tonic, etc) and by using too many chords, youll create too much gravity towards the regular major (ionian) tonic.

If theres anything else you need to be explained, ask away.

In normal legit theory minor implies harmonic minor. meaning the 3rd and 6th are lowered and the 7th stays the same. However, the leading tone is never included in the key signature it's always and accidental. so A minor will have the same key signature as C major (its relative major) but will have a G# in it. To the OP look up a circle of fifths chard and figure it out, it has all the key signatures and their relative minors on it in "order."

and some modal music does use functional harmony, it's usually folk songs and the like. Jazz modal music however tends not to.

So then, the natural sign is not additional to the two sharps, but rather to change the third sharp to a natural, which is G#, which is the seventh note of the scale, making it a half step lower, and thus it is mixolydian mode of A.

BUT, isn't that the same as D Major? Why A mixolydian and not D Major?

So, "G major" is G A B C D E F# G
and "G mixolydian" is G A B C D E F G

And I now go to read the 'dominant mediant submediant' stuff.

So then, the natural sign is not additional to the two sharps, but rather to change the third sharp to a natural, which is G#, which is the seventh note of the scale, making it a half step lower, and thus it is mixolydian mode of A.


Pretty much. I wouldn't call it the mixolydian mode of A, becasue to me, that sounds like the mixolydian mode relative to A major (which woulc be E mixolydian). If that makes sense. Keep it simple, A mixolydian :)


BUT, isn't that the same as D Major? Why A mixolydian and not D Major?
It is indeed. Its to do with tonics. D majors "home note" is D, A mixolydians home note, is A. Same set of notes, different tonic. Now because the tonic has moved, some of the intervals will change (as with mixolydian, it now has a minor 7th instead of a major 7th) and these differences make the new 'feel'.

Since in mixolydians case, only one note has changed, you may think its probably too small a difference to really matter. However, one note makes a huge difference. Consider the natural minor and harmonic minor chord scales (as 7ths):

N. Minor: m7 - m7b5 - Maj7 - m7 - m7 - Maj7 - Maj7

H. Minor: mMaj7* - m7b5 - Maj7#5 - m7 - Dom7 - Maj7 - Dim7

* mMaj7 = Minor Major 7th.. a minor chord, with a major 7th.

That one change (the 7th being sharpened) makes a big difference!



So, "G major" is G A B C D E F# G
and "G mixolydian" is G A B C D E F G

Yup :)

Wow, its like a synonymous network of scales.
I don't get the chord scales bit though, and I'll leave that alone for now. Although I believe there is scales of all the notes of a chord.

It seems that the 'tonic' is the first note of a scale.

Man, it's such a bunch of confusing steps and half steps!

It's easy to understand that a Major scale can be made off any note, and I see how to make it mixolydian, but can't everything just be chromatic?! If A mixolydian is the same thing as D major but started three notes before I may as well just play it like it's in D because I understand that, it'd be good right? Because they contain the same notes and I'm putting my finger in the same spots to play the song (http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/d...php?ID=JSS0610).

So If I just adjust the G# to a natural (in my fingering on the fingerboard) then I'll be pretty well playing in D (in my mind, while I am aware of the A mixolydian vice versa) and I can leave the complex stuff till it all sinks in and I come to my next theory epiphany (as is this thread). Does that sound well enough for me to play the song in tune and 'relatively' in key?

(And thanks for the super useful advice!)

In normal legit theory minor implies harmonic minor. meaning the 3rd and 6th are lowered and the 7th stays the same. However, the leading tone is never included in the key signature it's always and accidental. so A minor will have the same key signature as C major (its relative major) but will have a G# in it. To the OP look up a circle of fifths chard and figure it out, it has all the key signatures and their relative minors on it in "order."

and some modal music does use functional harmony, it's usually folk songs and the like. Jazz modal music however tends not to.


One interesting thing I found is that the Circle of Fifths is apparently fundamentally wrong (Much like Bohr's pie atom figure before we found out what an atom actually was).
It works for us in our range, but by some Pythagorean theory in music-- it doesn't work.

Its been an interesting topic, but I can't find the source that supported it. It's more theoretical then anything, but I still recommend the OP learn the 5C.

Wow, its like a synonymous network of scales.
I don't get the chord scales bit though, and I'll leave that alone for now. Although I believe there is scales of all the notes of a chord.


It is kind of. Lots of scales relate to eachother. Like the exotic pentatonic scales, the kumoi and the hirajoshi are technically modes of eachother.

Chord scales are simply a scale of chords. Nothing too complicated, it would go something like this:

Take C major. C D E F G A B.

You harmonise the chords making:

CEGB - Maj7
DFAE - m7
EGBD - m7
FACE - Maj7
GBDF - Dom7
ACEG - m7
BDFA - m7b5

And thus, the chord scale would be Maj7 - m7 - m7 - Maj7 - Dom7 - m7 - m7b5. (and this is the same for all major/ionian scales.)



It seems that the 'tonic' is the first note of a scale.That's right.



Man, it's such a bunch of confusing steps and half steps!

It's easy to understand that a Major scale can be made off any note, and I see how to make it mixolydian, but can't everything just be chromatic?! If A mixolydian is the same thing as D major but started three notes before I may as well just play it like it's in D I think the problem youre having with the understanding is youre comparing D major and A mixolydian, instead of A major and A mixolydian. The things you should be looking for are the differences of the scales with the same tonic, and not the similarities between it and its relative modes. Seeing all the modes as derivatives of the major scale makes them easy to learn (7 modes from 1 scale.. lots less work!) but they do not work the same way.

Harmonising A major and A mixolyidan, youll get:

A Maj: Maj7 - m7 - m7 - Maj7 - Dom7 - m7 - m7b5

A Mx: Dom7 - m7 - m7b5 - Maj7 - m7 - m7 - Maj7

So instantly, you can see the chords are pretty different.

Notice the chord 7 in both those scales. In major, its a m7b5, in mixolydian, its a Maj7. Now go back and look at this piece again: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/display.php?ID=JSS0610

Look at the bass. It alternates exclusively between the I and the VII chord. This is a mixolydian chord progression. A pretty common one for mixolydian. The 7th being major instead of minor, is a characteristic of mixolydian (obviously as it doesnt occur in major.) So in Mixolydian, the progression is Amaj - Gmaj, but in major, it would be Amaj - Gdim.

If A mixolydian is the same thing as D major but started three notes before I may as well just play it like it's in D
because I understand that, it'd be good right? Because they contain the same notes and I'm putting my finger in the same spots to play the song (http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/d...php?ID=JSS0610).

So If I just adjust the G# to a natural (in my fingering on the fingerboard) then I'll be pretty well playing in D (in my mind, while I am aware of the A mixolydian vice versa) and I can leave the complex stuff till it all sinks in and I come to my next theory epiphany (as is this thread). Does that sound well enough for me to play the song in tune and 'relatively' in key?
When youre reading music, none of this matters. Play whats written, and it shall all be fine.

This is why I dont like those key signatures. They confuse people too much. Theres no need for a G natural in the key signature (unless its halfway through a piece, and there is a key change from A major to D major (or thier minors), where naturalising the G would be necessary)

If you ever score down music youve written modally, i would suggest to you to use the key signature of the related major scale, and leave it at that. The piece will sound the same, and your players wont be vexed by the key.


(And thanks for the super useful advice!)Thanks for asking these questions. Im more than happy to answer anything about music theory or music business. Im just glad you want to better your knowledge about music. And srsly, dealing with musicians who know their theory compared to those who dont.. my god it is far, far better in every way.

*sigh*

Go spend the 20 bucks on a rudiments textbook and it will teach you all you need to know if you're not a complete idiot.