So i wasn't sure where to post this; ultimately this seemed the place.

I really haven't given much thought to eating animals/animal products. My justification really is because im hungry and it tastes nice, but this really isn't good enough so i figure if i am to continue to eat meat, i need a better justification than sense gratification.

Opinions for and against meat are welcome; im just looking for justification.

Edit: Im particularly looking at ethical justifications.

Because our bodies are readily able to consume and digest animal products.

::cue angry comments from vegetarians arguing otherwise with bogus science::

There are certainly scientific studies showing both pros & cons of eating various diets. Red meat eaters get decent nutrition, yet they also have a higher tendency to the busted asses, eg: colon cancer... :eek: :(

It's an ethical justification if you are a homosexual.

im thinking of decreasing my red meat intake.

it's very unhealthy.

requesting mod move to oh the humanities.

Based on response i don't feel this is the appropriate forum.

Seems people here think with their stomach.

There's a 2-page Humanities thread about it.

My advice: Eat what you want. Killing for food is the way of most animals (and some plants too, for that matter), and ethics don't exist outside of our heads. The universe does not give a fuck.

The universe does not give a fuck.

Kharma begs to differ.

Kharma begs to differ.

There isn't really any evidence for kharma. It's basically just (yet another) example of the human tendency to misinterpret chance occurrences. Good and bad things happen to every person on the planet. People also tend to do both "good" and "bad" things throughout the course of their lives. Logically, just by chance alone, some of the good things you do will be followed by something good happening to you, and some of the bad things you do will be followed by something bad happening to you. And of course, the undefined timeline for kharmic retribution makes it impossible to prove or disprove, so...meh.

I mean, feel free to believe in it, but there isn't actually a basis for it. So, assuming that reality is as it seems and that invisible religious forces aren't affecting our lives, the universe indeed doesn't give a fuck.

I'm not saying that to argue with you or anything...it's just how things are from an atheist point of view. Now, although the universe doesn't give a fuck, that doesn't mean you shouldn't let morality guide you. If you feel bad about killing animals to feed yourself, then by all means, don't eat meat.

I personally am a vegetarian. I don't have any real reasons as to why i am however so i won't be too much help for you. However, I chose to be vegetarian almost 2 years ago now (i was 14) and my reasoning was essentially, it's healthy either way, and i've neve been the biggest fan of steak or anything. I figured i'd just give it a go and if i desperately missed eating meat then i could always go back to eating it. I've never missed it that much though up to this point

I personally am a vegetarian. I don't have any real reasons as to why i am however so i won't be too much help for you. However, I chose to be vegetarian almost 2 years ago now (i was 14) and my reasoning was essentially, it's healthy either way, and i've neve been the biggest fan of steak or anything. I figured i'd just give it a go and if i desperately missed eating meat then i could always go back to eating it. I've never missed it that much though up to this point

What's the point though? Why stop eating meat altogether just because you "aren't the biggest fan of steak". People that go to extremes for no reason are...rather annoying, IMO. There are tons of amazing meat dishes out there...missing out on it just because you want to be "unique" as a vegeterian seems really crazy.

I am a vegetarian because I think it's fucking sick to stick a piece of meat that was once alive in my mouth and swallow it. I used to eat meat and I always felt a bit repulsed at the thought of chewing on a piece of flesh. I've also seen some pretty fucked up stuff they do to the animals that are eventually served to our faces.

How can you watch a cow wallow in its own feces then hung upside down and cut open while still conscious and happily eat its remains? I can't.

I am a vegetarian because I think it's fucking sick to stick a piece of meat that was once alive in my mouth and swallow it. I used to eat meat and I always felt a bit repulsed at the thought of chewing on a piece of flesh. I've also seen some pretty fucked up stuff they do to the animals that are eventually served to our faces.

How can you watch a cow wallow in its own feces then hung upside down and cut open while still conscious and happily eat its remains? I can't.

Cows don't wallow in their own feces, retard.

1: Watch this video (http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=earthlings&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#)
2. Stop eating meat
4. ????
5. PROFIT

1: Watch this video (http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=earthlings&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#)
2. Stop eating meat
4. ????
5. PROFIT

While I don't particularly approve of medical research on animals (ie. giving monkeys brain surgery and then observing their impairments), "respecting other animals" doesn't really dictate to me that we should stop eating meat. Most animals eat meat, and we're as much of an animal as a bear or tiger. Respect them by not killing them needlessly, but I don't see any reason to stop eating meat.

Obviously, if you feel badly enough about it that you can't bring yourself to eat meat...well, that's that. But people that don't really have much of a problem with the actual consumption of meat or animals being killed...don't be pussies.

While I don't particularly approve of medical research on animals (ie. giving monkeys brain surgery and then observing their impairments), "respecting other animals" doesn't really dictate to me that we should stop eating meat. Most animals eat meat, and we're as much of an animal as a bear or tiger. Respect them by not killing them needlessly, but I don't see any reason to stop eating meat.

Obviously, if you feel badly enough about it that you can't bring yourself to eat meat...well, that's that. But people that don't really have much of a problem with the actual consumption of meat or animals being killed...don't be pussies.

I'm not saying everyone should stop eating meat, that's silly.

But people eat way more meat then what's healthy and necessary. People eat meat every day, at every meal. Even if a meat-free alternative is just as accessible.

And when a tiger kills one of those antelope fuckers it's entirely different then when we kill a cow. Differences:
1. That antelope lived a full, free life before he was worked into the foodchain. The meat we kill is just that, meat. The cow you had for dinner last night didn't even have a life of it's own, it stood in a containment area, barely big enough for it to even turn around. They're treated like a product, and not a living thing. Factory farming is fucking balls.
2. If that tiger didn't kill for food it would die. Tigers are carnivores, they can't eat anything else. In today's society it's fucking easy to find non-meat alternatives and still be healthy. For financially stable families espesially, a vegitarian lifestyle is a peice of cake.
3. When a tiger kills some animal it's death is relitively quick. Messy, but effective. Animals that are put through factory farming have to go through fucking torture.
4. I forget what other points.

You say you don't see any reason to stop eating meat, but there isn't really any reason to keep eating meat. It's not like you're poor and starving and fighting for your next meal.

I'll give you the point about animals not necessarily getting to live their lives, though I don't think that's the case with farm animals. They aren't left inside all day...they basically do what they'd do in the wild: graze, shit, fuck, and sleep. I feel more sorry for horses, who have to sit in stables all day and carry around jackass humans.

There are a lot of arguments both for and against meat. The science on both sides does have some validity (its not 'bogus' like someone said earlier in the thread).

The reasons people are against meat is because new scientific evidence (as in <i>The China Study</i>) shows the healthiest diet you can possibly eat is free from animal proteins. This does not mean though that you can only eat Oreos (yes, they are vegan) for your whole life and be healthy. Both vegetarians and omnivores can live healthy or unhealthy lives by the quality and nutritional value of their foods. Also, a giant field can obviously raise MANY more plants that it can cows, especially things like corn which can be planted so close together, therefore more food circulating, cheaper price, its more environmentally friendly, etc.

And then there is also is the fact that some people want to live a life free from cruelty, while feeling healthy and full of life. After all, the root of the word 'vegetarian,' 'veget,' means 'lively' in latin.

By the way, xxombie, I don't see how you can be so against harming animal life, yet not have any problem devouring plant life. It's still life, regardless of the fact that it can't make noises or walk around.

They get their energy from the sun, they give us oxygen to live, so honestly, I'm curious how you can really justify eating plants. You try to justify not eating meat with all of this "you gotta respect life" bullshit, but the fact of the matter is that you just don't like knowing that furry animals are getting killed. Speaking of which, do you eat seafood?

^ Not to mention plants feel pain. They may not be sentient beings but they do experience trauma.

By the way, xxombie, I don't see how you can be so against harming animal life, yet not have any problem devouring plant life. It's still life, regardless of the fact that it can't make noises or walk around.

They get their energy from the sun, they give us oxygen to live, so honestly, I'm curious how you can really justify eating plants. You try to justify not eating meat with all of this "you gotta respect life" bullshit, but the fact of the matter is that you just don't like knowing that furry animals are getting killed. Speaking of which, do you eat seafood?

I will answer that question from my perspective although i know it wasn't directed at me. This is something that ive always considered especially considering my re-vitalized interest in vegetablism is largely derived from new found spiritual engagement and i dont believe this is something that natural science has the answer for, but first to your original statements on kharma.

This is relative because Kharma is soemthing that got me thinking about vegetablism.

Kharma is one of few Law's the Vedic's established, and it is a spiritual Law. This law is not subject to interpretation and exists in only one context; its original context which is the spiritual context of the law of kharma.

Modes of consciousness are fundamental to kharma, there are three modes.

The mode of ignorance
The mode of passion
The mode of goodness

Clearly the masses eat meat of a mode of ignorance- ignorance of spiritual knowledge or more specifically a lack of empathy for"sentient" creatures if you will, although thats not how i would term it.
Also the mode of passion "i will do this because it makes me feel good"
People in the mode of goodness in my oppinion are the vegeterians by and large -you can see meat eaters use ignorant and passionate justifications whilst vegetarians use justifications in the mode of goodness.

The idea behind kharma is the relationship between intentions and actions- or cost and concequence,

that is why people believe in luck- they dont understand kharma.

The frenchman [the matrix] (paraphrase) "Where others see luck; i see cost and consequence".

Kharma is a spiritual Law so spiritual principal's are key to it. If we use our free will, that we have been given by defying God then we are detracting from God. If we use our free will we are free to act, and are acting in the mode of passion or ignorance aswell as goodness, but a good person wants to always be good.

In retaliation to your "plant" question, an understanding of the soul is fundamental.

Essentially animalea have souls and plantae do not, yet they are both alive because they have the symptoms of life; Movement, Resperation, Sensitivity, Growth, Reproduction, Excretion and Nutrition (thx year 12 biology :D ); those are the similarities that unite them as living matter.

So then how can we justify killing and eating plants, when animals and plants are both alive?

The answer is simple, the explanation of the answer is not. Animals have a soul. There are various symptoms of the soul many of them are subtle many are not including intelligence, false ego, ego, initiative, imagination, personality ( there are many others but i cant recall or source off the top of my head). however consciousness is the most fundamental, what is definitive is that plants do not have a soul because they do not exhibit the symptoms of the soul. It is important to recognize that there is a key difference between human's and animals and that is consciousness; particularly being conscious of our own consciousness this is something that an animal does not have in the capacity that a human does; that is why animals cannot realize God and do not have morality.

Everything an animal does is in the mode of passion and ignorance, this does not digress or take away the fact they have a soul; they are just not conscious. That is why it is not intelligence that defines us from other animals, it is consciousness; because without it we cannot operate in the mode of goodness (satva in Sanskrit).

So in summary plants do not have a soul, so whilst their is life (including exhibition of the symptoms of life) and death(ceasing of the symptoms of life) for them that is all their is; they do not exhibit the symptoms of the soul. They are never operating in ignorance, in passion or in goodness. The more radical religious vedic elaboration on this in terms of kharma is based upon re-incarnation but i wont go into it, but know its very much part of the concept.

So when you look at what deviates human-animals from non-human animals you can see MOST humans are acting like any other animals MOST of the time because they are acting in the modes of ignorance and passion often. Therefore if you can justify killing an animal you can justify killing a man and vice versa.

You could very well understand this information and choose not to place value onto it, but just know you are not realizing your true human goodness.

And ontop of that theres all the enviromental and secular moral arguments against eating meat.

P.S i may not have explained this well im new to this sort of thing :)

1. That antelope lived a full, free life before he was worked into the foodchain. The meat we kill is just that, meat. The cow you had for dinner last night didn't even have a life of it's own, it stood in a containment area, barely big enough for it to even turn around. They're treated like a product, and not a living thing. Factory farming is fucking balls.

While that can be the case there are plenty of cows here living along side deer and mountain sheep;)

how bout instead of just being a veggie you only eat organic stuff. Organic meat is somewhat pricey so you'd still end up cutting back and all in all it will be healthier. or just eat humanely killed animals or something like that.

I've been vegetarian most of my life. As a kid I was kind of repulsed by the taste and texture of (most) meat, and just gradually gave it up. Things are more complicated now, I've bothered to educate myself about the meat / animal product industry, and also studied zoology at college, which I guess gave me a different perspective. I'm not particularly sentimental about fluffy animals, but I also don't feel like any short term pleasure I could potentially derive from eating meat is worth the amount of suffering your average farm animal goes through. It's usually a pretty miserable existance and death for them, modern farming techniques are fairly grim. Buy free range / organic animal products if you want to eat them, at least you know that there were some kind of welfare standards imposed.

I know most people couldn't really give a crap- they wanna stuff in their mouths whatever makes them feel good. Fair enough. I just feel like, these days, its so EASY to be vegetarian... there are so many alternatives. Not to mention it's healthier. Of course, improving farming standards and practices would also be good. But people have strange priorities :rolleyes:

Let's compare two common things: eating meat, and driving cars.

Both are liable to give you colon cancer, and both are pleasurable.

Sure, you can always stop driving cars and eating meat to prevent colon cancer and to be healthier to both yourself and the environment, but in the end you're still going to die from something stupid like a jugular papercut. You can't prevent everything bad from happening, so enjoy eating meat.

2. ???

3. Profit

Do people have souls? Are we not born of the same material? If you are growing, are you moving towards the light? What force drives a plant to the source? What stops one from ascending? If the soul of a person is their most essential and enduring feature, does it matter what you call it? Do plants have a similar mechanism for existence? What is the difference between the human organism and the floral one? To what end do we both strive?

Do people have souls? Are we not born of the same material? If you are growing, are you moving towards the light? What force drives a plant to the source? What stops one from ascending? If the soul of a person is their most essential and enduring feature, does it matter what you call it? Do plants have a similar mechanism for existence? What is the difference between the human organism and the floral one? To what end do we both strive?

Plants do not have a soul, because they do not exhibit the symptoms of the soul.

Even the stupidest animal in the world knows what it's supposed to eat.....right? This knowledge must be instinct then. We instinctively crave meat. Unless you were conceived from a weak sperm, go pick yourself up a steak. And don't feel bad about it.

I'm not saying everyone should stop eating meat, that's silly.

But people eat way more meat then what's healthy and necessary. People eat meat every day, at every meal. Even if a meat-free alternative is just as accessible.

And when a tiger kills one of those antelope fuckers it's entirely different then when we kill a cow. Differences:
1. That antelope lived a full, free life before he was worked into the foodchain. The meat we kill is just that, meat. The cow you had for dinner last night didn't even have a life of it's own, it stood in a containment area, barely big enough for it to even turn around. They're treated like a product, and not a living thing. Factory farming is fucking balls.
2. If that tiger didn't kill for food it would die. Tigers are carnivores, they can't eat anything else. In today's society it's fucking easy to find non-meat alternatives and still be healthy. For financially stable families espesially, a vegitarian lifestyle is a peice of cake.
3. When a tiger kills some animal it's death is relitively quick. Messy, but effective. Animals that are put through factory farming have to go through fucking torture.
4. I forget what other points.

You say you don't see any reason to stop eating meat, but there isn't really any reason to keep eating meat. It's not like you're poor and starving and fighting for your next meal.So then, what youre saying is:
1. Factory feedlot farming sucks balls.
2. Youre ignorant about nutrition and the viability of "meat substitutes".
3. Again, factory inhumane farming sucks balls, but here youre just wrong.
4. You have no other points.

Even the stupidest animal in the world knows what it's supposed to eat.....right? This knowledge must be instinct then. We instinctively crave meat. Unless you were conceived from a weak sperm, go pick yourself up a steak. And don't feel bad about it.
This.

Vegetarians are weak little fags.

It's not even healthy, let alone healthier than meat eating. Vegetarians are very pretentious.

It's not even healthy, let alone healthier than meat eating. Vegetarians are very pretentious.

I actually agree with you for once. Vegetarians usually end up having to supplement their diet with pills or expensive, hard-to-find crap because they aren't getting everything they need from vegetables.

animals exist for us to eat them, its a well known fact

I actually agree with you for once. Vegetarians usually end up having to supplement their diet with pills or expensive, hard-to-find crap because they aren't getting everything they need from vegetables.

This may be true but it's not an argument against vegetarianism. It's an argument against people who are ingnorant about their dietary needs becoming a vegetarian. If you're not a cretin and take a smidgin of time to research what you need and which foods contain which minerals then a vegetarian diet is healthier than the average man's ominivorous diet. Again, that's not a criticism of an omnivorous diet, just the average Westerners take on it.