It's my first winter where I am driving and I was just wondering if you guys had any tips. My car is rear wheel drive, which I've been told is worse in the snow/ice. No one has really taught me how to drive in the snow, or like how to best make turns to avoid spinning out, etc.

Would like to avoid doing shit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-roeYQPscSc

The amount of shit that first car hits is unbelievable. Imagine the fucking insurance payout from that. Her policy must've been canceled after that.

Drive slooooooooowly.

Don't tail gate, plenty of distance. Don't drink like a moron, or go tooo fast. Becareful on turns, sometimes you will slide, but even out the wheel carefully and slowly...just don't be an idiot.

Winter tires.

But I'm driving a truck for the first time in winter, and it's really no problem. Slow down before your corner and don't really give'er around around the corner(unless there is no one around, and your having fun;)) you'll have no problems.

Also as that video shows(I only watched the beginning), plan your route to avoid hills, and especially stopping on said hills.

Oh, and practice...Tearing up a parking lot for a while will give you the sort of experience you won't get on the road until it's too late;)

I have a 4wd truck so I end up having fun in the snow, but on your street when you leave give yourself lots of braking distance and stomp the brakes at about 10 or 15 mph to gauge the road conditions. From experience stomping the brakes makes things worse, but you want to see how well you'd fare in a worst case scenario. You'll want to gradually slow down and give yourself and the car in front of you room. I put like 5-6 ft between me and the car in front just in case the person behind spaced, starts braking late and needs the extra few feet of stopping distance.
You could also get all season tires in addition to everything else people above me suggested.
PRACTICE being most important in my opinion. Empty parking lots!

Full-throttle everywhere.

I have a 4wd truck so I end up having fun in the snow,...You could also get all season tires in addition to everything else people above me suggested.

As far as I'm concerned 4wd is just for playing(sounds like it might be what you do) or getting unstuck. Though I've been going through some pretty slick shit with a 2wd mazda.

Also, all seasons are on like 90% of cars most of the time. Anything but fresh snow will eat them for lunch. Well you can drive safely, but the mazda almost got stuck in a few inches of fresh snow, but with the winters nothing has slowed it down yet... That said nokian's all weather tire is the shit.

As for having fun I'm going a few hours away in my grandmas impreza so I might convince her I need to find a parking lot for practice;)

It's funny the comparison to North America and Europe, where you have your first car being RWD in a place that gets heavy snow.

See that pedal on the right? All the way down, all the time.

But seriously, just go slow. Tap the brakes occasionally to get a feel for the surface so you know how fast you can stop.

Get spiked tires. They really help.

Drive very slowly. In bad conditions, 10-20 mph is not uncommon.

Keep a good distance.

Break very softly.

Keep a shovel in your car, getting stuck in the snow is a bitch.

All these other guys are bullshitting you for a laugh man. Seriously. Full-throttle everywhere is the only way to safely negotiate the slippery surface. The theory behind it is that it gets you to where you're going faster y'see, so you're out in the dangerous conditions for a much shorter amount of time. GREATLY decreasing your chances of suffering an injury or damaging your vehicle.

Drive safe.

All these other guys are bullshitting you for a laugh man. Seriously. Full-throttle everywhere is the only way to safely negotiate the slippery surface. The theory behind it is that it gets you to where you're going faster y'see, so you're out in the dangerous conditions for a much shorter amount of time. GREATLY decreasing your chances of suffering an injury or damaging your vehicle.

Drive safe.

Yeah, I say run the stop signs and red lights as well.

The longer you are out there, the likelier you are to get in an accident.

Yeah, I say run the stop signs and red lights as well.

The longer you are out there, the likelier you are to get in an accident.
Those are advanced techniques man. He needs to get the basics down first.

taking corners sideways gives you better visbility, thus being safer.

It's a travesty that they will hand out licenses to people who don't know this shit! Fucking government.

Be smooth.

Drive slooooooooowly.

Nothing much more you can do, unless you have a truck then your in the clear with store tires/ something or other.

If you're hardcore, you can do this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ujSeo3rPL.jpg

It really all depends on if you're RWD,AWD or FWD. Everyone has made good points of driving slow that's the most important. Another thing is DO NOT PANIC! I've seen way too many people fuck their cars up because they panic. The best piece of advice I can ever give anyone is to take your vehicle to a very wide open parking lot with a decent surface and nothing you can hang up on such as curbs and such and just cut loose. Get a feel for how your vehicle handles on ice/snow. Learn how to counter steer, and how much. Learning how to compensate for under steer/overseer/snap back is a valuable tool. Also learning how much you can give it before it breaks loose into a slide is something you NEED to know.

The problem I see most of the time with people and AWD and RWD is that they almost never give it enough gas when they start sliding through a turn. Most of the times brakes are a BAD thing in a slide. Giving it steady throttle and/or more throttle will help keep the slide controlled and push you through it with counter steer (90% of the time).

Another key point to make and learn how to deal with is braking before a turn. You want to be down to a reasonable speed before you even start your turn. You want all your braking done before you even start to enter into a turn. Braking into a turn is a great way to fuck yourself with under steer, and if you aren't ready and know how to react can cause you to panic and make things even worse for yourself.

Same goes with coming out of a turn. Conditions are going to effect when you start back up on the throttle coming out of a turn. Too soon to hard is going to spin you, or throw you into a full sideways slide.

Don't be afraid to get a little aggressive on it too. After you get to know your vehicle, it's pretty fun to start a slide early, and just cruise around a corner with the back end out, scaring the living hell out of everyone around you. But being aggressive has it's advantages too. You control when you start the slide, and being a little aggressive will keep the slide controlled to a point.

Be smooth.

Also this, you want to be smooth with all your steering and throttle changes. Too much too soon, or too much too fast can cost you some fat cash in repairs and headaches for weeks.

Have fun and drive safe!

I learned how to control my car this way, and learned how to read the terrain a bit with sight and feel of the car. It's become a ritual for me and the buddy's to take our cars out on the first good snow fall and just go nuts. 3-4 car drift lines around neighborhoods. Just the other night we tore up a baseball field. I'm surprised the cops weren't called on us, because there were houses maybe about 50 yards away, and our cars are pretty obnoxious, especially at 5k RPM's.

All pretty decent advice..... just make sure to leave 2-4 car lengths between you and the person in front of you, watch out for understeer... since you have RWD, if your car is tending to plow straight rather than turn, you can give it some gas and bring the ass end around.

The keyword overall is PRACTICE. Now that I've got like 5 solid winters under my belt I not only am confident on bad roads but I LOVE driving in shitty conditions. RWD is great and I hate hearing people bitch about it, it's like.... just cause' you fail at driving doesn't mean RWD fails... I feel much safer having oversteer on command than the opposite. The biggest disadvantage I've had to deal with is weight distribution, which was easily solved by 250lbs of sand in the trunk... and in more drastic situations (stuck) by having a few people sit in the open trunk.

Nothing much more you can do, unless you have a truck then your in the clear with store tires/ something or other.

No, you only need a truck in snow if it a foot and a half deep. Also trucks can be a bit iffy with practically no weight over the drive wheels. Snow tires make the difference more than what type of vehicle it is. Sure some one in a subaru probably can take a corner faster, but we both have to drive with the 2wd pickups on slicks in mind...

Oh, also don't be one of those douchebags that blow past be going 50 over the limit in a snowstorm because of your super awesome 4wd capabilities. While you may make it deeper snow you don't have an advantage in stopping distance over the next guy.

Oh, by the way, it is often easier to change lanes than it is to brake to a complete stop. If possible, try to avoid accidents by changing direction rather than laying on the brakes and praying.

A few bags of sand is a good start. Be smooth, use as little brake as you can get away with same with throttle. make sure to give yourself at least twice as much room when stopping and keep off the next guys ass. If you do that you should make it ok.

Ok. Two things.

One:

FWD/AWD/RWD doesn't matter when trying to drive safely, that shit is negligible when braking, and negligible when cornering without throttle. It is negligible in any situation where you are the average driver and you aren't giving the car any power. In the snow, when you lose control, giving the car more juice is not the way out. Therefore in a car, when losing control, the drive wheels do not matter.

AWD can be more fun if you know what you are doing because you can get the fucker moving out of turns and things like that - but that is irrelevant to driving safely.

Two:

The problem I see most of the time with people and AWD and RWD is that they almost never give it enough gas when they start sliding through a turn. Most of the times brakes are a BAD thing in a slide. Giving it steady throttle and/or more throttle will help keep the slide controlled and push you through it with counter steer (90% of the time).

Other than braking being a bad thing, which is true in the majority of situations, I must strongly disagree with this paragraph.

In a slide that you will see in the snow where the rears have lost traction, giving it more throttle is only going to spin the rears up faster. Since you are running in nearly pure kinetic friction, the force applied by the rear tyres is defined by the relative motion between the contact patch and the road. The faster the tyre is spinning the more that relative motion becomes forward/backward, and the less it is side to side.

In a typical slide, the side to side forces generated by the rear tyres ALWAYS provide both a) a stabilizing moment that tries to get your car pointed straight and b) a lateral force that tries to get your car going straight. Spinning up the tyres and thus reducing this side to side force is going to only reduce these two effects, which is a bad thing.

Meanwhile, you are adding more longitudinal force, accelerating your car. A fast moving car cannot take the same turn that perhaps the same car moving more slowly can take. Faster is bad.

By the way if, instead, the rear wheels have grip but the fronts are sliding, then the rears will do nothing more than take care of themselves and follow the fronts. Applying throttle in a RWD car will take load off the fronts, making their situation worse. Applying the throttle in a FWD car will take load off the fronts AND add additional traction requirements to the tyres that already have nothing more to give. Making the situation MUCH worse. Applying the brakes in a low-front-traction situation will almost always not help, though applying just the rears (through, say, a handbrake) could help if you don't accidentally apply too much and break the rears loose too.

TL,DR:

1) While trying to drive safely, don't worry about which wheels are the drive wheels. The only thing that will help you with is trying to drive fast. It may also help if you are an idiot and give it too much throttle causing yourself to lose control. A FWD or AWD will be more forgiving to that.

2) Don't apply throttle while trying to regain control of a slide.

I live where it rarely snows, and I see a lot of people who don't know WTF they're doing. The number one reason I see people run into things/people... If you're going more than 5mph or so, do not jerk the steering wheel. If you're going to run into a fire hydrant or something, don't freak and crank the wheel, just smoothly steer the direction you want to go. If you crank the wheel, you will lose traction and go straight into whatever you were trying to avoid.

I live where it rarely snows, and I see a lot of people who don't know WTF they're doing. The number one reason I see people run into things/people... If you're going more than 5mph or so, do not jerk the steering wheel. If you're going to run into a fire hydrant or something, don't freak and crank the wheel, just smoothly steer the direction you want to go. If you crank the wheel, you will lose traction and go straight into whatever you were trying to avoid.

This is very true.

In the beginning of any turn, there are two stresses the tyres need friction to handle:

1) lateral acceleration.

2) Actually making the car 'yaw' or rotate.

At high speeds, the force required to create and sustain the yaw rate is pretty minimal and easily forgotten about.

At low speeds, as anyone has noticed you will be putting a lot of turns on the steering wheel before the same lateral acceleration, because there is a lot more yaw. So the yaw is significant now.

At low speeds in snow, when you jerk the steering wheel, there just isn't any traction available to jerk the car into the required yaw rate to match the new steer angle. It simply doesn't work and as DTP said, you will understeer in a wonderfully straight line.

...In the snow, when you lose control, giving the car more juice is not the way out...In a typical slide...

The thing about driving in winter is it is not typical;) FWD seems to 'swim' at low speeds, as in turning and giving it some gas can bring your front end that way.

Also a little gas and fishtailing was the way for me to get out of a bus's way the other day. Driving to suit your cars setup is vital when the road can go from clean asphalt to a sheet of ice instantly. Knowing that your fwd will go strait into a tree if you try to get out of someones way, and a rwd will hit said tree sideways is huge when you can miss a corner at 10km/h;)

That said, you are right there is no difference in the way you should drive before things start to go sour;)

Nitrous would probably help too.

The thing about driving in winter is it is not typical;) FWD seems to 'swim' at low speeds, as in turning and giving it some gas can bring your front end that way.

Also a little gas and fishtailing was the way for me to get out of a bus's way the other day. Driving to suit your cars setup is vital when the road can go from clean asphalt to a sheet of ice instantly. Knowing that your fwd will go strait into a tree if you try to get out of someones way, and a rwd will hit said tree sideways is huge when you can miss a corner at 10km/h;)

That said, you are right there is no difference in the way you should drive before things start to go sour;)

By typical I meant rear end sliding, front end not.

And btw, what you are saying follows the same logic as someone assuming that the kickass drift they pulled let them get through that corner (on asphalt) at higher than normal speeds.

No, the kickass drift may have gotten you through that corner, but you could have done it a lot more easily without said drift, and you could have done it at a higher speed.

Just because it worked one way doesn't mean it can't work better another way.

BTW, I think I made a few references to the 'average driver', and I do mean that. A professional driver can make use of transients and the like to work magic with the car in ways that may seem counterintuitive. It is possible for example that gassing it can help you avoid an obstacle. Would I reccomend even attempting to do so for the average (>98% of drivers) driver? Absolutely not.

....No, the kickass drift may have gotten you through that corner, but you could have done it a lot more easily without said drift, and you could have done it at a higher speed.

Just because it worked one way doesn't mean it can't work better another way...

...It is possible for example that gassing it can help you avoid an obstacle. Would I reccomend even attempting to do so for the average (>98% of drivers) driver? Absolutely not.

Meh, you might be right, but that's also assuming the average driver is light enough on the gas to not spin at all. And actually didn't you decide that in rallys and other low traction situations sliding can be faster last time these discussions were going on here.

Also, there is probably a smoother more effective way to do everything anyone does on the street, but the thing is, when shit needs to be done there is no time to bust out a calculator, you either turn more, give it more gas, or try to slow down. Sure had managed to control the gas well enough that the tires were using 100% of their potential it would have been faster than sliding a little, but then we come back to the term 'average driver'. Can we do that?

As for not recommending an average driver give it gas, don't limit their options. It's not like you'll lose control the second you touch the gas. I've seen it save a few people and cars before.

It's early so that might not make any sense.

I noticed how you assumed that first driver in that video was a woman......

Nereth, I agree with you on most points but I have to say.... in a situation where the car is fiercely understeering, getting the ass end around whether by throttle or handbrake can make the difference between a smash up and a close call. Granted, I have more complex driving experience than the 'average'.... but it doesn't take a huge amount of skill or concentration in the actual event, you just have to not panic. HOWEVER... it won't ALWAYS save you, it's more of an option.

I can think of about 5 or 6 occasions where I would have curbed or slid into another lane, but I swung the back end out and managed to change my trajectory. I can also think of one time years ago when I was in a big FWD oldsmobile with foot-handbrake... went to corner on a downhill, hit pure ice, realized I couldn't move the front end at all... and used my last second to fumble at the handbrake.... then POW right over the curb and clipped a tree. I had plenty of room and time in this situation that if I had RWD/AWD or a proper handbrake (Or if I had been prepared/aware to use the shitty handbrake), I could have just busted a big ass drift rather than understeered right off the road.

EDIT: Also, in a FWD, with the back end out, you can give it throttle and the car will pull in the direction of the drive wheels. So if you combine handbrake and throttle, aim your nose the right way... you can actually change your overall direction pretty drastically AND quickly.

I've never had that happen before like. If I get the back end out in my FWD car, I usually have to left foot brake to shift the weight of the car forwards onto the drive wheels, if I give it throttle it usually just ends up making the spin worse.

From my understanding of FWD cars, you need to get traction back onto the front wheels, not fanny about trying to step the back end out, which if the car is built properly, should be an immense task in a FWD car in itself.

If you were to give it throttle (from what I understand from one of Nereth's lectures a while ago) the front wheels should be trying to steer (assuming you are turning them to try and set the car back straight) and drive the car, which will just overpower the tyres and do sweet fuck all.

^?? I was talking Understeer (loss of front traction/'plowing') rather than losing the back end (oversteer). Applying the brakes to try and transfer weight onto the front will seldom get your car under control in time (in advanced cases of understeer). What you do by breaking out the back end is attempt to change the overall direction you're going, once your front end is aiming more where it needs to be, you then apply throttle to pull the car in that direction. A FWD vehicle will tend to 'pull' the back end into line (understeer) when the gas is applied. By doing this you can change the overall heading of your car, rather than simply continuing to go forward until you regain traction or hit something. Even if the wheels are spinning or otherwise lacking full traction, they are still applying *some* force.

Applying the throttle in a FWD will NOT make the back end come out more. Applying the brake can, but it depends. If you want to see it in action, throw your back end out with the handbrake, then punch the gas. The drive wheels will attempt to bring the back end in. As for bringing the back end out in a FWD, it is simple with a handbrake... tougher with one of those footy-handbrakes as it is tough to engage/disengage.

None of this is 'absolute', it is just what I have observed or done personally. I'm not recommending anything... as a matter of fact, if you were to turn the car sideways and still go over a curb or hit a tree, you could fuck up the car MORE than you would have.... I'm just saying that I have regained control by doing this. I also, as mentioned, crashed once because I didn't react in time to do it... granted if I had been driving carefully I may not have suffered massive understeer in the first place.

I think that's the heart of the matter.... drive carefully in the first place if you're unsure or don't want to risk it.

Meh, you might be right, but that's also assuming the average driver is light enough on the gas to not spin at all. And actually didn't you decide that in rallys and other low traction situations sliding can be faster last time these discussions were going on here.

I am the first to admit I don't understand the mechanics in rallies on dirt and mud and such.

In rallies, you have incredibly tight turns were transients are a huge part. More importantly, On dirt, the tyres can 'dig in', and also the ground itself shifts under the tyre hugely. That to me seems to make the tyres slip angle and ratio a much smaller part of the force it generates. I think by sliding, rally drivers use the tyres as rudders, which may be superior.

Now, I haven't driven in snow, but I have been in cars in snow, and I have watched the odd youtube video, and while driving responsibly, the cars do not kick up huge plumes of snow in various directions, they slide over the top of it. This makes it more like a very low friction asphalt situation, then dirt or mud.

If your snow is pluming up into the air like a rally driver on gravel, then my usual logic does not apply, and feel free to ignore it.

Also, there is probably a smoother more effective way to do everything anyone does on the street, but the thing is, when shit needs to be done there is no time to bust out a calculator, you either turn more, give it more gas, or try to slow down. Sure had managed to control the gas well enough that the tires were using 100% of their potential it would have been faster than sliding a little, but then we come back to the term 'average driver'. Can we do that?

Protip: Just turning the steering wheel and not worrying about the throttle is much easier and doesn't require a calculator. There is one reason using the throttle can have an advantage over not doing so in a rear wheel slide, and the one time I did some math to see if that was better (Unfortunately I don't remember why it turned out to be a dumb idea, but I do remember laughing at the absurdity of it, if thats enough for you), it took a whole lot of calculator to optimize that situation, where the standard situation pretty much does it itself.

The thing about using the steering wheel is, due to the mechanics of a car in a turn, the rear wheels need absolutely no attention at all, and there equilibrium lies at the point where they are doing exactly what they should be doing, no improvement possible. They also have a very strong tendency to find that equilibrium.

Gassing it in a slide is taking over that tendency and putting that shit on 'manual'. That's tough, and the problem I am trying to point to is that it also leads to a less optimum situation in the end (less useful acceleration in whatever direction).

As for not recommending an average driver give it gas, don't limit their options. It's not like you'll lose control the second you touch the gas. I've seen it save a few people and cars before.

I've seen not doing it save more.

It's early so that might not make any sense.

'Sok, it made sense.


-----------------------------------

Nereth, I agree with you on most points but I have to say.... in a situation where the car is fiercely understeering, getting the ass end around whether by throttle or handbrake can make the difference between a smash up and a close call. Granted, I have more complex driving experience than the 'average'.... but it doesn't take a huge amount of skill or concentration in the actual event, you just have to not panic. HOWEVER... it won't ALWAYS save you, it's more of an option.

I can think of about 5 or 6 occasions where I would have curbed or slid into another lane, but I swung the back end out and managed to change my trajectory. I can also think of one time years ago when I was in a big FWD oldsmobile with foot-handbrake... went to corner on a downhill, hit pure ice, realized I couldn't move the front end at all... and used my last second to fumble at the handbrake.... then POW right over the curb and clipped a tree. I had plenty of room and time in this situation that if I had RWD/AWD or a proper handbrake (Or if I had been prepared/aware to use the shitty handbrake), I could have just busted a big ass drift rather than understeered right off the road.

EDIT: Also, in a FWD, with the back end out, you can give it throttle and the car will pull in the direction of the drive wheels. So if you combine handbrake and throttle, aim your nose the right way... you can actually change your overall direction pretty drastically AND quickly.

In a car that is setup so incredibly badly to understeer so incredibly easy and with tyres with a very small difference between there peak traction ability and there full kinetic friction, maybe this is true. I honestly wouldn't know how to set a car up so badly if I tried though, we are talking having 2-3x more grip in the back than in the front.

But in other cases, when the front is slipping, the rear will take care of itself. If you then proceed to step the rear out to help the front, you will only now have two ends of the car slipping. Perhaps if you instead steered back to center with the front to get the best you can out of the front, it would work better. I know this is counter intuitve and tough to do during understeer, because I've been in the situation myself. On the other hand is it possible that after stepping out the rear, you countersteer (as you should) to maintain the slide, and in doing so restore the optimum slip angle of the front end? This would be achieving the same purpose as just steering into the turn in the original situation, though in a roundabout way, and while risking the rear end.

Other than that, and continuing my assumption that driving on snow is equivalent to driving on asphalt with very low traction, I can only post this to continue my point:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-MT5N9GLkys

Like some other people said, just practice a bit and be smooth.

Most importantly- if you can't drive in snow, don't try. Practice til you're confident in yourself. There's nothing worse than some nervous wreck going at turtle speeds, holding up everyone else just cuz they couldn't accept their own limitations.

When i throw my cherokee in 4wd it locks the front and rear axles together, so braking bias is equal.

I get better more controlled braking while in 4wd because depending on the circumstance the fronts or rear lock while sliding without 4wd.

Drive slooooooooowly.

That's the biggy. I've been driving in Alaska weather for nigh onto twenty years and have never had a collision worth reporting--I DID hit a moose once, but I slowed down in time enough that neither my car nor the moose was damaged.

Also--ALWAYS drive with your lights on; avoid in-vehicle distractions like music, eating, or intense conversations. If you don't have ABS, pump your brakes gently when you slow down.

The amount of debate in this thread over how to best drive in snow makes me giggle. I think part of it is there are more than one way to skin a cat, and part of it is that no one really knows for sure what is best.

I know to drive slow and carefully but some people take that too far, and will be going 15 mph down a main road when conditions do not warrant such slow driving.

Well its warmed up now and has just been raining lately, so I don't have to worry about it for now. I'll probably go back to school actually before it snows again.

My car has fishtailed on me twice. Once very unexpectedly on a main road, I think I hit black ice as I was coming to a stop at a red light. I did swing into the other lane but luckily there were no cars there and I quickly regained control. The other time happened on my street after I had just turned onto it because it was a fucking ice rink. My city is not salting side streets this year to save money. But again, no big deal, and I managed to get out of it fairly easy. I don't really know what I did...I think i just didn't hit the gas or the brake, and, say the ass end of the car swung out to the left, so then I turned the wheel to the left and the car straightened out. But I swear that is the opposite of what they always say to do - "turn into the slide." To me that sounds like they mean if your car starts to head right, as mine did because the ass swung out to the left, I am to turn the wheel right. Or I've been misunderstanding that saying for years. Either way, all is well.

The amount of debate in this thread over how to best drive in snow makes me giggle. I think part of it is there are more than one way to skin a cat, and part of it is that no one really knows for sure what is best.

I know to drive slow and carefully but some people take that too far, and will be going 15 mph down a main road when conditions do not warrant such slow driving.

Well its warmed up now and has just been raining lately, so I don't have to worry about it for now. I'll probably go back to school actually before it snows again.

My car has fishtailed on me twice. Once very unexpectedly on a main road, I think I hit black ice as I was coming to a stop at a red light. I did swing into the other lane but luckily there were no cars there and I quickly regained control. The other time happened on my street after I had just turned onto it because it was a fucking ice rink. My city is not salting side streets this year to save money. But again, no big deal, and I managed to get out of it fairly easy. I don't really know what I did...I think i just didn't hit the gas or the brake, and, say the ass end of the car swung out to the left, so then I turned the wheel to the left and the car straightened out. But I swear that is the opposite of what they always say to do - "turn into the slide." To me that sounds like they mean if your car starts to head right, as mine did because the ass swung out to the left, I am to turn the wheel right. Or I've been misunderstanding that saying for years. Either way, all is well.

If the ass goes left, you turn the wheel to the left.

The idea is to make the front follow the back.

Physics explanation:

In a slide the car generally keeps going in an approximate straight line. As the rear end starts moving to the left, the whole car starts turning clockwise (from top view), such that the front wheels are pointing to the right of where the car is going. The front wheels thus start creating a force to the right, which, if you take moments about the CG, you will find, creates a clockwise torque - which matches the clockwise rotation of the car, and exacerbates the situation.

By turning the wheels to the right, past the centerline of the car, so that they are now pointing right relative to the direction the car is moving, the torque is anticlockwise, and works to reduce the angular velocity of the car, and eventually reverses it, so the car is spinning anti-clockwise. It spins anticlockwise for a moment, till it is pointed around about straight, then hopefully you reverse the steering again and catch it headed straight. If you don't do this last step you will start sliding in the other direction now, and if you string a couple of these together, you get a fishtail.

By the way, during this process, the rear wheels are always generating a torque in the direction that stabilizes the car. They're helpful that way.

Meh I'm to tired to respond to nereth right now, but who cares, countersteering is the right answer in that situation.

I have another tip for winter driving too. Don't drive a new vehicle for the first real length of time on the highway. I drove my grandmas imprezza home for about 3 1/2 hours, and at least one lane was clean pavement, so I went slightly over the limit of 110 most of the way. Occasionally I'd come up on someone doing about 70 so I'd pass on compact snow, but twice I looked down to see I was doing 130-40:o Fuck what would I have done if a moose decided to stroll down the road. The car didn't care at all though, didn't notice any difference to clean pavement besides a little nervousness I was doing 140 in my grandmas car on ice while she sat beside me.

Oh, and luckily the time I was going about 130 there was a undercover parked at a rest stop, but he wasn't in his car;)

...Physics explanation:...

Haha, that is great. Did I double post...oops

^ The way my dad tried to explain it to me was that in a rear wheel drive car, one of the reasons you get more sliding and fishtailing shit is because when the car slips on the ice or snow, it tries to correct itself with the rear wheels driving it, trying to get in front of the front wheels. The act of them trying to get in front of the front wheels is the spinning out. This doesn't happen in a front wheel drive car because the car is always being pulled behind the drive wheels, so to correct itself, it just straightens out.

Something like that...

And yeah, it would seem to be common sense to turn the wheel to the left if your ass swings out to the left. But the way people talk about it like "omg dont panic and turn INTO the slide!" makes it sound like some kind of trick that doesn't feel right but works. What the fuck else could you do in that situation?

^ The way my dad tried to explain it to me was that in a rear wheel drive car, one of the reasons you get more sliding and fishtailing shit is because when the car slips on the ice or snow, it tries to correct itself with the rear wheels driving it, trying to get in front of the front wheels. The act of them trying to get in front of the front wheels is the spinning out. This doesn't happen in a front wheel drive car because the car is always being pulled behind the drive wheels, so to correct itself, it just straightens out.

Something like that...

And yeah, it would seem to be common sense to turn the wheel to the left if your ass swings out to the left. But the way people talk about it like "omg dont panic and turn INTO the slide!" makes it sound like some kind of trick that doesn't feel right but works. What the fuck else could you do in that situation?

I've heard the explanation of your dad before, but it's kind of false.

The rear wheels of any car always provide a stabilizing moment about the CG of the car, no exceptions. In this way they are like the fins of a dart. The front, if left alone, will always provide a destabilizing moment, just like the wings of a dart if we mounted them on the front instead of the back of the dart - fortunately we don't leave them alone, we use the steering wheel to make sure they too, provide a stabilizing moment in a spin.That is the nature of counter steering.

Lots of things can create a destabilizing moment. Turning the steering wheel into an oridnary turn creates one - that moment is what creates a yaw velocity, and is thus necessary. As soon as a yaw velocity is created, the rear wheels gain a 'slip angle', begin creating a stabilizing moment, and will reach an equilibrium with the fronts.

So how do spin outs happen?

Well, obviously, if the stabilizing moment from the rear is less than the destabilizing moment from the front, you will start getting a net moment on the car which will accelerate it in yaw. The car starts spinning. Many things can cause the rear to not be able to 'handle' the destabilizing moment that the front creates. They all center around the rears not having enough traction. Here are some examples:

- A car set up so the rear end has less grip than the front - while the front still has grip to create its destabilizing the moment, the rear will run out and the car will subsequently spin. A well designed car is generally not set up this way.

- The rear end goes over a patch of ice,a bump, or a low traction surface, beginning a yaw. If, by the time they are back on a normal surface, they have massive slip angle of, for example, 30 degrees (which is well beyond their optimum, in general tyres do their best work in the region of 5-10 degrees), then they won't be able to keep up with the fronts, which may still be nearer the optimum.

- Heres one big reason RWD cars are more prone to spin out: If you gun it, and use all the tyres available traction accelerating the car, then none (or very little) of it is left for longitudinal force. It's the longitudinal force that supplies the stabilizing moment, and without it, you effectively are flying a dart back to front and hoping it will keep pointing the right way.

BTW: A FWD, depending on where the steering wheel is pointed, can make a small stabilizing moment when you give it some gas - it's not very large though, and you might just find yourself spinning out the fronts. It does lower the maximum destabilizing moment the fronts can do, though, and it transfers some load to the rears which will help them do there job better.

Why do people make a conscious decision to "turn into the slide" rather than just know how to drive and make corrections? Doesn't turning into the slide mean to straighten the car out?

If you're driving to fast and you're careening toward a guard rail there is no amount of braking or steering finesse you can do to avoid hitting. Drive slow, learn limits, slam the breaks every once in a while.

Why do people make a conscious decision to "turn into the slide" rather than just know how to drive and make corrections? Doesn't turning into the slide mean to straighten the car out?

If you're driving to fast and you're careening toward a guard rail there is no amount of braking or steering finesse you can do to avoid hitting. Drive slow, learn limits, slam the breaks every once in a while.

Slamming the breaks is a terrible idea.

I am sure he means in a parking lot/empty road to get a feel for stopping distance, or like I do almost every time I'm out, try to see if your retarded abs is ever going to work.