In light of the break in the ceasefire and the recent Israeli air strikes on Gaza and the resulting 200+ dead, the need for a lasting solution to this conflict is more apparent than ever. What would you propose to solve it?

To start off, here's a few of my thoughts.

Firstly, recognise the West Bank (1967 borders) as a country. The UN has demonstrated its willingness to make superficial criticisms of Israel and support for the Palestinian West Bank many times before, so I see no reason why they would be averse to this. This would demonstrate to the Palestinian people (particularly of Gaza) that the peaceful diplomatic route is a viable option, and that the violent route is harmful to the cause. Then, propose to the Fatah government a conditional membership to the EU, with the major condition being that the security forces can demonstrate that they are doing all with in their power to tackle the remnants extremism in the West Bank. Cite the policing of Jenin as a model to be followed. Create a one mile strip of no mans land (on Palestinian territory) between the two controlled by the UN. Treat any incursion by Israeli forces into the West Bank as a declaration of war to be met with a full economic boycott.

Secondly, cease all state level trade with Israel and increase the tax on all goods imported from there. Increase the supply of food and medical supplies to the Gaza strip through the Rafa crossing on the Egyptian border and increase sustainable smart economic aid to the West Bank.

I'd realize that the problem has nothing do with America and that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are enemies of our great nation. For this reason, I'd deport all arabs and Jews and cut off all aid to both countries.

Israel will not be satisfied until it has taken much more land from the Palestinians. That is a fate the Palestinians can not accept. Israel repeatedly defies UN resolutions with no response by the UN.

Then they wonder why they're persecuted against.

Then they wonder why they're persecuted against.

There's more to it than that. The Jews are literally children of the devil (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:9;&version=49;), they can't sleep without doing evil. Naturally, their malevolent behavior forms resentment among non-Jews.

Chimro deporting them is a good idea, but using them to build more infrastructure and to clean the interior of their nations so that Americans can inhabit them is a better idea. Once they're done doing that we can auction them off as slaves or simply burn them. Win win situation.

I'm not completely against Glassification...

KTALGSTO...always an option to a greater or lesser degree.

Just nuke all of them. So tired of hearing about it.

We have thus: 2 votes for the Glassification

Can we have 3? 3? 3? 4 or more?

Nuke Israel.

- ♫.i.b.y.v.n.t.h.♫
http://www.nocleanfeed.com/

You are all idiots! No wonder America is sinking into the abys.

I hope you keep your xenophobic ways when the US economy collapses and needs help from the rest of the world.

You are all idiots! No wonder America is sinking into the abys.

I hope you keep your xenophobic ways when the US economy collapses and needs help from the rest of the world.

DC needs nuking too! ;) You know it's true!

Just nuke all of them. So tired of hearing about it.

Have fun when they nuke you back. ;)

there is no way to solve the conflict peacefully. the hatred between the two is almost written into their DNA. the only way to end it would be to exterminate one side or the other.

but if you nuke the Palestinians then that will just incite another Islamic country (or all of them) to take up the fight and avenge their brothers. so you would have to nuke them as well. then the western Muslims would riot and you would have to kill them as well.

if you nuke the Jews then their allies in the US and Europe will instigate more invasions of the middle east which could solidify the hatred they already have for the west. then you'd have to nuke the middle east. plus all western muslims...blah blah blah.....

fuck it, fuck them. they want to kill each other let them. just sit back, crack open a beer and watch the show.

Nuke Israel.

- ♫.i.b.y.v.n.t.h.♫
http://www.nocleanfeed.com/

This.

And motherfucking saturate every square inch of their soil with nuclear warheads so that they can't retaliate.

This.

And motherfucking saturate every square inch of their soil with nuclear warheads so that they can't retaliate.

Yes, the rest of the world will love that.

Yes, the rest of the world will love that.

Sarcasm is fucking useless

Yes, the rest of the world will love that.

Who the fuck cares? Nobody can fuck with us.

Just need to do some false flag missions to get the tensions high enough for them to nuke each other.

Stop aid to both
Pull out all American and British resources and people
Destroy the border wall on our way out
Allow both sides to fight it out until so many people are lost that either a compromise is met or one side annihilates the other
Post conflict, punish either one (probably both) for any war crimes committed
Save the surviving journalists from both sides
Create a documentary and DVD box set about the conflict


... problem fucking solved.

Let Iran turn that desert to glass.

Israel is a significant contributor to science, technology, and business. How about we stop allowing the double standards for islam? The people of palestine are ethically, philosophically, and morally challenged, they are trapped by irrational beliefs. They have courage, heart, as much a will to live as everyone else, but it's about time we stop ignoring the root cause of their ignorance. Blaming israel for using violence to defend itself, because it's perfectly ethical to use violence in self-defense.

Stop aid to both
Pull out all American and British resources and people
Destroy the border wall on our way out
Allow both sides to fight it out until so many people are lost that either a compromise is met or one side annihilates the other
Post conflict, punish either one (probably both) for any war crimes committed
Save the surviving journalists from both sides
Create a documentary and DVD box set about the conflict


... problem fucking solved.

I think deep down, everyone knows that pulling out would mean israel owns the shit out of anyone that fucks with them. Really, we're just in it to defend the arabs, because they're like kids poking a landmine with a stick.

Israel is a significant contributor to science, technology, and business. How about we stop allowing the double standards for islam? The people of palestine are ethically, philosophically, and morally challenged, they are trapped by irrational beliefs. They have courage, heart, as much a will to live as everyone else, but it's about time we stop ignoring the root cause of their ignorance. Blaming israel for using violence to defend itself, because it's perfectly ethical to use violence in self-defense.

Are you saying it is "ethical" for the Israelis to moan about the Holocaust & still want the creaky remaining Nazi war criminals harassed, but to allow Israelis war criminals & war crimes to not only go scot free but in some cases get medals & celebratory plaques?

Interesting.

And the Israelis who acknowledge the propaganda & lies, the ethnic cleansing of the people of Palestine in the creation of Israel? Why does Israel get off free? When their crimes are fairly contemporaneous with those of the Nazis.

Nazis = crimes of living memory

Israelis = "Hey! You can't live in the past! What happened in the creation of Israel? A. Long. Time. Ago. 1948? Ancient History, maaaan!"

I agree with one of the previous posts, think about it, there are about 13 million jews left, thats IT. and as of '07 there are an estimated 1.2 billion muslims. not all of them hate jews, and not all jews hate muslims. BUT SERIOUSLY. I MEAN COME ON?!?!?!? THATS LIKE A 10:1 RATIO!!! the palestinians are just throwing human flesh against the iron walls of israel. just take away the rules and the wall, and let it happen, just let it happen.

The people of palestine are ethically, philosophically, and morally challenged

How can you declare another group of peoples morals as wrong?

Especially when the jews claim that patch of land was given to them by god.

I think deep down, everyone knows that pulling out would mean israel owns the shit out of anyone that fucks with them. Really, we're just in it to defend the arabs, because they're like kids poking a landmine with a stick.

Yes thats why you give so much aid to Palestine compared to Israel and why the U.S describes the Israeli actions as terrorist yet turns a blind eye to Palestinian aggression. Seriously, I've never witnessed so much bullshit finely compacted into a mere two sentences, you deserve some kind of a medal.

Yes thats why you give so much aid to Palestine compared to Israel and why the U.S describes the Israeli actions as terrorist yet turns a blind eye to Palestinian aggression. Seriously, I've never witnessed so much bullshit finely compacted into a mere two sentences, you deserve some kind of a medal.

Actually you merely upheld my point. Palestinian aggression is dismissed because the world can empathize with their situation, but that doesn't make them any less wrong.

How can you declare another group of peoples morals as wrong?

Especially when the jews claim that patch of land was given to them by god.

Most of the current generation of israelis was born and raised there, save for a million russian immigrants in the 90s. they have a right to defend the land they were born in. Some of them may think that the land is "god-given" and that it's the reason they must defend it, so they're right for the wrong reasons.

Actually you merely upheld my point.

Don't worry? I mean if someone in your circle who could repeat any criticism of Israel that you might post is reading here. Where, if repeated, it could hurt your marks/access to college/work prospects. It's completely normal to be afraid of people who might do you wrong for speaking things that they don't want spoken.

We understand.

Most of the current generation of israelis was born and raised there, save for a million russian immigrants in the 90s. they have a right to defend the land they were born in. Some of them may think that the land is "god-given" and that it's the reason they must defend it, so they're right for the wrong reasons.

And yet the Palestinians have no right to defend the land they were born in?

And yet the Palestinians have no right to defend the land they were born in?

They're not satisfied with any concessions. It's all or nothing because their plight is less rational than Israel's.

They're not satisfied with any concessions. It's all or nothing because their plight is less rational than Israel's.

Of course they're not satisfied, people tend to get pissed off when their land is stolen from them, but moving on, could you please explain to me how their plight is less rational?
And since you failed to explain how you can claim another persons morals as wrong, don't bother using that excuse again unless you care to explain.

If any other country did what Israel has done these past few days, they would be condemned world wide. But no, world leaders now frown upon Palestine for the actions of a select group rather than the actions of a well-armed (supposedly) civilized country.

How did they expect to not only put the Jews into a predominantly Islamic area, but then to boot some other people out to make way. Did they not see that these people would continue to fight to the death?

Makes you wonder what Israel is holding over the Western World to keep them by the balls like this.

I would make Israel return to pre 1967 borders and work from there. Their only right to that territory is in some millennia-old story. They're an occupying power, plain and simple. Having an independent state for Israelis is one thing, but they're treating innocent people in their war-conquest territories like sub-human criminals. You'd think a Jewish state would understand that kind of oppression especially well.

Nobody wants to live in a refugee camp all their lives. These people can never leave without special permission from occupying Israelis. I'm not saying Palestinian aggression and Arab denial of Israel is justified, but Israel can't play the victim while it's actively denying self-determination from an entire people. They need to give up the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, and east Jerusalem territories if they want peace.

In all truthfulness, though, I don't know how to solve the problem. Things just get fucked beyond belief when foreigners start drawing up borders where there used to not be any.

How did they expect to not only put the Jews into a predominantly Islamic area, but then to boot some other people out to make way. Did they not see that these people would continue to fight to the death?


Truth is that's exactly why they did it, the British wanted to fuck over the Ottoman empire.

Truth is that's exactly why they did it, the British wanted to fuck over the Ottoman empire.

Pretty much.

If you read the white paper and the Balfour declaration and look at the language in both it's actually kind of funny.

Very duplicitous. They promised to protect Arab sovereignty for countries that stood against the Ottomans, but also told the Zionists that the queen would "not be opposed" and "view favourably" a Jewish state in the region. After WWI, when both parties wanted the British Empire to deliver on its promises, they said "Oh, not our problem. The Queen says goodbye!"

Of course they're not satisfied, people tend to get pissed off when their land is stolen from them, .

Ok I just have a question.

Does the land originally belong to the Jews or the palestinians?

I would make Israel return to pre 1967 borders and work from there. Their only right to that territory is in some millennia-old story. They're an occupying power, plain and simple. Having an independent state for Israelis is one thing, but they're treating innocent people in their war-conquest territories like sub-human criminals. You'd think a Jewish state would understand that kind of oppression especially well.

Nobody wants to live in a refugee camp all their lives. These people can never leave without special permission from occupying Israelis. I'm not saying Palestinian aggression and Arab denial of Israel is justified, but Israel can't play the victim while it's actively denying self-determination from an entire people. They need to give up the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, and east Jerusalem territories if they want peace.



Go back to to the ISM you tool. The history of the middle east did not start in 1967, and the Israeli's weren't the aggressors in '48, '67, or '73.

How did they expect to not only put the Jews into a predominantly Islamic area, but then to boot some other people out to make way. Did they not see that these people would continue to fight to the death?


Uh.
This is ridiculous.
The 'Palestinian Territories', Gaza and the west bank, were occupied by Israel in 1967.
Israel was recognized as a nation by the UN in 1948, what the fuck are you on about?

What the fuck is with this "palestinian" shit anyway?
Before 1967 Gaza was Egyptian territory, and the West Bank was Jordanian.

It's shame the Israeli's can't just hand those territories back to their respective countries, but after years and years of the palestinians being used as human weapons against Israel no country would be insane enough to volunteer to rule them.

Ok I just have a question.

Does the land originally belong to the Jews or the palestinians?

Which land? Pre '67 Israel as it was in the aftermath of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, or the "Palestinian Territories' they occupied in 1967?

Ok I just have a question.

Does the land originally belong to the Jews or the palestinians?

That argument is overdone and retarded, that's like saying since Americans originally came from Britain, Britain should belong to America.

Which land? Pre '67 Israel as it was in the aftermath of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, or the "Palestinian Territories' they occupied in 1967?

Huh?

Well, the patch of land that the Israels and the palestinians are currently fighting over.

That argument is overdone and retarded, that's like saying since Americans originally came from Britain, Britain should belong to America.

There was no argument to speak of. I asked a question.

Secondly, examples without an actual argument are useless.

The point's been already outlined by Zay. The land is the Israelis, and, in trying to avoid conflict, the Israelis cede land to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, however, aren't satisfied by Israeli AND UN compromises, and resort to RPG's and mortars instead.

THAT is why Israel is bombing the living shit out them as we speak.

There was no argument to speak of. I asked a question.

Secondly, examples without an actual argument are useless.

Sorry then, I thought you were trying to make a point by being clever about it.

The point's been already outlined by Zay. The land is the Israelis, and, in trying to avoid conflict, the Israelis cede land to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, however, aren't satisfied by Israeli AND UN compromises, and resort to RPG's and mortars instead.

THAT is why Israel is bombing the living shit out them as we speak.

Israel broke the ceasfire, not palestine


The moar you know.

Of course they're not satisfied, people tend to get pissed off when their land is stolen from them, but moving on, could you please explain to me how their plight is less rational?
And since you failed to explain how you can claim another persons morals as wrong, don't bother using that excuse again unless you care to explain.

Some human behavior is preferable over others. I believe in what you could call moral objectivity, not this liberal relativism(and nihilist) bullshit where all religious irrationality is equal.

The point's been already outlined by Zay. The land is the Israelis, and, in trying to avoid conflict, the Israelis cede land to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, however, aren't satisfied by Israeli AND UN compromises, and resort to RPG's and mortars instead.

THAT is why Israel is bombing the living shit out them as we speak.

If I steal $10,000 from you and then magnanimously give back a $1000: you'd be satisfied I'm sure.

People would be all, "He gave you a $1000! Why are you so uptight? If someone gave me a $1000? I'd be grateful!"

Why is discussion of these issues easier to do in Israel than in the US/Canada? What keeps people more silent or pro-Israel in their discussions over here than Israelis are?

What could possibly do that? Why are there resident Israelis who feel freer to criticize the treatment of Palestinians than people over here?

The point's been already outlined by Zay. The land is the Israelis, and, in trying to avoid conflict, the Israelis cede land to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, however, aren't satisfied by Israeli AND UN compromises, and resort to RPG's and mortars instead.

THAT is why Israel is bombing the living shit out them as we speak.

If the land is indeed the Israelis', why do the palestinians try and take it?

I am not doubting you, I am just genuinely perplexed.

Sorry then, I thought you were trying to make a point by being clever about it.

I would advise you, along with a lot of people, that taking people literally is a good habit to get into. Also, you might want to stop reading too much into what people say.

Just to make it really plain: I asked that question, because I sincerely wished to know the answer.

Why is discussion of these issues easier to do in Israel than in the US/Canada? What keeps people more silent or pro-Israel in their discussions over here than Israelis are?

What could possibly do that? Why are there resident Israelis who feel freer to criticize the treatment of Palestinians than people over here?
We have interesting media tricks that keep us looking at things in a certain light. It's harder to have discussion on something when it's not happening in front of you.

"A Palestinian militant opened fire in an Israeli settlement in the occupied territory of Golan Heights yesterday"
Becomes
"A Palestinian gunman opened fire in an Israeli neighborhood in the Golan Heights district yesterday"
and the meaning changes entirely.

Some human behavior is preferable over others. I believe in what you could call moral objectivity, not this liberal relativism(and nihilist) bullshit where all religious irrationality is equal.

Could you be more specific? what is it about the Palestinians behavior makes them deserve to have their land taken from them?

Apparently some think the Gaza incursion is a bit of a "song & dance" for the incoming President:

"Speaking of Obama, the real focal point of the Israeli assault isn't Gaza – it's Washington, D.C. The whole point of this exercise in futility – which will not create a single iota of security for Israel, will not topple Hamas, and will not prove any more successful than the second Lebanese war – is to set the terms by which the Israelis will deal with the incoming U.S. president. Before he even gets a chance to appoint his Middle East team, his special envoys and advisers, the Israelis will have sabotaged the peace effort they can clearly see coming – and put the Americans on notice that whatever "change" is in the air will have to be to Israel's advantage. In short, the Gaza massacre is a preemptive strike against the prospect of American intervention on the Palestinians' behalf, or, at least, a more evenhanded policy framework."

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13965

With the guaranteed return fire that Israel will receive, the Pals are liable to get little sympathy. Poo' Wittle Iswael is going to be all hard done by for the next while. *Iswaelis Put on Sad Clown Faces* "Poo' wittle us! So smart! Soooo nice! Why we so hard done by? :eek: :("

It's a matter of fact that there are some unfair double standards in the way Israeli criminal behaviour is tolerated if not openly supported by Western governments.

Israel as a country is based on genocide and ethnic cleansing, what they did to the legitimate inhabitants of that land is way worse than what the Serbs did to the Muslim Bosniacs back in the ninenties.

Israel's actions are criminal and cannot be justified, it's an abuse of self defence, however the decisions made by the Israeli government will also be the catalysts for that cancer's demise, Israel cannot survive this century, they have been seeding death and misery for way too long, at some point all this hatred they fuel will come back at them.

The very reasons for the existance of the Israeli state are fraudulent and irrelevant, and cannot in any way be considered rational, whether they originate from old superstitious religious texts or whether they are based on an emotional reaction to persecution in Europe.

I think deep down, everyone knows that pulling out would mean israel owns the shit out of anyone that fucks with them. Really, we're just in it to defend the arabs, because they're like kids poking a landmine with a stick.

If they own the shit out of the middle east... problem solved. Either way, we should stop trying to be mediators in a conflict that we ourselves can never really control unless we send in our own police state over the whole area. No matter how much talking and diplomacy we try to encourage between governments, we still do not get to the heart of the problem... the people. Its not like their governments have complete control over their people.

If they own the shit out of the middle east... problem solved. Either way, we should stop trying to be mediators in a conflict that we ourselves can never really control unless we send in our own police state over the whole area. No matter how much talking and diplomacy we try to encourage between governments, we still do not get to the heart of the problem... the people. Its not like their governments have complete control over their people.

If there ever is an all out war between the Middle East and Israel, Israel would still win hands down. They've got Nukes and Mossad, ya' know?

I'd realize that the problem has nothing do with America and that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are enemies of our great nation. For this reason, I'd deport all arabs and Jews and cut off all aid to both countries.

/signed

The point's been already outlined by Zay. The land is the Israelis, and, in trying to avoid conflict, the Israelis cede land to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, however, aren't satisfied by Israeli AND UN compromises, and resort to RPG's and mortars instead.

THAT is why Israel is bombing the living shit out them as we speak.

Ha, that's a laugh. When did the Israelis last "cede" land to the Palestinians? If this is true, then why are are more Israeli settlers moving into the Palestinian West bank everyday, and why do the IDF continue regular raids into the West Bank without notifiying the security forces there first? The fact is that the people of the West Bank collectively chose the diplomatic route and renounced extremism - and how were they rewarded? More Israeli settlers, more persectution of farmers, more checkpoints, more ground water siphoned off, more raids and more human rights abuses. Israel massacres citisens in the Gaza Strip as punishment for chosing violence and extremism, whilst continuing to punish those in the West Bank who chose the peaceful diplomatic route.

The question we need to ask is "Why?"

Why does Israel seek to perpetuate the war? It's clear in both military and political tactics they are not seeking to end the conflict. When fighting a war against terrorists, the worst way to conduct it is create many civilian casualties. More indescriminate casualties leads to hatred directed at you and more support for those fighting against you. The Israeli tactic of using long range high explosives in the crowded residencial areas of Gaza guarantees a high civilian casualty rate. Why does a country with one of the best trained, best equipped special forces refuse to use them? If you're seeking to assasinate key figures without civilian casualties surely an elite unit guided by Mossad intelligence is an ideal weapon? Why are the Israelis positively trying to cause as many indescriminate casualties in a short ammount of time, just like they did in the most recent forray into Lebanon? Why are the people of the West Bank and Golan Hights still being punished depsite the fact that they have for the most part renounced extremism? The fact is that when the Israelis stop this blitz on Gaza (which they inevitably will, even if it takes as long as the stepping down of George Bush for this to happen), the threat of violence they face from Palestinian terrorists will be greater than when they started this most recent campaign.

If there ever is an all out war between the Middle East and Israel, Israel would still win hands down. They've got Nukes and Mossad, ya' know?

...? Wasn't that already discussed? I was responding to Zay saying almost exactly that. It didn't seem like what he said needed to be reiterated. Unless you felt like doing so because you gain some kind of personal pride out of it. Or you have some kind of sick fetish about Middle Easterners getting their asses handed to them.

Sometimes it seems like people that are Pro-Israel are robots. That is why the general population of the world isn't Pro-Israel. Israel's PR sucks when they have all of their supporters repeating the same crap over and over again. I mean, many US Presidents really sucked. It just seems like the current one is the worse because of shitty shitty PR. Sure there is justification for Israel's actions. But when actions involve something serious as in people dying, you really need to sale the justification.

Only a few people in Israel have died as a result of the recent events. This is because we are not giving Hamas weapons. Withdraw support from Israel.

This thread shows how frightening the brainwashing of the American people really is. They're actually siding with the people who are discriminating against them. They run your media and your banks, and actively hire only other jews, in order to keep you out. And you support them.

I don't give a fuck about the arabs, though. Both sides are scum. I just wish the palestinians were slightly stronger so they would be more evenly matched.

I'd decide it based on merits.

The way I see it, the Israelis are more beneficial to have around.

If Israel was really "killing indiscriminately" there would be a shitload more casualties.

Huh?

Well, the patch of land that the Israels and the palestinians are currently fighting over.


Not so easy a question to answer.
Israel pulled out of the gaza strip years ago, but the Hamas fucktards keep firing rockets at Israeli towns from there.
Israel is presently bombing the fuck out of them and may well end up going to in clean them out properly.

In that sense the "fight" at the moment is over the very much legitimately Israeli land that makes up the state of Israel and has nothing to do with Israeli 'occupation', which is now only of the West Bank (and the Golan Heights if you want to be picky, though those residents consider themselves Syrian or (maybe) Lebanese, not Palestinian)

I'd decide it based on merits.

The way I see it, the Israelis are more beneficial to have around.
On the other hand, the Palestinians can't make much progress only because the Israelis are keeping them down...

Sort of a flawed argument to consider when one people suppresses by force the merit of another.

It's funny how those partial to the Israelis never care to comment about how they treat the Palis. Holding back food & medicine? Not allowing fuel? Bombing their power plant?

Completely normal & OK to the max!

Israelis being so smart & just soooo nice? Anything they do is just peachy keen & cool.

The Nazis didn't lose...they just moved to Israel. :D

On the other hand, the Palestinians can't make much progress only because the Israelis are keeping them down...

Sort of a flawed argument to consider when one people suppresses by force the merit of another.

Israel didn't always have the extreme level of foreign support that it does now. They fought very hard in a bunch of conflicts to end up with the land they have now and have generally tried to do the right thing over the years.

I think that if the palestinians actually made a bit of effort they could SLOWLY get something done if they'd do something productive rather than immediately launch more rockets from any land that's ceded to them.

I think their stupidest move lately was electing Hamas to power, because while being able to vote is good having your government's official position as "this neighbouring country and all its people must be destroyed" is not going to get you anywhere.

I think that if the palestinians actually made a bit of effort they could SLOWLY get something done if they'd do something productive rather than immediately launch more rockets from any land that's ceded to them.

Any comment on how the Palis are treated? On how they should deal with their lack of electricity/heat/food/medicine?

Or is *....SILENCE...* your answer?

"More seriously, though, the Huffington Post's disgraceful performance on the Gaza issue is really just a reflection of the laughable uniformity of Western coverage of Middle Eastern issues, and this is especially true when it comes to the US and its interests in the region. It's a widely-noted irony that the nature and extent of the "special relationship" is never discussed as openly in the US as it is in the Israeli media."
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13990

Israel didn't always have the extreme level of foreign support that it does now. They fought very hard in a bunch of conflicts to end up with the land they have now and have generally tried to do the right thing over the years.

What the fuck?

They were given a certain amount of land which they did not deserve in the first place, only to begin expanding and capturing new land at any opportunity.

I would say the Palestinians have been fairly mild in their response, I would fight to the death if I was in their situation.

What the fuck?

They were given a certain amount of land which they did not deserve in the first place, only to begin expanding and capturing new land at any opportunity.

I would say the Palestinians have been fairly mild in their response, I would fight to the death if I was in their situation.

How the palis are treated is irrelevant because of how they act. There were a lot of opportunities for them to regain a lot of land PEACEFULLY over the years, but whenever there was an offer it was either not good enough or it was abused.

The Israelis got put there by the brits and the yanks, so how they got there isn't something most of them can do much about. Then everyone from nearby attacked with the intent of wiping them all out. I think the Israelis were right to take more land after being attacked by every neighbouring country.

I also think they've taken things pretty well, If I had neighbours like that I'd be more inclined to finish things once and for all.

Oh. Very fair. And the Israelis who think that the Palis are abused & maltreated?

What should Israel do with them? Fines? Jail? Expulsion?

Spihie? Today: All your assets & those of your family are taken. You receive nothing & you go forth with what you can carry. How long before you man up, carry on, rebuild & learn to be grateful you're alive & STFU about your previous life?

I think that if the palestinians actually made a bit of effort they could SLOWLY get something done if they'd do something productive rather than immediately launch more rockets from any land that's ceded to them.


You appear to have missed what I said about the West Bank. It's OK, never fear, I'll post it again so we can be clear on this one:

The fact is that the people of the West Bank collectively chose the diplomatic route and renounced extremism - and how were they rewarded? More Israeli settlers, more persectution of farmers, more checkpoints, more ground water siphoned off, more raids and more human rights abuses. Israel massacres citisens in the Gaza Strip as punishment for chosing violence and extremism, whilst continuing to punish those in the West Bank who chose the peaceful diplomatic route.

What motive is there for the people of Gaza to choose the diplomatic option when, going by the happenings in the West Bank, they would still be punished for doing so?

Just cut off all aid to all foreign countries. After about one month without foreign handouts, Isreal will die. Problem solved.


We'll also stop wasting tax payers' money.

Just cut off all aid to all foreign countries. After about one month without foreign handouts, Isreal will die. Problem solved.


We'll also stop wasting tax payers' money.

'Isreal' may well die without US aid, Israel on the other hand is entirely able to carry on without US 'play nice' money.

What motive is there for the people of Gaza to choose the diplomatic option when, going by the happenings in the West Bank, they would still be punished for doing so?

Part of the problem here is Israeli politics.
The pullout from Gaza left a missile base for Hamas and little else - the Israeli public supported Sharon and later Olmert - however the 2006 war against Hezbollah took the shine off Kadima and nothing has been done about Gaza. I guess we don't know what Sharon had planned with the Gaza pullout, it may have been intentionally set up to fail in order to discredit such things in the future - we'll never know.
The case is though that the Israeli experience has left them feeling very much lukewarm about making concessions.
That didn't really start with Gaza of course.

But this all of this I can't believe some people are seriously suggesting this is a show for Obama.
Israel is a democracy too for goodness sake.
There's an Israeli election coming up and Kadima needs to shore up it's support from the right if it wants a serious chance at retaining government.
Given the religious parties dropped out of the coalition, forcing the upcoming election, that Yisrael Beiteinu is on track to maintain its current level of support, and that Labour's support is so shit by historical standards that it's clearly at best a left wing 'partner' in government, there's an extremely real possibility that good old Netanyahu will be PM again.

The very fact that the likely largest parties in the Knesset are Kadima and Likud should tell people something about where the political center of gravity in Israel is planted post Sharon.
This whole thing in Gaza right now is quite likely pre-election muscle flexing. It's clearly been in the works for a while and from the point of view of Israeli's should have been done a while ago - of course the present timing is particularly convenient for the government which, I might add is as far left a government as Israel is likely to have in the near future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_2009

Funny how it is impolitic in the US to mention anything at all that Israel might do to the Palis that might be considered trashy/provoking/criminal? Prez Bushy is certainly in AIPAC's pocket as Prez-elect Obama may very well be too. Bushy is very careful to walk on eggs around his bosses in Israel. He knows which side his bread is buttered on. If he's not careful: he might find jobs harder to get, might find that...hmmm. I don't want to make up "conspiracies".

All I can be pretty much sure of is that he wants to help the his Party. US politicians know better than to mess with Israel/AIPAC. Besides: lot of Congressmen have investments in Defense industries, which companies they are likely to be working in after their terms.

"As a matter of fact, the cease-fire did not collapse, because there was no real cease-fire to start with. The main requirement for any cease-fire in the Gaza Strip must be the opening of the border crossings. There can be no life in Gaza without a steady flow of supplies. But the crossings were not opened, except for a few hours now and again. The blockade on land, on sea and in the air against a million and a half human beings is an act of war, as much as any dropping of bombs or launching of rockets. It paralyzes life in the Gaza Strip: eliminating most sources of employment, pushing hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation, stopping most hospitals from functioning, disrupting the supply of electricity and water."

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01022009.html

With their free discussion, (something frowned upon in the US when it comes to the Middle East) Israelis know that their government spouts BS. BS that is repeated by the US Government.

"It fools Americans, but it doesn’t fool Israelis. The Israelis have always known that “self-defense” is a cloak for a Zionist policy of territorial expansion. The policy is controversial within Israel. Many Israelis object, just as many Americans object to President Bush’s illegal wars and violations of US civil liberties. Many Israelis give voice to their moral conscience, but they are overwhelmed by vested interests."

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts01022009.html

If they were honest? The Israelis would stand right up & say, "We're doing what governments have always done: stealing another People's land. So Fuck Off! We do what we like!"

They could even say it like the Americans did when they were populating their new country with immigrants, call it Manifest Destiny. A "God Given Right" to do just what they like & screw anyone who disagreed but didn't have the power to stop the settlers advance.

It's the old "might makes right", the reason governments raise armies. To stop other people doing it to them & to do it to others...if they can.

"As a matter of fact, the cease-fire did not collapse, because there was no real cease-fire to start with. The main requirement for any cease-fire in the Gaza Strip must be the opening of the border crossings. There can be no life in Gaza without a steady flow of supplies. But the crossings were not opened, except for a few hours now and again. The blockade on land, on sea and in the air against a million and a half human beings is an act of war, as much as any dropping of bombs or launching of rockets. It paralyzes life in the Gaza Strip: eliminating most sources of employment, pushing hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation, stopping most hospitals from functioning, disrupting the supply of electricity and water."


When you talk about the issue of border crossings, why don't you take it up with Egypt as well?

Why the fuck should the Israeli's open their borders to people who hate them and who have a history of blowing themselves up in Israeli cafes/nightclubs/buses, when fellow Arab nation Egypt has its own border with gaza that remains closed?

Isn't it a bit silly to be firing rockets at people upon whom you're dependent on for electricity and water anyway?
Anyway I was under the impression that a ceasefire existed when both parties agreed to it, and that the general gist of a cease fire is to well... cease fire.

When you talk about the issue of border crossings, why don't you take it up with Egypt as well?

Why the fuck should the Israeli's open their borders to people who hate them and who have a history of blowing themselves up in Israeli cafes/nightclubs/buses, when fellow Arab nation Egypt has its own border?

Hell! Gaza was part of Egypt to start with wasn't it?

Anyway I was under the impression that a ceasefire existed when both parties agreed to it, and that the general gist of a cease fire is to well... cease fire.

Also - how can an act of war be committed against anything but a country? closing a border is most certainly not an act or war either.

So? You don't feel that closing the only way to get supplies is bad? That the US/Israel pressuring Egypt to keep their border crossing closed too is OK?

To you none of this is "bad", only what the poor, hard-done-by Israelis need to do? Though it saddens them greatly? Interesting. Partisan much? These are old fashioned techniques...

Locking people in camps. Stopping their movements. Denying food & medicine. Killing them.

...Remind you of anyone? ;)

So? You don't feel that closing the only way to get supplies is bad? That the US/Israel pressuring Egypt to keep their border crossing closed too is OK?

To you none of this is "bad", only what the poor, hard-done-by Israelis need to do? Though it saddens them greatly? Interesting. Partisan much? These are old fashioned techniques...

Locking people in camps. Stopping their movements. Denying food & medicine. Killing them.

...Remind you of anyone? ;)

Why do you take Egypt's closed borders as a given, but Israel's as some aberration.
The situation is as follows:

-Gaza strip, inhabited by people with a long history of conflict with Israel, has borders with Israel, and Egypt.

-Gaza strip, which was in fact formerly part of Egypt, Egypt is a Muslim, Arab country. There is no history of violence between Egypt and Gaza.

Do you seriously see the risks and burden on Egypt from opening their own border with Gaza as being equivalent to than on Israel?
You're expecting them to be nice to people who want them dead. That's idiocy.

i would nuke both sides into total submission. then i would turn it into a bible themed Disney land. complete with rides an funnel cakes:D

admission would be free to arabs an jews but christians would have to pay a fee of 20 silver pieces .

Why do you take Egypt's closed borders as a given, but Israel's as some aberration.
The situation is as follows:

-Gaza strip, inhabited by people with a long history of conflict with Israel, has borders with Israel, and Egypt.

-Gaza strip, which was in fact formerly part of Egypt, Egypt is a Muslim, Arab country. There is no history of violence between Egypt and Gaza.

Do you seriously see the risks and burden on Egypt from opening their own border with Gaza as being equivalent to than on Israel?
You're expecting them to be nice to people who want them dead. That's idiocy.

Exactly why do they "want them dead"? What is their motivation? Take your time: don't make yourself look too glib or a shallow jingoist, repeating catch phrases.
...Unless you're happy with that level of discourse.

How would you feel about those who disagree with Israel's actions taking action? If NATO & the US decide to blockade Israel. No one in & no one out. No goods in & no goods out. No oil & no gas. All "Sit down. STFU. Learn to play nice. Hey! You want a punch in the face? :mad: "

You cool with that too? :eek:

Exactly why do they "want them dead"? What is their motivation? Take your time: don't make yourself look too glib or a shallow jingoist, repeating catch phrases.
...Unless you're happy with that level of discourse.

How would you feel about those who disagree with Israel's actions taking action? If NATO & the US decide to blockade Israel. No one in & no one out. No goods in & no goods out. No oil & no gas. All "Sit down. STFU. Learn to play nice. Hey! You want a punch in the face? :mad: "

You cool with that too? :eek:

It's fucking irrelevant what Palestinian motivations are, the Israeli's are not going to act irrationally. They're not going to wake up tomorrow and realize they're baby killers or whatever the fuck the you or the palestinians want to decide they are.

NATO and the US won't pull a stunt like that on Israel any more then they'd pull it on India or Pakistan. It's so stupid it doesn't bear thinking about.
You seem to expect the world to conform to your moral views - hint: it doesn't.

Can you not see that it would be entirely irrational for Israel to do as you expect them to do?

It's fucking irrelevant what Palestinian motivations are, the Israeli's are not going to act irrationally. They're not going to wake up tomorrow and realize they're baby killers or whatever the fuck the you or the palestinians want to decide they are.

NATO and the US won't pull a stunt like that on Israel any more then they'd pull it on India or Pakistan. It's so stupid it doesn't bear thinking about.
You seem to expect the world to conform to your moral views - hint: it doesn't.

Can you not see that it would be entirely irrational for Israel to do as you expect them to do?

You're either quite unschooled. Purposely obtuse or just a plain lover of fighting & death. Who'll use any excuse to see his favorite bloodsport enacted. How sad.

Do you love it madly or are you just plain mad? Do you care that acting like sweet, sad-faced clown assholes will never buy Israel permanent security? That the whole Muslim world will be inflamed at these assholes?

So? I don't care for your argument: is it OK if I blockade you? If I have enough "pull" in your area to close you in? Cut off your food/heat/clean water? How long before you "play nice"? You "man enough" to back off? Sit down & STFU? Or are you "special"?

You're either quite unschooled. Purposely obtuse or just a plain lover of fighting & death. Who'll use any excuse to see his favorite bloodsport enacted. How sad.

Do you love it madly or are you just plain mad? Do you care that acting like sweet, sad-faced clown assholes will never buy Israel permanent security? That the whole Muslim world will be inflamed at these assholes?

So? I don't care for your argument: is it OK if I blockade you? If I have enough "pull" in your area to close you in? Cut off your food/heat/clean water? How long before you "play nice"? You "man enough" to back off? Sit down & STFU? Or are you "special"?

Tell me - what do you think Israel's purpose is in blockading Gaza, and what could Israel do that would put them in your good books?
ie: what is the course of action that Israel SHOULD take according to you?

Tell me - what do you think Israel's purpose is in blockading Gaza, and what could Israel do that would put them in your good books?
ie: what is the course of action that Israel SHOULD take according to you?

Play fair. For you jingoists to bring up "what terrible things they would do!" if the border was opened? Why play so naive? What: even just allowing aid workers into Gaza would lead to Israeli deaths?

Do you really believe that? Allowing in food would lead to what: turning the fat in the food into explosives? Medicine: used to make poison arrows, to be heartlessly shot at Noble Israeli Soldiers? How cruel!

Not so easy a question to answer.
Israel pulled out of the gaza strip years ago, but the Hamas fucktards keep firing rockets at Israeli towns from there.
Israel is presently bombing the fuck out of them and may well end up going to in clean them out properly.

In that sense the "fight" at the moment is over the very much legitimately Israeli land that makes up the state of Israel and has nothing to do with Israeli 'occupation', which is now only of the West Bank (and the Golan Heights if you want to be picky, though those residents consider themselves Syrian or (maybe) Lebanese, not Palestinian)

Thank you for answering my question, although I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing.

I was under the impression that the patch of land that the state of Israel currently holds dominion over was taken from someone else and given to them by the Allies (keep in mind that I know very very VERY little about history so if I should sound like I am talking straight out of my ass, feel free to correct me)? Assuming this to be true, who were the occupants of this land? The Palestinians? Whoever they were, their descendants have the right to be pissed and furthermore, to want to take their land back, in my humble opinion.

It basically went like this
Biblical times, Hebrews moved into the "land of milk and honey" (who knows who lived their first), located in modern day Israel according to prominent theologists.

Then it was under the control of the Roman and Byzantine empires for centuries (although the Jews enjoyed a limited amount of autonomy in exchange for paying tribute).

After the fall of the Byzantine empire, Arabs took control of the area and from medieval times to 1919 it was part of the Ottoman Empire. At this point all the currently contested land was considered "Palestine".

After World War I, the British and French divided up the now fallen ottoman empire, much like colonial powers divided up Africa (i.e. drawing artificial borders without regards to ethnic and cultural divisions). Out of Palestine they created the separate states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, as well as drawing up other bullshit countries from the rest of the empire like Iraq. Around this time, the British were giving Jewish Zionists, who had been planning a mass settlement of a region (they even considered a state in the western US territories) support for their own state in the region. They also made the same promise to Arab nationalists who wanted to see the Ottoman empire go down. They really couldn't keep both promises so they walked out on a diplomatic level after a bunch of Jews and Arabs moved into British Palestine.

At that point, violence was breaking out, Zionists even committed terrorist attacks against British colonial targets, and the Arabs and the Jews were clearly not getting along. The U.N. stepped in in 1948 (probably motivated also by the global shock at the holocaust) and carved up parts of Palestine into a "two-state solution", wherein the Arabs would get some land in the area, and the Jews would have their own state. The original 1948 UN mandated Israel was born. Map (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/mjacobs/Maps/Israel-1948-49.gif). It's in french, but basically this state is represented by the purple area in the map on the right. That's what the international community agreed that the Zionists would get.

Now, the Arab states said "hell no" for a variety of reasons, and launched a joint attack on Israel in that same year. After armistice was declared in 1949, Israel had taken over most of the UN partitioned Arab states (the map on the right).

Then after a series of wars in 1954, 1967, and 1978, (some of which Israel started, some of which Arabs started, all of these Israel won), Israeli forces occupied the west bank, the gaza strip, east Jerusalem, and the golan heights. Map (http://www.knowledgenews.net/history/1967_small.gif) (note that they gave back the Sinai peninsula after the US made them, for fear of escalating the cold war). These are the territories contested today. They're not part of internationally recognized Israel, they're conquests of the Arab-Israeli wars. Biblically speaking they may have belonged to the Jews a couple thousand years ago, but from a modern standpoint, they've belonged to Palestinians for the majority of modern history.

Hope that answers your question.

I would take a time machine back to 3000 bc and destroy the bible, and it's authors.

---------

Seriously...

Evacuate Jerusalem, and level the holy city down to a parking lot.

Tell both of these groups of children with childish notions of magical land, that nobody gets it.

They won't be killing each other for the next 2000 years over a parking lot.

---------

Tell the muslims to behave or Mecca, along with their magical space rock, is next. Tell the Jews to be happy with what they have left, or we will destory more "holy" sites.

It basically went like this
Biblical times, Hebrews moved into the "land of milk and honey" (who knows who lived their first), located in modern day Israel according to prominent theologists.

Then it was under the control of the Roman and Byzantine empires for centuries (although the Jews enjoyed a limited amount of autonomy in exchange for paying tribute).

After the fall of the Byzantine empire, Arabs took control of the area and from medieval times to 1919 it was part of the Ottoman Empire. At this point all the currently contested land was considered "Palestine".

After World War I, the British and French divided up the now fallen ottoman empire, much like colonial powers divided up Africa (i.e. drawing artificial borders without regards to ethnic and cultural divisions). Out of Palestine they created the separate states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, as well as drawing up other bullshit countries from the rest of the empire like Iraq. Around this time, the British were giving Jewish Zionists, who had been planning a mass settlement of a region (they even considered a state in the western US territories) support for their own state in the region. They also made the same promise to Arab nationalists who wanted to see the Ottoman empire go down. They really couldn't keep both promises so they walked out on a diplomatic level after a bunch of Jews and Arabs moved into British Palestine.

At that point, violence was breaking out, Zionists even committed terrorist attacks against British colonial targets, and the Arabs and the Jews were clearly not getting along. The U.N. stepped in in 1948 (probably motivated also by the global shock at the holocaust) and carved up parts of Palestine into a "two-state solution", wherein the Arabs would get some land in the area, and the Jews would have their own state. The original 1948 UN mandated Israel was born. Map (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/mjacobs/Maps/Israel-1948-49.gif). It's in french, but basically this state is represented by the purple area in the map on the right. That's what the international community agreed that the Zionists would get.

Now, the Arab states said "hell no" for a variety of reasons, and launched a joint attack on Israel in that same year. After armistice was declared in 1949, Israel had taken over most of the UN partitioned Arab states (the map on the right).

Then after a series of wars in 1954, 1967, and 1978, (some of which Israel started, some of which Arabs started, all of these Israel won), Israeli forces occupied the west bank, the gaza strip, east Jerusalem, and the golan heights. Map (http://www.knowledgenews.net/history/1967_small.gif) (note that they gave back the Sinai peninsula after the US made them, for fear of escalating the cold war). These are the territories contested today. They're not part of internationally recognized Israel, they're conquests of the Arab-Israeli wars. Biblically speaking they may have belonged to the Jews a couple thousand years ago, but from a modern standpoint, they've belonged to Palestinians for the majority of modern history.

Hope that answers your question.

I would agree almost entirely except your references to "belonged to the palestinians for the majority of modern history".
Gaza was part of Egypt, the west bank was part of Jordan.
How is it that one day someone is an Egyptian and the next they're Palestinian? (obviously before world war one they were part of the Ottoman empire).
While you're correct that Israel doesn't have any sort of 'right' to those lands, it took them off other countries (Egypt and Jordan), not from some imaginary "palestinian" state.

I would agree almost entirely except your references to "belonged to the palestinians for the majority of modern history".
Gaza was part of Egypt, the west bank was part of Jordan.
How is it that one day someone is an Egyptian and the next they're Palestinian? (obviously before world war one they were part of the Ottoman empire).
While you're correct that Israel doesn't have any sort of 'right' to those lands, it took them off other countries (Egypt and Jordan), not from some imaginary "palestinian" state.

Ah, yeah I guess I did oversimplify. That's absolutely correct.

On the other hand, a lot of times if you ask someone from Syria or Jordan where they're from, they'll use the adjective "Palestinian". I was under the impression that there was a lot of pan-Arabism in that sense from former Sykes-Picot accord countries.

But yeah, in terms of sovereign countries with modern borders, the occupied territories of Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank are part of Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan respectively. Thanks for pointing that out.

Ah, yeah I guess I did oversimplify. That's absolutely correct.

On the other hand, a lot of times if you ask someone from Syria or Jordan where they're from, they'll use the adjective "Palestinian". I was under the impression that there was a lot of pan-Arabism in that sense from former Sykes-Picot accord countries.

But yeah, in terms of sovereign countries with modern borders, the occupied territories of Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank are part of Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan respectively. Thanks for pointing that out.

It's cool - I mean you clearly know your history (in more detail than I do).

It's just that I find that on the pro arab/'palestinian' side of the debate there's a tendency to not clearly differentiate between Israel's creation and the occupation of the 'palestinian territories'.

(Not at all making a reference to the quoted post now - making my own point.)

The idea that "the Jews took the palestinians land on the basis that the bible says it's theirs" and other (slightly more credible) variations on the same theme weave a vicious little dance around the truth.

While we can squabble all dayt over who started the six day war(closing the straights of Tiran is pretty close to an act of war after all, certainly by the standards of the 'omg gaza blockade' crowd), it was clearly a war waiting to happen(lol Nasser) and the occupation of the Golan Heights and West Bank in particular were ridiculously strategically beneficial to Israel.
But the important facet here is that this is when what we call the 'palestinian territories' came abound - once the west bank and gaza strip were occupied by Israel.
The creation of the state of Israel in and of itself, whatever justification, is entirely irrelevant to the issue of the palestinian territories.
It is so horribly misleading when people deliberately, or through ignorance, confuse the two.
What's happening in Gaza right now is happening as a result of the occupation of gaza and everything that's happened since then - it has nothing to do with Israel as it was created.

Which land? Pre '67 Israel as it was in the aftermath of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, or the "Palestinian Territories' they occupied in 1967?

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!

The bulk of what are called "Palestinian Arabs" are members of families who migrated into the Land of Israel beginning in the late 19th century. Palestinian nationalism is a mislabeling of Arab nationalism. Arab nationalism exists, although it is closely bound up with Islamic nationalism and even Islamism. Palestinian nationalism, however, is a phantom. It is nothing more than genocidal hatred of Jews!




The Arab assaults and aggressions against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968, and 1973 had nothing to do with Palestinians. The Palestinian terror campaign would itself be easy to suppress today and eradicate if the Middle East conflict were really a Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Israel would simply obliterate the terrorists and expel their supporters to Syria and Lebanon. The Middle East war continues because it is really an Arab-Israeli war, not an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is also in large part a war between barbarism and civilization. In many ways an Islamic religious jihad against the Jews.
.

-----
Anyone using the excuse that Israel is defying the UN should consider the fact that it is the UNs failed work to "fix" this feuding. They need to shut up and stop making the problem worse.

^That's totally false information coming from an incredibly biased unreliable source, the name Masade should have given away the strong ideological background of that website, if you don't know what Masada is, I suggest you read up on Jewish history.

Anyway most Arabs(like my grandparents) were already living on that land and had been doing so for generations, they were kicked out by the jews, it's totally false that most of them moved there after the jews had started flowing in, that's idiotic Zionist propaganda.

Please do yourself a favour and next time post information from reliable sources, not fringe racist Zionist sites.

I've just got an idea that may help settle the conflicts between Israel and Palestine in Gaza. Artificial land. Since Gaza is bordered to the West by the Mediterranean Sea. Its possible to build artificial land to extend the area of Gaza. The land could be constructed out of garbage, cement, clay, and dirt. The building of the artificial land would most likely cost less than supporting the Israelis. And it would be a good political gesture. The construction project could even bring both countries to help each other (although doubtful.)

^That's totally false information coming from an incredibly biased unreliable source, the name Masade should have given away the strong ideological background of that website, if you don't know what Masada is, I suggest you read up on Jewish history.

Anyway most Arabs(like my grandparents) were already living on that land and had been doing so for generations, they were kicked out by the jews, it's totally false that most of them moved there after the jews had started flowing in, that's idiotic Zionist propaganda.

Please do yourself a favour and next time post information from reliable sources, not fringe racist Zionist sites.

I know what it is. I have heard extremely biased views from both, but this is more in the middle and there is a lot of accurate information listed.

I know what it is. I have heard extremely biased views from both, but this is more in the middle and there is a lot of accurate information listed.

I know there's very biased information from both sides, but what you've posted is not historically accurate, I'm not denying the fact that on that website there might also be a lot of factual information, however the part you quoted is not based on reality.

The forced evictions on Palestinians(Arabs, both Christians and Muslims) is an undeniable historic fact, most Israelis don't even deny that, true some Arabs might have moved to Israeli farms attracted by economic conditions, but the bulk were forcibly removed.