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View Full Version : Why Aren't Computers Easier To Upgrade?


Revvy
2009-01-03, 06:20
It might be easy enough for the likes of us (I assume) to upgrade our PC, but for the majority of the population, opening up the case of a computer is a pretty daunting prospect.

I've always wondered, has anyone actually tried to create a computer which is easy to upgrade? Where RAM can just be slotted in like a memory card, where a hatch can be opened and you can change your processor, and where the hard drives can also easily be removed and added.

I mean, a motherboard is just a circuits, and surely you can build a circuit in any way, shape or form as long as everything's all connected? And why an earth does a new type of processor need a whole socket on the motherboard?! It seems to me that just having a few extra/less pins isn't that important. There must be a way of creating a universal connection between a processor and a computer?

I know technology companies will stand to lose a lot, but that shouldn't have stopped somebody else entering the market by now, marketting a computer which will 'last you a lifetime'.

I always visualised a computer based on seperates, like a hifi system. Like this (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3137/2631476367_7669444312.jpg). You could buy a base component, which may include the basic components, then onto that you could connect a whole variety of modules which you just plug into the back of the base unit. You could buy a cd/dvd rewriter module, where all relevant burning/ripping software is pre-installed and can be controlled via the module itself. So for noob users, they could just enter a cd and press 'rip' on the module and it'll do the task for them.

Or you could attach a gaming module which basically would be a games console you could connect and which you could upgrade every 5 years or so, with joystick, usb ports at the front to add controllers to.

Or a graphic design module which comes preinstalled with various software packages, RAM, and ports at the front to add components to.

The idea would be that through various modules, software and hardware could be designed to work together so it's more effective. It'd also keep the software industry alive as people would have to buy the hardware module for the software to work properly.

RDProgrammer
2009-01-03, 07:17
Didnt read it all sorry, but one main point to remember is that the cost involved in designing a case to meet all the things you listed is quite high. A normal case can be had for $20, one with all the stuff you'd want would even come close for a low end model.

RDP

R. Kelly
2009-01-03, 10:52
Well i think the main reason people think upgrading a PC is difficult is because they fail to educate themselves in what to do and how to do it.

Most if not all PC's really are like you suggested. Changing the Ram is just like plugging in a new stick. PC's are nothing but big expensive legos, nothing more.

Aragami
2009-01-03, 12:57
They are easy to upgrade. But everyone is a dumb shit who can't be stuffed reading a few web pages about how to do it.

Spliffing
2009-01-03, 17:54
OP i completely agree with your point. i think it's something we may or may not see - apple have also opened up the "modular, easy to use computer" market remember - its called the mac. Difference is that you just buy the whole ocmputer as a "module" and upgrading it requires the purchase of a whole new one - which suprise suprise, means more money for the people that make em. and thats what counts.

Lundmark
2009-01-03, 20:21
Custom built pcs are much easier to upgrade than branded computers.
Every Dell, HP, Compaq, or Gateway I have come across has been a bitch to work on. To remove a hard drive, the entire front bezel must be removed, and it is secured by no less then 8 plastic clips. The power supplies are often non standard. The IDE cables are just long enough to reach one hard drive. I bought a few slim form factor pcs, one HP and one Dell. Both of them required some not obvious fanaggling to gain access to the ram.
The Dell's bios will not allow the computer to boot if a device is not specified in the bios.
Manufacturers do not want users upgrading their shit, so they make it difficult.

dfgremnantsunleashed
2009-01-03, 20:31
Custom built pcs are much easier to upgrade than branded computers.
Every Dell, HP, Compaq, or Gateway I have come across has been a bitch to work on. To remove a hard drive, the entire front bezel must be removed, and it is secured by no less then 8 plastic clips. The power supplies are often non standard. The IDE cables are just long enough to reach one hard drive. I bought a few slim form factor pcs, one HP and one Dell. Both of them required some not obvious fanaggling to gain access to the ram.
The Dell's bios will not allow the computer to boot if a device is not specified in the bios.
Manufacturers do not want users upgrading their shit, so they make it difficult.

^This, i am working on an Hp m7000 Media Server PC and my GOD Its a F**king pain in the ass. It has support for 4 Sata drives but i can't even fit on Sata drive in it easily. It has ZERO room for any HDD. I can bet 5$ no normal user can even unscrew the SATA HDD.

OP, i will reply with more detail after some quality sleep.

But i must mention one point. The branded systems aren't mend to be upgraded by the users.



*Holy shit my friend called me and said he felt an earthquake and i didn't felt it! Damn.

MunkeyQ
2009-01-03, 23:16
Custom built pcs are much easier to upgrade than branded computers.
Every Dell, HP, Compaq, or Gateway I have come across has been a bitch to work on. To remove a hard drive, the entire front bezel must be removed, and it is secured by no less then 8 plastic clips. The power supplies are often non standard. The IDE cables are just long enough to reach one hard drive. I bought a few slim form factor pcs, one HP and one Dell. Both of them required some not obvious fanaggling to gain access to the ram.
The Dell's bios will not allow the computer to boot if a device is not specified in the bios.
Manufacturers do not want users upgrading their shit, so they make it difficult.
Gotta disagree on the bit about Dells there. ;)

I have a SFF Dell, and the user's manual actually instructs how to open the case and change parts. Two buttons open the case upwards, and the hard drive is held in place by two clips. The same goes for the optical drive and standard mini-ATX power supply...it's possible to have almost any component out without tools very quickly.

Dell designed their business line of desktops to be entirely tool-less and easy for the office techs to replace parts.

Hung Like Christ
2009-01-04, 01:08
... And why an earth does a new type of processor need a whole socket on the motherboard?! It seems to me that just having a few extra/less pins isn't that important. There must be a way of creating a universal connection between a processor and a computer?


I don't think anyone can plan for the future correctly.
That is; make a computer that has all the sockets you'll need or want in the future.
Even Bill Gates predicted computers would never need more than 64K ram.

It's also, probably a bit of obsolescence, planned or unplanned.
Just like a 1948 engine part won't fit into a 2008 automobile.
To engineer the new engine backwards to fit an older technology is more costly and ultimately less efficient.

An example:
Pentium II's socket had 242 pins.
Pentium 4's had 478 pins.
The Core2's have 775 pins.
The upcoming Intel generation is said to have as many as 1567 pins.
All those pins will have to have their own dedicated motherboard circuits to serve their needs and functions.
The cost and effort to integrate a new processor onto an older motherboard that has way too few circuits onboard, is not feasible.
.
.

Chimro
2009-01-04, 02:39
They are easy to upgrade. But everyone is a dumb shit who can't be stuffed reading a few web pages about how to do it.

This.

PennyTheif502
2009-01-04, 03:45
my sony vaio laptop was as easy as unscrewing ONE screw, cover came right off and the RAM chip plugged right in.

Matt110
2009-01-04, 04:24
Give me a PC build with brand new parts, including the case, and i'll put it together for you in about 10-15 minutes.

It really isn't hard.

R. Kelly
2009-01-04, 07:18
10-15 minutes.

You and I both know it takes longer then that, but i get the point you're trying to make.

Transparent
2009-01-04, 07:52
You and I both know it takes longer then that, but i get the point you're trying to make.

Aye, I have experience building computers. Building a full one takes me 1-2 hours. I'm sure some of you are much faster, but I like to take my time and enjoy myself. I usually don't sit down and do it all in one sitting (last time I cut myself on the case, cursed, left for a few hours, and came back).

Eagle Bay
2009-01-04, 13:11
Dell laptops are a cinch. Official maintenance PDF's are available for free at the dell website. One captive screw on the bottom exposes the RAM, which just pops out. One screw holds in the optical drive, four hold in the hard drive, the dash just pops off with a flathead screwdriver. Removing the palmrest was probably the hardest part.

Compared to my toshiba laptop, which was like trying to crack a coconut open with my bare hands.

Lundmark
2009-01-04, 17:25
Gotta disagree on the bit about Dells there. ;)

I have a SFF Dell, and the user's manual actually instructs how to open the case and change parts. Two buttons open the case upwards, and the hard drive is held in place by two clips. The same goes for the optical drive and standard mini-ATX power supply...it's possible to have almost any component out without tools very quickly.

Dell designed their business line of desktops to be entirely tool-less and easy for the office techs to replace parts.
That is true, but Dell uses nothing but proprietary parts. On the Dell I had, the case had metal contact points for grounding the motherboard circuitry, so if you tried to put that motherboard in any other case, it would not work. I guess if any component fails you could just toss the whole computer except for the CPU.
Dell also has modified chipsets and video hardware. You cant go to intel to get drivers, they have to be from dell in the form of .exes

gerifix
2009-01-04, 18:07
in some cases because they are made that way so you have to buy a new one

Havoc737903
2009-01-04, 18:52
I have to disagree with the OP and others who say branded computers are a pain in the ass to work on. About a year ago, I purchased an HP xw9300 Workstation. Everything is modular. Nothing screws in at all. This is probably the roomiest case I've ever worked on, and the easiest case I've ever worked on. Even the mobo is easy to remove, and that's saying something.

Consumer end computers are not made to be worked on. But drop about a grand for some professional grade equipment, and suddenly it's like you've upgraded from playing with a game boy, to using a supercomputer. And I'm just talking about upgrade-ability.

Caoltan
2009-01-04, 19:54
They are easy to upgrade. But nearly everyone is a dumb shit who can't be stuffed reading a few web pages about how to do it.

This....mostly. Our home PC here though that was bought circa 2001 is a pain in the arse to work with though. You simply cannot remove the fan from the heatsink. I just had to unplug it and strap another quieter on onto it because it was being so bloody loud in the rare cases that it was actually being used that it drove me insane. End of run on line :)

Frank of The Dead
2009-01-04, 23:36
Consumers want cheap products, what you described would be far more expensive and complicated than any consumer, other than forum dwellers, could handle.

Akdor 1154
2009-01-05, 02:37
Computers are easy to upgrade. Apart from forced obsolescence (i.e processor sockets, whether this is money making or for inescapable tech reasons is still up for discussion) pretty much all components are "plug in, screw in, turn on" (apart from the CPU, which is "unclip holder, plug in, clip back in, turn on".

Laptops... now those are a different story. While they're not made with the sole intention of being a bitch to take apart, this is the end result anyway due to the emphasis on low profile. Ever replaced a laptop screen? :(

cooldarkknick
2009-01-05, 04:28
Aye, I have experience building computers. Building a full one takes me 1-2 hours. I'm sure some of you are much faster, but I like to take my time and enjoy myself. I usually don't sit down and do it all in one sitting (last time I cut myself on the case, cursed, left for a few hours, and came back).

I can do a tear-down and rebuild of my computer in about 35 minutes. (Taking everything out, and putting it back in). But, I can only do this because I have done it dozens of times. Give me a different case, and different parts it would probably take me 1-1.5 hours, maybe even 2.

beatmeofficer
2009-01-05, 05:43
In 2007 I was working for an NGO in Mozambique. I also volunteered with a friend to run a computer club at a teacher training college there. For the second or third club meeting, my friend and I disassembled a few old computers and put them on desks. When the students arrived for computer club, they were put into small groups and told that they would be building computers on that day. By looking at an example system and some encouragement to give attention to detail, the students were able to assemble the computers during the 1.5 hour club meeting. If my students who knew very little about computers and came from places where just electricity is a rare commodity can do it, anyone can.

Revvy
2009-01-05, 06:29
If we're going to be taught ICT (information and communication technology i.e. working with PCs). PC building and maintenance should be one of the first things we're taught.

It'd be FAR more useful than some of the other shit we're taught, and in the long run, SO MUCH resources would be saved.

R. Kelly
2009-01-05, 07:31
anyone can.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/shamoo2233/People/Bush.jpg

Hunter66
2009-01-05, 23:03
Computers are easy to upgrade. Apart from forced obsolescence (i.e processor sockets, whether this is money making or for inescapable tech reasons is still up for discussion) pretty much all components are "plug in, screw in, turn on" (apart from the CPU, which is "unclip holder, plug in, clip back in, turn on".

Laptops... now those are a different story. While they're not made with the sole intention of being a bitch to take apart, this is the end result anyway due to the emphasis on low profile. Ever replaced a laptop screen? :(

Exactly what I was thinking. What the op described is pretty much how computers are, except with much less modularization.

Prometheum
2009-01-06, 00:18
This has just been sitting in Hot Topics and I've been itching to respond for a while. Sorry, I haven't read the thread.

The reason why they aren't easier to upgrade is because companies like HP, Dell, and Microsoft want us to think of computers as black boxes. They want to make it seem like anyone who can understand how one of them works is some sort of wizard, messing around with dangerous black majicks. They want to do this because it is more profitable for them.

Think about it. The basic business model of companies like the above is "forget that, ignore that, sign/click here and pay us". Pay them to get a nice computer without having to think about the parts. Pay them to have an operating system that "just works". Pay them to have something, anything. If you do something else, well, blather blather blather FUD FUD FUD.

This is the real reason why free software/"open source" is so scary for microsoft. Free software opens the black box. You can see inside it and study how it works, and read papers synthesizing it into easy abstractions, if you're into that. The point is, the box is public knowledge. It's more like a car, a well-known device that basically everyone is familiar with (who can't change a tire or even describe generally how a combustion engine works?), than something else, like a microwave or a toaster, that is inherently closed. You don't see a lot of people hot-rodding their toasters.

If the average user actually took a few minutes to understand what the fuck was going on with their machine, they'd probably ascend to what they think is "guru" level, but what is actually "slightly more informed asshole" level. They'd be able to tell salespeople to fuck off with Norton or McAfee, because they know that ClaimWin and <Whatever AV here> has a database that's 10 times as large and updated more frequently. They'd look at the price tag on a pre-built piece of shit and just build their own box (yes, computers are basically big silicone-and-metal legos, and it's easy as fuck for anyone to do). But what would that do for Dell's profit margin? What would that mean for Vista sales?

The focal point of the "computing industry" is keeping people ignorant. It's trying to encourage use of the computer as an appliance, like a toaster, rather than a personalizable life fixture, like a car. Eventually, they'll just want us all to use point-and-click kiosk-type boxes so all we can do is shop on the damn things.

I think this is even more systemic than end-user vendors like HP/Dell/M$. Why the fuck are CPU's so weak? Aren't chips supposed to double every year or something? Why are we still using an architecture that is crippled to support 8-bit code running on it? Why is a fucking game console a better and more powerful machine than the average fucking desktop?

Anyone on Totse is probably pretty rare and enlightened compared to the average person. Let's try this: every poster here tries to "de-blackbox" someone. Teach them how to use GNU/Linux, or how to build their own computer. Get them to realize that a computer is just a tool, and something that they can control. It isn't some demon they need to appease ("it only works every third reboot") or demigod they need to bow to. It's a fucking computer. The world needs to realize this before we slip into the toaster-mindset too deeply.

MunkeyQ
2009-01-06, 00:48
^^
See my replies.

Dell have completely turned around in the last 10 years. Remember how their desktops were like Fort Knox with hidden clips and buttons? Now they actually tell you in the manual how to open the case - two big buttons in most cases - and how to remove and replace parts. As I said, almost every part can be replaced without tools.

They also list the service manual for every computer and laptop on their website, which is a big one-up over basically every other manufacturer. IBM are the only other company I know of who do this. Very handy if you don't know how to take apart that old Dell laptop to clean the keyboard for example.

I know by now I probably sound like a Dell salesman...but I'm not. I just like their laptops...well, not the plastic shit Inspirons.


You do raise some good points there. The same goes for a lot of consumer electronics IMO...I can relate that to the hi-fi forum I post on. People come in wanting to buy some shitty Creative satellite system, overpriced Bose piece of junk or the latest 10,000w plastic all-in-one abomination from Philips - because it "just works". We educate them and let them know the bullshit that big-box stores spew, and say what's best for the money. It's amazing what people believe....

OdayJuarez
2009-01-06, 01:22
They reason they don't turn PC components in to lego's is a matter of heat disappation. The components are air cooled so they need to be exposed to the internal case air flow. Putting them in pretty plastic cases would constrict airflow and the parts would get unnecessarily hot for the sake of idiot proofing something that's already pretty damn easy. The performance cost of underclocking for the sake of not intimidating ludites is not worth it. The juice ain't worth the squeeze.

rabbhimself
2009-01-06, 01:42
I've got the Dell XPS 420 (Fully upgraded with the QuadCore and 4GB RAM for only £620 inc delivery...Yay.) ...and it's easy as hell to 'customize'.

Like it's been mentioned, the case is simple to open (the XPS case has a slide at the top that you pull towards the back of the unit to open the main side) and access to any drives, RAM, expansion cards, etc is right in front of you.

The cable management is pretty good as well and the HDD caddies make life that little bit easier.

Wouldn't have looked twice at a Dell a few years ago, but I've loved this rig since I got it.

SLice_760
2009-01-08, 16:26
I would hate it if computers were as easy to work on as the OP described. Messing with computers seems to be an elitist thing, it wouldn't be as fun if everyone and their mothers could do it. It's already easy enough, with SATA drives that do not require jumpers, jumperfree motherboards, and plug 'n' play devices.

Even though I'm 17, and the old days of DOS were a bit before my time, I would feel comfortable reverting back to the old days when you had to manually configure everything. I just need to get around to learning Linux (or GNU/Linux for you sensitive types...)

I have to say though, it is nice everything being easy. I just don't want it to be TOO easy.

MunkeyQ
2009-01-08, 17:04
I would hate it if computers were as easy to work on as the OP described. Messing with computers seems to be an elitist thing, it wouldn't be as fun if everyone and their mothers could do it. It's already easy enough, with SATA drives that do not require jumpers, jumperfree motherboards, and plug 'n' play devices.

Even though I'm 17, and the old days of DOS were a bit before my time, I would feel comfortable reverting back to the old days when you had to manually configure everything. I just need to get around to learning Linux (or GNU/Linux for you sensitive types...)

I have to say though, it is nice everything being easy. I just don't want it to be TOO easy.
Wait...that makes little sense. You don't want it becoming easy because then everyone can do it and it's more difficult to stand out? ;)

Manually configuring things is painful. Remember the days when you had to manually enter in the cylinders, heads and sectors of your hard drive in the BIOS? That's no fun...:D

SLice_760
2009-01-12, 01:57
Wait...that makes little sense. You don't want it becoming easy because then everyone can do it and it's more difficult to stand out? ;)

Manually configuring things is painful. Remember the days when you had to manually enter in the cylinders, heads and sectors of your hard drive in the BIOS? That's no fun...:D

I would get annoyed if upgrading computers was something anyone could do. The community just wouldn't be the same.

Anyway, I don't remember when you had to manually configure cylinders, heads, and sectors on drives (but you still can on some older comps), but I do remember trying to configure mscdex on DOS to try and get the fucking CD-ROM working! The first comps I learned to build I had to do that on, it sucked. I felt pretty great when I got the comp working finally though. If everything was just plug and play I wouldn't feel as special for getting something to work, it would be boring.

The Chip Shop Guy
2009-01-13, 20:23
My laptop has one screw to access the RAM, which just clicks out.

One screw to acces the HDD which slides in almost exactly like the one on the PS3.

And one screw for the DVD drive which also slides in and out in a similar way to the HDD.

Three screws, three components, not a single wire.

It's a Toshiba Equium A100, by the way.

Kleenex
2009-01-14, 22:23
The real problem with upgrading computers isn't screwing in/attaching different components, it's the compatibility issues that arise from using parts from different manufacturers.

SLice_760
2009-01-16, 22:22
My laptop has one screw to access the RAM, which just clicks out.

One screw to acces the HDD which slides in almost exactly like the one on the PS3.

And one screw for the DVD drive which also slides in and out in a similar way to the HDD.

Three screws, three components, not a single wire.

It's a Toshiba Equium A100, by the way.

Laptops are tedious to work on though, so they are one exception to my idea. However, not everyone can change parts on them because not everyone knows anything about computers haha. It's quite difficult to change a hard drive on a laptop if you do not know what a hard drive is I bet :p