Was invading Gaza really necessary? I mean is it that fucking hard to find a guy with a mig welder, thousands of pounds of cain sugar, and a perchlorate mill in a fucking refugee camp? My guess is that its the guy with working electricity. I'm guessing the suspect wont have running water, because he ripped up all the pips to make them into rockets.

You're assuming that one guy is building rockets, and that he is building them in Gaza whereas this is likely not the case given the structure of Hamas.

This thread is dangerously close to politics, so I just want to warn everyone to keep it civil.

Personally, I think that Israel is completely in the right to invade Gaza and the West bank if they so choose because not a month after Israel made the very unpopular move of removing their citizens from the areas and giving the land to the Palestinians for no real reason, they were attacked with missiles. The poor range of Kasaam style weaponry can be offset by buffer zones to minimize casualties in large cities and risk to Israel's nuclear facitilies. If Hamas uses any of their larger missiles for greater range, they are easier to find and target.

Also, as a longtime BB member, I can tell you that it isn't particularly easy to track down even one individual with explosive components, not to mention a small cell.

Israel needs to be stopped. Seriously, the way the Palestinians are forced to live is horrendous.

Not that I like Islamic extremists, but those Israeli's are fucked.

Do you really care? In a world so overpopulated do you really care about the deaths of a bunch of religious extremists? Honestly can anyone out there really bring themselves to care about the destruction of a nation which you have never visited and in which human beings reside that you have never met? I don't even give a shit what war it is, Iraq, Afghanistan, fuck it go to war with North Korea I'd even sign up for that shit just because I'm so curious of what it's like there. Who the fuck cares, war is good; there are WAY too many people on Earth right now.

You're assuming that one guy is building rockets, and that he is building them in Gaza whereas this is likely not the case given the structure of Hamas.

This thread is dangerously close to politics, so I just want to warn everyone to keep it civil.

Personally, I think that Israel is completely in the right to invade Gaza and the West bank if they so choose because not a month after Israel made the very unpopular move of removing their citizens from the areas and giving the land to the Palestinians for no real reason, they were attacked with missiles. The poor range of Kasaam style weaponry can be offset by buffer zones to minimize casualties in large cities and risk to Israel's nuclear facitilies. If Hamas uses any of their larger missiles for greater range, they are easier to find and target.

Also, as a longtime BB member, I can tell you that it isn't particularly easy to track down even one individual with explosive components, not to mention a small cell.

Why can't they use radar to triangulate to the launch sites of the rockets?

Israel needs to show those fuckbags who their daddy is :D

Praise the Lord that the US economy is going to crash, Russia has decided to support Palestine, and China and Russia are going to be the new big players in global affairs, ahead of the USA.

Goodbye Israel. The end is near for you.

I'm with israel, I'd be pretty pissed off if some asshole was lobbing rockets into my backyard too!

I'm against anything American politics has a hand in.

Like training and arming AQ, whilst knowing the whole time what extremist Islam was about.

Yea, that's a very good point.

I'm with israel, I'd be pretty pissed off if some asshole was lobbing rockets into my backyard too!

The problem with Israel is that you don't know who that asshole is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

I'm against anything American politics has a hand in.

Like training and arming AQ, whilst knowing the whole time what extremist Islam was about.

What about America protecting Australians from becoming human tatami mats in WWII?

What about Australians helping America wherever they need it?

What about Australia asking for American help in East Timor/Timor-Leste, and being refused help unless America gets to be in charge of the whole operation?

What about allowing Pine Gap to be built?

Hey America, the day you tell Australia to get fucked, is the day Pine Gap gets jammed. When that happens, your strategic nuclear subs are fucked, and you are vulnerable to getting nuked without being able to retaliate to your full potential.

Anyway, when did America do anything for anyone, apart from those Israeli scumbags, that was purely altruistic, recent history now? Aid after tsunami and things don't count. They might have been helping, or they might have realised that if they didn't they'd look even worse.

The America of today is not the America of years past.

What about Australians helping America wherever they need it?

Come again?


What about Australia asking for American help in East Timor/Timor-Leste, and being refused help unless America gets to be in charge of the whole operation?

We ought to be.

What about allowing Pine Gap to be built?


Come again?

Hey America, the day you tell Australia to get fucked, is the day Pine Gap gets jammed. When that happens, your strategic nuclear subs are fucked, and you are vulnerable to getting nuked without being able to retaliate to your full potential.

When that happens you become an aborigine.


Anyway, when did America do anything for anyone, apart from those Israeli scumbags, that was purely altruistic, recent history now? Aid after tsunami and things don't count. They might have been helping, or they might have realised that if they didn't they'd look even worse.


Bailing out france/england/german people/iraq/afghanistan/africans/basically everyone in the world and at no cost at all. Man I'm so proud to be an American, America bailed EVERYONE'S sorry ass out. That's why everyone has got a chip on their god damned shoulder.

Come again?

Vietnam for a start. Iraq. Afghanistan. Lots of other places. Allowing Americans to train in Australia to get experience here. CIA/DELTA whoever else allowed to train in Australia to experience similar conditions to Afghanistan and places in the ME. Do you know what goes on at Shaolwater bay when we let those fucks come here?

We ought to be.

Why? So your lot can fuck the situation up, just like they do everywhere else?


Come again?

Pine Gap. NSA base or something in central Australia. Supposed to be used as a relay station for the American missile boats.

When that happens you become an aborigine.

And when that happens there is no longer anyone above ground alive in the USA.

Bailing out france/england/german people/iraq/afghanistan/africans/basically everyone in the world and at no cost at all. Man I'm so proud to be an American, America bailed EVERYONE'S sorry ass out. That's why everyone has got a chip on their god damned shoulder.

In recent history, all America has done is shadowy covert shit in order to gain global domination. We can thank the USA's misguided interference for the global situation we now find ourselves in.

Empires rise and empires fall. The door is closed on the USA and Israel. Love and freedom will hopefully replace the awful situation we now find ourselves in, thanks to the corrupt political/corporate system known as America and their mates the Israelis.

Why can't they use radar to triangulate to the launch sites of the rockets?

They are very small and portable. It's like using radar to determine the launch sites of mortars in Iraq. It's really difficult to do in any appreciable amount of time without the people having left already.



Regardless of the very checkered history behind Israel and every other country on the face of this planet, the fact that Israel gave the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians with no strings attached should be considered admirable. The fact that Hamas and Hezbollah used this gifted land to launch attacks against Israel is abominable, and as far as I am concerned, if those organizations really are stupid enough to expect Israel to let that fly, they deserve to get wiped out.


The Palestinians do have a lot of problems, but Israel is not the source of them. Despite the fact that Israel has hindered Palestinians in the past, and can be annoying with their necessary checkpoints, Palestine had some land unto itself, Israel has recently tried to reach agreements with Egypt to maintain a sovereign Palestinian state, and yet despite this, Palestinians have not progressed much infrastructurally. I know Palestinian dissidents and I know Israeli citizens. If the Palestinian government were really interested in helping their people instead of waging wars with militant sects, fighting Israel, and gathering power to themselves, the Palestinian people would have been much better off. It's government. It's bureaucracy. People abuse their power. Nothing is new about this, and anyone who's done any government work has witnessed some of it, at least on a small scale. Hopefully on a small scale. It's inevitable.


Some of you really don't understand History. Things like the Korean and Vietnam War had little to nothing to do with US dominating other countries. They had to do with upholding treaties passed by Congress and presidential cabinet members.

They are very small and portable. It's like using radar to determine the launch sites of mortars in Iraq. It's really difficult to do in any appreciable amount of time without the people having left already.


Okay simple solution:


Figure out the max range of the rockets they are using for x.

y equals a buffer zone radius (think of it like a pie crust)

All units are in miles

x+2=y

That might be why they are takening the gaza strip back, to make that buffer zone.

Or they could just use uav's fitting with Flir over probable launch sites.....

Okay simple solution:


Figure out the max range of the rockets they are using for x.

y equals a buffer zone radius (think of it like a pie crust)

All units are in miles

x+2=y


These are disposable rockets. You can set them up to remotely fire very cheaply. It's unlikely you'll find any evidence of who launched them. You might be able to find a launch site, but that's really about it. They could be fired from any backyard, rooftop, alleyway, etc. in theory.



That might be why they are takening the gaza strip back, to make that buffer zone.

Or they could just use uav's fitting with Flir over probable launch sites.....

Israel doesn't make a lot of money. They can barely afford UAV's if they even have any. Almost all of Israel's technology is either a couple generations outdated US hardware, or stolen US hardware that was backwards engineered. Their budget is primarily used for their defense budget, and even that is tiny. They just can't afford building UAV's, maintaining them, equipping them with FLIR, sending them out on a whim that they'll get attacked that day, and then logistically respond before the culprits have left. The US couldn't do it effectively in Iraq with billions of dollars until they got lucky from a couple of tips and caught mortars being set up one day (in a place they'd been fired from before, lazily enough). Mortars are fairly recognizable. It's not too hard to disguise an IED, or to a lesser extent, a homemade rocket.

These are disposable rockets. You can set them up to remotely fire very cheaply. It's unlikely you'll find any evidence of who launched them. You might be able to find a launch site, but that's really about it. They could be fired from any backyard, rooftop, alleyway, etc. in theory.

So we are dealing with maybe a 16 ounce payload with what kind of range?

Also, I think most rockets used for warfare are disposable. ;)



Israel doesn't make a lot of money. They can barely afford UAV's if they even have any. Almost all of Israel's technology is either a couple generations outdated US hardware, or stolen US hardware that was backwards engineered. Their budget is primarily used for their defense budget, and even that is tiny. They just can't afford building UAV's, maintaining them, equipping them with FLIR, sending them out on a whim that they'll get attacked that day, and then logistically respond before the culprits have left. The US couldn't do it effectively in Iraq with billions of dollars until they got lucky from a couple of tips and caught mortars being set up one day (in a place they'd been fired from before, lazily enough). Mortars are fairly recognizable. It's not too hard to disguise an IED, or to a lesser extent, a homemade rocket.

Okay, that paints a more clear picture, but what is more expensive, a fullscale deployment of ground forces or 5 UAV's or even helos (I don't know much about the Israeli airforce)


If you insist on using grunts, why not deploy sniper teams instead of gearing up for an occupation?

So we are dealing with maybe a 16 ounce payload with what kind of range?

Also, I think most rockets used for warfare are disposable. ;)



Kassam rockets have varying payloads, but most versions range from .5 kilos to 10 kilos in payload, and have ranges from 3-10km. Of course, this varies. Also, you're not taking into account that payload counts for little if you have many, many rockets. This was the threat of the Katyusha. Typically, early Katyusha payloads were twice as large as the latest mass-produced Kassam variations, but had half the range. They were also more difficult to maintain as you can't launch them out of a PVC pipe, or from a stick with some duct tape.


Ah, I suppose I misspoke about the disposability, but I was taking into account the entirety of the weapon system (launcher, etc.). This is especially the pertinent in that it is not the case for many of the threats that Israel has historically faced as with Hezbollah (Katyusha rockets). Katyusha rocket launchers were difficult for Israel to locate, but were destroyed very easily once found since they are vehicle-based launchers.


Okay, that paints a more clear picture, but what is more expensive, a fullscale deployment of ground forces or 5 UAV's or even helos (I don't know much about the Israeli airforce)


If you insist on using grunts, why not deploy sniper teams instead of gearing up for an occupation?

1. Israel, to my knowledge, doesn't really have UAV's. They're expensive. They can't afford to lose any. They have plenty of conscripts, and you don't own something until you have the boots on the ground. They do have relatively nice Apache helicopters.

2. I don't insist on using anything. Israel wants to keep the land as a buffer zone, it seems. The only way to do this is with ground troops.

Pine Gap. NSA base or something in central Australia. Supposed to be used as a relay station for the American missile boats.


Among other things, which the Australians benefit from. It's not the only facility that does what it does in many aspects. The US has redundancies. A better example would be the massive wargame of Operation Talisman Sabre, which Australia also benefited from. Australia doesn't just train US troops. We have the Personnel Exchange Program. The US, Israel, Australia, the UK, etc. all exchange tactics. I personally know some of my friends in the 82nd Airborne in particular exchanged MOUT tactics with IDF troops after Time Magazine published their (US) contemporary tactics. I had discussed with them several techniques which had been widely adopted by HSLD SWAT types from people such as [names edited]. The IDF also helps train Krav Maga to some units, as the US is always expanding their H2H.

Don't act like Australia is America's bitch. It's not a gimp. Both sides benefit from the arrangement. If you think that the US is purely altruistically motivated by Israel, your view on America's past is extremely naive. Diplomacy doesn't really work that way, it never has, and it never will for anyone. It's politics. Ever since the first human, people have been selfish. Ever since the first stemmings of diplomacy in Florence Italy during the quattrocento, and with the Ottoman Turks during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent, there has been international political corruption. Prior to that, it was with the secular and religious governments. Prior to that, within the family. Prior to that....

Lunch break.



1. Israel, to my knowledge, doesn't really have UAV's. They're expensive. They can't afford to lose any. They have plenty of conscripts, and you don't own something until you have the boots on the ground. They do have relatively nice Apache helicopters.

2. I don't insist on using anything. Israel wants to keep the land as a buffer zone, it seems. The only way to do this is with ground troops.

This is, in my assessment, an extension of the Lebanon/Hezbollah tactic of pushing the "bad guys" into another country, such as Egypt, and making it the Arab country's problem. Palestinians aren't Arabs, and no Arab country is going to risk getting their asses handed to them like Lebanon (a huge show of force and willingness on Israel's part) over some outsiders who are a threat to your own government (as Hezbollah had started to usurp the ruling parties in Lebanon politically). Do remember how Hamas executed Fatah members. There is a lot of internal conflict among these groups/countries.

Kassam rockets have varying payloads, but most versions range from .5 kilos to 10 kilos in payload, and have ranges from 3-10km. Of course, this varies. Also, you're not taking into account that payload counts for little if you have many, many rockets. This was the threat of the Katyusha. Typically, early Katyusha payloads were twice as large as the latest mass-produced Kassam variations, but had half the range. They were also more difficult to maintain as you can't launch them out of a PVC pipe, or from a stick with some duct tape.

Sounds good as long as you have enough propellant for the rockets. It also seems like a good idea considering the rockets do not have a guidance system, so they get a better hit probability if they use more rockets.

They can seriously launch them from sticks with duct tape? I'll have to google search some images.


Ah, I suppose I misspoke about the disposability, but I was taking into account the entirety of the weapon system (launcher, etc.). This is especially the pertinent in that it is not the case for many of the threats that Israel has historically faced as with Hezbollah (Katyusha rockets). Katyusha rocket launchers were difficult for Israel to locate, but were destroyed very easily once found since they are vehicle-based launchers.

Makes even more sense now. With a remote or timed firing system they can just set up hit "start" and run away without losing any valuable equipment.


1. Israel, to my knowledge, doesn't really have UAV's. They're expensive. They can't afford to lose any. They have plenty of conscripts, and you don't own something until you have the boots on the ground. They do have relatively nice Apache helicopters.

So why not fly the Apaches around the clock? Support and logistics for them can't be that bad. If Israel can pull off an air strike on Iraq's nuclear powerplant, they should be able to conduct aerial surveillance.


2. I don't insist on using anything. Israel wants to keep the land as a buffer zone, it seems. The only way to do this is with ground troops.

This is more along the lines of what I'm thinking.


I'll look into Hamas tactics. I'm not that great when it comes to understanding politics.

Sounds good as long as you have enough propellant for the rockets. It also seems like a good idea considering the rockets do not have a guidance system, so they get a better hit probability if they use more rockets.

They can seriously launch them from sticks with duct tape? I'll have to google search some images.

Yep. Put a stake in the ground and tape a rocket to it.



So why not fly the Apaches around the clock? Support and logistics for them can't be that bad. If Israel can pull off an air strike on Iraq's nuclear powerplant, they should be able to conduct aerial surveillance.


Apaches are technologically pretty advanced, Israel has a small supply of them, the maintenance of helicopters is intense because of all the friction and forces the materials have to put up with, they make great targets if you fly them around regularly stopping to look at things, pilots are difficult to train, and they really can't risk losing them. The logistics of flying multiple helicopters on patrol day and night would burn through a lot of cash fast.

Air strikes, on the other hand, are decisive, quick missions with much less risk to the attackers with air superiority as the attacker is able to choose the time of conflict. If they patrolled on the other hand, the enemy could arm themselves with RPG or anti-aircraft rocketry to supplement the Kassam rockets they'd be firing anyway. The enemy would also effectively be choosing both the battleground and the time of confrontation, which might negate the advantage of air superiority. Israel can't take the risk of losing too many of their high tech toys. They've had their Apache Longbows for at least a couple decades due to managing them very well.

The alternative of pushing Hamas into Egypt, the only Arab nation to recognize Israel, is the smartest course of action for the Israeli government, in my opinion.

1. Israel, to my knowledge, doesn't really have UAV's. They're expensive. They can't afford to lose any. They have plenty of conscripts, and you don't own something until you have the boots on the ground. They do have relatively nice Apache helicopters.



so israel cant afford some toy planes yet can field a ground war and artillery yet palastine just has all these rockets lying around

All I have to say is I really don't care, like someone said who really cares the worlds over populated enough so. As far as im concerned if all the crazy religous nuts over there wanta kill each other have the fuck at it. And considering they were getting rocketed its more then OK to attack the other people. As for the whole israel thing and how everyone wants to fight over the lands and shit why doesn't someone just drop a few nuclear bombs on the mother fucker and say "Fight over it now bitchs" because who's really going to fight over some radioactive desolate wastelands? Anyone dumb enough to would be dead soon enough thanks to radiation poisoning.

so israel cant afford some toy planes yet can field a ground war and artillery yet palastine just has all these rockets lying around

Yes. Do you know how much a drone costs, how slow they fly, how loud they are, and subsequently easy to shoot down they are? The technology involved in building them? They're not toys. You show extreme ignorance in that statement There've been tanks since the First World War. There've been effective UAV's a few years. The technology is in robotics, and is guarded fairly closely versus technology in mechanics which is decades and decades old, and thus extremely available in terms of acquisition, repair, etc. Spending some cash on an infantry movement that gains Israel territory and forces someone else to deal with the problem longterm is a cost-effective solution. Spying on advanced nations, stealing schematics, building UAVs, trying to maintain them, using them without any real experience, and then not gaining any land on top of that is pointless in comparison. There's no longterm gain. There really isn't even a short term gain. It's also not immediate.

You also obviously don't understand what a Kassam rocket is. You could build one, amazingly enough. It's like a model rocket with a HE payload. Don't even get me started on explosives.

You also seem to not understand that Hamas is a multi-national organization with cells even within the United States. Rockets and missiles aren't exactly hard to find on the illegal arms market. "Real" rockets and missiles, even. The kind that put Kassam rockets to shame.




I'll look into Hamas tactics.

If you're interested, they smuggle weapons in from as many countries as possible, such as Hezbollah, but have learned from the recent mistakes of Hezbollah. Israel used their new Arrow Weapon System developed between them and the US (both sides benefit, again something I feel that some individuals here just don't understand, not speaking of you) to locate the launch sites of Katyusha rockets and devastate the forces using them. Because of this Hamas tends to use cheap, non-vehicle-based rockets when possible and launch from as many locations with as many as they can at once, so that Israel can't possible deal with all the missiles or warn their citizens to leave. Hamas also calls in cease fires frequently in order to regroup and rearm under the guise of diplomatic talks, then either allows them to end or breaks them in order to attack Israel.

Now whileI am not a fan of the arabs in general, there lifestyle, there ideals, there culture, etc. I will say I respect them as a people in a way I would respect any living person. However Israel is a fucked up little country that has more of Americas support then all of Europe ATM. There middle east policy is dragging us down into an abyss that is bound to cause the next World War if you ask me. I hope as many Israeli's die as Arabs. They are both dip shits in two exact opposite ways. If we didn't support Israel in 2 of its 3 wars they would have been crushed, they know that, we know that and thats that.

The way Israel was even created was just so fuckng wrong in so many ways and if you talk to ANY jew they will say Israel is a just nation but if you ask them if its there land they say its rightfully there's through biblical means. The jews were basically dropped into the middle east and said we own this land since our god said its ours thousands of years ago in a book. This caused war in which America being the main super power supported Israel while Russia sided with the arabs. Look it up its in the books Russia always supported the arabs mainly to spite the U.S. then and now.

Without us Israel would have been nothing and without our technology and our help they would still be nothing, hell they would do exactly as they promised if that was the case and "Push the Israeli's to the sea".

That's exactly the kind of controversial political statement that could be vehemently argued against that I don't want in this forum.

Please keep discussion pertinent to the invasion of the Gaza strip, as the OP had asked about.

Yes. Do you know how much a drone costs, how slow they fly, how loud they are, and subsequently easy to shoot down they are? The technology involved in building them? They're not toys. You show extreme ignorance in that statement There've been tanks since the First World War. There've been effective UAV's a few years. The technology is in robotics, and is guarded fairly closely versus technology in mechanics which is decades and decades old, and thus extremely available in terms of acquisition, repair, etc. Spending some cash on an infantry movement that gains Israel territory and forces someone else to deal with the problem longterm is a cost-effective solution. Spying on advanced nations, stealing schematics, building UAVs, trying to maintain them, using them without any real experience, and then not gaining any land on top of that is pointless in comparison. There's no longterm gain. There really isn't even a short term gain. It's also not immediate.



im not convinced that the only drone option is the overpriced type in ur post.
its like someone saying u need a state of the art cctv system costing $1000s to protect ur prperty when a couple of cameras would do just as well for a fraction of the price.

im not convinced that the only drone option is the overpriced type in ur post.
its like someone saying u need a state of the art cctv system costing $1000s to protect ur prperty when a couple of cameras would do just as well for a fraction of the price.

Well, you're wrong. Israel has a few drones, but first off, most of them have no offensive capabilities. Why send drones out just to use soldiers later when you can send soldiers?

Secondly, drones don't have defensive capability, and they are loud and extremely slow. You WILL lose them, and then you will be out an expensive drone, regardless of what you want to believe. Tanks and soldiers don't cost as much, can be armored, and can fight back.

Plus, Israel wants to gain land. Why not gain resources? It will provide a buffer of less-populated terrain, can be used for more Arrow Weapons System missile defense shield space, and can dramatically lessen rocket attacks, plus provide more area to install checkpoints. More checkpoints probably mean less gunmen sneaking in, etc.

Plus, Israel wants to gain land. Why not gain resources? It will provide a buffer of less-populated terrain, can be used for more Arrow Weapons System missile defense shield space, and can dramatically lessen rocket attacks, plus provide more area to install checkpoints. More checkpoints probably mean less gunmen sneaking in, etc.

That's true, I was just under the impression that conquest wasn't still okay.

im not convinced that the only drone option is the overpriced type in ur post.
its like someone saying u need a state of the art cctv system costing $1000s to protect ur prperty when a couple of cameras would do just as well for a fraction of the price.

Yeah that is true but the $1000 CCTV system will probably be a lot better than the fraction of the cost one, most UAV's flying today can go from $1000-$26 Million dollars. It just depends what your willing to pay for the sake of good old reconnaissance.

Plus, Israel wants to gain land. Why not gain resources? It will provide a buffer of less-populated terrain, can be used for more Arrow Weapons System missile defense shield space, and can dramatically lessen rocket attacks, plus provide more area to install checkpoints. More checkpoints probably mean less gunmen sneaking in, etc.

I'm still reading up on tactics, so don't think I forgot about your post on them.

This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. A full scale occupation isn't simply to stop rockets even though it makes somewhat of a good cover story.

AWS seems to be more advanced that the patriot as well.

prevention of rocket attacks pretty difficult, simply because the equipment to create them is easy to obtain and cells can just pop up anywhere. launch sites can also easily vary.

so really, even if UAVs successfully neutralise a few cells, israel really has to keep them maintained indefinitely, which is something they really cant afford. i mean, making a few rockets could cost less than $100 to set up, and a bit less to make enough for a barrage, where it takes millions to maintain an arsenal of UAVs

so you can probably tell that i dont think a ground invasion would really do anything. new cells would just appear once the old ones are dead.

so you can probably tell that i dont think a ground invasion would really do anything. new cells would just appear once the old ones are dead.

Huh? A temporary invasion followed by a withdrawal, sure. An invasion gains land, necessitates larger rockets to reach densely populated areas, and can be used to launch anti-missile weapons from, dramatically increasing the chances that a rocket would be shot down.

Plus, Israel gains resources, and can install more checkpoints to increase the probability of finding explosives and weapons shipments attempted to be smuggled in-country.

What you should have posted was "no, for political reasons."

Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.
Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them,...we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians,and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank,so that in 25 years' time,neither the United Nations nor the United States,nobody,will be able to tear it apart.
Ariel Sharon

My heart sings. There were 200 Arab villages here, which no longer exist. It was necessary to demolish them, otherwise here, too, as in Galilee, there would be another million Arabs in our midst. After 2,000 years of exile, it's impossible to establish a state with kid gloves.
Yitzhak Pundak

"Every discussion of the Palestinians as equal human beings born in the image of God is termed "treasonous," the language of "Arab lovers." Therefore, there is no language or democratic discourse that supports disengagement and rejects a referendum.
Lev Greenberg

"Hamas was also established under Israel's aegis and with its encouragement."
Reuven Pedatzur

Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online.

^ That one is particularly sick.

Everybody has to move,run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them.
Ariel Sharon

Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.
Benyamin Netanyahu

"I say we lift off...and nuke the site from orbit.....it's the only way to be sure."

Aliens is never wrong :D .

Politics stay in the right forum.

prevention of rocket attacks pretty difficult, simply because the equipment to create them is easy to obtain and cells can just pop up anywhere. launch sites can also easily vary.

so really, even if UAVs successfully neutralise a few cells, israel really has to keep them maintained indefinitely, which is something they really cant afford. i mean, making a few rockets could cost less than $100 to set up, and a bit less to make enough for a barrage, where it takes millions to maintain an arsenal of UAVs

so you can probably tell that i dont think a ground invasion would really do anything. new cells would just appear once the old ones are dead.

Yeah excactly i mean UAV's are quite useful don't get me wrong, by rockets are just so much cheaper and easier to deploy.

Lunch break.

Palestinians aren't Arabs.

As the son of a Palestinian parent I find this statement interesting, care to elaborate?

The Palestinian leadership both in Gaza and in the West Bank is certainly to blame for the dire conditions in which average people are now forced to live, however they are only partly to blame.

I totally agree that Israel has a right to defend itself and its citizens from aggression, I do agree that Hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilians, which seem to have no military purpose whatsoever and are criminal in nature, must be stopped.

I also agree that Hamas is a criminal entity and that the world would be a better place if the organization would cease to exist (the same can be said of Hizbullah and of settlers and ultra-orthodox Jewish groups)

However Israel's heavy handed approach of criminalizing the entire Palestinian population, it's lack of respect for human life (only of the Arabs that is) and its strategy of collective punishment, will only lead to more hatred and violence.

Even though terrorist acts from individuals from the West Bank have been drastically reduced, and the PA and Abbas have adopted a peaceful attitude, Israel has so far failed to reduce its strangling grip over the West Bank nor it has stopped the illegal settlements.

Many always blame the Palestinians of being parasitic, arguing that they just wait for international aid without engaging in any economic activities, however it must be noted that Israel prevents any sort of economic expansion from happening.

You cannot have economic growth when a foreign country closes your borders, the free flow of goods and wealth is a basic requirement to enable a growth pattern to be put into action, when you are prevented from attracting foreign investments, there is no way you can prosper.

Let's face it, Israel should use a stick and carrot approach, unfortunately it has only been using the stick, the PA has recognized Israel's right to exist, it has renounced to its goal of retaking the whole of Palestine, it has also tried to keep Islamist extremist at bay.

That should have lead Israel to ease the restrictions a little, reduce the check points, allow the flow of goods and wealth, allow workers to cross the border, that way Abbas could have shown the Palestinian people that collaborating with Israel does pay, that there are tangible improvements in adopting a peaceful stance, that prosperity and stability can be achieved.

Anyway, I also have to say that I despise radical Islam (well most religious extremist actually, regardless of denomination), and that I cannot feel any sympathy for Hamas militants, however the slaughter of civilians could have been avoided, I think it's pretty clear to me that the IDF doesn't give a damn about the welfare of the civilian population and that knowingly using heavy ordnance in densely populated areas equates to deliberatly targeting civilians.

In that, on a purely moral ground I see no difference between the IDF and the military wing of Hamas.

As the son of a Palestinian parent I find this statement interesting, care to elaborate?
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Palestinian


the slaughter of civilians could have been avoided, I think it's pretty clear to me that the IDF doesn't give a damn about the welfare of the civilian population and that knowingly using heavy ordnance in densely populated areas equates to deliberatly targeting civilians.


Care to support that? How could the IDF reduce civilian casualties without risking their own troops?

Well they are using extremely potent weaponry on targets that are mainly of a civilian nature, they are even using white phosphorous on densely populated neighbourhoods.

It's the same with the targeted killings they used to do a few years back, let's say a car carrying a militant leader is driving trough Gaza city, the car happens to be in a market street in the middle of the day and it's surrounded by civilians shopping.

If in that moment you fire a missile on that car, and you are perfectly aware of the destructive power of that weapon you are using, you know that everything within a certain radius will die, but still go on and fire that missile on that car even though your target happens to be surrounded by innocent bystanders who will most certainly die, then in my book you're no better than a terrorist who deliberately targets innocent folks.

In this latest conflict they are pounding areas where they know women and children might be present, with no regard for human life whatsoever, that is criminal behaviour, if the Russians or the Serbs were doing what the Israeli are doing in Gaza there would be a major global outcry.

It's not just me saying that but several rational Israeli commentators are also disgusted by their government's actions, I was just reading some articles this morning by Gideon Levy, he was a spokeman for Peres for over ten years and now writes for Haaretz.

As far as reducing their casualties, well I think that on a strategic point of view that's one of the lessons they should have learned from the 2006 war in Lebanon and that is that air power alone does not win wars.

If you want to have long term tangible results on the ground then you have to be ready to pay a price, the only way you can eradicate the military potential of a group such as Hamas is by using the infantry.

True you might hurt them from the air but you can't defeat them, also the more you bomb, the more you kill indiscriminately, the more those groups' message will be accepted, the more those groups will be able to find new recruits and find a raison d'etre.

Right now most of the coward Hamas militants are hiding in well dugged up tunnels while civilians are dying, air strikes can only be effective to a certain extent, Israel was able to kill scores of Hamas personnel in the first few days of the offensive because of the surprise effect.

If you use a lot of airpower you might reduce casualties now, buy you can't eradicate the causes for future conflicts, which means you'll be at the same point in a few months time and you'll have to sacrifice more men.

It's better to go all the way on foot, take some hits but eliminate the problem forever.

Anyway, there was a report by the IDF following the war with Hizbullah, I'm sure you've come across it, I've only read an article on Foreign Affairs about it, so I can't really go into detail, but I'm sure some Israeli generals had to resign when it came out.

Basically it was agreed that on that occasion the military had overrelied on airpower and that the political class believing that higher casualties would have made the war unpopular among the public opinion had failed to meet the campaign's objectives.

Analyst said that in the next proxy war with Iran, Israel should produce more results even if that means suffering higher casualties and that the Israeli people were willing to pay even a high blood price if that meant long term peace and stability.

Let's face it, Israel will never be at peace until both Hizbullah and Hamas are no more, and by bombing from the air you're only helping those organizations grow bigger, as they can draw on an almost unlimited source of potential recruits.

If they want peace, they have to talk to Syria, make some concessions(Golan) and get the Syrians to stop helping those groups, and once they stop receiving funds and weapons, you start an once and for all military offensive.

Oops sorry if that's too long, i'm off to bed.

As for the definition of Palestinian I agree not all of them are Arab, my grandpa told be that back in the thirties in Haifa, they were all getting along pretty well, my family(arab christians) and jews and muslims who had been living on that land for generations, the problems started when fanatical Zionists from Europe started emigrating into the area.

I think the future for that land should be a multi-confessional democratic secular state, where all ethnicities and religious groups can live peacefully with each other, I don't really agree with the two state solution.

Anyway the IDF and the government should definately be held accountable for the gross human rights violations they are guilty of, not having any concern for the loss of civilian life directly caused by your actions goes against the international humanitarian law.

Human Rights Watch, the UN human rights commission, the Red Cross, Amnesty International and even some local Israeli organizations all agree there have been violations of international law.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes

I really think it's about time the world stops judging Israeli actions with double standards, if Milosevic had to stand trial, there's no reason why Olmert shouldn't.

A lot of you have no idea how rockets really are hard to find. The US Army in Iraq has Apaches and Blackhawks constantly in flight around Baghdad to provide Air Support. Now the Army also has hundreds of aerial cameras in the air on blimps tethered to the ground along with them being on top of radio towers. Now combine that with the latest radar systems and of course UAV's and the Army still can't catch the guys launching rockets into the IZ.

Sometimes by luck or by from an informant do they find a launch site that is set to fire. It happens rarely. Most of the time the guys fire and haul ass out of the area and blend in with local crowds in the area. They also fire them from vehicles too, which makes them even more difficult to find. So if one of the worlds most advanced military can't prevent rocket attacks and/or catch the guys firing them, I doubt Israel can.

So all these ideas your saying Israel should try has already been tried, so they can only resort to a good ol' fashion ass whooping. Now whether Israel should exist or not is a whole other forum.

/thread