Will this accomplish anything for Israel? Will it protect them from Hamas rocket attacks? Of course not. I feel that the humanitarian disaster in Gaza will only worsen; leading a plethora of health problems for Gazans and no doubt, even more militancy and motivation for martyrdom. A temporary ceasefire brokered by Egypt seems like the best option available. Your thoughts?

there's nothing that will solve this problem, too ancient. The US and the West needs to step back and allow the israelis to do what is necessary and the UN needs to STFU as well

The basic goal of Israel is to morph the Gaza Strip into a situation akin to that of the West Bank. The West Bank is Palestinian government, but they are effectively powerless. Israel strictly monitors any weapons that go in and out of there, sort of like the ultimate realization of the gun lobby's nightmares. And yet, Israel will occasionally demolish homes and other buildings if it suits their interests.

Will this accomplish anything for Israel? Will it protect them from Hamas rocket attacks? Of course not. -

Actually I saw on the news that Hamas is down to firing about 70 crappy rockets a day. Before the most recent conflict Hamas would fire over 200 of the same missiles. Israel is kicking Palestinian ass.

Also, what is everyone's beef with Israel? It's Hamas who kept attacking Israeli citizens even though there was a ceasefire. Of course Israel was going to have enough of that sooner rather than later. Just because Palestinian missiles are so shit that they almost never hit their target doesn't mean that everyone can crap all over Israel's head now that Palestinian citizens are dying. Collateral damage, it's part of war, and Israel was fully justified in going to war on this one.

The US and the West needs to step back and allow the israelis to do what is necessary

Commit suicide?

Sickening. I read this on BBC earlier.


Thursday's Israeli bombardment was the heaviest so far
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to fulfil its obligation to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

One medical team found 12 bodies in a shelled house, and alongside them four very young children, too weak to stand, waiting by their dead mothers, the ICRC said.
Aid workers had been denied access to the site for days, it added.

"This is a shocking incident," Pierre Wettach, ICRC head for Israel and the Palestinian territories said in a statement.

"The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestinian Red Crescent to assist the wounded."


Fuck Israel.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

When fighting a war against terrorists, the worst way to conduct it is to create many civilian casualties. More indiscriminate casualties leads to hatred directed at you and more support for those fighting against you. The Israeli tactic of using long range high explosives in the crowded residential areas of Gaza guarantees a high civilian casualty rate. The accidental bombing of schools, refugee camps and hospitals achieves one thing: Propaganda for Hamas. Why does a country with one of the best trained, best equipped special forces refuse to use them? If you're seeking to assassinate key figures without civilian casualties surely an elite unit guided by Mossad intelligence is an ideal weapon? Why are the Israelis positively trying to cause as many indiscriminate casualties in a short amount of time, just like they did in the most recent foray into Lebanon? Why are the people of the West Bank and Golan Heights still being punished despite the fact that they have for the most part renounced extremism? The fact is that when the Israelis stop this blitz on Gaza (which they inevitably will, even if it takes as long as the stepping down of George Bush for this to happen), the threat of violence they face from Palestinian terrorists will be greater than when they started this most recent campaign. Suicide bombers had disappeared from the Hamas arsenal for several years, but they will make a return once this is over.

Your absolutely right on the dot dude. I mean look at operation Valkerie during WWII. Of course they never successfully assasinated Hitler but lets face it.....they came very damn near close to the point where if they had succeeded they could have avoided a civil war in Germany. Israel needs to use inside job, under the radar tactics if they want to effectively win this otherwise the blow back is going to get them again and this whole cycle will continue. Most Palestinian people want to live in peace. It's only a small group called the Hamas who want Israel wiped off the face of this Earth. Same with Israel. Most Israelis just want peace. But it's so hard to tell who the bad guys are and who the good guys are when both parties are equally bad and committing the most counterproductive moves to achieve a goal that have been on both sides for a very long time. Of course the U.N could get involved militarily, but that would only worsen the problem. So when it comes down to it there are two approaches to this. Either we help Israel out using covert tactics to oust the Hamas out of power (which is incredibly hard but incredibly effective) or we assist Israel out militarily. We could also blockade the whole section, letting no one in or out, until the conflict is solved which has been suggested on this forum but this is probably more retarded then the current situation, though, because A. I don't know if we could effectively do such a thing and B. bare in mind Israel does have nuclear weapons and the only reason why they haven't used them yet is because they haven't reached that point of desperation but if you blockade the country and starve them out....well desperate times will call for desperate mesasures. And of course that would inevitably effect Iran and other surrounding countries and that could produce a domino effect leading to WWIII. So its pretty much looking like wipe Palestine off or covert mission time.

Violence breeds violence. Expect massive retaliation.

Violence breeds violence. Expect massive retaliation.

Many a rock will be thrown, many a shitty home made rocket launched.
I'm sure the Israeli's are very, very worried.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

When fighting a war against terrorists, the worst way to conduct it is to create many civilian casualties. More indiscriminate casualties leads to hatred directed at you and more support for those fighting against you. The Israeli tactic of using long range high explosives in the crowded residential areas of Gaza guarantees a high civilian casualty rate. The accidental bombing of schools, refugee camps and hospitals achieves one thing: Propaganda for Hamas. Why does a country with one of the best trained, best equipped special forces refuse to use them? If you're seeking to assassinate key figures without civilian casualties surely an elite unit guided by Mossad intelligence is an ideal weapon? Why are the Israelis positively trying to cause as many indiscriminate casualties in a short amount of time, just like they did in the most recent foray into Lebanon? Why are the people of the West Bank and Golan Heights still being punished despite the fact that they have for the most part renounced extremism? The fact is that when the Israelis stop this blitz on Gaza (which they inevitably will, even if it takes as long as the stepping down of George Bush for this to happen), the threat of violence they face from Palestinian terrorists will be greater than when they started this most recent campaign. Suicide bombers had disappeared from the Hamas arsenal for several years, but they will make a return once this is over.

I really don't buy that they're trying to harm civilians, the IDF seems more to just ignore them.

There are a few things that don't add up too.
With the recent school thing for instance, how the fuck is it that people were in a school that mortar's were being fired from?

Sorry, but that's just fucked. You don't accidentally stay around an area where a mortar is being fired, they're fucking loud.

While it's clear that Israel is willing to inflict civilian casualties for military purposes, it's very clear that Hamas is putting civilians in harms way - they're more useful dead than alive after all.

With this sort of asymmetric warfare distinguishing between civilians and enemy combatants is largely impossible anyway.
Where the civilians give material support and act as human shields for the enemy, is there really a distinction from a military point of view? In truth there never really has been - bombing of Dresden anyone? It's a modern myth that there can really be some clear distinction and a 'clean' war. The whole point of war is that it isn't 'clean' - you're using force to fuck over the other guys for goodness sake.

To me, and feel free to flame away, it appears that the IDF is pursuing military goals and is entirely willing to 'go through' civilians to do so.

Frankly I'm not trying to justify either sides actions anyway, just stating how it apppears.

it's just the same old
"Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing Jews killing Arabs killing ...." (trolls trolling trolls)
anyway

But I can't help but see some things wrong with how things appear on the surface with incidents like the school one.

I really don't buy that they're trying to harm civilians, the IDF seems more to just ignore them.

There are a few things that don't add up too.
With the recent school thing for instance, how the fuck is it that people were in a school that mortar's were being fired from?

Sorry, but that's just fucked. You don't accidentally stay around an area where a mortar is being fired, they're fucking loud.

While it's clear that Israel is willing to inflict civilian casualties for military purposes, it's very clear that Hamas is putting civilians in harms way - they're more useful dead than alive after all.

With this sort of asymmetric warfare distinguishing between civilians and enemy combatants is largely impossible anyway.
Where the civilians give material support and act as human shields for the enemy, is there really a distinction from a military point of view? In truth there never really has been - bombing of Dresden anyone? It's a modern myth that there can really be some clear distinction and a 'clean' war. The whole point of war is that it isn't 'clean' - you're using force to fuck over the other guys for goodness sake.

To me, and feel free to flame away, it appears that the IDF is pursuing military goals and is entirely willing to 'go through' civilians to do so.

The point I was making is that the very premise of a "war" is counterproductive to the Israeli cause. The points you have made are not only self-evident but from the Israeli position indelible, and as such need to be factored into any strategy for getting rid of Hamas. Tactics which guarantee high civilian casualties will perpetuate extremism in Palestine, whether the callous actions of Hamas contribute to the civilian body count or not. Nothing that you have said has countered the pith of my post.

The Israeli government is attempting to arrive at a destination that Route-IDF doesn't lead to.

The point I was making is that the very premise of a "war" is counterproductive to the Israeli cause. The points you have made are not only self-evident but from the Israeli position indelible, and as such need to be factored into any strategy for getting rid of Hamas. Tactics which guarantee high civilian casualties will perpetuate extremism in Palestine, whether the callous actions of Hamas contribute to the civilian body count or not. Nothing that you have said has countered the pith of my post.

The Israeli government is attempting to arrive at a destination that Route-IDF doesn't lead to.

Are you sure?
Perhaps extremism and violence in the Palestinian territories serves their interests?
It's entirely possible for instance that Ariel Sharon very much expected Hamas to take over following the Gaza pullout and helping a Palestinian civil war come about was the entire point.

In the end even a two state solution means end the of Israel at some point in the future due to Israeli Arab birthrates. It'd be silly to try and glean and agenda out of that information, but the long term goals of any given Israeli government probably aren't so clear as they might initially appear to be.

Are you sure?
Perhaps extremism and violence in the Palestinian territories serves their interests?
It's entirely possible for instance that Ariel Sharon very much expected Hamas to take over following the Gaza pullout and helping a Palestinian civil war come about was the entire point.

In the end even a two state solution means end the of Israel at some point in the future due to Israeli Arab birthrates. It'd be silly to try and glean and agenda out of that information, but the long term goals of any given Israeli government probably aren't so clear as they might initially appear to be.

Now we're talking. I made a speculative thread on something very much like this a while ago, but that was at a time when the Jew-mods were more active so I decided to save us all the nuisance and put it in Conspiracy myself. Am I to assume that we agree that if a secure Israel within a peaceful two state solution were the genuine goal held by the Israeli government then the recent Blitz in Gaza would be counterproductive to it? In the mean time I'm going to dig out some of my wild speculations and attempt to dress them up as legitimate predictions.

Now we're talking. I made a speculative thread on something very much like this a while ago, but that was at a time when the Jew-mods were more active so I decided to save us all the nuisance and put it in Conspiracy myself. Am I to assume that we agree that if a secure Israel within a peaceful two state solution were the genuine goal held by the Israeli government then the recent Blitz in Gaza would be counterproductive to it? In the mean time I'm going to dig out some of my wild speculations and attempt to dress them up as legitimate predictions.

I agree as far as that there's no way their goal is a 'two state solution and a peaceful Israel'.
However that doesn't mean I, or the Israeli's, accept that a two state solution and a peaceful Israel is actually a genuine possibility even if they do work for it.

Actually I saw on the news that Hamas is down to firing about 70 crappy rockets a day. Before the most recent conflict Hamas would fire over 200 of the same missiles. Israel is kicking Palestinian ass.

Also, what is everyone's beef with Israel? It's Hamas who kept attacking Israeli citizens even though there was a ceasefire. Of course Israel was going to have enough of that sooner rather than later. Just because Palestinian missiles are so shit that they almost never hit their target doesn't mean that everyone can crap all over Israel's head now that Palestinian citizens are dying. Collateral damage, it's part of war, and Israel was fully justified in going to war on this one.

http://www.google.com/search?q=jews+protest+zionist+war&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I agree as far as that there's no way their goal is a 'two state solution and a peaceful Israel'.
However that doesn't mean I, or the Israeli's, accept that a two state solution and a peaceful Israel is actually a genuine possibility even if they do work for it.

Whilst Western governments are in bed with the Israeli government I'd be inclined to agree with you. That's why I see this conflict as an absolute issue - either you pro-actively oppose Israel and pro-actively support peaceful movements within Palestine or you don't. To do nothing is to give your passive support your government's silence on the issue and to Israel.

Also, what is everyone's beef with Israel? It's Hamas who kept attacking Israeli citizens even though there was a ceasefire.

From what I understand, it's Israel that broke the ceasefire, causing the usual crap from Hamas. But why care when they can easily blame Hamas and people will blindly accept it? Honestly, it reeks of premeditation.

See the problem is that Israel is there and they shouldn't be, it is not there land, for gods sake Israel is like what 68 years old something like that. The only reason they got there own land was because the UN and white flag, didn't want them to get exterminated again. If Israel does continue I promise you that they will probably get nuked or completely wiped out. Cause if America goes and helps them they will still lose America's army is one of the worst around so there easy to deal with they have no discipline or moral strength. Look at Vietnam all the American soldiers were scared fucking shit balls and went nuts cause Americans are pussies there not warriors. They never will be the middle east on the other hand are born warriors they have been for thousands of years so there really is no stopping it. I think they should just let the jews get wiped out Problem solved.

See the problem is that Israel is there and they shouldn't be, it is not there land, for gods sake Israel is like what 68 years old something like that.

Simplified version of the story, and not the whole truth. In case you've forgotten, there WERE Palestinian Jews. In fact, there was even land allocated to them, under the Palestnian Mandate. However, the same holds true for the rest of the Palestinians.

It's also important to note that Israel, despite the whole "Jewish State" moniker, isn't strictly Jewish.

See the problem is that Israel is there and they shouldn't be, it is not there land, for gods sake Israel is like what 68 years old something like that. The only reason they got there own land was because the UN and white flag, didn't want them to get exterminated again. If Israel does continue I promise you that they will probably get nuked or completely wiped out. Cause if America goes and helps them they will still lose America's army is one of the worst around so there easy to deal with they have no discipline or moral strength. Look at Vietnam all the American soldiers were scared fucking shit balls and went nuts cause Americans are pussies there not warriors. They never will be the middle east on the other hand are born warriors they have been for thousands of years so there really is no stopping it. I think they should just let the jews get wiped out Problem solved.

I was going to flame you in more detail about how the US lost Vietnam on the domestic front but then I re-red your post and got a headache.
This'll have to do.
I mean seriously, for all the fuss and all the coverage as a whole the North Vietnamese sucked hard and were dying by the hundreds of thousands.
The Tet offensive for example was a fucking disaster militarily but ended up being quite useful because of how the story was played in the west. The viet-cong stretched their forces out and they were systematically wiped out in the case of tet.
Some would say that this is part of war, the hearts and minds, public opinion, ect, but you were actually dumb enough to try and argue that America failed militarily -that America lost because it's soldiers were scared and 'shit balls'.

There's so much more wrong with your post... on the creation of Israel (UN? what about you know... the fucking Poms? or 1948 Arab-Israeli war?) and other shit.
I mean really... Wiped out? like every other time the Arabs have tried to do that?
Actually I guess the Yom Kippur war doesn't really count since after 1967 they were just trying to get back the land they lost in THAT spectacular defeat.

From what I understand, it's Israel that broke the ceasefire, causing the usual crap from Hamas.

How so? Hamas kept firing rockets during the ceasefire, so Israel retaliates. Simple. How did Israel break the ceasefire?

I think its important to note that most of what we are hearing about the situation in Gaza is being reported by Israeli reporters or military/gov't officials. Everyone is talking about the conflict like they know what is going on, but I'm sure what we are hearing is a small part of what is happening, and most likely a very twisted version of events.

There are some exceptions of course but I think its pointless and quite ignorant to make any speculation as to what will happen or even what has happened.

These people have been killing each other for generations and won't stop doing so any time in the future, especially with all the money that is being made by those who are arming the israeli forces.

How so? Hamas kept firing rockets during the ceasefire, so Israel retaliates. Simple. How did Israel break the ceasefire?

Has it occurred to you to ask -why- they were firing the rockets, or do you just buy into the "omg they're all mindless jew haters" garbage the Israel spills?

The reason they started firing those rockets was because Israel took part in a raid that killed six Palestinian gunmen. Israel's excuse was that they had some intel saying that the Palestinian gunmen were going to do something with some tunnel. That's breaking the truce.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

I think its important to note that most of what we are hearing about the situation in Gaza is being reported by Israeli reporters or military/gov't officials.


No it isn't.
A substantial proportion of what comes out comes from the local stringers that the news-wires employ. This goes doubly so for photos.
Do you seriously think AP and Reuters(for instance) have actual on the books, full time employees in every city and town in the world just in case something happens?

You may not have noticed, but there was a major fuss over doctored and staged photos during the 2006 war in Lebanon (including one idiotic case where they'd used photoshop's clone tool to 'thicken' smoke over Beirut in a way that was so obvious a three year old would have noticed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict_photographs_controversies
and in particular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Hajj_photographs_controversy

Yes, that obvious fake was actually published.

In this case they'll have Palestinian stringers covering this war. Do you seriously think that when Israeli bombs hit schools that there just happens to be Israeli photographers right nearby to get those 'money shots'? ...That's why they employ locals duh.

Sickening. I read this on BBC earlier.


Thursday's Israeli bombardment was the heaviest so far
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to fulfil its obligation to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

One medical team found 12 bodies in a shelled house, and alongside them four very young children, too weak to stand, waiting by their dead mothers, the ICRC said.
Aid workers had been denied access to the site for days, it added.

"This is a shocking incident," Pierre Wettach, ICRC head for Israel and the Palestinian territories said in a statement.

"The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestinian Red Crescent to assist the wounded."


Fuck Israel.

They litter the land with leaflets telling the Paltestinians to GTFO because they are going to bomb their shit, even though the borders are closed. But you say that Israeli caring nothing about giving medical help to some Palestinian children surprises you?

About the only thing that the Jews could do that would surprise me is if they gassed the entire Strip with VX.

^^ Yeah, i read about that one.

Hamas isn't really bombing indiscriminately per se. They said they're pretty much trying to kill all the jews and Israel is full of them amirite?

Seriously though, I think you have to be of jewish heritage to be an Israeli citizen.

Apparently Lebanon is getting into it as well.

^^ Yeah, i read about that one.

Hamas isn't really bombing indiscriminately per se. They said they're pretty much trying to kill all the jews and Israel is full of them amirite?

Seriously though, I think you have to be of jewish heritage to be an Israeli citizen.

Apparently Lebanon is getting into it as well. But who exactly is it? It can't be the armed forces, they're mostly christian.

The biggest problem I see with Israeli (and US) occupation of civilian areas is that neither nation knows whether to be a "bad guy" or a "nice guy". I think that when a power occupies an area, it must be one or the other. If nice, then that means no collateral damage, winning hearts and minds, etc. If cruelty is to be employed at all, it must be to the fullest possible extent, completely destroying all will to resist. Think SS on the eastern front.

Israel does not take a stand either way, instead acting in whatever way it pleases without taking enough account of the long term.

^^ Yeah, i read about that one.

Hamas isn't really bombing indiscriminately per se. They said they're pretty much trying to kill all the jews and Israel is full of them amirite?

Seriously though, I think you have to be of jewish heritage to be an Israeli citizen.

Apparently Lebanon is getting into it as well. But who exactly is it? It can't be the armed forces, they're mostly christian.

You're a fucking idiot.
'you think' you have to be of jewish heritage to be an Israeli citizen?

What about the 16% of Israeli's who are Muslims? (I'm not talking about Palestinians here).
In total about a fifth of the Israeli population are arab, most of whom are Muslim, but with a minority of Christians and Druze as well. While it's possible for Jews to claim right of return in order to obtain Israeli citizenship there are certainly other ways to obtain citizenship (naturalization and the like).

You're a fucking idiot.
'you think' you have to be of jewish heritage to be an Israeli citizen?

What about the 16% of Israeli's who are Muslims? (I'm not talking about Palestinians here).
In total about a fifth of the Israeli population are arab, most of whom are Muslim, but with a minority of Christians and Druze as well. While it's possible for Jews to claim right of return in order to obtain Israeli citizenship there are certainly other ways to obtain citizenship (naturalization and the like).

Looks like i'm completely wrong. My brother was stoned when he told me :(