quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Whats the use in calling an imaginary mental image God? It can neither harm you nor benefit you, but the understanding of the original Truth, that There is Reality, and it is the only thing worthy of being called God does have its benefits in understanding, furthermore, submission to it is simply finding peace with it. I shouldn't be the only enlightened one, others have been before me, and you could be too.





People who believe in God don't believe he is imaginary. Also, everyword is 'imaginary'- they are just information. The word 'the' is imaginary because it is a concept. I don't really know why you would say that. Should we not use the name "Santa Claus"? If God is imaginary then it can neither harm nor hurt you, but that's not what we're discussing, is it. And ironically, you said it neither harms nor hurts us to call an 'imaginary mental being' God, but then why is it any different to call reality God? It's pointless and meaningless. Yes, reality exists. Let's leave it at that.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

all I ask is that you are willing to intelligently search for truth with me.

Meditation is the truth.

</topic>

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 06-25-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I swear I won't condemn everyone on this forum to hell or thump you with the Bible. I just am interested in discussion. I realize that I'm completely outnumbered- all I ask is that you are willing to intelligently search for truth with me. Isn't that the purpose of a debate anyways? I'm afraid this will come off incredibly pretentious and I'm sorry if it does. I suppose I just wanted to introduce myself to totse, and pray to GOD that I don't drown.

My opening topic for discussion is how Christianity affronts you. What has my faith done that would create so much animosity? I’m not completely ignorant to the churches falsehood and error. I just ask that you don’t judge a faith by the religion established around it. I promise that I will do the same to not judge your own beliefs.

-Lauren

Are you capable of being intellectually honest with yourself? If you are provided with sound logical reasoning which contradicts your beliefs, can you accept such? Or would you deny the logic/evidence and hold to your beliefs, even if they are logically impossible?

Are you able to handle the truth, whatever it may be?

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

Meditation is the truth.

Nonsense. Validate that statement.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Nonsense. Validate that statement.

ahahah. "validate" is a request for more mental masturbation. Stop kidding yourself, the mind can argue and theorize, "validate", conclude, ignore and go up down, left right, black white...What is there to validate when the mind completely stops? Nothing, until you think of another question and start letting your mind think uncontrollably again. Dont you see how it works, do you study your own mind or everyone's opinion on christianity and how they can seemingly keep coming up with something else to dissect.

Your whole "building an argument" involves words upon words from which you've already learned, in a SYSTEM of language that others have learned as well, this is LIMITED, limited thinking. Can't you see that, at ALL?

Don't you know there are things BEYOND mind? Are you AFRAID maybe of going "there" where all the "weird" stuff like OBEs and "psychic" abilities keep being reported, day after day after day? Where loving religious people murdered these people, and they STILL hold the same attitude to this day. When you go to work at shitty jobs and you think everything is safe and secure, people are still fucking vicious animals ready to gang up and kill whatever for whatever reason because of lack of understanding.

You're arguing inside of a small box and you look up at the sky at how far the universe extends, and for years the human mind has been trying to put it into this small box that it can AGREE with, not understand, not observe directly, not know, not experience, but just find a COMFORTABLE explanation that others, maybe MILLIONS of others might agree with as well, for COMFORT, because of MISUNDERSTANDING. Because of FEAR. You need to look another way I think.

Meditation, the no mind state, where all thoughts have ceased and there is only awareness, is TIMELESS and not BOUND by anything, to any teaching, to any language. To experience this state is to feel eternity, timelessness, is to taste a sip of what Buddha drank his whole life. Have you sipped this? Jesus even. "The first and last christian died on the cross"

Nonsense.... right. Maybe you haven't seen what I've seen and I'm trying to point you a direction. Nonsense? Fine, live in your box christian boy. I'm not here to be an atheist, because atheists are just as ridiculous as christians, 2 sides to the same stupid coin. Go BEYOND the coin. But once you go beyond too far there's no turning back, that's for sure. Just one real deep experience can turn you away from all the bullshit theories forever, and turn you to yourself, where the real truth lies. It can leave you for the rest of your life speechless, knowing just how far your words can go, until they stop again.

I don't need to validate shit, rather it's you who needs to validate that to yourself in the end. What "truth" are you looking for? How the universe was created? So you're going to study these documents from long ago to the fucking INK MOLECULES on the paper until you can't think anymore. Will that give you bliss, and freedom or will you just want to "know more truth" after that? The truth is mind is the obstacle to truth. When you've reached the end of thought I hope you remember my post. till then, keep mentally masturbating. I think you're wasting time. This post is probably wasting my time as well, but what is time anyways. Sun appears, moon goes away, but really they're both there the whole time and they have been for time unknown.

Hey here's a thought. Maybe none of this ever began or will ever end. Maybe that's the truth. 8-O



[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 06-25-2006).]

Dear Fuck,

Interesting name by the way, just wondering, why does thought have to end to be free? And what is just awareness? If you are concious or aware then there is thought. It is what makes you human. Besides if you let go of everything what about everyone else? Those people suffering and dieing? Is that just a figment of our imagination? This whole "Truth is in yourself thing" is quite selfish if you ask me. You look to yourself, shut off the outside world and try to find bliss. Yes maybe RELIGION has killed off many people, but is that the belief or is that the people taking the belief too far. Never in Gods word does it say that you should hurt and harm your neighbor in order to further Christianity. But again, if you only look at yourself you benefit no one, and just because you dont think of something does not mean it isnt there, if i free my mind and jump off a building gravity will still plumit me to the earth. There are absolute truths in this world. You can choose to shut your eyes and say you do not think or are free from it, or you can open them and find ways to help.

Christianity is quite selfish, if you ask me. Any religion that puts the importance of this life into another life is NIHILISM.

How does christianity put the importance of this life into the next? We care about the present. The true Church, that spiritual Church that is unseen, is here to show the love of Christ to those who have not yet known it. Our works here on earth are like filthy rags to Christ. It is our duty to love. Not to work for greater gains in heaven.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

How does christianity put the importance of this life into the next? We care about the present. The true Church, that spiritual Church that is unseen, is here to show the love of Christ to those who have not yet known it. Our works here on earth are like filthy rags to Christ. It is our duty to love. Not to work for greater gains in heaven.

Dirty rags to Christ?

To Theophany and All Christians: Please Read the Following with an Open Mind, Do not Close your eyes or ears or mind or heart to this, this is for your life, be wise.

Christianity promotes OPEN Blasphemy against the Sublime and Supreme nature of the One God. They say God came to Earth as a Man, God is in the image of Man, God had a Begotten Son who is Him, God is 3 in 1, God was a baby, God had a Mother, God died, The blood of Jesus forgives the sins of all people, etc.

Firstly, God is One, One whole, Essentially God is all there is and ever was, God is here there and everywhere within without you are dependant on it.

Secondly, God is not a man, nor is God in the image of Man, Men are not the Children of God, God does not have Children, Men are Men, they are part of God, existing within God and only By God.

Thirdly, Jesus is not a God, Jesus was in the image of a man because he was a man, I do not believe Jesus ever claimed to be God or the son of God despite what the New Testament invents about him. Jesus was a man, born as a baby, grew into age, he was a part of God as much as a tree or a grain of sand, he was no more than a human, he brought the people a message, the message was ignored as it is now.

Fourthly, Blood does not forgive sins, nor does someone ELSE dying, the Jewish tradition of Scapegoat does not apply, it was the tradition to kill a lamb or goat and forgive the sins of a village, Jesus is called the Lamb of God for this reason, to say that the death of something can forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness is a blasphemy, Jesus is not a Savior, No man can save another man, we can only save ourselves, we are our own saviors, it is up to us to communicate with the Supreme God and ask for forgiveness, there are no intermediaries, Jesus Jonas Jack and Jill can not forgive you, not by dying, not by living, not by anything, they have no power, to God is all the power.

Christians would be wise to CEASE and DESIST in the promotion of BLASPHEMY against the ONE GOD by inventing LIES about the NATURE of GOD and REALITY.

Science should have no conflict with the True God, The True God is where all things inside and out of this universe came from.

Do not be Stubborn, You are wise enough to understand that there is a God, you should be wise enough to accept the true nature of God and not to BLASPHEMY repeatedly about the SUPREME AND ULTIMATE Nature of God.

Their arguments are to make you lose God, Do not Lose God, God is not what you have been imagining or inventing in your imagination, nor is God a man or a woman or a thing created, God is infront of you at all times, open your eyes and see, you are living God, existing because of God, and it is to God you return. There is no Escape, Jesus is nothing but a man and a servant of God, one who submitted himself and accepted the Truth, he made no claims to divinity, he was not a Blasphemer, Cease and Desist.

They can break your idols, so break your idols for them, God is not an Idol, nor does God have an image, but all images are within God.

You are not the Children of God, you are the Creation of God, God in all majesty and wonder manifested you, and developed you slowly, and this earth, and evolved you, Do you not see the intricacy and beauty, will you not submit to the Reality of which you are completely dependant?

God is the originator of all things, Do not say that God did not Create some things, God manifested all things, existing and non existing, seen and unseen, known and unknown, there is NO creator but God, all men can do is manipulate what they have available, invent what is possible, the possibilities provided and manifested by God.

Drop the Blasphemous Book, the New Testament, Which Invents lie after lie about God and Jesus. You do not lose God by dropping a book full of blasphemy, Go on a journey to find the truth, or come to me and I will show you the truth, abrahimesker@hotmail.com on MSN, abrahim_esker@yahoo.com, abrahimesker on AIM.

There is one Religion and there has always been one Religion, with One God, and man repeatedly mutates it into something new, go to the root and it is one truth.

For the sake of your own being, and for your own benefit in this life and the next, cease and desist in uttering blasphemy about God with little knowledge and understanding, you are only harming yourself by promoting blasphemy, God is far beyond what many invent, but God should not be beyond understanding, God is apparent for those who choose to see, and that is a minority.

There is no Being in the Sky that is Worthy of Worship, the only worthy of Submission is the One God, Not some man in an alternate dimension but the Ultimate Reality which holds your very existance and the existance of all things with all might. All Power Belongs to God. God is not 3, God is One, Nor does God have 3 parts, If you will make divisions, then Divide God for all God's innumerable aspects, and All that is within God. God is One, Reality is One, All is One, Submit.

I am not a promoter of an Evil Word, I am not a servant of blasphemy, I wish for you to Cease and Desist in Blasphemy, if you have even a fraction of good and sense in you, you will see what I am saying as the truth. I am not Satan or the Enemy of God or Jesus. I am the enemy of Blasphemy.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Nonsense. Validate that statement.

The Melting Pot seems to be calling the kettle black when it boils over.

How hypocritical of you.

How can you possibly call yourself correct on the grounds you cannot justify a single claim of your religion. You have not responded to one question without avoiding the very question you claim to be responding to.



I agree meditation is truth. Try it.

EDIT: Abraham (sp?) you get crazier every time you talk, if anyone looks at your posts throughout your history here, you go through weird phases, each post being more irrelevant then the last.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 06-26-2006).]

Dear Fuck, I have to say that your lengthy comment there was one of the most intelligent, thought provoking and well written responses I have seen on TOTSE in a long time. I salute you.

What the hell...

Okay. Let's get a few things straight.

Who the fuck do you think you are, Abraham? Truth is fact. Religion and faith in of themselves are questionable in nature!

Enemy of blasphemy, eh? Which religion?

Nothing is wrong with mediation, Lauren. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) As for mediation being truth, anything that helps you to think is good.

Stop thinking so much. Religion--ANY religion-- is full of fallacies and wrongdoings. Just respect people, worship your diety, and let it go. We're never going to agree, but we can agree to disagree.

Well fuck, (the person) (I mean, don't fuck the person, I'm talking to fuck, the person) you have some interesting points there. You seem a little overkill with this whole truth quest, but I do like your ideas. Although, I have to ask, if you aren't atheist or theist, what the hell are you?

Fuckamentally he is an athiest, as he does not believe in the lord. However I do believe he worships in his own particular way and so he believes, in essence of someone or some way. Athiesm is about the particular non-belief in 'god'.

quote:Originally posted by Ravendust:

Fuckamentally he is an athiest, as he does not believe in the lord. However I do believe he worships in his own particular way and so he believes, in essence of someone or some way. Athiesm is about the particular non-belief in 'god'.

I believe in "super-natural" occurances, because I've experianced them. I wouldn't consider it a religion, as fuck said, it's just something we don't understand. On the otherhand I don't see anything wrong with learning as much as possible and seeing different view points. I don't argue the existance of a god, I argue against the creationist theory being scientific or not, and no it is not. The truth is there are certain things we don't know, and cannot verify so argueing about them is useless. Never has it stopped anyone in the past, isn't now, and never will in the future, so although it's been fun debating creationists, I think I'm done with the religous forum here on totse.

Argueing for or against god is just as pointless as Abrahim argueing that we should all worship reality because it is real to our sences. Theres no way to know things beyond our sences without actually going beyond our sences, sences which are unreliable to begin with. Also I like what Fuck said when qouting jesus "The first and last christian died on the cross" No matter how rightous christians try to be they are no jesus, and no less guilty than anyone else.

I have never shunned meditation, since I have found it to be a constructive part of my life. I encourage all who are willing to experiance as many different forms of concousness as you can, life's too short to spend on "one channel".

I don't know if people where killed because they had Out of Body Experiances but it wouldn't surprise me. People who experianced other forms of concousness where some of the countless prosecuted by that religion. Anything misunderstood was considered witch craft. Thats people for you. You can't change the past but you can try to stop it from happining again.

Most people will go to any lengths from thinking and even more people will do anything to stop themselves from experiancing something, thats why alot of people consider it horrible for other people to experiance anything out of the norm. If they can take away the thing that caused this experiance they will, at the present most substances that cause other forms of concousness are illegal, and people who experiance other forms of concousness without substances (such as psychic abilities) is ridiculed and shunned. Only recently have people begun to accept remote viewing even though the US employed people in the 70s to remote view. The project was cancelled after the public found out due to the publics opinion, not due to it's effectiveness. Hundreds of years ago these people would have been tortured and burned. Now we try to lock them up, wether in prison or in mental institutions. This sorry state is the way we live today. Maybe in 1000 more years, if humans are still alive, maybe people won't fear each other, themselves, and the void around them.

Well I'm rambling now but if anyone read that hopefully you will see where I'm coming from, and Fuck is right, there is no point mentally masterbating, and argueing about things we really know very little, if anything at all about.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

To Theophany and All Christians: Please

Christians would be wise to CEASE and DESIST in the promotion of BLASPHEMY against the ONE GOD by inventing LIES about the NATURE of GOD and REALITY.



Or what? Please tell us why it would be wise to desist, is it because you have read this: "Lord, those whom you will cast into the fire You will put to eternal shame ... (Koran - The Imrans 3:192)

"For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, evil their resting place." (Koran - The Cave 18:27)

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.

Whenever in their anguish they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagaration!'" (Koran - Pilgramage 22:19)

What part of reality is this? Is this the reality you espouse, a god so dastardly that he would condemn to eternal suffering those not able to believe in him? Where is this hell? Is it in this reality? No! You seem prepared to accept the Koran as part of reality and in so doing you support nonsense. This is a depraved view of god, no just human judge would condemn an offender to such punishment, how could you attribute the creation and administration of such an evil place to a good god? Is this not blasphemy?

Reality is that life is a mystery, there are some 70 billion galaxies in the observable universe. Our galaxy has 400 billion stars. That's reality, point me towards the one who has full knowledge of that reality.

Science now hypothesises that all things are made of light. In our reality light appears as one until split thru a prism then we see seven colours, however only three are the primary colours. From these three colurs all things are made. In the NT it says "God is Light" If the light of our 'reality' is three, why is it blasphemy to believe god is three?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Or what? Please tell us why it would be wise to desist

Exactly. Calling reality god is meaningless. What exactly will reality do to us if we don't believe it is God? And, if I believe reality is reality, then do I believe in your God? I mean, your God is reality, so do all who believe in reality, believe in your god?

By the way, fascinating post redzed. It's a shame you won't get a non-bullshit response, abrahim is either a troll or an idiot. Either way, nicely done.

An interesting post Abrahim, it shines some light on what you yourself believe, which I have often wondered. As for the New Testament being a book of blasphemy ... How? What evidence do you have against it? I know it is not the thousands of manuscripts we have ranging from the earliest new testament in 200s AD to the later time periods of the 300 to 500. I refuse to accept that humans are a part of God, for humans are flawed. We lie, cheat murder and steal. We are decietful and narcisistic. Those do not seem like traits of God to me. I am not saying that i am not guilty of these either. Also, your claims that Jesus never said that He was the Supreme deity are somewhat correct. He never came out and said ... "I am God" But he did indeed say "I AM" and there was also the dear doubting Thomas who exclaimed, "My Lord and My God!" Now if he was not God, then he would have rebuked Thomas as He rebuked Peter saying "Get away from me satan" Instead He accepts the address. Paul later says that He was given the name above all names. That every knee should bow. So yes Jesus was God in the New testament if you take his claims and those who claimed him to be. The Children of God is actually better then being God, God(Father Son and Holy Spirit) has a close and intimate relationship with us, and gives us unique characters. He provides us with true individuality. With your theory we are all the same anyways because God is everything and so on and so forth. We were all made for a purpose and we do indeed all have a divine plan. God made each and every person unique. The 3 in 1 thing ... that is mysterious in and of itself. But yes God is one and has three distinct persons, yet still is one. This of course coming from the Bible which I believe to be true. Please write back.

Your Friend

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

An interesting post Abrahim, it shines some light on what you yourself believe, which I have often wondered. As for the New Testament being a book of blasphemy ... How? What evidence do you have against it? I know it is not the thousands of manuscripts we have ranging from the earliest new testament in 200s AD to the later time periods of the 300 to 500. I refuse to accept that humans are a part of God, for humans are flawed. We lie, cheat murder and steal. We are decietful and narcisistic. Those do not seem like traits of God to me. I am not saying that i am not guilty of these either. Also, your claims that Jesus never said that He was the Supreme deity are somewhat correct. He never came out and said ... "I am God" But he did indeed say "I AM" and there was also the dear doubting Thomas who exclaimed, "My Lord and My God!" Now if he was not God, then he would have rebuked Thomas as He rebuked Peter saying "Get away from me satan" Instead He accepts the address. Paul later says that He was given the name above all names. That every knee should bow. So yes Jesus was God in the New testament if you take his claims and those who claimed him to be. The Children of God is actually better then being God, God(Father Son and Holy Spirit) has a close and intimate relationship with us, and gives us unique characters. He provides us with true individuality. With your theory we are all the same anyways because God is everything and so on and so forth. We were all made for a purpose and we do indeed all have a divine plan. God made each and every person unique. The 3 in 1 thing ... that is mysterious in and of itself. But yes God is one and has three distinct persons, yet still is one. This of course coming from the Bible which I believe to be true. Please write back.

Your Friend

In my post I hopefully explained some of the reasons why I view it as a blasphemy against God, to say that God has 3 distinct persons, that God was born on Earth as a man, etc etc. With my theory, we are not the same as God, nor are we God, but a part of God, made of God, existing within God, because of God, completely dependant. Are you the whole of it? You are only something within it, you are not the whole, nor is everything past present and future encompassed within You.

Do you believe God created everything?

Do you believe some things are flawed?

Do you believe God is capable of creating things that are flawed?

God is Perfect, God only produces perfection, my definition of Perfection is not an Opinion about good or bad, I believe God manifested everything, what is good for us and bad for us, but that the system we exist within is without flaws, that nothing about it is flawed, that if even one minute part of it was flawed nothing would work.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Or what? Please tell us why it would be wise to desist, is it because you have read this: "Lord, those whom you will cast into the fire You will put to eternal shame ... (Koran - The Imrans 3:192)

"For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, evil their resting place." (Koran - The Cave 18:27)

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.

Whenever in their anguish they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagaration!'" (Koran - Pilgramage 22:19)

What part of reality is this? Is this the reality you espouse, a god so dastardly that he would condemn to eternal suffering those not able to believe in him? Where is this hell? Is it in this reality? No! You seem prepared to accept the Koran as part of reality and in so doing you support nonsense. This is a depraved view of god, no just human judge would condemn an offender to such punishment, how could you attribute the creation and administration of such an evil place to a good god? Is this not blasphemy?

Reality is that life is a mystery, there are some 70 billion galaxies in the observable universe. Our galaxy has 400 billion stars. That's reality, point me towards the one who has full knowledge of that reality.

Science now hypothesises that all things are made of light. In our reality light appears as one until split thru a prism then we see seven colours, however only three are the primary colours. From these three colurs all things are made. In the NT it says "God is Light" If the light of our 'reality' is three, why is it blasphemy to believe god is three?

In the case of reflective reward, let us hope hell doesn't exist at any time or any place. For both our sakes.

Why is it a blasphemy to believe God is three? Because God is essentially one, and within God, there is the infinite, not 2, not 3, 4, 4 zillion, 7 bazgillionvillion, infinite, 1 is the best number to describe it, 3 is innacurate, God is so much more than 3 if one is going to divide the unity of it all then divide it, the numbers will never end.

083.010

Woe, that Day, to those that deny-

083.011

Those that deny the Day of Judgment.

083.012

And none gives the lie to it but every exceeder of limits, sinful one

083.013

When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!"

083.014

By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the which they do!

083.015

Verily, from their Lord, that Day, will they be veiled.

083.016

Further, they will enter the Fire of Hell.

083.017

And it will be said:

This is that which you used to deny.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Why is it a blasphemy to believe God is three? Because God is essentially one, and within God, there is the infinite, not 2, not 3, 4, 4 zillion, 7 bazgillionvillion, infinite, 1 is the best number to describe it, 3 is innacurate, God is so much more than 3 if one is going to divide the unity of it all then divide it, the numbers will never end.



Perhaps you are a troll? You have dodged the question, ignored the evidence of reality, and then introduced more nonsense. Quoting verses from a book that claims to be god-breathed, but makes claims that are not able to be verified in 'reality', seems simply a case of denial. It seems you are so dogmatically attached to the Koran that you cannot see it's obvious flaws. Do you really believe a just, loving merciful god would create an evil place such as hell, and stock it with 'angels' who will also spend eternity dragging people to various forms of torture? What 'reality' is that?

The divine may well be one singularity seemingly divided into a myriad of different forms, how is one to now? We could look at the natural and extrapolate? For example humans are supposedly made in the image of god, 'one' human could be spoken of as body, mind, and awareness. One person yet with three distinct attributes. "As below so above"? The reality you speak of can also be classified in a similar way. The universe/cosmos/god/reality is composed of energy, matter, and awareness. That is, the vastness of the 70 billion galaxies we are able to observe is but 5% of the universe. The majority is what science calls dark energy(80%), about 15% is dark matter, and the remainder is the material universe we are familiar with. We have energy, matter and the awareness to realise it, one being with three aspects.

Where do you get your total criticism of the bible when the Koran specifically mentions the gospels and the writings of Moses as being sacred?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Fuck is right, there is no point mentally masterbating,

But I like mental masturbation =(

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Perhaps you are a troll? You have dodged the question, ignored the evidence of reality, and then introduced more nonsense. Quoting verses from a book that claims to be god-breathed, but makes claims that are not able to be verified in 'reality', seems simply a case of denial. It seems you are so dogmatically attached to the Koran that you cannot see it's obvious flaws. Do you really believe a just, loving merciful god would create an evil place such as hell, and stock it with 'angels' who will also spend eternity dragging people to various forms of torture? What 'reality' is that?

The divine may well be one singularity seemingly divided into a myriad of different forms, how is one to now? We could look at the natural and extrapolate? For example humans are supposedly made in the image of god, 'one' human could be spoken of as body, mind, and awareness. One person yet with three distinct attributes. "As below so above"? The reality you speak of can also be classified in a similar way. The universe/cosmos/god/reality is composed of energy, matter, and awareness. That is, the vastness of the 70 billion galaxies we are able to observe is but 5% of the universe. The majority is what science calls dark energy(80%), about 15% is dark matter, and the remainder is the material universe we are familiar with. We have energy, matter and the awareness to realise it, one being with three aspects.

Where do you get your total criticism of the bible when the Koran specifically mentions the gospels and the writings of Moses as being sacred?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

The Qur'an says that Jesus brought a book called the Injeel, this is NOT the Gospels, nor is it the New Testament, it is a book that no longer exists. The Gospels are a bunch of stories written ABOUT Jesus, not BY Jesus.

The Qur'an says that Musa brought the book called Taurat, and that soon after it was brought it was corrupted, edited, changed, corrupted, and screwed around with to the point where the message was mostly lost.

Would a "Just, Loving, Merciful" God let everyone simply die, those who did great wrong to themselves and others, sent forth the worst of themselves, executed the worst potentials, were negative beings who did harm, do they deserve the same as one who sent forth positivity, benefited themselves and others, did little or no harm, was a great force of good in their own and the lives of others, do they deserve the same as a wrong doer, an un repenting rapist, murderer, destroyer, is that your Loving Justice and Mercy?

I believe that there is justice, that those who send forth negativity in this life so too will get it reflected back on them, and those who send forth positivity in this life, so too get it reflected back on them, is this a new concept? It is found in Hinduism, Bhuddism, Islam, Early Judaism, Christianity and many other religions around the world. A Human invention, sure, but I believe it is real and true, that there is essential justice for humans and that there is no equality in end result for those who do evil and harm and those who do good and are forces of positivity.

Dividing God into 3, Inventing a Lie that God is a Father and has a BEGOTTEN Son, I find it to be Open Blasphemy and extremely misleading. If you will divide God then Divide God into a number you will never be able to count, God is Infinite, an Infinite is Singular. Jesus was a man, we are as much a part of God as him or a tree. We are all part of and dependant on the same thing, Ultimate Reality, which this Reality exists within, and within it this Universe, and within it this World, and within it us, our lives, our perceptions.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an says that Jesus brought a book called the Injeel, this is NOT the Gospels, nor is it the New Testament, it is a book that no longer exists. The Gospels are a bunch of stories written ABOUT Jesus, not BY Jesus.

The Qur'an says that Musa brought the book called Taurat, and that soon after it was brought it was corrupted, edited, changed, corrupted, and screwed around with to the point where the message was mostly lost.

Yeah well I guess that depends on what version of the Koran you want to accept, mine says the Gospel and the Torah, and no wonder it was screwed around with as Mohammed never wrote anything down and it was not till much later the Koran was written. To this day there is controversy over the meaning of much of what has been passed down.

quote:

Would a "Just, Loving, Merciful" God let everyone simply die, those who did great wrong to themselves and others, sent forth the worst of themselves, executed the worst potentials, were negative beings who did harm, do they deserve the same as one who sent forth positivity, benefited themselves and others, did little or no harm, was a great force of good in their own and the lives of others, do they deserve the same as a wrong doer, an un repenting rapist, murderer, destroyer, is that your Loving Justice and Mercy?.

I think you are a troll, twisitng my words in defence of your indefensible position is pretty off. I did not say what I believed should be thought of as "Loving Justice and Mercy", simply that the Koranic version of god is not!

quote:

I believe that there is justice, that those who send forth negativity in this life so too will get it reflected back on them, and those who send forth positivity in this life, so too get it reflected back on them, is this a new concept? It is found in Hinduism, Bhuddism, Islam, Early Judaism, Christianity and many other religions around the world. A Human invention, sure, but I believe it is real and true, that there is essential justice for humans and that there is no equality in end result for those who do evil and harm and those who do good and are forces of positivity..

Karma will kick everybodies butt? But what is this good and evil you speak of? How does one know?

quote:Dividing God into 3, Inventing a Lie that God is a Father and has a BEGOTTEN Son, I find it to be Open Blasphemy and extremely misleading. If you will divide God then Divide God into a number you will never be able to count, God is Infinite, an Infinite is Singular. Jesus was a man, we are as much a part of God as him or a tree. We are all part of and dependant on the same thing, Ultimate Reality, which this Reality exists within, and within it this Universe, and within it this World, and within it us, our lives, our perceptions.

Once more you have missed the point, leading me to consider you as dismissive of other points of view because you are so intent on preaching yours. I'm not saying I know the answers, you are, and yet you use nonsense as your proofs and condemn others for believing in a trinitarian god. In doing this you demonstrate ignorance, xians believe god is one god, not three!

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

PS what happened to Theophany?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Once more you have missed the point, leading me to consider you as dismissive of other points of view because you are so intent on preaching yours. I'm not saying I know the answers, you are, and yet you use nonsense as your proofs and condemn others for believing in a trinitarian god. In doing this you demonstrate ignorance, xians believe god is one god, not three!

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

PS what happened to Theophany?

Yes Christians believe God is one but has 3 distinct incarnations, but that other things are not the incarnations of God, I'm stating that if Jesus is an incarnation of God so am I so is everyone else, so is a tree and a rock, so the number isn't 3, the number will be infinite, But God is Essentially One and So too are We one. Christians tend to seperate people from God, saying that we are imperfect and God is perfect and that God is there and we are here, not all christians do this just some. They have no need to say Jesus is the "Begotten son of God" or that "God is the Father" or that "Mary is the Mother of God" These are all blasphemies.

I am stating that God is what everything exists within and is made of, you can consider it the knowledge that allows us to exist and operate, I'm not really stating anything absurd or unreal or too crazy to be considered.

Your Translation of the Qur'an says Torah and Gospel but the Qur'an in Arabic says Injeel in reference to Jesus, which was a book he directly wrote and brought to the B'Nei Israel, it isn't the New Testament or teachings of Jesus from other people, the New Testament is more similar to the Hadith that many muslims follow (Stories about Muhammed)

The Qur'an is actually from the era it was invented in and makes SELF reference to itself as a complete book, the history is unknown though, and unverifiable, it is coming from Hadiths and I don't believe in it, nor do many educated non muslim Historians, I believe the Hadith and its information (written way after the Qur'an and its time) are unverifiable and most likely false. I believe when the Qur'an was completed it was completed even back then, thats even how the Qur'an makes reference to how it is being collected.

Yes I'm saying I know the answers: That God can never be a Man or a Being within Reality but what everything is within dependant on and existing by, not seperate.

quote:Originally posted by Ravendust:

But I like mental masturbation =(

Look at this thread, everyone else here does too.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Yes Christians believe God is one but has 3 distinct incarnations, but that other things are not the incarnations of God, I'm stating that if Jesus is an incarnation of God so am I so is everyone else, so is a tree and a rock, so the number isn't 3, the number will be infinite, But God is Essentially One and So too are We one. Christians tend to seperate people from God, saying that we are imperfect and God is perfect and that God is there and we are here, not all christians do this just some. They have no need to say Jesus is the "Begotten son of God" or that "God is the Father" or that "Mary is the Mother of God" These are all blasphemies.

I've not heard of xians who believe god has three incarnations, hindus on the other hand believe god has incarnated at least five times as Krishna. As I understand it the trinity is an inadequate way of explaining the mystery of a God who is the ground of our being, and yet is also a being to whom humans may relate.

The 'blasphemies' you speak of remind me of the gospel story when Jesus was accused of blasphemy for saying he was the Son of God. His reply was that the Jews laws, as written in the Psalms, said in effect that humans are god.(John 10:34(ASV) "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?" Psalm 82:6(ASV) "I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.") For Jesus to claim this as his defence, to a charge carrying the death penalty, it indicates his position as being not at all different to you or I. The Roman Catholics and their cults ignore the implications of Jesus constantly referring to himself as both the son of God and also the son of man, and then defending a charge of blasphemy with a law that says that we all are gods.

quote:I am stating that God is what everything exists within and is made of, you can consider it the knowledge that allows us to exist and operate, I'm not really stating anything absurd or unreal or too crazy to be considered..

What you say here sounds reasonable to me and would likely lead to discovering common ground much more than Islamic rhetoric.

quote:Your Translation of the Qur'an says Torah and Gospel but the Qur'an in Arabic says Injeel in reference to Jesus, which was a book he directly wrote and brought to the B'Nei Israel, it isn't the New Testament or teachings of Jesus from other people, the New Testament is more similar to the Hadith that many muslims follow (Stories about Muhammed).

This is the same problem the xians have, nobody can agree on what the 'best' most 'accurate' version is.

quote:The Qur'an is actually from the era it was invented in and makes SELF reference to itself as a complete book, the history is unknown though, and unverifiable, it is coming from Hadiths and I don't believe in it, nor do many educated non muslim Historians, I believe the Hadith and its information (written way after the Qur'an and its time) are unverifiable and most likely false. I believe when the Qur'an was completed it was completed even back then, thats even how the Qur'an makes reference to how it is being collected..

"The Koranic revelations followed each other at brief intervals and were at first committed to memory by professional remembrancers. During Muhammed's lifetime verses were written on palm-leaves, stones, and any material that came to hand. Their collection was completed during the caliphate of 'Umar the second Caliph, and an authorized version was established during the caliphate of Uthman, his successor(644-56). To this day this version is regarded by believers as the authoritative Word of God. But owing to the fact that the kufic script in which the Koran was originally written contained no indication of vowels or diacritical points, variant readings are recognised by Muslims as of equal authority". N.J.Dawood



quote:Yes I'm saying I know the answers: That God can never be a Man or a Being within Reality but what everything is within dependant on and existing by, not seperate.

You seem to contradict yourself by saying God cannot be a man yet "everything is within dependant on and existing by, not seperate." If God is reality and man is reality also, does this not mean man is also God?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

You seem to contradict yourself by saying God cannot be a man yet "everything is within dependant on and existing by, not seperate." If God is reality and man is reality also, does this not mean man is also God?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Is a man the whole of Reality? Is a Tree? They are only parts of the Whole, the One. I don't mean to contradict myself, you are indeed a part of God as I am and as the floor and every atom. An Atom is not the Whole of Reality is it? Does everything exist within that Atom? Everything exists within Reality, it encompasses the whole, parts dont: Contradiction?

Also what you copy pasted about it being comitted to memory is not what the Qur'an says about the matter, but what people who were not present at the time, written centuries later had to say, from books called the Hadiths, which are unverifiable, and written by people who had no relation to events and werent even born or present at the time of those events, the Hadiths are responsible for much of the problems in the religion of Islam and are a force which mislead many, many historians (non muslim) do not even accept them, I don't accept them either, there is actually no historically verifiable record of the times in which the Qur'an was revealed, only the Qur'an is from that time, it says that with every revelation they were written, not memorized. It also makes reference to itself as a Book but also acknowledges that it comes down in phases. Everytime a new revelation came it was written according to the Qur'an.

AI, why do you think my sources are biased?

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

AI, why do you think my sources are biased?

Theophany can you please follow my God, if not, why, did you read my post about Blasphemy?

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

AI, why do you think my sources are biased?

I'm happy that you're still alive.

You may recall studies the nazi's did that showed why arians are better, or the master race. That's why they are biased. No studies by non-nazi's would ever come up with those results, and they would prove otherwise conclusively. No non-creationists would come up with that data, and evolutionists would and have proved conclusively otherwise. That's why.

Scientific (as in non-religious) journals would be non-biased sources. You need to find actual scientific journals that publish these results. If they were seriously true, science would publish them.

I'm sorry, but creationist websites are full of easily refuted arguments using logical fallacies. They do, however, usually look reasonable (if you don't really know what you're talking about) and if you are just looking for reassurance, they will suit you just fine. And that's the only purpose of them.

There are reasons Ken Hovind will only do spoken debates - he is charismatic.

There is a reason he won't do a formal, written debate - he is wrong.

Maybe he just doesn't have a pencil?

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

AI, why do you think my sources are biased?

They are not scientific sources, they are funded by, influenced by, or out to fulfill a religous agenda.

Bias:

To influence in a particular, typically unfair direction; prejudice.

If you only accept science based on your beliefs you are ultimately influenced by only your beliefs and not true science.

For example what if I used this as a source:

quote:"The world also is stablished that it cannot be moved." Psalm 93:1 "He...hangeth the Earth upon nothing." Job 26:7

Levitating Globe

"An electromagnet and computerized sensor hidden in its

display stand cause the Earth to levitate motionlessly in the air."

Could God have engineered something like that for the real Earth?

The Bible and all real evidence confirms that this is precisely what He did, and indeed:

The Earth is not rotating...nor is it going around the sun.

The universe is not one ten trillionth the size we are told.

Today’s cosmology fulfills an anti-Bible religious plan disguised as "science".

The whole scheme from Copernicanism to Big Bangism is a factless lie.

Those lies have planted the Truth-killing virus of evolutionism

in every aspect of man’s "knowledge" about the Universe, the

Earth, and Himself.



http://www.fixedearth.com/

Or this as a source:

quote:Brahman is the foundation of all being, and that the universe has a definite origin from Brahman; and yet at the ultimate level, all assertions of a distinction between Brahman and creation are meaningless. This is not to say however, that in some more superficial sense the assertion is not true, that Brahman is distinct from the creation brought forth. Therefore, according to Upanishadic teaching, it is not false to speak of Hindu Creationism.

Or this as a source:

quote: * An invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, starting with a mountain, trees and a midgit.

A depiction of the creation of the universe with the Monster, a tree-covered mountain, and a "midgit."

Enlarge

A depiction of the creation of the universe with the Monster, a tree-covered mountain, and a "midgit."

* Global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct consequence of the decline in numbers of pirates since the 19th century.

* All evidence pointing toward evolution was intentionally planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The FSM tests Pastafarians' faith by making things look older than they really are. "For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease."

* Pastafarian heaven includes at least one "beer volcano" and one stripper factory.

* "RAmen" is the official conclusion to prayers, certain sections of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc., and is a combination of the Hebrew term "Amen" (as used in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) and Ramen, a type of noodles. While it is typically spelt with both a capital "R" and "A", it is also acceptable to spell it with only a capital R.



All those above unless noted otherwise are taken from wikipedia.

See how bias that information is? None of it is science, based on science, or not influenced by religion.

That is why we search for valid information otherwise we could end up a believer of one of those things. Do you also believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster? I know I don't.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Is a man the whole of Reality? Is a Tree? They are only parts of the Whole, the One. I don't mean to contradict myself, you are indeed a part of God as I am and as the floor and every atom. An Atom is not the Whole of Reality is it? Does everything exist within that Atom? Everything exists within Reality, it encompasses the whole, parts dont: Contradiction?

Is my foot not an integral part of me? Is the atom in the right thumbnail? How can there be such a distinction? If humans are made of the same substance as god then are we as much god as our hand or foot is a part of us? Perhaps more so, we can be seperated from hand or foot, the one substance of reality is indivisable.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Also what you copy pasted about it being comitted to memory is not what the Qur'an says about the matter, but what people who were not present at the time, written centuries later had to say, from books called the Hadiths, which are unverifiable, and written by people who had no relation to events and werent even born or present at the time of those events, the Hadiths are responsible for much of the problems in the religion of Islam and are a force which mislead many, many historians (non muslim) do not even accept them, I don't accept them either, there is actually no historically verifiable record of the times in which the Qur'an was revealed, only the Qur'an is from that time, it says that with every revelation they were written, not memorized. It also makes reference to itself as a Book but also acknowledges that it comes down in phases. Everytime a new revelation came it was written according to the Qur'an.



Herein lies a classic example of using a 'holy' book as a proof for itelf. How is it reasonable to expect belief in the contents of a book unless the events described therein correspond to reality. Your version of reality, and thus your version of God and choice of holy book all stem from your unique view of life. Respectfully you are welcome to your religion, however your level of proof simply is not grounded in sufficiently verifiable way. You seem to behave like an evangelist, you are not interested in discussion, nor do you respect the beliefs of others(accusing of blasphemy on the grounds of your erroneous view of the trinity) whilst your own beliefs are as difficult to verify. Yoda say "Open your mind" http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) where is the love? I searched my copy of the Koran and it's index, where is the love? I came to the Koran with some hope, read how Mohammed fared and agreed with the truth of his statement the xians had indeed strayed from the path of unity taught by their Lord. However with the hindsight of history we see that Mohammed's followers also failed the same test.

IMHO the Koran reads like the relax/disturb tactics of shonky salespeople and the annoying missionaries knocking at the door! Farout promises of paradise and dark eyed maidens, followed by dire threats and graphic descriptions of the dastardly fate awaiting those for whom your flimsy proofs are simply not enough. Today is the day, life is here and now, what is better: to live in fear of making a mistake and being condemned by your merciful, compassionate god to an eternity of suffering, or: to be free?

Free from those thoughts that have nothing to do with reality. Free to live and love without conditions such as being of the right religion. Loving and respecting all other humans because they are reflections of the same souurce, being open to and listening for that which is good and reasonable in their beliefs. Establishing common grounds and dialoguing rather than aggressive charges of blasphemy. I wonder have you read in your version of the Koran how a believer is to act towards a xian?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Herein lies a classic example of using a 'holy' book as a proof for itelf. How is it reasonable to expect belief in the contents of a book unless the events described therein correspond to reality. Your version of reality, and thus your version of God and choice of holy book all stem from your unique view of life. Respectfully you are welcome to your religion, however your level of proof simply is not grounded in sufficiently verifiable way. You seem to behave like an evangelist, you are not interested in discussion, nor do you respect the beliefs of others(accusing of blasphemy on the grounds of your erroneous view of the trinity) whilst your own beliefs are as difficult to verify. Yoda say "Open your mind" http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) where is the love? I searched my copy of the Koran and it's index, where is the love? I came to the Koran with some hope, read how Mohammed fared and agreed with the truth of his statement the xians had indeed strayed from the path of unity taught by their Lord. However with the hindsight of history we see that Mohammed's followers also failed the same test.

IMHO the Koran reads like the relax/disturb tactics of shonky salespeople and the annoying missionaries knocking at the door! Farout promises of paradise and dark eyed maidens, followed by dire threats and graphic descriptions of the dastardly fate awaiting those for whom your flimsy proofs are simply not enough. Today is the day, life is here and now, what is better: to live in fear of making a mistake and being condemned by your merciful, compassionate god to an eternity of suffering, or: to be free?

Free from those thoughts that have nothing to do with reality. Free to live and love without conditions such as being of the right religion. Loving and respecting all other humans because they are reflections of the same souurce, being open to and listening for that which is good and reasonable in their beliefs. Establishing common grounds and dialoguing rather than aggressive charges of blasphemy. I wonder have you read in your version of the Koran how a believer is to act towards a xian?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Your Foot, Your Body, and everything around you, is a part of God, not one of these things is the Whole of God, all is within.

Here are some random quotes in relation to how the Qur'an, might view the Trinity and other quotes I found while looking around:



004.171

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : Cease: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

_________________________________________

005.073

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

005.074

Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

005.075

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

005.076

Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."

005.077

Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

____________________________

039.007

...No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your Return...

039.008

When some trouble toucheth man, he crieth unto his Lord, turning to Him in repentance: but when He bestoweth a favour upon him as from Himself, (man) doth forget what he cried and prayed for before, and he doth set up rivals unto Allah, thus misleading others from Allah's Path. Say, "Enjoy thy blasphemy for a little while: verily thou art (one) of the Companions of the Fire!"

_________________________________

112.001

Say: He is Allah, the One!

112.002

Allah is He on Whom all depend.

112.003

He begets not, nor is He begotten.

112.004

And there is none comparable.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

039.009

Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or standing (in adoration), who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord - (like one who does not)? Say: "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.

039.010

Say: "O you servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is for those who do good in this world. Spacious is Allah's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!"

039.011

Say: "Verily, I am commanded to serve Allah with sincere devotion;

039.012

"And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam(Submission)

039.013

Say: "I would, if I disobeyed my Lord, indeed have fear of the Penalty of a Mighty Day."

039.014

Say: "It is Allah I serve, with my sincere evotion:

039.015

Then worship what ye will beside Him. Say: "The losers will be those who lose themselves and their housefolk on the Day of Resurrection. That will be the clear loss!

031.034

Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things).

___________________________________

So thats a little of the various things the Qur'an has to say about Blasphemy, some of the things one might say, and more.

I hope that you might at least grasp the concept of God. I don't see God as a force of Restriction, God is what allows you to think, move, breath, walk, exist, and so too the environment around you, and the environment that it is within, and beyond that. You are completely dependant on God, appreciate everything.

Do what is best for yourself and others, what is good and beneficial. I don't see that you are restricted from anything that is Good.

I don't believe it is possible to "stop thinking" until you are dead, you are always thinking, and that isn't a bad thing, nor should it get in the way of gaining knowledge and wisdom. Thinking is wonderful! Yes, live in the moment, you do despite, but does that mean to do things without fear of reprecussions? So be equitable, wise, and have forsight in judgement of your actions: Do what is best.

Be considerate, and consider how every step leads to another and walk not with your eyes shut, look around you, look ahead of you, take a peak behind your shoulder, make sure you are on the straight path.

Stopping to think, Shutting your Eyes, will you not appreciate your mind and vision, use it to its fullest capacity for benefit? Open your mind and your eyes, walk with awareness.

Pay attention to yourself as well, with all of your posts, you end it with a truth, Namaste:

"In a religious context this word can be taken to mean any of these:

The Spirit in me meets the same Spirit in you.

I greet that place where you and I are one.

I salute the divine in you.

I salute the Light of God in you.

I bow to the divine in you.

I recognize that within each of us is a place where Divinity dwells, and when we are in that place, we are One.

In other words, it recognizes the equality of all, and pays honor to the sacredness and interconnection of all, as well as to the source of that interconnection. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namaste

My God appears in Hinduism too

brahma (nominative singular), brahman (stem) (neuter[1] gender) means the concept of the Supreme transcendent and immanent Reality or the One Godhead or Cosmic Spirit in Hinduism; this is discussed below. Also note that the word Brahman in this sense is exceptionally treated as masculine (see the Merrill-Webster Sanskrit Dictionary). It is called "the Brahman" in English.

This is what I want for you:

"Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajñā, Pāli: paññā http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

1. Right understanding

2. Right thought

Ethical conduct (Sanskrit: śīla, Pāli: sīla)

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

Mental discipline (Sanskrit and Pāli: samādhi)

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration"

I believe you can find a beneficial way of life in the Qur'an, so I promote the Qur'an. A simple, peaceful, productive life, not lacking a connection to God, an understanding of God, which would lead to the submission to God, The Brahman, Allah, The Ultimate Reality.

When you do that, you will find peace, and will be on the path of the Tao. The Eightfold Path to Nirvana, The Straight Path.

It is the way to remove suffering from within yourself, and from without yourself, and to purify yourself, to be One with the Tao, To be in a state of submission to God. There is no conflict between living life well and submitting to God, in fact, the latter in my opinion is what is the final piece of the puzzle to living an effective and healthy, productive and fulfilled life.

To be whole, with understanding, filled with knowledge, a motion of right action. You'll be so happy if you could find it. That is what I want for you and everyone I talk to and myself, and we are moving towards God, every moment, and fighting it, denying it, blinding yourself and closing your heart is not the way to find peace.

There is one Religion, everywhere, since the earliest, it in its description gets modified, its message misunderstood, it is one message.

I find that the Qur'an, the book itself, contains this message and has remained relatively pure compared to the others, its text is unchanged from its earliest form and its message is clear. Most Muslims today do not follow the Qur'an or heed, or even comprehend its message, instead they shut their eyes, and follow other books, of their own invention. I want you to read the Qur'an, and furthermore, I want you to follow it, and live a good life, and be on the straight path. Can you be on the straight path without reading it? Sure you can, and why would you want to do that when it is made easy and the book is right there for you? A Guidance and a Light, a Reassurance for those who Believe and Submit.

What am I asking you to do that is wrong? Am I asking you to harm yourself? To destroy things?

I am not taking away your freedom, the knowledge will set you free.

In every life, perhaps more than once, the message comes in one way or another, it would be best that you don't turn away.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I want you to read the Qur'an, and furthermore, I want you to follow it, and live a good life, and be on the straight path. Can you be on the straight path without reading it? Sure you can, and why would you want to do that when it is made easy and the book is right there for you? A Guidance and a Light, a Reassurance for those who Believe and Submit.

I have read it, I looked for the good and found some, mostly though, it read not to differently to the Old Testament. Lots of threats and unsubstantiated claims and promises. How can it be a reassurance when it clearly condemns fellow human beings to eternal suffering? So many of my secular friends and relatives living and passed away will spend forever in torment because they did not believe? What sort of heaven would that be knowing that one's loved ones are in torment?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What am I asking you to do that is wrong? Am I asking you to harm yourself? To destroy things?

I am not taking away your freedom, the knowledge will set you free.



Yes you are asking me to believe in something for which you have insufficient proof. Your "ultimate reality is god" theory is unproven and not necessary to explain existence. As stated above it would harm me to take on your beliefs, psychologically I would be consigning many loved ones to eternal damnation.

Know the truth and the truth will set you free!

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Could you explain your theory?

quote: Theophany- The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator.

________________________________________

Please present unbias sources of information. I will check all your sources to see if they are funded, run by, or influenced by religous institutes that would corrupt the "research" they conduct. If you would like to present information for your claim try an unbias source like nasa etc.

When I referenced Biblical records I was not using it as a scientific source. I was cross referencing to scripture to develop the idea of creationism. Before that I listed a scientific source. Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994) Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166

In all do respect, you have failed to address any of the information from my post. (I think you’ll find that all my references are credible. That’s why I gave you a complete bibliography.) How is your research coming on discovering if scientists I referenced are biased? Why not directly discuss the earth’s magnetic field etc. It is extremely easy to sit back and claim folly on all my sources without attending one topic.



Furthermore, if you want to discuss prejudice let’s talk about evolution science. "We (evolutionists) have been telling our students for years not to accept any statement on its face value but to examine the evidence, and, therefore, it is rather a shock to discover that we have failed to follow our own sound advice." John T, Bonner / And don’t reiterate your wishes of not addressing evolution. It is perfectly acceptable in educated dialogue to contrast two of the most conflicting theories of origin and descent.

Here is what I want you to do: directly refute just the first two points on the magnetic field and stars. If they are biased then this task should be incredibly easy.

As for population, your claim is unnecessary. It is perfectly logical to make estimations of the earth’s population quote:World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. This has considered several factors including disease and war. If you wish to refute this point show me that the growth rate is not 2% or that it is illogical to assume that the growth rate would be half.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

When I referenced Biblical records I was not using it as a scientific source. I was cross referencing to scripture to develop the idea of creationism. Before that I listed a scientific source. Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994) Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166

In all do respect, you have failed to address any of the information from my post. (I think you’ll find that all my references are credible. That’s why I gave you a complete bibliography.) How is your research coming on discovering if scientists I referenced are biased? Why not directly discuss the earth’s magnetic field etc. It is extremely easy to sit back and claim folly on all my sources without attending one topic.



Furthermore, if you want to discuss prejudice let’s talk about evolution science. "We (evolutionists) have been telling our students for years not to accept any statement on its face value but to examine the evidence, and, therefore, it is rather a shock to discover that we have failed to follow our own sound advice." John T, Bonner / And don’t reiterate your wishes of not addressing evolution. It is perfectly acceptable in educated dialogue to contrast two of the most conflicting theories of origin and descent.

Here is what I want you to do: directly refute just the first two points on the magnetic field and stars. If they are biased then this task should be incredibly easy.

As for population, your claim is unnecessary. It is perfectly logical to make estimations of the earth’s population World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. This has considered several factors including disease and war. If you wish to refute this point show me that the growth rate is not 2% or that it is illogical to assume that the growth rate would be half.



Lauren, let's think this out..

Key word: In recent times

Recently the growth rate has been 2% per year. Exactly how is one to know that 1% would be accurate for the rest of human history? Where are these numbers coming from?

And if we only grow by 2% per year now, in modern times, with hospitals and everything, it doesn't take vast amounts of intelligence to realize how slow the population must've been growing before. I mean, we have documented plagues that killed a large fraction of Europe. How are we to know that things like that didn't happen more often?

Either way, there is no way to reasonably demonstrate any of that, and further, if you are to make the claim, you have to provide non-biased scientific sources. Although theists often forget this, they are the ones making the supernatural fantasy claims, and the burden of proof is on them.

Further, I believe he doesn't want you to keep going back to evolution because you tend to use it as a crutch. You just assert that creationism is true and that it fills in the gaps of evolution. Also, your understanding of evolution is generally not correct, as it is often misrepresented (strawmen) on creationist websites. If you don't get it, go to talk origins. Besides, creationism has been disproved by many other things and he wants you to address them because it is harder to play God of the gaps with the other fields.

I'll ask another question: Do you believe the earth orbits the sun, or the other way around?

Because if you are truly a literalist, then you have to believe that, and people do.

Check out fixedearth.com

They are so obviously and laughably wrong that it is funny, but look at the way they argue. They do it exactly like you do.

They act like science is a religion disguised as science, that it is a myth, and so on until it gets so crazy that you don't know if it is a satirical parody site or if they truly are absolutely insane fundamental wackos.

And one final question...

Are you a Genesis 1 creationist or Genesis 2?

quote: and further, if you are to make the claim, you have to provide non-biased scientific sources. Although theists often forget this, they are the ones making the supernatural fantasy claims, and the burden of proof is on them.

The burden of proof is on everyone. If you are to make a claim you must verify it. (I sited the population reference) For instance, earlier you claimed that it made no sense that God would allow other religions to exist. Do you think you have the knowledge and logic of God? Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense in general. Moreover, you are not the authority on verity and sense.

quote: Further, I believe he doesn't want you to keep going back to evolution because you tend to use it as a crutch. You just assert that creationism is true and that it fills in the gaps of evolution.

That is infuriating nonsense. I despise theistic evolution. I can never logically believe that something will come from nothing. It has never been proven nor will it ever be proven. It is my belief that God created the earth as claimed in Genesis, verbatim. My soul purpose of highlighting the theory of evolution is to contrast it with my belief in creation. How is this a crutch? How is this filling in the gaps? It is neither, it is just a conversational tool.

theophany you dodge my questions and then accuss me of not considering your sources as credible sources, when they are funded by religous institutes? Did I not just show why that wouldn't work? You didn't even answer the questions much less give credible sources.



Also once again you went refering to evolution. Do you know why you do this? Because creationism has no substance. There is no science behind it, only people trying to fulfill religous objectives. If you don't think thats true prove me wrong and don't involve evolution in your arguements.



quote:Originally Posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it.



How the light traveling distances farther than possible in the amount of time given by the creationist model, could occur.



Why the universe is constantly changing and new stars and galaxies are being born at this time if the universe was born in about it's present state 6000 years ago?



Why no non-creationist/non-religous scientific source agrees with your age of the universe?



Please answer these questions with the mathematics backing up your responces, and or claims

You still have not actually addressed one of those questions.

"The burden of proof is on everyone. If you are to make a claim you must verify it. "



I can't agree with that more. Remember this:

quote:Originally Posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

I cannot stress that enought because I want scientific proof of creationism with the fundemental mathematics. Without this it is false. I still have a feeling I will get some reply against evolution not actually evidence of creationism.

Without evidence of what your saying, it is just as likely the world was made by greek gods.

So until undeniale evidence is presented, then I'll have to assume your religion is as unfounded as any other.

The only thing good about your religion is jesus. Unlike jesus many of his "followers" are hypocrites, phycopaths, and violently oppressive.

Without science your religion is little more than childhood fantasy, no different than any other mythology.

See why I view it as mythology?

In order for you to be any where near correct your claims must stand up to questioning and fully answer said questions.

Untill this scientific/mathematical evidence is presented I don't have any reason to believe your beliefs any more than the other mythologies.

quote:Originally posted by theopathy:

This has considered several factors including disease and war. If you wish to refute this point show me that the growth rate is not 2% or that it is illogical to assume that the growth rate would be half.



No it hasn't, it hasn't considered those points. It assumes everything, those arn't estimates they are guestimates at best. Like I said unless you claim to know every plague, every war, every population boom, every natural disaster, every little detail, then you are not estimating your guestimating. Besides you think a 2% population increase would be consistant. Even in the past 300 years it was fashinable to have familys with 12-25 kids. My grandparents were born into families that large. Nowadays that sort of family would be very rare, and the 2-3 children family is dominant. Thats just recently, as you can imagine population fluctuations have occured throughout history.

If you still claim it is correct then read what I said about it later in this post.

quote:Originally posted by theopathy:

In all do respect, you have failed to address any of the information from my post. (I think you’ll find that all my references are credible. That’s why I gave you a complete bibliography.)

I went into specific detail why I do not find them credible. I did this MANY times. Also much of that post did not refer to the question you claimed to address. Heres just one of those posts.

Remember you said:

Originally posted by theophany:

AI, why do you think my sources are biased?

I responded by saying:

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:



They are not scientific sources, they are funded by, influenced by, or out to fulfill a religous agenda.

Bias:

To influence in a particular, typically unfair direction; prejudice.



If you only accept science based on your beliefs you are ultimately influenced by only your beliefs and not true science.

For example what if I used this as a source:

"The world also is stablished that it cannot be moved." Psalm 93:1 "He...hangeth the Earth upon nothing." Job 26:7

Levitating Globe

"An electromagnet and computerized sensor hidden in its

display stand cause the Earth to levitate motionlessly in the air."

Could God have engineered something like that for the real Earth?

The Bible and all real evidence confirms that this is precisely what He did, and indeed:

The Earth is not rotating...nor is it going around the sun.

The universe is not one ten trillionth the size we are told.

Today’s cosmology fulfills an anti-Bible religious plan disguised as "science".

The whole scheme from Copernicanism to Big Bangism is a factless lie.

Those lies have planted the Truth-killing virus of evolutionism

in every aspect of man’s "knowledge" about the Universe, the

Earth, and Himself.



http://www.fixedearth.com/

Or this as a source:

Brahman is the foundation of all being, and that the universe has a definite origin from Brahman; and yet at the ultimate level, all assertions of a distinction between Brahman and creation are meaningless. This is not to say however, that in some more superficial sense the assertion is not true, that Brahman is distinct from the creation brought forth. Therefore, according to Upanishadic teaching, it is not false to speak of Hindu Creationism.

Or this as a source:

* An invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, starting with a mountain, trees and a midgit.

A depiction of the creation of the universe with the Monster, a tree-covered mountain, and a "midgit."

Enlarge

A depiction of the creation of the universe with the Monster, a tree-covered mountain, and a "midgit."

* Global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct consequence of the decline in numbers of pirates since the 19th century.

* All evidence pointing toward evolution was intentionally planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The FSM tests Pastafarians' faith by making things look older than they really are. "For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease."

* Pastafarian heaven includes at least one "beer volcano" and one stripper factory.

* "RAmen" is the official conclusion to prayers, certain sections of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc., and is a combination of the Hebrew term "Amen" (as used in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) and Ramen, a type of noodles. While it is typically spelt with both a capital "R" and "A", it is also acceptable to spell it with only a capital R.



All those above unless noted otherwise are taken from wikipedia.

See how bias that information is? None of it is science, based on science, or not influenced by religion.

That is why we search for valid information otherwise we could end up a believer of one of those things. Do you also believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster? I know I don't.

quote:Originally posted by theopathy:

Why not directly discuss the earth’s magnetic field etc.

I think it was discussed and the earth's magnetic field shifts every so often so if it was used to measure the age of the earth then you would only be measuring the amount of time since the last shift in magnetic polarity. I learned that in middle school, and reviewed it in highschool. It is a very simple concept, are you choosing to overlook it, or did you really not know? Besides people in this thread already attended that "one topic."

quote:Originally posted by theopathy:

Furthermore, if you want to discuss prejudice let’s talk about evolution science.

Theres no point in talking about evolution, I'm not asking if that theory is correct, I'm asking if creationism is correct. Creationism being correct has absolutley no corrolation to wether or not evolution is correct.

Further more I never claimed evolution was right, you are the only one talking about evolution.

You need to show proof for your theory, not debunk the other ones.

quote:Originally posted by theopathy:

Here is what I want you to do: directly refute just the first two points on the magnetic field and stars. If they are biased then this task should be incredibly easy.

As for population, your claim is unnecessary. It is perfectly logical to make estimations of the earth’s population

I'm pretty sure they were both addressed. I know the magnetic field was addressed in this thread already. I don't know what your talking about with the stars. Please repost whatever your talking about.

As for earths population, I have to claim your source is either seriously flawed, considering the claim it made, or out to fulfill religous goals.

If you still think it is credible then I will verify it is not funded by, influenced by, or run by, a religous establishment. Also I need to see how they came to this conclusion to see if their methode was in anyway accurate and to see if they took into account all of the rediculous number of factors.

Edit: Fixed quotes







[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-02-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

they dupe themselves and each other, and their goal is to pursuade the world to surrender reason. To 'have faith' instead.





Glad to see you are embracing truth and reason over bullshit and fairy tales.

What took you so long? Usually if you havn't worked out its not real by your early adolescence you are fucked for life.



Thread starter, there is as much proof for christianity as there is for Hinduism, paganism, islam, judaism etc.

this alone should tell you, people from all over the world will make up stories to explain shit they dont understand and to make them feel better.

Name one religion that doesnt have an afterlife?

It is not a neccessity for there to be some kind of magical dimension where some part of us that can never be measured and is not nessecary in any way to explain how life works (the soul) in order to have a creator.

Just because you don't know the answer doesn't mean it was some magic man who is everywhere yet cannot be measured or proven to exist in any way, even though in the ancient past he proved his existence numerous times without bothering about "free will" or "denying faith".

Here's one for you christo-pussies.

If god is perfect, all powerful and 100% good, why are his creations that do harm?

God has free will, he is all good, so why can't he make good creations. If there are good and evil people, why cant god just make good ones?

Since when has god not interfered with humanity? If he can drown the entire earth, surely he can stop a tidal wave or make lighting strike a murderer before he kills.

Your stupid fantasies are beneath you. Ditch the bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

True Christianity calls for the search for truth, the truth of Christ and his purpose. Let us always focus on that. The rest is rhetoric.



Have you just taken one moment to listen to what THE FUCK you are saying?

Christianity says the bible is the word of god and anything else is wrong. How the FUCK is that searching for truth?

Christianity has constantly tried to block science since people started saying the earth revolved around the sun and that heaven was not in the sky. Now its cloning, stem cell research (OMG USING AN UMBILICAL CORD IS TEH PLAYING GOD!), genetic engineering etc.

If humans can alter the DNA of other creatures, something tells me that you dont need a all magical super man to explain the existance of life.



Christians used to think illness was demons/the devil. All that time wasted on bullshit exorcism and prayer that could have been used on finding vacines and devoloping anti bodies.

I will not hate christians if you go out now and give your life to save another person (donate your heart or something).

If you truly believe your bullshit you will go to heaven for doing such a good act and enjoy an eternity (go figure) of happyness.

One last thing, can you point to "the soul" on a medical textbook? Didn't think you could.

Emotions arent contained in the heart by the way, they're a series of chemical and electrical signal IN TEH BRAINS!! OMG!!

you can be a christian and not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible dumbfuck.

you don't give a shit about truth or validity, you just want to win the argument you sophist.

"There was only one true Christian - and he died on the cross."

*yawn* Occam's razor... Thanks for coming.

In referance to credible sources my professors always told me when conducting research to always find .edu sites because they are more credible that other websites, after all anyone can make a website. I have found a .edu site with information in referance to Baugh, Carl, Author of: Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)

If I remember correctly this was one of your sources.

Below is a link to a credible source discrediting Baugh, Carl. As you can see the extent of his education comes into question.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/dmorgan/baugh.htm

Also listed are 32 websites sited proof of which Carl Baugh was vigerously researched. Some of the sites include his website as well as creationist websites.

quote:Taken from http://plaza.ufl.edu/dmorgan/baugh.htm :

· In Summary:

I have shown with no ambiguity that all his undergraduate and graduate degrees (if one—Burton, even exists) are clearly unaccredited. I showed this by finding out from the universities and the accrediting agency when they received accreditation, and in all cases, graduate and undergraduate, none were accredited at the time Baugh received his degrees listed on his own webpage. The thesis title gives a clear indication as to what his Ph.D. was earned in: “Christian Education”. Education doctoral degrees, or Ed.D., are much different in scope and requirement, and obviously accreditation is requisite if you want to claim validity of any degree. Any questions can be answered by tracing down the well-documented references below.

That is just the summary but the full extent of the article can be read there.

The only sites supporting him are creationist websites that are run by, funded by, or influenced by religious motives.

We can clearly identify such websites by looking up the server they belong to. My web browser does this automatically, this makes it easy to identify the source of the information, and integrity of websites.

To conclude your source of information is not credible, as even the scientific community is denouncing him.

Your source is in no way credible.



[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

The burden of proof is on everyone. If you are to make a claim you must verify it. (I sited the population reference) For instance, earlier you claimed that it made no sense that God would allow other religions to exist. Do you think you have the knowledge and logic of God? Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense in general. Moreover, you are not the authority on verity and sense.

That is infuriating nonsense. I despise theistic evolution. I can never logically believe that something will come from nothing. It has never been proven nor will it ever be proven. It is my belief that God created the earth as claimed in Genesis, verbatim. My soul purpose of highlighting the theory of evolution is to contrast it with my belief in creation. How is this a crutch? How is this filling in the gaps? It is neither, it is just a conversational tool.

You didn't actually answer any of the questions I asked, by the way.

Yes, the burden of proof is on anyone making a claim, when did I say differently?

I'm saying that theists are the ones making the claim, and the burden of proof is on them.

If someone claimed to have invented an anti-gravity device, they would have to prove it. The rest of the world doesn't need to 'claim' otherwise, and they don't need to prove otherwise. If I were to declare such a device exists somewhere, and then say to the world, "Now prove me wrong," without presenting my own proof, I would be laughed at.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

And second, it's not nonsense. He has said that he doesn't want you to mention evolution. The reason is simple; if creationism is a valid scientific theory, it must have scientific evidence which proves it. He wants you to provide this without contrasting theories.

In all seriousness, beyond the bible there is absolutely no proof for creationism.

If I am wrong, provide said evidence without mentioning evolution.

Got it?

He doesn't want you to mention evolution because even if evolution is completely wrong, creationism doesn't win by default.

If evolution was proved wrong tomorrow, creationism wouldn't suddenly be accepted.

Let's pretend for a minute that evolution is wrong.

Prove creationism is a valid scientific theory.



EDIT:

I forgot to address all of your points, which I always try to do.

Do I claim to have the logic and knowledge of God?

No. (well, if he were to exist anyway..)

However, I think it is unreasonable of God to give me logic, reason, and intelligence which concludes that his faith is illogical.

You appeal very often to the fact that our logic and reason may be wrong, and below God.

Well, yea. I don't understand infinity.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is what we can understand, and it's those parts which I am concerned with.

Sure, maybe everything can be logically and reasonably justified by God, just not by humans.

Fine, if you want to say that, except then it is true that, by definition, belief in God is unreasonable.

So thank you, that's what I've been trying to prove this whole time.

[This message has been edited by IanBoyd3 (edited 07-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Could you explain your theory?



Theory? How about an enquiring mind that will not tolerate anything that does not agree with reason, reason continually pricks and prods at theories and if it does not add up ... http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) Thing is once bitten twice shy and being raised by a fundamentalist christian, fully believing it until mature enough to form my own opinions. Confronted by the contradiction, cruelty and deception of that which is called the 'christian' religion ... http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif), and then discovering how illogical that path is, how self defeating, negative, wasteful .. http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

Now I am determined to believe nothing beyond that which agrees with reason. To my mind it is perfectly reasonable to believe the universe/existence/reality exists because it is not possible for nothing to exist therefore something must exist -- it does -- therefore existence/reality just 'is'.

It does not require a god figure to create it, existence is the imperative! In the absence of any opposite, or alternative to existence, existence is unbounded and therefore must be infinite, and because there cannot be an alternative to existence it is in effect a 'singularity'. That singularity, the 'one' thing we might term simply as existence, or you may use "Ultimate Reality", appears as divided into many things, but is essentially the one thing for there cannot be other than existence/something. So far no need for supernatural agreed?

(Not to deny the divine, no simply seeking a reasonable explanation for those things which so many of my fellows see as divine and term, even worship, as God.)

[Talking theories, remember that please, these are theories and they beg to be tested and tried, modified or abandoned, for what I want is the same as you and all others: release from suffering and the experience of happiness.]

Chaos theory deals with the order that arises, and the implications are that all that we perceive may well have been the result of naturally occurring harmonies. Listen to an audio tape of the sounds of earth recorded from a satellite, what one hears is a chaos of sound. Listen quietly and harmonies appear and disappear, this is chaos in action. If indeed the universe is a singularity divided into/composed of infinity, that could be represented numerically:

-infinity .... -10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 ...+infinity

To begin, add one to one whilst also subtracting 1 from 1 -- the result zero, nothing, is a theoretical concept, as nothing cannot exist(however in math it cannot be ignored), and seems indicative of the mind that sees division not unity. As below - so above, what we may observe as human beings is that the universe is indeed made up of particles to which we have attached positive and negative attributes. For example the atom has positive, negative, and neutrally charged particles. So one may 'theorise' that the self existent universe which needs no cause to exist as it is impossible for there to be nothing so there must be something and this is it http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) This something must be a singularity for there cannot be nothing/non-existence therefore there can only be existence as term indicated as a singularity.

This singularity is expressed as an eternal infinity because there can be no other and therefore there can be no boundary, all universes, all of existence whether in this universe or in parallel universes is 'one'. Being infinite, it is shown by math and nature how that 'one' thing seems divided into many apparently negative, positive, neutral/balanced aspects. Chaos theory explains how in a field of negatives and positives electricities are created, these electrical currents arc in triangular patterns. Try this take a piece of paper, draw a circle, then draw a chaos of intersecting lines in triangular patterns within the circle. See how patterns appear? This pattern is remarkably similar to human brain neurology, once more as below - so above.

For myself, the realisation that comes with the stopping of thought(yes it is possible even though you have not experienced it) and the place one finds is empty yet full, empty of thought, therefore form, yet full - on account of the awareness. It probably sounds bizarre but when one experiences that state of awareness and realises that one is the presence, that the mind is able to cognise infinity. The connection one has to the infinite, ultimate reality, call it what you will, is thru one's own mind, thru total awareness. This state cannot be described as it is without thought, therefore words cannot be formed to describe it.

Anyone may experience it with practice. Here's as an example: Focus on your senses, all of them, try to feel, smell, touch, see, hear everything in the one moment.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

0 is not a theoretical concept, if I have 0$, money does not appear to fill the viod. Niether does negetive money (assuming im not in debt) Also nothing exists in a true vacume. So no 0 is a very real concept. If you think it is impossible for nothing to exist then you probibly just over think to the point your making things up. Other than that I see what your saying.

Also one can stop thought in meditation, so although difficult and not long lasting, you should not assume your the only person to have done this. It is quite bizare and leaves one very very relaxed. I never heard of your method and I'm too tired to try it now. Interesting though.

[b]Edit: I would like to hear the sounds of earth from space. If you could post a link that would be awesome. Never heard of that before.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-04-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

0 is not a theoretical concept, if I have 0$, money does not appear to fill the viod. Niether does negetive money (assuming im not in debt) Also nothing exists in a true vacume. So no 0 is a very real concept. If you think it is impossible for nothing to exist then you probibly just over think to the point your making things up. Other than that I see what your saying.

Also one can stop thought in meditation, so although difficult and not long lasting, you should not assume your the only person to have done this. It is quite bizare and leaves one very very relaxed. I never heard of your method and I'm too tired to try it now. Interesting though.

[b]Edit: I would like to hear the sounds of earth from space. If you could post a link that would be awesome. Never heard of that before.



How can the sounds of Earth be heard from space? Space has no sound.

To Redzed, what is it in my idea of things that you come to conflict with?

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

0 is not a theoretical concept, if I have 0$, money does not appear to fill the viod. Niether does negetive money (assuming im not in debt) Also nothing exists in a true vacume. So no 0 is a very real concept. If you think it is impossible for nothing to exist then you probibly just over think to the point your making things up. Other than that I see what your saying.

Also one can stop thought in meditation, so although difficult and not long lasting, you should not assume your the only person to have done this. It is quite bizare and leaves one very very relaxed. I never heard of your method and I'm too tired to try it now. Interesting though.

[b]Edit: I would like to hear the sounds of earth from space. If you could post a link that would be awesome. Never heard of that before.



Yes I did mention that 0 was important in math, and hence with money as well, but to grasp the concept in relation to existence is different to there being a vacuum or no money - it is the total absence of anything. You may have zero dollars, but there is still a large amount of money in use. Take space for example, it may be a vacuum to our senses and yet if one observes the night sky and takes an area, say a cubic metre of that empty space, and observes that the total energy of all the stars we see shining thru that cubic metre is actually passing thru the vacuum, it is clear that vacuum contains the energy of the light passing through it. There's some interesting scienctific theory on this, and the energy swirls, dark matter and dark energy.

How does it even make sense to say nothing exists?

Regarding my assuming no-one else has experienced the state of emptiness of thought or fullness of awareness, I was referring to Abrahim, and his statement to me that it was not possible to stop thought http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I'm well aware that this is nothing new, nor unique to my own experience and yes it seems bizarre, perhaps because it is impossible to explain, one has to experience it.

The tape of the sounds of the earth I heard was played at a seminar(however a google search turned up plenty of websites). In the seminar we were asked to lie down, relax, lights were turned low and the tape played. It made quite an impression, beautiful, chaos of sounds with harmonies coming and going, sometimes it would sound like a symphony of bells, then a distant choir, then somthing else. The harmonies eventually faded back into the chaos to be replaced by a different rythm.



Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

How can the sounds of Earth be heard from space? Space has no sound.

To Redzed, what is it in my idea of things that you come to conflict with?

Surprised you have to ask? Perhaps it's a way of avoiding answering the questions?

I don't feel I'm in conflict with you, we differ in our understanding, so what? That does not mean I don't respect your right to your belief, however when you try to foist that belief on this forum it seems proper to question those parts that seem to be nonsense. To date you have failed to engage in a meaningful dialogue with any of your questioners. Have you actually given thought to those you communicate with? Do you not think we may be earnest in our quest for truth and understanding? Do you think somehow those who question you are inferior in knowledge or experience, intelligence or sophistication? Yet you seem to treat those who are not able to accept your views as being somewhat retarded and subject us to longwinded posts of cut and pasted Kran threatening us with eternal torment if we don't believe as you do. What if one honestly cannot believe in your God? What if one simply cannot grasp the concept, because of for example - your poor communication, or another reason beyond one's control?

And regarding"How can the sounds of Earth be heard from space? Space has no sound." How is it you think you know everything? Is it because you have not experienced it thus it does not exist?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Surprised you have to ask? Perhaps it's a way of avoiding answering the questions?

I don't feel I'm in conflict with you, we differ in our understanding, so what? That does not mean I don't respect your right to your belief, however when you try to foist that belief on this forum it seems proper to question those parts that seem to be nonsense. To date you have failed to engage in a meaningful dialogue with any of your questioners. Have you actually given thought to those you communicate with? Do you not think we may be earnest in our quest for truth and understanding? Do you think somehow those who question you are inferior in knowledge or experience, intelligence or sophistication? Yet you seem to treat those who are not able to accept your views as being somewhat retarded and subject us to longwinded posts of cut and pasted Kran threatening us with eternal torment if we don't believe as you do. What if one honestly cannot believe in your God? What if one simply cannot grasp the concept, because of for example - your poor communication, or another reason beyond one's control?

And regarding"How can the sounds of Earth be heard from space? Space has no sound." How is it you think you know everything? Is it because you have not experienced it thus it does not exist?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I do believe that I read the posts of my questioners and then I respond with writing long winded posts in response to various things they brought up then they tell me that I'm just copy pasting non sense and ask me to answer their questions when I feel I have!

Why do you put "Namaste" at the end of your posts if you don't believe in what I believe in? Namaste is a reference to the same concept as the one I speak of, the one some call non sense!

Namaste means any of the following:

"In a religious context this word can be taken to mean any of these:

The Spirit in me meets the same Spirit in you.

I greet that place where you and I are one.

I salute the divine in you.

I salute the Light of God in you.

I bow to the divine in you.

I recognize that within each of us is a place where Divinity dwells, and when we are in that place, we are One.

In other words, it recognizes the equality of all, and pays honor to the sacredness and interconnection of all, as well as to the source of that interconnection. Namaskar is the term for such greetings, and is also used as a greeting itself."

Found in Hinduism which believes:

"brahma (nominative singular), brahman (stem) (neuter[1] gender) means the concept of the Supreme transcendent and immanent Reality or the One Godhead or Cosmic Spirit in Hinduism; this is discussed below. Also note that the word Brahman in this sense is exceptionally treated as masculine (see the Merrill-Webster Sanskrit Dictionary). It is called "the Brahman" in English."

also

"Ishvara, or the Supreme God (lit., Supreme Lord), which may be completely identified with the Supreme Truth Brahman, as by the Dvaita philosophy, or partially as a worldly manifestation of the Brahman having (positive) attributes."

Do you believe in any of the above? Why do you say Namaste, what do you mean by it?

You guys should make a new thread this one is drastically off topic.

Sound waves can't be sent through space, because they need a medium to travel through.

If by sounds from space signals from radio/microwave/etc coming from earth could be interpreted as sound could it not? They could translated this into sound waves (it wouldn't be hard) and it would be quite chaotic.

As for 0 not existing, I don't know what that has to do with religion. Thats almost philosophy as opposed to religion. I suppose it would be more than possible for nothing to have existed at one time. See string theory about the big bang. Thats just one theory coming from the string theory but it is an interesting non-religous explaination. Remember it is just a theory though.

Also a link to that meditation chaos music would be appreciated. Thanks.

On the otherhand none of this has to do with this thread or religion.

Most of what is being discussed is unrelated to this thread. So maybe make a misc thoughts thread or another meditation thread?

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-04-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

You guys should make a new thread this one is drastically off topic.

You're right, way off thread, but it seems theophany has bailed?

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Sound waves can't be sent through space, because they need a medium to travel through.

If by sounds from space signals from radio/microwave/etc coming from earth could be interpreted as sound could it not? They could translated this into sound waves (it wouldn't be hard) and it would be quite chaotic.

It was at a seminar and that is how I recall it being introduced, as the sounds of earth from space, whatever. Likely was radio/microwave translated to music, same effect -- order from chaos.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

As for 0 not existing, I don't know what that has to do with religion. Thats almost philosophy as opposed to religion. I suppose it would be more than possible for nothing to have existed at one time. See string theory about the big bang. Thats just one theory coming from the string theory but it is an interesting non-religous explaination. Remember it is just a theory though.

Understanding of the impossibility of nothing existing establishs a base, a factual premise from which one may then investigate weighty questions like God etc. How is it possible for nothing to exist, ie absolutely nothing? Is it not an oxymoron to say nothing could exist? If nothing exists or in your terms "I suppose it would be more than possible for nothing to have existed at one time." If it has, or may have had, existence is it not something?

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Also a link to that meditation chaos music would be appreciated. Thanks.

Can't give you the one I heard, however here's a link: http://www.auroralchorus.com/sndbites.htm

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

On the otherhand none of this has to do with this thread or religion.

Most of what is being discussed is unrelated to this thread. So maybe make a misc thoughts thread or another meditation thread?



You're right in that it has nothing to do with this thread{apparently abandoned by Theophany? sorry if we hijacked your thread theophany http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)}, but it does have everything to do with religion, perhaps we could take this over to the other thread Abrahim?

Yea I dunno this thread kind of died because theophany hasn't responded to a lot of things people said, she is picking and choosing and doing so very infrequently.

Theophany, I want you to find in the Potentgirt thread on the first page where I posted my story and under it my statements about Christianity being Blasphemy and then I would really appreciate if you answered back to my claims.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Theophany, I want you to find in the Potentgirt thread on the first page where I posted my story and under it my statements about Christianity being Blasphemy and then I would really appreciate if you answered back to my claims.



I'll give you her answer if you really can't figure out by now what she is going to say:

The christian God is real and is greater then reality, therefore it is not blasphemy.

While she can not back up her claims, there is at least a book written up about them (albeit full of obscenities and 2000 years old) whereas you simply claim that because these atoms exist they must be worshipped and respected as 'God' except that reality exhibits none of the characteristics of all other definitions of 'God.' Dude, just admit that you're an atheist.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



I'll give you her answer if you really can't figure out by now what she is going to say:

The christian God is real and is greater then reality, therefore it is not blasphemy.

While she can not back up her claims, there is at least a book written up about them (albeit full of obscenities and 2000 years old) whereas you simply claim that because these atoms exist they must be worshipped and respected as 'God' except that reality exhibits none of the characteristics of all other definitions of 'God.' Dude, just admit that you're an atheist.

Its just that I don't say worship the atoms, but what the atoms exist within, not the universe, but what the universe exists within, not your perception, but what allows for your perception, the ultimate God! Feel free to contribute to potentgirts debate about God and my Theories if you wanna!

Now people are speaking from me. Wonderful. Abrahim, I have chosen to set you on the side being that I haven't followed anything you've written. My main focus began with Rust, who has left, and now is After Image. Maybe I'll go back and read through what you said, but right now I hardly have time to answer one person's questions let alone more.

After Image, I think we are failing to define the arguement. (Please don't call this rhetoric because it's not- its more of organization.) At the beginning you listed some things you wished me to address. I feel I covered them. You called my information biased. Now, if this is the case then I can no longer discuss with you. Because credibility to you only equals Nasa and the like. If a creationist can't develop and support creationism in your eyes then that makes any information I bring you fruitless.

I haven't left. You've yet to answer anything I've said. I'm patiently waiting for you to reply.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

You called my information biased. Now, if this is the case then I can no longer discuss with you. Because credibility to you only equals Nasa and the like. If a creationist can't develop and support creationism in your eyes then that makes any information I bring you fruitless.

You make it sound like calling someone's sources biased is equivalent to calling them a name. It's like calling something purple- it's not mean, just true.

Look Lauren, you can show us a thousand creationist sites that say creationism is true, but no one will take you seriously.

Pro-creation sites are obviously biased towards creation.

You may say that science is biased toward evolution, but that's not true, and we have reasons.

First and foremost, science has no agenda and no infallible doctrines they have to fall under, so they are free to research anything and have no reason to, say, doctor data or post false things.

More importantly though, it's not like science jumped all over this. They didn't leap up and say "Awesome! We finally have a theory that can discredit those darn religious folk and create a secular state! Yay!"

The real response was doubt, laughter, and a lot of resentment for even proposing it. Do you know who discovered evolution? A very conservative creationist. He was so conservative that he denied what he had found for as long as he could. Eventually, though, he had to admit what he had found because he could no longer deny what was right in front of his eyes.

So, like I said, scientific sources are unbiased, and if creationism has the evidence it is said to, and is still a viable theory, then scientific journals would be publishing the papers.

This is a series of video seminars on Creationism http://www.creationministries.org/seminars.asp

Theophany, I believe what I brought up in this topic is far more important than what Rust or anyone else has brought up. My questions dealing with the religious beliefs of Christianity rather than the small issue of Creationism vs Evolution, because if Evolution Existed, God created it, simple as that, right? So messing around with that and trying to prove creationism is silly as we are here already.

I will Repost my statements to you:

To Theophany and All Christians: Please Read the Following with an Open Mind, Do not Close your eyes or ears or mind or heart to this, this is for your life, be wise.

Christianity promotes OPEN Blasphemy against the Sublime and Supreme nature of the One God. They say God came to Earth as a Man, God is in the image of Man, God had a Begotten Son who is Him, God is 3 in 1, God was a baby, God had a Mother, God died, The blood of Jesus forgives the sins of all people, etc.

Firstly, God is One, One whole, Essentially God is all there is and ever was, God is here there and everywhere within without you are dependant on it.

Secondly, God is not a man, nor is God in the image of Man, Men are not the Children of God, God does not have Children, Men are Men, they are part of God, existing within God and only By God.

Thirdly, Jesus is not a God, Jesus was in the image of a man because he was a man, I do not believe Jesus ever claimed to be God or the son of God despite what the New Testament invents about him. Jesus was a man, born as a baby, grew into age, he was a part of God as much as a tree or a grain of sand, he was no more than a human, he brought the people a message, the message was ignored as it is now.

Fourthly, Blood does not forgive sins, nor does someone ELSE dying, the Jewish tradition of Scapegoat does not apply, it was the tradition to kill a lamb or goat and forgive the sins of a village, Jesus is called the Lamb of God for this reason, to say that the death of something can forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness is a blasphemy, Jesus is not a Savior, No man can save another man, we can only save ourselves, we are our own saviors, it is up to us to communicate with the Supreme God and ask for forgiveness, there are no intermediaries, Jesus Jonas Jack and Jill can not forgive you, not by dying, not by living, not by anything, they have no power, to God is all the power.

Christians would be wise to CEASE and DESIST in the promotion of BLASPHEMY against the ONE GOD by inventing LIES about the NATURE of GOD and REALITY.

Science should have no conflict with the True God, The True God is where all things inside and out of this universe came from.

Do not be Stubborn, You are wise enough to understand that there is a God, you should be wise enough to accept the true nature of God and not to BLASPHEMY repeatedly about the SUPREME AND ULTIMATE Nature of God.

Their arguments are to make you lose God, Do not Lose God, God is not what you have been imagining or inventing in your imagination, nor is God a man or a woman or a thing created, God is infront of you at all times, open your eyes and see, you are living God, existing because of God, and it is to God you return. There is no Escape, Jesus is nothing but a man and a servant of God, one who submitted himself and accepted the Truth, he made no claims to divinity, he was not a Blasphemer, Cease and Desist.

They can break your idols, so break your idols for them, God is not an Idol, nor does God have an image, but all images are within God.

You are not the Children of God, you are the Creation of God, God in all majesty and wonder manifested you, and developed you slowly, and this earth, and evolved you, Do you not see the intricacy and beauty, will you not submit to the Reality of which you are completely dependant?

God is the originator of all things, Do not say that God did not Create some things, God manifested all things, existing and non existing, seen and unseen, known and unknown, there is NO creator but God, all men can do is manipulate what they have available, invent what is possible, the possibilities provided and manifested by God.

Drop the Blasphemous Book, the New Testament, Which Invents lie after lie about God and Jesus. You do not lose God by dropping a book full of blasphemy, Go on a journey to find the truth, or come to me and I will show you the truth, abrahimesker@hotmail.com on MSN, abrahim_esker@yahoo.com, abrahimesker on AIM.

There is one Religion and there has always been one Religion, with One God, and man repeatedly mutates it into something new, go to the root and it is one truth.

For the sake of your own being, and for your own benefit in this life and the next, cease and desist in uttering blasphemy about God with little knowledge and understanding, you are only harming yourself by promoting blasphemy, God is far beyond what many invent, but God should not be beyond understanding, God is apparent for those who choose to see, and that is a minority.

There is no Being in the Sky that is Worthy of Worship, the only worthy of Submission is the One God, Not some man in an alternate dimension but the Ultimate Reality which holds your very existance and the existance of all things with all might. All Power Belongs to God. God is not 3, God is One, Nor does God have 3 parts, If you will make divisions, then Divide God for all God's innumerable aspects, and All that is within God. God is One, Reality is One, All is One, Submit.

I am not a promoter of an Evil Word, I am not a servant of blasphemy, I wish for you to Cease and Desist in Blasphemy, if you have even a fraction of good and sense in you, you will see what I am saying as the truth. I am not Satan or the Enemy of God or Jesus. I am the enemy of Blasphemy.



(LATER ON I ASKED ANOTHER CHRISTIAN SOMETHING)

I do have a question for Christians: You don't find concepts such as God the Almighty all Powerful Originator of all things beyond humans to have a "begotten" son to be a blasphemy?

begotten

adj : (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child"

That is to imply in some way God is like a man that he has a son rather than a more superior statement like God is Far Beyond what people claim. You don't find that such things as a son to be degrading to the all powerful SELF SUFFICIENT God?

Then other concepts such as Jesus descending to Hell? Why would Jesus go to hell?

Furthermore statements such as "Mother of God". You don't find such a statement Blasphemy? God is not a man, God is not a Father, God is not a Son, God does not have Children, God does not have a Mother, God is not a human being.

Why would God need to incarnate as a baby, eat, bleed, urinate, and more to die on the behalf of OTHERS responsibility? Does this make sense when God is All Powerful?

Every man and woman on Earth is responsible for their own sins, they have to ask forgiveness themselves and not to a Son, but to God, who is ever present.

God Incarnating into a single thing? God is everywhere in everything, everything is made of God and completely dependant on God.

Some explain it like this "Jesus was a sinless and perfect man thus the incarnation of God as God too is perfect" without understanding, GOD IS NOT A MAN, NOR IS GOD IN THE IMAGE OF MAN. God is the Originator of everything, Self Sufficient all things are completely dependant on God. God is what we exist within, not a MAN within the Universe, or a Being somewhere, But the very thing we are made of and exist within.

God was always there, before the universe, after the universe, God is essentially all there is and ever was and will be. God has no Mother, God is not Created, God is the Creator.

Jesus is a Man. Every single thing from a toilet to a thought to a planet in space is the "Incarnation" of God as it is made of God, Part of God, Existing within God the Infinite.

To say God is some Being within the Universe, To say God has a Form, to say God has a Body, to say God is a Father, to say God has a Mother, to say God is a Son is all Blasphemy. To say God is 3, when God is One, is Blasphemy.

To say "We drink the blood and eat the body of Jesus Christ the Son of God" is a Blasphemy.

Now I hope you're truly a man of a religion, a seeker of truth, a believer in God. I hope the understanding is somewhere in your mind that what I'm saying is true, and how what many people say is utter blasphemy against the glory and supreme purity of God.

Do you think that letting go of blasphemy will suddenly mean there is no God? God is the Reality you exist within, believe it or not, it is there, present, and you are dependant. Purchasing Error at the Price of Truth is your loss only, and you don't have to do it.

Is God incapable? Is Gods "hand" tied? God has a Son to do his work? God has a Messenger to give the Message, and Jesus was one of them, and how did they corrupt and twist his message.

Bow to God and God alone the Supreme, your Creator. Do Right and Good for yourself and YOUR benefit, You can not Harm or Hinder God, You can not Benefit God, it is for you to do Right. There is no Battle nor enemy to God, God is beyond, sublime, supreme, all are dependant. There is no Heavenly Battle between Good and Evil, there is only the daily battle to make the right decisions for your benefit and reward.

If you're a Christian I want to talk to you on MSN Messenger at abrahimesker@hotmail.com if you don't have that then AIM at abrahimesker or Yahoo at abrahim_esker please!



(I GOT A SMALL RESPONSE THEN SAID)

The Lord your God is not a man, is far beyond having children. It was men who invented a lie against God to say that he has begotten a son, and a blasphemy that they utter from their mouths and convince good people like yourself of an evil word, for the Lord your God is Supreme Exalted, Far Beyond having a Son and the idle inventions of Man.

Do you think God is some sort of being that has children and then sacrifices those children for the sin of an ant?

To everyone is their own responsibility to God, and no sacrifice can save you, but it is for you to pray and ask forgiveness of the Lord Your God.

Jesus was a man, born miraculously through his virgin mother, just as Adam was created with no father, Jesus was the creation of God, a man, who taught the message to the people to Worship and Submit to the One God. Not the 3 Gods, not the 6 Gods who are one, THE ONE GOD.

Who is the One God? The One God goes by many names. What are its aspects?

It is the supreme, the exalted, the mighty, the all knowing, all seeing, all experiencing, all, the mightiest, the controller of everything, the knowledge, the reality we exist within, the reality which all realities exist within and are completely dependant on and made of, our creator, our originator, NOT OUR FATHER, GOD IS NOT A MAN, NOR DOES GOD HAVE CHILDREN, NOR DOES GOD HAVE A MOTHER OR FATHER.

Creating false idols in the name of God, naming them God, illusions and inventions, false and untrue. There is one God, Ever Present, Closer to you than your blood and veins, it is not Jesus, it is not your Father, it is God, the One.

Mary was a wonderful woman, righteous and upright, she was not a blasphemer, nor would she make claim as a Queen or that she is the Mother of God, nor will praying to her accomplish anything, she is a human woman, she is no longer living.

Jesus was a wonderful man, righteous and upright, he was not a blasphemer, nor would he make claim as a God, for only God is the True King and Ruler, Provider of all things. Jesus was the servant of God, devout, one who had submitted.

No man or beast can die for the sins of another, but it is for you to ask for forgiveness, God does not demand blood sacrifice, this is the invention of men, the creation of God, who will be punished in hellfire, for the lies they invented against God.

What happened to the ressurection? Souls flying around like ghosts? This is a Greek concept. You will die, it will be like sleep, you won't know you are dead until you wake up, it could be a million years but it will feel like a day that you have slept, and the day you will wake is Judgement Day, when all that you have sent forth, will be shown to you, and sent back on you, when HUMANS, NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD, BUT HUMANS will be sorted out, some will be punished, some will be rewarded, there is no Limbo and there never was a Limbo, God is Pure and Everything was set before the creation of this Universe.

God is not a man nor in the image of man that he has children, sons, daughters, God is far superior to the devices of humans. God is everywhere, in everything, everything is made of God, there is no division.

You are the creation of God, like a tree, or a rock, or an ant, God has blessed you with many things to be thankful for, but God is not your Father, God is your Master, Your Ruler, Your King, Your Creator, Your God.

What is the conflict? What is it you are holding on to that you will blasphemy against God: The New Testament? It is not written by Jesus, the Book of Jesus is Gone now: Though there is a book with rightness, reason, understanding that does not blasphemy against God. http://messenger.msn.com Please download that and talk to me on there at abrahimesker@hotmail.com

This isn't a joke nor am I fooling around with you, this is serious, about your mind, your life, your soul.

(EARLIER I HAD SAID)

I do have a question for Christians: You don't find concepts such as God the Almighty all Powerful Originator of all things beyond humans to have a "begotten" son to be a blasphemy?

That is to imply in some way God is like a man that he has a son rather than a more superior statement like God is Far Beyond what people claim. You don't find that such things as a son to be degrading to the all powerful SELF SUFFICIENT God?

Then other concepts such as Jesus descending to Hell? Why would Jesus go to hell?

Furthermore statements such as "Mother of God". You don't find such a statement Blasphemy? God is not a man, God is not a Father, God is not a Son, God does not have Children, God does not have a Mother, God is not a human being.

Why would God need to incarnate as a baby, eat, bleed, urinate, and more to die on the behalf of OTHERS responsibility? Does this make sense when God is All Powerful?

Every man and woman on Earth is responsible for their own sins, they have to ask forgiveness themselves and not to a Son, but to God, who is ever present.

God Incarnating into a single thing? God is everywhere in everything, everything is made of God and completely dependant on God.

Some explain it like this "Jesus was a sinless and perfect man thus the incarnation of God as God too is perfect" without understanding, GOD IS NOT A MAN, NOR IS GOD IN THE IMAGE OF MAN. God is the Originator of everything, Self Sufficient all things are completely dependant on God. God is what we exist within, not a MAN within the Universe, or a Being somewhere, But the very thing we are made of and exist within.

God was always there, before the universe, after the universe, God is essentially all there is and ever was and will be. God has no Mother, God is not Created, God is the Creator.

Jesus is a Man. Every single thing from a toilet to a thought to a planet in space is the "Incarnation" of God as it is made of God, Part of God, Existing within God the Infinite.

To say God is some Being within the Universe, To say God has a Form, to say God has a Body, to say God is a Father, to say God has a Mother, to say God is a Son is all Blasphemy. To say God is 3, when God is One, is Blasphemy.

To say "We drink the blood and eat the body of Jesus Christ the Son of God" is a Blasphemy.

Now I hope you're truly a man of a religion, a seeker of truth, a believer in God. I hope the understanding is somewhere in your mind that what I'm saying is true, and how what many people say is utter blasphemy against the glory and supreme purity of God.

Do you think that letting go of blasphemy will suddenly mean there is no God? God is the Reality you exist within, believe it or not, it is there, present, and you are dependant. Purchasing Error at the Price of Truth is your loss only, and you don't have to do it.

Is God incapable? Is Gods "hand" tied? God has a Son to do his work? God has a Messenger to give the Message, and Jesus was one of them, and how did they corrupt and twist his message.

Bow to God and God alone the Supreme, your Creator. Do Right and Good for yourself and YOUR benefit, You can not Harm or Hinder God, You can not Benefit God, it is for you to do Right. There is no Battle nor enemy to God, God is beyond, sublime, supreme, all are dependant. There is no Heavenly Battle between Good and Evil, there is only the daily battle to make the right decisions for your benefit and reward.

Theophany if you can manage to read the above post without skimming and answer to those points it would be appreciated, I find that what I'm questioning hits at the heart of the religion rather than a small side point such as Creationism.

Why should we re-title reality god and worship it like barbaric people? Why must we worship anything at all?

Evolution has done more for humanity than religion ever will; religion causes nothing but division, ignorance, and stagnation of humanity.

Let’s get on with our lives and spend our time doing something we enjoy instead of pointlessly worshipping reality or some deity that is not real.

Scientific sources are unbiased? Bah! Everyone has a motive for the work they do. Whether it be to prove that there is evidence of God or to prove there is evidence against it. Maybe it is to prove a theory or to give them purpose. Everything is biased. Truth is not. Therefore do not argue that something is biased, use discernment and see if it is true. I could discredit and atheist scientist because he wants to prove evolution and is biased in doing so, but if he presents facts then how can i deny it even if it is biased? Therefore keep motives out of this. They dont matter. The truth is what seems to be important to you so LOOK. Maybe it points to God or maybe it points to evolution. People seem to have found both but there is only one truth. I myself have found that the Kalam arguement

Everythign that begins to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

The universe has a cause

Is very convincing in and of itself. Though there are others. Yet i will admit the Holy Spirits testimony is all i need to believe and therefore if the facts go against it i will remain in my faith, that does not change the facts, so stop argueing motive. Look at the facts, that is all that should be needed, even if they present something that you do not like.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

but if he presents facts then how can i deny it even if it is biased?

Yet i will admit the Holy Spirits testimony is all i need to believe and therefore if the facts go against it i will remain in my faith,

lol

My faith is an intrinsic defeater, I give it more warrant than anything else. That is what I meant by that Ian, therefore even if the facts do go against my faith, it is too personal for me to let go. That should not hinder me from grasping truth though. I can still discern between fact and fiction.

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

Why should we re-title reality god and worship it like barbaric people? Why must we worship anything at all?

Evolution has done more for humanity than religion ever will; religion causes nothing but division, ignorance, and stagnation of humanity.

Let’s get on with our lives and spend our time doing something we enjoy instead of pointlessly worshipping reality or some deity that is not real.

Who is telling you not to get on with your life and spend your time doing what you enjoy?

Religion has given many people a sense of purpose in life and hope in times of trouble, it can be used positively or negatively.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

therefore even if the facts do go against my faith, it is too personal for me to let go. That should not hinder me from grasping truth though.

I can still discern between fact and fiction.

Perhaps....only when it is convenient?

What gets me is that even though over 99% of believers are exactly the same as you, and will deny facts, the irony is that you openly admit this, but then proclaim to the world that you are the source of truth and you always know right from wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Scientific sources are unbiased? Bah! Everyone has a motive for the work they do. Whether it be to prove that there is evidence of God or to prove there is evidence against it. Maybe it is to prove a theory or to give them purpose. Everything is biased. Truth is not. Therefore do not argue that something is biased, use discernment and see if it is true. I could discredit and atheist scientist because he wants to prove evolution and is biased in doing so, but if he presents facts then how can i deny it even if it is biased? Therefore keep motives out of this. They dont matter. The truth is what seems to be important to you so LOOK. Maybe it points to God or maybe it points to evolution. People seem to have found both but there is only one truth. I myself have found that the Kalam arguement

Everythign that begins to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

The universe has a cause

Is very convincing in and of itself. Though there are others. Yet i will admit the Holy Spirits testimony is all i need to believe and therefore if the facts go against it i will remain in my faith, that does not change the facts, so stop argueing motive. Look at the facts, that is all that should be needed, even if they present something that you do not like..

Scientific evidence is subjected to peer review by other scientists. If the evidence were misrepresented or false, it would be proven wrong and disregarded. This process eliminates the bias of which you speak.

The problem with Creationist sources isthat, like you, they disregard the facts and adhere to their beliefs.

Then address this issue, the kalam arguement

Everything that begins to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

The universe has a cause

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Then address this issue, the kalam arguement

Everything that begins to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

The universe has a cause

That is incredibly simple to address.

Electrons jump around in a vacuum completely randomly. They either (a)have a cause which causes something to randomly appear where there is nothing or (b)have no cause and your premise is wrong.

But either way, you're begging the question by assuming what you wish to prove.

The only thing we know of that 'began' to exist was the universe, and we have no idea if it had a cause or not.

You're assuming it did, and then think your argument is correct.

So that's one of the easiest arguments to refute, actually.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Then address this issue, the kalam arguement

Everything that begins to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

The universe has a cause

Let's put it another way http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

Everything that begins to exist has a cause

God began to exist

God has a cause

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Now people are speaking from me. Wonderful. Abrahim, I have chosen to set you on the side being that I haven't followed anything you've written. My main focus began with Rust, who has left, and now is After Image. Maybe I'll go back and read through what you said, but right now I hardly have time to answer one person's questions let alone more.

After Image, I think we are failing to define the arguement. (Please don't call this rhetoric because it's not- its more of organization.) At the beginning you listed some things you wished me to address. I feel I covered them. You called my information biased. Now, if this is the case then I can no longer discuss with you. Because credibility to you only equals Nasa and the like. If a creationist can't develop and support creationism in your eyes then that makes any information I bring you fruitless.

First of all you only directly responded to the universe question, not the others.

Here is the questions originally asked:

quote:I will post what I said in the last post to make it obvious that it in no way has anything to do with evolution.

"Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it.

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This is clearly asking for mathematics behind creationism, proof of how creationion and intervention is possible using physics and mathematics to support your claim.



How the light traveling distances farther than possible in the amount of time given by the creationist model, could occur.



(Nothing to do with evolution)

This is asking for an explanation of how light can travel more light years than it's speed in a vacume allows it to if the creationism idea of the age of the universe is correct

Why the universe is constantly changing and new stars and galaxies are being born at this time if the universe was born in about it's present state 6000 years ago?

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This has to do with why if the universe was created in it's present state 6000 years ago, how could it be changing so much that it would be logical to think it has been changing forever.

Why no non-creationist/non-religous scientific source agrees with your age of the universe?

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This has only to do with scientific integrity. For example why would nasa, and the majority of scientists all over the world have using scientific techniques determined the relative age of the universe that is commonly agreed upon, yet the only people who don't agree and "theologist scientists" who found what they call science based on thier own belief system.

Please answer these questions with the mathematics backing up your responces, and or claims.

Here I am specifically asking for a mathematic equation behind any creationist claims you make

Thank you."

Those are the questions and no, you didn't answer them. If you did please just repost the answer to the question.

As for sources, the sources you listed are from "scientists" who are not credible in the scientific community. I showed proof of this as a scientist was critiqued at that .edu site. You are still more than welcome to present credible evidence for you claim. This does not mean I will not check the source.

You have to understand that if we don't check sources we would believe everything, this is why information from scientifically credible people needs to be presented. This is in no way ignoring you claims, just asking for proof, which has been my request all along.

I personally believe creationism to be flawed. Since it is a major part of christianity it does make one question their blind faith.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Then address this issue, the kalam arguement

Everything that begins to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

The universe has a cause

There are scientific explanations of the universe not involving god or creationism. They are complex but the concepts are fairly simple. String theory is one of these and it does explain in great detail, a great number of things. It is the only theory yet to describe quantum mechanics and general/speacal relativity "peacefully". It is a scientific theory, unlike creationism. It is a theory, just a theory, but I still suggest you look into this.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Let's put it another way http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

Everything that begins to exist has a cause

God began to exist

God has a cause

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

There is no proof of god existing other than people writing about it. You cannot measure or observe god, therefor you have no means to prove or disprove god's existance. Because you base that arguement on something you cannot measure or observe it isn't much of an arguement, basically because god could or could not exist, and there is no way to know.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

There is no proof of god existing other than people writing about it. You cannot measure or observe god, therefor you have no means to prove or disprove god's existance. Because you base that arguement on something you cannot measure or observe it isn't much of an arguement, basically because god could or could not exist, and there is no way to know.

My point exactly, why apply this test only to the universe, why not also apply it to god?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

God has no beginning and no end, and thus this is not, in my belief, the first time the universe has appeared, but I believe it has been big bang, expansion, collapse, since forever as God is what time is within, not the other way around.

Also its true you will never be able to encompass God or all the infinite possibilities, realities, universes within God.

The Universe exists. Something can not exist in absolute nothing, nothing has no capacity to hold or allow anything to happen, absolute nothing has never existed.

The Universe exists within the ripe plain of information and knowledge that is this Reality, I use the word reality but I don't mean perception, I mean it more like the possibilities that are allowed for this Universe including the big bang and all that.

This Reality, in which the Universe is, could be one of an infinite number of others that are completely different or completely the same in all directions, these are encompassed by what I call the Ultimate Reality, which is the top of the top of the top, and I say that it is God.

I disagree there because I think there is no top of the top, I think it is infinite and just keeps going until, maybe, it collapses in on itself and then starts again with another big bang.

But you still haven’t given a reason to call it god and worship it. It’d still be easier to call it “reality”.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

God has no beginning and no end, and thus this is not, in my belief, the first time the universe has appeared, but I believe it has been big bang, expansion, collapse, since forever as God is what time is within, not the other way around.

Also its true you will never be able to encompass God or all the infinite possibilities, realities, universes within God.

The Universe exists. Something can not exist in absolute nothing, nothing has no capacity to hold or allow anything to happen, absolute nothing has never existed.

The Universe exists within the ripe plain of information and knowledge that is this Reality, I use the word reality but I don't mean perception, I mean it more like the possibilities that are allowed for this Universe including the big bang and all that.

This Reality, in which the Universe is, could be one of an infinite number of others that are completely different or completely the same in all directions, these are encompassed by what I call the Ultimate Reality, which is the top of the top of the top, and I say that it is God.

I believe that My God, the Mega Ultimate Reality, is beyond infinity and encompasses your puny reality god and all others like him. All that you percieve your Reality god to be is but a minute portion within the Mega Ultimate Reality that is my God.Your reality god's existance is allowed only as a whim of the Mega Ultimate Reality. Your god is but a worthless speck of dust in comparison to my God, and must submit to and worship the Mega Ultimate Reality, which is the true God of gods.



There you go. My god can beat the shit out of your god. There is just as much evidence available to support my assertions as there is to support yours. The difference is that I am sane enough to realize that none of these assertions/beliefs, neither mine nor yours,are even slightly rational.

Anyone can make unfounded, irrational claims. That does not mean they are true.



[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 07-07-2006).]

The study of your religion is even more a study of nothing then the study of christianity:

-It is founded on nothing

-It proves nothing

-It is of no practical value

-It means nothing

-And it admits of no conclusion.

Your religion isn't anything but a readjustment of terms, and a faulty one at that.

When i say it began,i mean it came out of nothing, not a vacuum, nothing, there were no molecules jumping around, if there was a beginning then it began everything, even if there was a vacuum, it begs the question as well of where did it come from and how does it have the properties it has? If there are these properties, they were set in place before, thus it is not random, and how would a vacuum randomly occur?

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

When i say it began,i mean it came out of nothing, not a vacuum, nothing, there were no molecules jumping around, if there was a beginning then it began everything, even if there was a vacuum, it begs the question as well of where did it come from and how does it have the properties it has? If there are these properties, they were set in place before, thus it is not random, and how would a vacuum randomly occur?

By 'nothing' do you mean no matter? The air around us, to a child, seems empty, it seems like nothing. As to where did it come from, do you mean, matter or existence?

Check out the Hubble space telescope site or similar. Scientific theory is that 80% of the universe is 'dark energy' and the part we are able to perceive(i.e. matter) is only 5%. That means the 70 billion galaxies, with 400 billion suns in our galaxy alone, is but 5% of the theoretical size of the universe. So to a 'childlike' mind 95% of the universe is nothing.

In an infinite universe/reality/existence, is it not logical that there are infinte possibilities, and this existence, though only one of those infinite possibilities, is the only one that can be 'known' by human beings?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

In an infinite universe/reality/existence, is it not logical that there are infinte possibilities, and this existence, though only one of those infinite possibilities, is the only one that can be 'known' by human beings?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Thats what I say!

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

There you go. My god can beat the shit out of your god. There is just as much evidence available to support my assertions as there is to support yours. The difference is that I am sane enough to realize that none of these assertions/beliefs, neither mine nor yours,are even slightly rational.

Anyone can make unfounded, irrational claims. That does not mean they are true.



Just when I was gonna start worshipping Mega Ultimate Reality you went and burst the bubble!

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

In an infinite universe/reality/existence, is it not logical that there are infinte possibilities, and this existence, though only one of those infinite possibilities, is the only one that can be 'known' by human beings?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



It is quite logical.

The question is: would it be logical to worship and submit to unknowable possibilities,as Abrahim would have us do?

First of all, Abrihim, I didn't read a word of that long post. (I'm sorry.)

This is my note of resignation.

I'm through... it's to much. I'm not coming back to read what you say because I already know. The framework of this dialogue is futile. I'm sorry but nothing productive seems to be coming from this.

Here comes comments on Christians... ignorance... etc.

I was foolish to think that you might listen.

Hopefully one day you will accept the Holy Spirit more then you accepted me. God Bless.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

First of all, Abrihim, I didn't read a word of that long post. (I'm sorry.)

This is my note of resignation.

I'm through... it's to much. I'm not coming back to read what you say because I already know. The framework of this dialogue is futile. I'm sorry but nothing productive seems to be coming from this.

Here comes comments on Christians... ignorance... etc.

I was foolish to think that you might listen.

Hopefully one day you will accept the Holy Spirit more then you accepted me. God Bless.

</annoying self-righteous monolouge>

It's not that we didn't listen, didn't 'accept the holy spirit' or 'accept god' or 'open our minds.'

It's that we reviewed the evidence and think christianity is not true.

Ok?

You're not some holy righteous truthful crusader in a sea of ignorant stone-hearted atheists.

We're not bad or cold; we're just reasonable, and by evidence christianity isn't reasonable to believe in.

You weren't foolish to think we would listen to you, and what you actually mean by that is to accept everything you say even if there is no evidence and it is an unreasonable belief.

So if that's what you expected us to do, then yes, it was foolish for you to think that.

It just irks me that when christians lose debates, they try to pawn it off on being our faults for not 'accepting god' or 'opening our hearts.' Seriously, you lost the debate because there was no evidence, and we are not christian because (we think) it is an unreasonable belief. That's all.

And finally, I enjoyed debating you (the few times you answered me) and I hope you have a nice life (if you are leaving these forums for good). If not I'll see you around.



[This message has been edited by IanBoyd3 (edited 07-08-2006).]

Evidence is given in many areas, therefore you must not be looking at all of it. I find many for Christianity even though there are some against it. History for example, gives us a clear account of Christ. He is mentioned in secular and christian sources. It was also very recent compared to many historical documents. The earlies manuscripts of the new testament date to 45 AD, though the first new testament persay is dated to about 145 AD. The writers also kept to very factual writing. The places and people mentioned all lived and were real. The writers themselves had no need to lie, they desired to walk upright. Therefore, the history itself provides plenty of evidence.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Evidence is given in many areas, therefore you must not be looking at all of it. I find many for Christianity even though there are some against it. History for example, gives us a clear account of Christ. He is mentioned in secular and christian sources. It was also very recent compared to many historical documents. The earlies manuscripts of the new testament date to 45 AD, though the first new testament persay is dated to about 145 AD. The writers also kept to very factual writing. The places and people mentioned all lived and were real. The writers themselves had no need to lie, they desired to walk upright. Therefore, the history itself provides plenty of evidence.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Historical novels make use of real historic figures. Noone calls it factual writing because of this. It is still fictional.

There's no evidence that the gospels aren't more than historical novels. The writers of such stories, have no desire to lie of course, because their intention is to tell a story. A careful examination would show you that it's nowhere near to being factual.

Also read this : http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel.html

Theophany couldn't handle the heat...You guys Toasted her, or rather Totsed!

Theophany, its not fair that you came here debating, they had their minds closed, but you should've had YOURS opened.

Think about what is true and what is not true, God has never asked you to believe in matters against evidence, furthermore, evolution does nothing to discredit God, you wouldn't lose God just because God made animals evolve? I don't know why you would need to defend creationism.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:



It is quite logical.

The question is: would it be logical to worship and submit to unknowable possibilities,as Abrahim would have us do?

Well sure it might sound silly to submit yourself in a meditative fashion to Reality and the grandness of it all, but I think it is effectively humbling, and brings a great sense of peace and understanding, connectivity and size ratio.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



This is my note of resignation.

If I trully believed that the soul of these individuals was up for judgement - if I actually believed that these people might suffer for an eternity because of their blasphemous beliefs -- I wouldn't rest until they took Jesus Christ as their saviour; not even if there was only a 0.01% chance that they'd actually convert towards Christianity.

The fact that you're willing to give up so easilly when so much is as stake, just shows how either you're not aware of what is at risk (from a Christian perspective), or don't actually believe deep down in what you're saying.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

First of all, Abrihim, I didn't read a word of that long post. (I'm sorry.)

This is my note of resignation.

I'm through... it's to much. I'm not coming back to read what you say because I already know. The framework of this dialogue is futile. I'm sorry but nothing productive seems to be coming from this.

Here comes comments on Christians... ignorance... etc.

I was foolish to think that you might listen.

Hopefully one day you will accept the Holy Spirit more then you accepted me. God Bless.

You totally failed to answer the simplest questions and avoided them. I even asked if you could answer them, or already had answered them (even though you only tried to answer too and only one answer was relevant to the question, and your sources were discredited by the scientific community) you could repost the answers to the questions.

I think YOU'RE not listening to yourself. You claim your on a persuit of truth but if what your saying is not true then we are in some way bad?

Gotta stay light hearted through the storm Theophany.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



This is my note of resignation.

I'm through... it's to much.

Feather in your cap for having the guts and decency to bow out publically, at least. A lesser poster would have just dropped out unceremoniously without so much of a word.

Do I need to name names?

Dear friends,

Theophany has resigned, so do not bash her if she is not here. That seems low and uncalled for. I am also sure that none of you here are actually scientists, therefore all of this information is second hand and subject to scrutiny. Mine as well. Elfstone .... the Bible was not written as a historic novel, the intention of the writers and even their writing style was factual. Paul did not write fictional letters to the churchs of ephesus or corinth or antioch lol that would be ridiculous. And seeing as how paul claimed that Christ had risen as well there is no point in saying that the Bible was a hisoric novel. It was indeed a very accurate piece of history. The letters of paul were the earliest writings of the first churchs. There were also the church fathers, but they came later. The fact that the new testament can be dated to about 140AD and that the authors were writing a history of a real man and they had witnessed this mans ressurection, is simply astounding. This also would validate the man's claims to Godhood and this would show that Jesus was God and man and spoke truth.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Dear friends,

Theophany has resigned, so do not bash her if she is not here. That seems low and uncalled for. I am also sure that none of you here are actually scientists, therefore all of this information is second hand and subject to scrutiny. Mine as well. Elfstone .... the Bible was not written as a historic novel, the intention of the writers and even their writing style was factual. Paul did not write fictional letters to the churchs of ephesus or corinth or antioch lol that would be ridiculous. And seeing as how paul claimed that Christ had risen as well there is no point in saying that the Bible was a hisoric novel. It was indeed a very accurate piece of history. The letters of paul were the earliest writings of the first churchs. There were also the church fathers, but they came later. The fact that the new testament can be dated to about 140AD and that the authors were writing a history of a real man and they had witnessed this mans ressurection, is simply astounding. This also would validate the man's claims to Godhood and this would show that Jesus was God and man and spoke truth.

Paul was not present at the Ressurection of Jesus, nor was Paul a witness to Jesus: Furthermore Paul has been known to give up Jewish law (to the displeasure of some) in order to convert large groups of people. (History Channel said it lol)

Paul was said to have been visited by Jesus in a vision.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

...

There were also the church fathers, but they came later. The fact that the new testament can be dated to about 140AD and that the authors were writing a history of a real man and they had witnessed this mans ressurection, is simply astounding. This also would validate the man's claims to Godhood and this would show that Jesus was God and man and spoke truth.

That is if you can accept the trustwothiness of said "church fathers" and the Roman Catholic church that decided which books were to be included in the bible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

There is a well known saying from the bible "By their fruits you shall know them", and I wonder how anyone could trust the Roman Catholics with the historical record of their fruits. http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

For example: http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Why is it that everyone thinks the Catholic Church decided what books were in the bible? The cannon was developed way before then and the new testament was already floating around. The Catholic Church was simply the combining of the Christian Church.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Why is it that everyone thinks the Catholic Church decided what books were in the bible? The cannon was developed way before then and the new testament was already floating around. The Catholic Church was simply the combining of the Christian Church.

The Council at Nicea is a super important part of Christian history which anyone interested in learning about the religion needs to read about.

The basis for everything in the christian church is that you have to believe all the guys writing the bible and all the guys who then choose those books were divinely inspired, as opposed to just a bunch of regular guys going about making a new religion just like the millions of other regular guys who have made religions throughout time.

God does a terrible job of reinforcing this belief. The bible is riddled with contradictions, and while this doesn't totally disprove divine inspiration, inerrancy would be one of the good ways for God to prove that. Creationism was wrong. Of course, a lot of people claim that it was just a metaphor, but so did the people from that cult which claimed the world was ending. When it didn't, they said it actually did, just metaphorically. Yea sure.

Fundamentalism is on the rise and reason is on the run. If armageddon is coming like the religious cooks say (and even are trying to bring about) then this is surely the way to get there.

"The basis for everything in the christian church is that you have to believe all the guys writing the bible and all the guys who then choose those books were divinely inspired, as opposed to just a bunch of regular guys going about making a new religion just like the millions of other regular guys who have made religions throughout time.

God does a terrible job of reinforcing this belief. The bible is riddled with contradictions, and while this doesn't totally disprove divine inspiration, inerrancy would be one of the good ways for God to prove that. Creationism was wrong. Of course, a lot of people claim that it was just a metaphor, but so did the people from that cult which claimed the world was ending. When it didn't, they said it actually did, just metaphorically. Yea sure.

Fundamentalism is on the rise and reason is on the run. If armageddon is coming like the religious cooks say (and even are trying to bring about) then this is surely the way to get there." IanBoyd3

A: There is historic evidence of these people and places. There is also the fact that they wrote it in a factual manner. If you notice... the synoptic Gospels are not written in a fictional manner. And why is it that these men can not be historians or are unable to write a valid biography? Christianity differs from any other religion in the world.

Show me contradiction that you have found and I will answer them to the best of my ability. Give me proof of Creationism being wrong.

I have not seen this rise, nor have I seen reason run from my beliefs. That is neither here nor there. The end of days is not important for we will all die and face judgement. When it happens it happens. Christian groups concerned with this indeed have the wrong concern.

the bible is full of fictional earmarks! people observing things when nobody or only one person is supposed to be present is common.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

"The basis for everything in the christian church is that you have to believe all the guys writing the bible and all the guys who then choose those books were divinely inspired, as opposed to just a bunch of regular guys going about making a new religion just like the millions of other regular guys who have made religions throughout time.

God does a terrible job of reinforcing this belief. The bible is riddled with contradictions, and while this doesn't totally disprove divine inspiration, inerrancy would be one of the good ways for God to prove that. Creationism was wrong. Of course, a lot of people claim that it was just a metaphor, but so did the people from that cult which claimed the world was ending. When it didn't, they said it actually did, just metaphorically. Yea sure.

Fundamentalism is on the rise and reason is on the run. If armageddon is coming like the religious cooks say (and even are trying to bring about) then this is surely the way to get there." IanBoyd3

A: There is historic evidence of these people and places. There is also the fact that they wrote it in a factual manner. If you notice... the synoptic Gospels are not written in a fictional manner. And why is it that these men can not be historians or are unable to write a valid biography? Christianity differs from any other religion in the world.

Show me contradiction that you have found and I will answer them to the best of my ability. Give me proof of Creationism being wrong.

I have not seen this rise, nor have I seen reason run from my beliefs. That is neither here nor there. The end of days is not important for we will all die and face judgement. When it happens it happens. Christian groups concerned with this indeed have the wrong concern.

HERE ARE SOME CONTRADICTIONS FROM THE BIBLOS OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW!

http://islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I swear I won't condemn everyone on this forum to hell or thump you with the Bible. I just am interested in discussion. I realize that I'm completely outnumbered- all I ask is that you are willing to intelligently search for truth with me. Isn't that the purpose of a debate anyways? I'm afraid this will come off incredibly pretentious and I'm sorry if it does. I suppose I just wanted to introduce myself to totse, and pray to GOD that I don't drown.

My opening topic for discussion is how Christianity affronts you. What has my faith done that would create so much animosity? I’m not completely ignorant to the churches falsehood and error. I just ask that you don’t judge a faith by the religion established around it. I promise that I will do the same to not judge your own beliefs.

-Lauren

eh, long story. but what i do want to talk about is how old you are, because you may know a friend of mine in Lees Summit http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

"The basis for everything in the christian church is that you have to believe all the guys writing the bible and all the guys who then choose those books were divinely inspired, as opposed to just a bunch of regular guys going about making a new religion just like the millions of other regular guys who have made religions throughout time.

God does a terrible job of reinforcing this belief. The bible is riddled with contradictions, and while this doesn't totally disprove divine inspiration, inerrancy would be one of the good ways for God to prove that. Creationism was wrong. Of course, a lot of people claim that it was just a metaphor, but so did the people from that cult which claimed the world was ending. When it didn't, they said it actually did, just metaphorically. Yea sure.

Fundamentalism is on the rise and reason is on the run. If armageddon is coming like the religious cooks say (and even are trying to bring about) then this is surely the way to get there." IanBoyd3

A: There is historic evidence of these people and places. There is also the fact that they wrote it in a factual manner. If you notice... the synoptic Gospels are not written in a fictional manner. And why is it that these men can not be historians or are unable to write a valid biography? Christianity differs from any other religion in the world.

Show me contradiction that you have found and I will answer them to the best of my ability. Give me proof of Creationism being wrong.

I have not seen this rise, nor have I seen reason run from my beliefs. That is neither here nor there. The end of days is not important for we will all die and face judgement. When it happens it happens. Christian groups concerned with this indeed have the wrong concern.

Nice try. You're the one making the claim, you have to prove creationism is false, just so you know. If someone claimed to invent an anti-gravity machine, they could not win the nobel prize just because no one could prove they didn't.

I actually can prove creationism wrong very easily though.

We can see the light from stars more than 6,000 (or 12,000..) light years away.

Disproving evolution doesn't prove creationism either, just so you know.

I would like to ask you finally, are you a genesis 1 creationist or a genesis 2 creationist? The stories are logically incompatible and can't be reconciled, so I'd like to know which side you are on.

I gave a whole list of contradictions above and you said you would prove they arent contradictions!