I swear I won't condemn everyone on this forum to hell or thump you with the Bible. I just am interested in discussion. I realize that I'm completely outnumbered- all I ask is that you are willing to intelligently search for truth with me. Isn't that the purpose of a debate anyways? I'm afraid this will come off incredibly pretentious and I'm sorry if it does. I suppose I just wanted to introduce myself to totse, and pray to GOD that I don't drown.

My opening topic for discussion is how Christianity affronts you. What has my faith done that would create so much animosity? I’m not completely ignorant to the churches falsehood and error. I just ask that you don’t judge a faith by the religion established around it. I promise that I will do the same to not judge your own beliefs.

-Lauren

1) The Geologist's Come-All-Ye (a folksong) by Brenna Lorenz

Come all ye lads and you will hear

About the life that we love dear,

Refrain: With our diddle-air-re-oh, falling rock away, knock it down,

Fall-di-knock-a-rock-away, me laddie-oh!

Geologists all bold and strong,

We are the subject of this song.

We get up with the rising sun

And map until the day is done.

We walk two hundred miles a day,

And study rocks along the way.

We fight our way through brush and trees

And slog through bog up to our knees.

When flies are thick, then we don't walk,

They carry us from rock to rock.

We swing our hammers with a whack,

Take home an outcrop on our backs.

Nine hundred pounds of rock or more

Is just an average daily score.

If we run out of food to eat

There's always rock beneath our feet.

There's nothing quite like granite stew

'Though graptolites are some good, too.

In the evening to the clubs we flock,

To drink Dominion and Old Stock.

Here's to your health and our health, too,

May your life prove as good to you,

As our...

Lauren, do you have MSN Messenger, AIM, or Yahoo Messenger? I want to talk to you one one of those, preferably MSN! Please!? Thank You!

First, welcome to the forums. I see you're from Lee's Summit. I'm from Springfield myself, so not that far away.

Second, regarding my own personal animosity towards Christianity, I used to be a Christian. I was raised in a fundamentalist AoG/Baptist household, and bought into most Christian doctrine myself up until early this year (I'm 20). If you find that hard to believe, you can do a search on my username in this forum and there's probably still some threads in which I tried to argue for Christianity. I carry animosity towards Christians because I feel that they duped me. They duped me and they dupe themselves and each other, and their goal is to pursuade the world to surrender reason. To 'have faith' instead.

At the same time it saddens me. I look at Christians so steadfast in their faith. They say "I'm not going to let the devil tempt me! I know god exists! I can feel him! I can't imagine my life without him!" Holding onto faith in spite of contrary evidence is considered virtuous to Christians. It isn't virtuous! It's ignorance! But I remember I once thought that way. If there is such a thing as miracles, it is a miracle I was ever able to wake up and see what Christianity really is. Christianity binds people in shackles of guilt. Everyone is guilty of sin. We are all worthy of nothing but eternal damnation. Thank god's son (who is also, somehow, a part of god) for dying for a few days so that all of us wretched, evil sinners can go to heaven and worship and praise the great and mighty god forever and ever.

Blech...

So that's why you may (or already have) felt animosity towards Christianity from me. If you're curious (or have the guts) to inquire about what provoked my apostacy, feel free to ask. You claim you want the truth. Let me tell you...the truth hurts, but at the same time, it sets you free. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

edit: Abrahim, you punk! I emailed you a day or two ago. Want to talk to everyone but the E-Man, eh? http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 05-30-2006).]

1) A Century of Carnage

2) Intellectual Sloth

3) If It Weren't For the Judaic Faith I would Have My Foreskin, And Christianity Came From Judaism

4) Refer To #2

Those are the blanket problems I have with Christianity. If you wish for me to explain any of them, I would be happy to.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

First, welcome to the forums. I see you're from Lee's Summit. I'm from Springfield myself, so not that far away.

Second, regarding my own personal animosity towards Christianity, I used to be a Christian. I was raised in a fundamentalist AoG/Baptist household, and bought into most Christian doctrine myself up until early this year (I'm 20). If you find that hard to believe, you can do a search on my username in this forum and there's probably still some threads in which I tried to argue for Christianity. I carry animosity towards Christians because I feel that they duped me. They duped me and they dupe themselves and each other, and their goal is to pursuade the world to surrender reason. To 'have faith' instead.

At the same time it saddens me. I look at Christians so steadfast in their faith. They say "I'm not going to let the devil tempt me! I know god exists! I can feel him! I can't imagine my life without him!" Holding onto faith in spite of contrary evidence is considered virtuous to Christians. It isn't virtuous! It's ignorance! But I remember I once thought that way. If there is such a thing as miracles, it is a miracle I was ever able to wake up and see what Christianity really is. Christianity binds people in shackles of guilt. Everyone is guilty of sin. We are all worthy of nothing but eternal damnation. Thank god's son (who is also, somehow, a part of god) for dying for a few days so that all of us wretched, evil sinners can go to heaven and worship and praise the great and mighty god forever and ever.

Blech...

So that's why you may (or already have) felt animosity towards Christianity from me. If you're curious (or have the guts) to inquire about what provoked my apostacy, feel free to ask. You claim you want the truth. Let me tell you...the truth hurts, but at the same time, it sets you free. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

edit: Abrahim, you punk! I emailed you a day or two ago. Want to talk to everyone but the E-Man, eh? http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



I'VE BEEN WANTING TO TALK TO THE E-MAN SINCE HE FIRST SHONE HIS SHINEY LIGHT UPON THE SKY OF EARTH AND FOREST BLUE! But which email did you send it to?! Do you gots AIM, MSN, Yahoo?

abrahimesker , abrahimesker@hotmail.com, abrahim_esker

E-Man, what offended you about our AIM convo! Did you block me!? I didn't mean to offend you!

Dude, you're an ass, Abrahim. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

edit: Don't waste you're time talking to Abrahim. He just fucks around with you. Acts like a serious poster on the boards; acts like a 12 year old kid on IM.

quote:E-Man, what offended you about our AIM convo! Did you block me!? I didn't mean to offend you!

Bullshit. I asked you a straighforward question and you first acted like I had mistaken you. Then you mocked me. The you typed some incomprehensible nonsense while I was trying to make out what you were saying. Then I said I was starting to get pissed and you mocked me some more. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)



[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 05-30-2006).]

He can be entertaining, though.

Springfield, aye? The big question now is Chiefs or Rams… answer wisely if you want to keep my respect.

It’s difficult to discuss your apostasy of the Faith unless I know your beliefs on the Bible. I am certain that you no longer accept the Word in It’s entirety. Yet, as a basis for our dialogue it is imperative that we have a point of reference in which to discuss. Therefore, what is your take on the Bible?

“They duped me and they dupe themselves and each other, and their goal is to pursuade the world to surrender reason. To 'have faith' instead.”

Easy there, remember don’t judge my faith on the religion built around it. In the past the Vatican or the organized church has made errors in their attempts to lead others to Christianity; their motives not always being sincere. Yet, in the pure essence of our once shared faith there is no brainwashing or prevarication. Reason, that which is a conclusion/justification for an idea is scattered throughout scripture. Romans 1 says, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie,” Most of Paul’s epistles are an apology for the faith. Yet in order to believe anything you must have faith that it is true. Faith can be based on reason. True Christianity calls for the search for truth, the truth of Christ and his purpose. Let us always focus on that. The rest is rhetoric.

“Holding onto faith in spite of contrary evidence is considered virtuous to Christians.”

A wise Christian considers the contrary “evidence.” And is willing to discuss it. That is virtuous. St. Peter writes “Always be prepared to give an answer to the hope that you have. Yet, do so with gentleness and respect.” So many forget the latter message in Peter’s epistle. Christians in general are terrible witnesses and it breaks my heart. It is my hope that I might reverse this stereotype. I hold fast to my faith because I trust it as truth. There is contrary arguments to any faith. I passionately advocate the search for truth. For both of us cannot be right. At least not in this situation. Either Christianity is true or it’s false, it’s that simple.

“It isn't virtuous! It's ignorance!”

Having an educated opinion and being willing to discuss it is not ignorance. Don’t be so open minded that you lose your brain. Is staying steadfast to a faith ignorant? It only is when you do not understand both your viewpoint and the antithesis of it.

“Christianity binds people in shackles of guilt. Everyone is guilty of sin. We are all worthy of nothing but eternal damnation.”

Christianity liberates us from guilt! If we are saved then we are no longer guilty. We are by nature sinful, true, but Christ forgives us. Isn’t that the gospel message?

:So that's why you may (or already have) felt animosity towards Christianity from me. If you're curious (or have the guts) to inquire about what provoked my apostacy, feel free to ask. You claim you want the truth. Let me tell you...the truth hurts, but at the same time, it sets you free.”

Truth is my passion. I have the guts, :flexes: to continue this discussion. Please, enlighten me with the truth.

Thank you for responding,

-Lauren

p.s I may not respond tomorrow. (Art Studio) I promise I will reply as soon as possible.





[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 05-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

What has my faith done that would create so much animosity?

Your faith is a disgusting belief system in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.

It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".

Elephantitis Man -- Log back into AIM (if that's what you were using). I added you.

^ How did you get my AIM username?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 05-30-2006).]

quote:Christianity liberates us from guilt! If we are saved then we are no longer guilty. We are by nature sinful, true, but Christ forgives us. Isn’t that the gospel message?

In theory, yes. But in practice, those Christians who have problems with stopping their "sinning" whether it be something sexual (homosexual feelings, masturbation, etc) or drugs (alcoholism, other addictive drugs) it can cause a cycle of guilt and asking for forgiveness, and general feelings of worthlessness. I had it happen to me, and it's happened many times in history (think The Scarlet Letter), so don't tell me it doesn't happen.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

^ How did you get my AIM username?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

I'll tell you on AIM. Don't worry, I'm not going to harrass you or anything.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Dude, you're an ass, Abrahim. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

edit: Don't waste you're time talking to Abrahim. He just fucks around with you. Acts like a serious poster on the boards; acts like a 12 year old kid on IM.

E-Man, what offended you about our AIM convo! Did you block me!? I didn't mean to offend you!

Bullshit. I asked you a straighforward question and you first acted like I had mistaken you. Then you mocked me. The you typed some incomprehensible nonsense while I was trying to make out what you were saying. Then I said I was starting to get pissed and you mocked me some more. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)





Hehe don't be mad! Everyone gets slightly different interactive experiences with Abrahim! I didn't know you wanted me to be Sober Serious Abrahim! My day is filled with humor! What was the question you wanted to ask me!? I didn't mean to mock you lol I was just taking parts of your name!

Here is our convo: (See its not that bad! Cheer up! I'll be all manly and sober if you want me to be!)

elephantitis man: heya you there? :-(

AbrahimEsker: HEYA Why sad face?!

elephantitis man: No response. :-) This is E-Man

AbrahimEsker: OMG OHHHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYYYYYYYY GASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSs *cramps* ITS THE E-MAN

elephantitis man: :@

AbrahimEsker: THE FRICKEN E-MAN IS HERE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

elephantitis man: 8-)

AbrahimEsker: *flashes pictures screams for autographs*

hatepirate0: Hahaha. Do you do alot of instant messaging with totseans?

AbrahimEsker: ya before I was a member of Totse, most totse members from HB and SG knew me

elephantitis man: How?

AbrahimEsker: well one day, a long time ago I met a guy from Totse named lance randomly I dont know how and little by little I gathered such an army of Totseans that the WORLD said "Wow dat kule an lot of pupple"

elephantitis man: hahaha

AbrahimEsker: hahahaha

elephantitis man: So how long have you been a Muslim?

AbrahimEsker: WAZAT?! A Mozlme?!

elephantitis man: I thought you were Islamic? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

AbrahimEsker: HOLY DAMN I WAS ABOUT TO THROW UP THESE LITTLE KITTENS OUTSIDE WERE EATING PU!

elephantitis man: <.< >.> *begins to slowly walk away*

AbrahimEsker: lol man oh man oh man :-*about to throw up :-*oh man...oh man...

elephantitis man: :-I

AbrahimEsker: O:-)OHHH...OHHH ARGARHAGRAHRAGRGAGGAR :-P k dun so ya

elephantitis man: :-,

AbrahimEsker: WHATCHA GOIN ROUND CALLIN ME AN ISMALIKIK FOR!?

elephantitis man: I'm going to be frank...you're starting to piss me off.

AbrahimEsker: lol uh oh the E-man pirate of Hate numba zero is getting Pissed! why?!http: //smg.phot obucket.co m/albums/v 295/Abrahi m_Esker/MS %20PAINT%2 0POLITICAL %20COMEDY/?action=view¤t=Hitler1.jpg thats something I drew in ms paint

Previous message was not received by elephantitis man because of error: User elephantitis man is not available.

AbrahimEsker: hi

Previous message was not received by elephantitis man because of error: User elephantitis man is not available.

(The hate pirate thing is in reference to something in his real AIM name, I didnt mean to offend you!)

SO ANYWAY MAN! IF you want me to be all drastically serious rather than playful and nymph like (12 years old aprox) then fine, shall we try again?!

I often respond jovially to things, here check this other convo I had on AIM just before yours:

flir: Forgive the childish screen name- it was made when I was in junior high and I've been to lazy to change it.

flir: I'm theo.

AbrahimEsker: hiyaaa lol childish!? I like it! heheh howaya?

flir: I'm fine, and you?

AbrahimEsker: fine too!

flir: I have found that you're of the Islamic faith? I recently finished studying Islam in my comparative religions class.

AbrahimEsker: really?! That's cool! I think I could qualify as alot of religions! I answer questions about Islam and I'm a huge fan of the book "The Qur'an"

flir: I have my notes here with me on the Koran.

AbrahimEsker: Have you studied Hinduism, Bhuddism!?

flir: both

AbrahimEsker: WOWZA how about Satanism? LeVeyan and Regla?

flir: You ask this because..

AbrahimEsker: Just wondering! if it was in the class I guess they dont go down that road lol how about Zoroastrianism? ah its ok, so how do you spend most days?

flir: well it's summer now- so basically catching up on reading

AbrahimEsker: whatcha reading!?

flir: Jane Eyre

AbrahimEsker: cool, likey?

flir: yes. I'm going to respond to a totse post brb

AbrahimEsker: k So what are your beliefs?! You announce yourself as a Christian on the forum! But from what I can tell, many people who claim to be Christian, are each following and believing in their own version sort of, so what are your unique and specific beliefs?!?!?!? ?!?!? when you get back

flir: I'm Lutheran

AbrahimEsker: hows that? I mean whats the difference between other groups?

flir: we believe that we can not earn our salvation

flir: it is through Christ

AbrahimEsker: kule hows that work?

flir: the wages of sin is death he died on the cross forgiving our sins now when God looks at us he sees christ in us

AbrahimEsker: oops

Previous message was not received by flirtygrl3 because of error: User flir is not available.

(SEE?! NO HARD FEELINGS MAN! IT JUST TAKES SOME GETTING USED TO! BUT IF YOU NO WANT IT, WE CAN TALK SERIOUS TOO!)



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-30-2006).]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Abrahim has some issues?

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

Does anyone else get the feeling that Abrahim has some issues?

*raises hand*

because i don't condone human sacrifice and cannabilism.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

*raises hand*

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Score dude.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



Easy there, remember don’t judge my faith on the religion built around it. In the past the Vatican or the organized church has made errors in their attempts to lead others to Christianity; their motives not always being sincere. Yet, in the pure essence of our once shared faith there is no brainwashing or prevarication. Reason, that which is a conclusion/justification for an idea is scattered throughout scripture. Romans 1 says, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie,” Most of Paul’s epistles are an apology for the faith. Yet in order to believe anything you must have faith that it is true. Faith can be based on reason. True Christianity calls for the search for truth, the truth of Christ and his purpose. Let us always focus on that. The rest is rhetoric.

Yea I mean we can't possibly judge Bush by how much he has fucked up the world. Fortunately we have the media to ask the real important questions about the president, like in their pre-election race polls- "Which candidate would make a better drinking partner?" Which is, of course, the obvious thing to base your vote on.

quote:



“Christianity binds people in shackles of guilt. Everyone is guilty of sin. We are all worthy of nothing but eternal damnation.”

Christianity liberates us from guilt! If we are saved then we are no longer guilty. We are by nature sinful, true, but Christ forgives us. Isn’t that the gospel message?



=Kicking someone to the ground, then expecting thanks for helping them up

Christianity declares that we are all evil and horrible people and invents this concept of 'sin' which we were automatically born with, must commit by definition because God created us as imperfect sinners, and must commit certain sins because everything that happens is part of God's plan, yet at the same time this is somehow our faults.

Christianity then makes up a set of rules and rituals that we must follow (big fucking suprise there) and follows suit with all other religions since the beginning of time. They also say that yea, there will be no evidence, this won't make a lot of sense, it is all based on faith which isn't really a virtue and is morally irrelevant, but it will make you feel good, and special, and give you something to look forward to after you die, and give people hope.

Based on the faith itself there are more then enough reasons to discredit it- even ignoring the crusades, the witch hunts, and the inquisition which lest we forget were possibly the worst, bloodiest, most brutal things in all history, and the people doing it actual believed they were superior and righteous the whole time! Although, don't forget the holocaust, which was led by a christian (Hitler) and was anti-semetic, that the church did not stop or speak out against, and to this day will not reveal their records of exactly what the church knew and talked about during that time, and why nothing was done.

This religous self-rightousness that caused all these horrible travesties is something I see very alive today. It is not quiet as venomous, but still irks me. You can see it clearly and painfully if you read some of Digi's posts, or if you visit creationist websites. You know, people who like to think of themselves as being the virtuous ones, standing against these evil atheists who all have agendas (the truth...) and that you are meant to bring God's message to these poor people and so on. They will very often assert how they are right and how everyone else is wrong and how others are being arrogant or biased. They always assume, by the way, that the people against them are just biased against religion and that they themselves, who have faith without evidence, and have invested their lives in a book being true, have no bias at all. I don't see this in you, lauren, at least not yet, but still.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Your faith is a disgusting belief system in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.

It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".



/\Exactally. It also cost me a very hot gf. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Your faith is a disgusting belief system in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.

It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".

I think we have a winner.

About the torches? Thats ironic. I'd be much more worried about one of you burning a non-believer intellectual type, than a non-believing intellectual type burning you. History shows your church to be the people burners.

Personally speaking christians tend to force their religions on other people, as much as they can short of physical threats (other than hell). Just look at Intellegent Design. It is not science. It is theology claiming to be science. If you think it is science then respond to this, it is something posted a debate that the christians "debating" avoided: "Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it." I will say again it is not science if it does not meet that criteria. This deceptive double standard has to end. Christians tend to do whatever nessessary to make people believe. Can you blame people for thinking negetively of you considering your religion's tendancys? The bible has hundreds of inconsistancies, people pass the religion off as science to try to convince people it is the only correct religion, you scare people into believing with threats of hell, the list goes on. Christians make the same mistakes as other religions but believe themselves to be more self rightous and morally correct. It has a tendancy to annoy people to see and understand what is happening.



On the otherhand I have no problem with you as a person and as long as you contribute to totse in a positive way, carry though on your debates admitting when your wrong, and show yourself to be an intellegent person who doesn't post "too long/didn't read".

Welcome to totse! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Your faith is a disgusting belief system in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.

It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".

Your Reality is a disgusting Reality which allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the Universe. Now cry me a river!

Abrahim, Shut the fuck up.

More people have been killed under Christianity's name than have been killed in any war, killed by any disease, or killed by any other belief system. The atrocities conducted in the name of Christianity far out weigh anything you can imagine.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Your Reality is a disgusting Reality which allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the Universe. Now cry me a river!

You're a fucking moron. Do yourself a favor and stop posting all-together or at the very least, be so merciful as to do me a favor and never direct a word at me ever again.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You're a fucking moron. Do yourself a favor and stop posting all-together or at the very least, be so merciful as to do me a favor and never direct a word at me ever again.

lol I think you're a cutey.

And Abrahim loses all respect anyone ever had for him and becomes just another Digital Savour.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

Abrahim, Shut the fuck up.

More people have been killed under Christianity's name than have been killed in any war, killed by any disease, or killed by any other belief system. The atrocities conducted in the name of Christianity far out weigh anything you can imagine.

Humans kill humans, wahh wahh wahh, light a candle.

Christianity is an excuse like any other excuse, but never has a bible taken a machine gun and blown people away, rather, people do it. It is humans, there will always be a human killing another human, there will always be a human dying.

Whats your goal? You want Christians to stop being Christian? Ok, fine, eliminate all religion, people will still kill. This was described in multiple posts on this forum including one called something like "Blaming Religion as Cause of War is Overated" by Crazed Hamster who seems to have been motivated by something I wrote in either "The True Religion" or "What is God".

Yes, but if we get rid of religion we get rid of one of the big causes of murder. The crusades ring a bell?

The Bible does mentally fuck people up. My mum would probably kill me in all seriousness if “god” told her to.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Humans kill humans, wahh wahh wahh, light a candle.

Christianity is an excuse like any other excuse, but never has a bible taken a machine gun and blown people away, rather, people do it. It is humans, there will always be a human killing another human, there will always be a human dying.

Whats your goal? You want Christians to stop being Christian? Ok, fine, eliminate all religion, people will still kill. This was described in multiple posts on this forum including one called something like "Blaming Religion as Cause of War is Overated" by Crazed Hamster who seems to have been motivated by something I wrote in either "The True Religion" or "What is God".



You fail on two accounts, buddy. You fail first and foremost as a compassionate human being. The nonchalant attitude you have about the slaughter of human life is ridiculous.

The other is that you fail to see the relevance of what I said. I never said Christianity caused more wars, you stupid piece of shit. I said more people have been killed in the name of Christianity. I would accept your lack of understanding about my intentions if, in the original post he hadn't asked what made people hate Christianity.... I told him what makes Christianity hated.

I don't even believe Christianity has caused any modern wars, and so your claim isn't applicable to me. The carnage done in the name of Christ occurred primarily in the 1st and EARLY 2nd century. Corrupt officials, kill and convert campaigns, the eradication of heretics. It is all closely related to this religion steeped in blood.

Your lack of compassion, your ignorance, and your ill-placed assumptions all fuel my hatred for you.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:



You fail on two accounts, buddy. You fail first and foremost as a compassionate human being. The nonchalant attitude you have about the slaughter of human life is ridiculous.

The other is that you fail to see the relevance of what I said. I never said Christianity caused more wars, you stupid piece of shit. I said more people have been killed in the name of Christianity. I would accept your lack of understanding about my intentions if, in the original post he hadn't asked what made people hate Christianity.... I told him what makes Christianity hated.

I don't even believe Christianity has caused any modern wars, and so your claim isn't applicable to me. The carnage done in the name of Christ occurred primarily in the 1st and EARLY 2nd century. Corrupt officials, kill and convert campaigns, the eradication of heretics. It is all closely related to this religion steeped in blood.

Your lack of compassion, your ignorance, and your ill-placed assumptions all fuel my hatred for you.

Don't be a hayta mayn. Da crusade may have used Crustaceanity as an eksuse but it was real about controllin da trade and taxation of da hoyl lend. Y u kal me nemz man? we not bodyz? Wut Reljun doesn't haf blud on its nem? Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Bhuddism, people not following its principles but instead killing in its "name", those are still people killing, those wars weren't actually about the religion or the ideas but about the control of resources, taxation, tribute, money, powa, all that jazz we still fight for, nothing has changed, we can still use religions as excuses though.

No need to get so angry. I might seem to lack compassion, Bhuddists might also seem to be unemotional, maybe some Stoics too...Try to stop death and the horror, you can't, you'll never be able to, so why whine and cry about it, just do the best you can for yourself and those around you buddy!

We're both circumsized man, we can be minusforeskin buddies!

At least DS acted respectfully, spoke with proper english, and backed up her claims. Abe is an idiot with the intellectual capacity of a field mouse.

quote:Originally posted by anton_skater:

At least DS acted respectfully, spoke with proper english, and backed up her claims.

That's utter bullshit. She doesn't back up her claims and talks down to people. Check out the "origins and civil liberties" thread.

I haven't been on this forum for a while, however back in the day she provided evidence (Whether biased or not, that is open for interpretation). She may talk down and judge people, but so does everybody else on here. I'm not neccesarily defending her, however the fact that she at least acts like an adult in her speech puts her a step above abe.

edit: "not"

[This message has been edited by anton_skater (edited 05-31-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by anton_skater:

I haven't been on this forum for a while, however back in the day she provided evidence (Whether biased or not, that is open for interpretation). She may talk down and judge people, but so does everybody else on here. I'm neccesarily defending her, however the fact that she at least acts like an adult in her speech puts her a step above abe.

hay! no wunder i've been trippin! I nevur noticed da stepz!

I don't mind that you're a Christian. But if you start ranting on about how evil Islam is like DS does, even though your own religion has commited far worse crimes, I get pretty annoyed.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

I don't mind that you're a Christian. But if you start ranting on about how evil Islam is like DS does, even though your own religion has commited far worse crimes, I get pretty annoyed.

Ya and so does da devul kuz he made Islam and dat make him r33l angy in da pant hoof fur thingz...

Profile for Abrahim

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Date Registered: 05-13-2006

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Total Posts: 422

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Homepage: www.geocities.comhumoraobscura (http://www.geocities.comhumoraobscura)

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Location: Hawaii

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I'm gone for twenty-four hours and there is a galore of responses. Give me a few hours to organize my thoughts.

By the way, to those who swear or use Ad Hominem attacks on my faith- I no longer respect your opinion. I have learned that it is futile to discuss anything with someone with so much hatred that they can't see past their own preconcieved notions. If you want to discuss something- do so with gentleness and respect, as I intend to always treat you.

Ian Boyd- “Yea I mean we can't possibly judge Bush by how much he has fucked up the world.”

First of all, don’t swear. If you have spent any time studying history a foul mouth gets you absolutely nowhere in an educated discussion. The greats of conversation are perfectly capable of expressing an opinion without using vulgarities. I think you will find your opinion will be received much better if you eliminated using words such as “fuck” and “shit.” Secondly, you completely missed my earlier point. THINK THIS OUT WITH ME. Are you accustomed to thinking? Is it truly fair to judge anything entirely on the way a radical part of it’s community relates to society? For instance, I do not judge Islam on their fundamentalist groups and practices of Jihad. So to don’t judge Christianity by idiots such as Fred Phelps and the Catholic churches actions in history. That would be both inaccurate and narrow-minded. If you take the time to consider what I’m saying then you might realize that my faith is not as affronting as you originally believed it to be.



“Christianity declares that we are all evil and horrible people and invents this concept of 'sin' which we were automatically born with, must commit by definition because God created us as imperfect sinners, and must commit certain sins because everything that happens is part of God's plan, yet at the same time this is somehow our faults.”

Nowhere in Christian doctrine or theology is there a contention that believers in the LORD Jesus Christ are “all evil and horrible people…” This is a gross distortion; an hyperbole. That being said, believers are certainly imperfect, and since they are endowed with free will, have persistently, through the centuries of civilization, proven over and over, their propensity to make choices that expose the true nature of the human condition; let’s for the sake of argument, summarize that as “sin.”

“Christianity then makes up a set of rules and rituals that we must follow (big fucking suprise there) and follows suit with all other religions since the beginning of time. They also say that yea, there will be no evidence, this won't make a lot of sense, it is all based on faith which isn't really a virtue and is morally irrelevant, but it will make you feel good, and special, and give you something to look forward to after you die, and give people hope.”

It would be wise of you to not assume what Christianity teaches since you obviously no very little about it’s dogma. I wouldn’t be as bold to suppose that you know all the tenets of my philosophy. I challenge you to use scripture to validate your previous paragraph. And by scripture I do not mean proof-texts of a single verse taken out of context. Where in the bible does it say “yea, there will be no evidence, this won’t make a lot of sense, it is all based on faith which isn’t really a virtue and is morally irrelevant, but it will make you feel good, and special, and give you something to you look forward to after you die..” I’ll save you some time, it’s not there. How does Christianity make one feel good? Where in scripture is that the aim? Jesus even cautioned that we would be ridiculed and persecuted. (Prime example: totse.com) This website is dripping with anti-Christian sentiments. I think it would make me feel better if I didn’t have a supreme deity to which I am ethically responsible to. Then I could do whatever I wanted. Yet, I have set aside such selfishness and realized that the second you take away truth, morality, and virtue then the world will inevitably fall to chaos and disarray. If everyone fends for his own self, then to whom are we responsible? Where is justice? Where is altruism?

“Based on the faith itself there are more then enough reasons to discredit it- even ignoring the crusades, the witch hunts, and the inquisition which lest we forget were possibly the worst, bloodiest, most brutal things in all history, and the people doing it actual believed they were superior and righteous the whole time!”

The true church does not condone inquisitions, crusades, and witch hunts. My friend, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.

“Although, don't forget the holocaust, which was led by a christian (Hitler) and was anti-semetic, that the church did not stop or speak out against, and to this day will not reveal their records of exactly what the church knew and talked about during that time, and why nothing was done.”

The Holocaust? Are you blaming the Christian faith for the Holocaust? This proves my point that men make choices to be evil. Just because someone stripes a cross upon his breast and pronounces the Christian faith does not in fact make them a Christian. This could be analogous to someone who shops at Pac Sun and considers themselves a surfer in the Midwest. You can wear billabong but that doesn’t mean you’ve seen a billow in your lifetime. So to, an alleged Christian may not actually believe the truth of my faith. That is Christ crucified and his forgiveness. That we can not follow the law for righteousness, but only through him be justified. The rest again, is rhetoric. The sheer pearl and greatness of the Christian faith is Jesus- the Messiah. His followers are flawed, yet he is not nor are his teachings.

More to come… be patient. I have a lot to respond to but very little time to do so.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



By the way, to those who swear or use Ad Hominem attacks on my faith- I no longer respect your opinion.

I'm glad we agree. I have little respect for Ad Hominem attacks as well...

quote: Originally posted by theophany:

THINK THIS OUT WITH ME. Are you accustomed to thinking?

Sort of like that one.

[This message has been edited by Iam (edited 05-31-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



The true church does not condone inquisitions, crusades, and witch hunts. My friend, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.





What is this, 'true church' and why do you seem to think it's different than the original Christian orthodoxy: Catholicism? A great deal, in fact, the largest proportion of violence committed under the banner of Christianity WAS condoned by the Catholic Church. Even set in motion by the church. This claim you make about the 'true chuch' is absurd. There is no 'true church' of Christianity, and if there was, it'd be the first: the Catholic Church.

My friend, you must understand that while a belief such as yours in and of itself is neither bad nor good but CAN be used for either, we judge things based upon what they have been used for. As an example, consider a gun. Guns can be used for protection and providing a meal for your family, but they can also be used with malicious intent. Now if a person argues that because of what guns are used for when in the wrong hands, or because in the past there has been a lot of wrongdoing with guns that guns are bad, is he necessarily wrong? No, so whether or no Christianity in and of itself is a violent belief system is beside the point. The factual claims I made earlier ARE factual claims.

[This message has been edited by Iam (edited 05-31-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

If you have spent any time studying history a foul mouth gets you absolutely nowhere in an educated discussion.

Actually I'm pretty sure profanity stems from it's latin meaning which is "outside the church". Some religous (christian) groups used to forbid saying god outside of chuch describing it as profane. Strick religous groups (such as puritans) added to the list words that they saw as things not to be said such as certain words describing sex (fuck) or bodily excretions (shit). Their beliefs have now largly become a standard (as proof look at how swearing is unacceptable in many places such as schools)

If you have spend more time studying history you would know that profanity has nothing to do with intellegence and only with the constructed morals of religion. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

People with tourettes deserve no respect.

*$%*^$ $*)%$)% $*%$()$% Apologies to the $%^#$()* CHEF $)%*#$()

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Actually I'm pretty sure profanity stems from it's latin meaning which is "outside the church". Some religous (christian) groups used to forbid saying god outside of chuch describing it as profane. Strick religous groups (such as puritans) added to the list words that they saw as things not to be said such as certain words describing sex (fuck) or bodily excretions (shit). Their beliefs have now largly become a standard (as proof look at how swearing is unacceptable in many places such as schools)

If you have spend more time studying history you would know that profanity has nothing to do with intellegence and only with the constructed morals of religion. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



history channel!?

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



By the way, to those who swear or use Ad Hominem attacks on my faith- I no longer respect your opinion. I have learned that it is futile to discuss anything with someone with so much hatred that they can't see past their own preconcieved notions. If you want to discuss something- do so with gentleness and respect, as I intend to always treat you.

So you're ignoring people who swear because they "can't see past their preconceived notions"? That's a preconceived notion in and of itself!

Sorry, but those who don't swear can be just as narrow-minded as those who do. To ignore only those who swear would be a preconceived notion itself, the very thing you claim to be against. How ironic.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-01-2006).]

So whats the point and theme of this topic? We're all here. I guess we want you to prove Christianity to us. Explain to us how a man, or God incarnated in a man who was a baby, dying can clear the sins and responsibility of all who do wrong?

Please help all these folks to understand what Christianity is, how it applies to life, and how it is the right decision and the logical one to make.

Here is a convo I had with a Christian, please don't mind but I start screaming at the end and I think a bad word comes in too, but I wanted to share it with everyone. If you can answer better than this fellah, which I'm sure you can, then please do! I take many different sides in arguments so don't hold anything against me!

Red says:

well maybe I should make my views clear haha

I'm a christian, and it is my belief that that is the only true way to heaven and an eternity with God

it's a singular path and the only other path leads to hell

that's my view

- - ->Abrahim says:

and that's a correct view

Red says:

well that's good that you agree

I'm just saying that the qur'an isn't leading people to God, it leads them astray

because it preaches against christ

- - ->Abrahim says:

how does it preach against Christ?

Red says:

it says that Christians are wrong haha

- - ->Abrahim says:

no it doesn't say the Christians are wrong

but what does it say against Christ specifically?

Red says:

it says Allah has no son

and that the trinity doesn't exist

- - ->Abrahim says:

Allah is just the arabic word for God

why does it say that? why does it say God has no son and that the trinity doesn't exist?

Red says:

I don't know why I just know that it does

- - ->Abrahim says:

So it's leading people away from God to say that God is the only one you should worship

Red says:

christianity is the belief that Christ is the messiah and the belief that He died and rose again for the sins of humanity

so anything claiming that didn't happen is leading them astray

Jews are the same way they worship the same God, just not Christ

- - ->Abrahim says:

what does it mean died for the sins of humanity?

Red says:

died to take the place of humans who deserve to die for their sins

people are inherently evil, sinnful, everyone has sinned

and for sinning, we all deserve eternity in Hell separated from God

but God doesn't want this, so he sent Jesus, who is God, and also sinless to die in our place

- - ->Abrahim says:

why did God create us inherently evil? an innocent baby newborn is inherently evil?

Red says:

He didn't create us that way, but He gave us free will

we made ourselves like this

- - ->Abrahim says:

a baby makes itself this way too?

Red says:

newborns and children are too young to make choices for themselves though

- - ->Abrahim says:

oh ok so babies arent inherently evil

Red says:

in a manner of speaking they inevitably will be

- - ->Abrahim says:

so how does this God doesn't want them so he sent Jesus, his son, who is God, to die in our place? So if I kill a pure innocent baby, a sinless one, it will forgive me my sins? Is that how God operates?

Red says:

no, because Christ would never become sinful babies will

they have the nature, but not the ability to change

- - ->Abrahim says:

people have free will but not the ability to change?

Red says:

not when they're babies babies have no ability to repent, they're too young to understand the difference between right and wrong

- - ->Abrahim says:

k but Jesus knew the difference between right and wrong, and he was god, and the son of himself, God, and then he died, but didn't die because he was God and his dying made the sins of all sinners for all time, ok?

Red says:

well he did die then came back to life

and it made the sins of everyone ok, yes

- - ->Abrahim says:

when he died God still lived right?

Red says:

he was a human incarnation of God, but the trinity is really hard to explain haha

He as an incarnation died, the father lived

- - ->Abrahim says:

so a rapist, a murderer, a guy who kills people rapes them urinates on them desecrates them causes pain abuse horror, that's ok because jesus died?

Red says:

if they repent and turn from their ways and belief what he did

- - ->Abrahim says:

why do they have to repent? why do they have to repent if Jesus's death made all sins ok?

Red says:

because it shows they realize that they were wrong

- - ->Abrahim says:

why do they have to realize this? Jesus's death forgave them they don't need to do anything people can do whatever they want, whenever they want because jesus is died for what they do and did for all time

Red says:

He made the sins ok as long as they recognize them to be sins

and if they believe in him, they'll have the conviction not to live that lifestyle

- - ->Abrahim says:

so if I can sin, but I just have to know what I'm doing is a sin, and it will be ok.

Red says:

no you have to be sorry that you sinned or else it's like saying it doesn't matter

- - ->Abrahim says:

what if I keep sinning over and over? why does it matter if I say it doesn't matter? doesnt Jesus forgive that? that it I say it doesn't matter? or doesnt jesus forgive the sin of denying him? or the sin of non repentance?

Red says:

if you recognized that you were sinning by not repenting then you'd have to repent in order to be forgiven

- - ->Abrahim says:

what if you sin and never recognize its sin, accept jesus, Doesn't jesus forgive that too? auto matically with his death?

Red says:

no, you have to accept the forgiveness it's not just automatic

- - ->Abrahim says:

why not? I thought Jesus died for our sins that was the whole point or maybe its Jesus died for the sins that we ask to be forgiven right? so not ALL sins, just the sins way say sorry for

Red says:

he died for all sins but that means nothing if people don't believe it it's like a gift that people refuse to take

- - ->Abrahim says:

and Jesus doesn't like the gift to be refused so they go to hell right? even if they sin its not forgiven

Red says:

if they don't take the gift it's as if it wasn't there

if I gave you something and you refused it, you wouldn't have it

- - ->Abrahim says:

would you set me on fire too?

Red says:

that's what would naturally happen though you have a fate, someone offers to let you change it, and you refuse

then you have the same fate

- - ->Abrahim says:

and who decided this fate and why?

Red says:

we decided the fate by sinning because God is just and He would be going against himself if He didn't deal due punishment for sin

- - ->Abrahim says:

that's CORRECT but asking God for forgiveness is a no no must ask his son who is God and the son or else the forgiveness doesnt happen? The father burns the children the son says "no not these ones, they accepted my blood for their sins so don't punish them even if you are just and going against due punishment would be going against yourself, Dad"

Red says:

not quite; talking to Jesus is talking to God, they're one and the same, and Jesus was a sacrifice for the sin

He paid our dues so we didn't have to and the father was the one that arranged it

- - ->Abrahim says:

according to you we still have to if we deny jesus Jesus didn't pay our dues then, just payed the dues of those who repent and do good who would've not been punished anyway by God because God knows who is good unless God is truly unjust and unmerciful

Red says:

doing good has nothing to do with anything

- - ->Abrahim says:

what? what do you mean? doing good doesnt mean anything?

Red says:

it doesn't mean anything in regards to getting into heaven

it's what God wants us to do but it won't save us or change our fate

- - ->Abrahim says:

oh so I can do good my whole life and God doesn't care what kind of a God is that?

Red says:

a just God one sin merits Hell so you can do good but unless you're perfect, you're not good enought

- - ->Abrahim says:

Justice tempered with Mercy is not the way of GOD?

Red says:

the mercy is Christ offering a way out of our fate so to speak no one can do it by themselves just by being good

- - ->Abrahim says:

so God is not a helper, nor is God with us, if I ask God, I mean God, and I said I'm sorry if I've ever sinned and I will continue to ask for forgiveness and do Good. God will say in not these exact words "Hey punk, you asked me, and not my kid, you did good, but you talking to the wrong Guy, I dont have the power to forgive you, I gave that power to my son, and he dripped blood for you, that was perfect God blood that was dripped and you came asking me, understand that I can't forgive you because you thought I had the power, the power is with my son, my son is me, I'm the father, I came in the form of my son who is me and I am also the holy ghost for special occasions. But anyway, yeah you're going to burn, your good deeds dont mean anything to me, neither does your repentence to me, you shouldve specified your prayers to my son, because my son is me and I'm the father but also the son and the holy Ghost.

Red says:

all of your arguments are based around a misunderstanding of the trinity when you talk to God, you're talking to Christ they're the same

- - ->Abrahim says:

and the holy ghost too they are all one

Red says:

right

- - ->Abrahim says:

just different personalities

Red says:

so to speak

- - ->Abrahim says:

The Father is Justice, The Son is Mercy, the Ghost is Power and Action

Red says:

no, it's not divided like that they're all the same, they're not different incarnations of God, they're all God

- - ->Abrahim says:

but they have to be different incarnations, you yourself said Jesus is the incarnation of God, when Jesus was God, I mean God was Jesus but God didn't stop doing his God activities as the Father, and Jesus refers to himself and speaks to himself as the Father sometimes, and vice versa, but when God was Jesus he didn't stop being God, he had to be in two places at once, 3 actually if you count Casper which is another "Form" of God.

Red says:

yes in a manner of speaking they're different incarnations but I just mean you're taking it too literally

- - ->Abrahim says:

so God would've lied if he said There's only me, only me. Worship me, ask me for forgiveness and mercy, do good.

Rather God says, We am me myself and I, I am my son, my father, my ghost. I want you to do good, but it won't get you anywhere. Good doesn't count, only the bad things you do counts, and if you sin once your flesh is gonna burn, I agree, Me too! Me Three! We're all the same don't get confused, who's confused, God why hast thou forsaken me? Wait, I mean, I am God, Me why hast thou forsaken me I am you formed as son you are my father who is me in heaven and...ok cya in 3 days."

or God could've said, I am God, there is ONLY me, I am Everywhere, I am closer to you than your jugular vein. I am the power that lets things live, I am what deserves worship ONLY, I am what can forgive ONLY, I am One, Eternal. Your Good counts to your Reward, Your Sin Counts towards your Punishment, I am Justice, I am Mercy.

Red says:

it's more of a combination of both minus the sarcasm

- - ->Abrahim says:

but the latter by itself is incorrect?

Red says:

it's correct but more general the first was more specific, although a bit misguided

- - ->Abrahim says:

I don't know how it's misguided the sarcasm was in reference to dialogue between Jesus the son, to Jesus the father as is in the New Testament. Or we could just say SON and FATHER are mistranslations from Greek, which similarly meant Servant and Master, Bondsman and Lord, etc etc but no, that would be crazy. Plus Jesus also said he's the Son of Man, he's obviously not the Son of Man, he's the Son of God, and Son is the same in Greek as being someones apprentice, servant, bondsman, all that but no that doesn't make sense, I think the Good doesn't count, Bad counts, incarnation thing hits the spot

Red says:

both hit the spot

- - ->Abrahim says:

Mary was a sinner? the vessle of Jesus was full of Sin?

Red says:

yes

- - ->Abrahim says:

and saying that is not a blasphemy?

Red says:

not to me, I'm not catholic

I think mary is the same as any other person, just chosen by God to do a job that needed to be done

- - ->Abrahim says:

how could Jesus be pure if he's born out of a sinner ?

Red says:

because sin isn't genetic

- - ->Abrahim says:

what he has her genetics?

Red says:

probably not, she was just a carrier

- - ->Abrahim says:

whose the father?

Red says:

there is no father

- - ->Abrahim says:

good now we're talkin so Jesus was created from scratch right?

Red says:

the human form of him was though jesus himself always existed

- - ->Abrahim says:

you mean God

Red says:

same thing

- - ->Abrahim says:

we know God always existed, but you're saying God and Jesus always existed?

why do you have to define Jesus seperately from God if they are the same thing?

Red says:

in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God

the Word being christ of course I define them separatly because it's specification

- - ->Abrahim says:

in the beginning there was Christ, and the Christ was with God, and the Christ was God

Red says:

yes

- - ->Abrahim says:

what specification? why isnt God just GOD

Red says:

He is, but it's just confusing to people when you refer to God dying on the cross although He did

- - ->Abrahim says:

why is that confusing all of a sudden?

Red says:

it's confusing to some people, especially nonbelievers not to me, but it's easier to refer to the salvation process if I specify

- - ->Abrahim says:

ok there are two options which is more true

God is God, One, You ask God for forgiveness, GOD CAN NOT DIE EVER, God counts Good AND Bad and gives justice tempered with mercy for those who ask

or option two

God is Jesus who came as a human being, but also remained in heaven, and as the holy ghost, good doesn't matter, but bad does, and jesus sacrificed himself for the bad so that people who ask for mercy will recieve it, cause otherwise they wont if he didnt do that because Jesus death made it happen, before Jesus died he wasnt (as God) capable of counting Good or forgiving sin?

Red says:

the second one, besides one flaw before christ died, good did count the law was what determined salvation

- - ->Abrahim says:

after christ died good didnt count?

Red says:

right, because christ fulfilled the old Jewish law

- - ->Abrahim says:

of the scape goat an ancient tradition to sacrifice a lamb or a goat to forgive the sins of the people

so God made himself the lamb and semi sacrificed himself while staying in heaven being ever watchful of himself

then he resureccted himself up to heaven to meet up with himself

Red says:

that's one way to put it yes, and that's what I believe

- - ->Abrahim says:

why?

Red says:

because it just is it's hard to explain

- - ->Abrahim says:

its not hard to explain

Red says:

it's faith, not based on proof

- - ->Abrahim says:

oh faith well yeah faith is something we need in things we cant possibly know such as the future

Red says:

yes I have faith that all of this happened I have no proof of it but I know it's true

- - ->Abrahim says:

you don't feel you've blasphemied alot?

Mary was a sinner, God doesn't care about people doing good he just wants us to do it, God is the Son who has no Father but is also explained as a Father and a Son but are all the same, God killed himself to forgive the sins of sinners when he could've just straight forgived their sins if they asked

Red says:

1. there's nothing wrong with saying mary was a sinner

2. God cares about doing good, but it won't save people from Hell

3. that's the trinity, it's less literal than that

4. God would be going against His nature if He forgave sin without that sacrifice

no blasphemy there

- - ->Abrahim says:

how is there nothing wrong with saying Mary was a sinner, not only did you not meet her, you have no idea, but that just THOROUGHLY offends me someone saying that about a pure woman and a great woman

Red says:

she very well could have been a great woman, she was still a sinner

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

- - ->Abrahim says:

and that doing Good doesn't warrant protection from Hell, you're saying something that's wrong. God does not need sacrifice to forgive a sin, God needs you to stop sinning, repent, and do GOOD.

Red says:

no one can stop sinning completely, it's impossible

- - ->Abrahim says:

I promise you, Mary was NOT a Sinner. I PROMISE God counts GOOD and doing GOOD, Believing, and not doing BAD saves a person from Hell. Lying about God, Good people, prophets, messengers, their families, all that, can't be a good thing! But I guess nothing you say counts as a sin because Jesus died for all these petty little things you might say by mistake

Red says:

what makes I good person? how many good things does it take to make them good?

- - ->Abrahim says:

that they do good and avoid evil, if they make a mistake they repent and try not to again

what kind of INSANE God do you believe in? God is MERCY, FORGIVENESS for those who ASK, no Partners...but I'm the one lying right? lol

Red says:

you're just wrong it's not like an intentional lie

- - ->Abrahim says:

no no, God is not Mercy or Forgiveness, God is Jewish Justice and God needs Blood in order to forgive anything. Right?

yeah thats a SICK God a disgusting blasphemy to what God truly is

Red says:

to what you believe God is I believe in the God of the Bible

- - ->Abrahim says:

they lied about the prophets that Noah a GREAT wonderful man and a believer did incest or got drunk and how many other lies did they make? for a story that caught peoples attentions?

I will guarantee to you, that liars, who blasphemy, with or without knowledge of right, who say bad things about Mary, God, Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Noah or anyone else, without ANY knowledge, or those who appoint God attributes which they invent out of their own insane imaginations when God is Pure and Beyond what ignorant people appoint to him. I guarantee these things, these lies are blasphemy, that God is Pure, that the people are corrupting the message as they usually have, misleading the youth as they always have, and leading them away from the truth. They will get exactly what they deserve

they are NOT hell bound

Red says:

no they aren't not one

- - ->Abrahim says:

and they did not pray to a Man, or believe that God was a Man, formed like a Man, or an IDOL which is what giving God a form is but they did GOOD, if they faltered they asked for forgiveness, and they were bound for Paradise so is Jesus, who is excellent and did not sin

Red says:

Jesus didn't sin because He's God, Mary went to paradise because she believed in Christ, the others went there because they were righteous and followed God's law

- - ->Abrahim says:

and anyone who is righteous and follows God's law will get to paradise. God is not a man, God will not appear as a man on Earth, God is not an ANIMAL, God does not POSESS BODIES, God is GOD, ETERNAL, PURE, INFINITE, He is already ON Earth, IN Earth, Everywhere, he does not NEED forms, he does not NEED to die, and CAN NOT DIE, if God died EVERYTHING WOULD CEASE TO EXIST

Jesus was CREATED, by GOD, like you said, in the WOMB of Mary. He is NOT anyones SON, just how Adam was created from SCRATCH

Red says:

you're still being too literal with the Son of God thing

- - ->Abrahim says:

It is up to US to sin, it is up to US to do good, it is up to US to ask for forgiveness from GOD, not IDOLS, not FORMS of GOD, NOT IMAGES, NOT MEN, NOT ANIMALS, NOT POSESSIONS, GOD, THE GOD THAT IS EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS PRESENT EVER LIVING NEVER RESTS (NEVER RESTS, they blasphemy even when they say "And then God rested" What? Is god a Man? Does God get tired? HOW DARE THEY)

Red says:

again, too literal with the resting thing look, obviously we disagree

- - ->Abrahim says:

how can you disagree with me?

Red says:

because you're wrong

- - ->Abrahim says:

how am I wrong?

Red says:

because you don't believe in the sacrifice of Christ or at least it's importance

- - ->Abrahim says:

because you're taking away our personal responsibilities, we need to repent, people dont repent FOR us, nobody can get in between US and GOD.

Red says:

of course we need to repent! Christ IS God we repent to God His sacrifice makes that repentance mean something

- - ->Abrahim says:

you're sinning when you SAY that GOD is some kind of thing that comes to EARTH as a BABY, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW POWERFUL GOD IS? DO YOU THINK GOD IS SOME KIND OF HUMAN IDIOT WHO HAS TO WEASLE AROUND ON EARTH AS A BABY? IF GOD SAYS BE, IT IS, THERE IS NONE OF THIS INTERCESSION. NO BODILLY POSESSIONS

Red says:

it wasn't a possession, God came as an incarnation God is all powerful

- - ->Abrahim says:

God does not come in incarnations, how are you any better than the Hindus, the idol worshippers when you say that? they say God came in the incarnation of Krishna (sound familiar?) who was born of a virgin.

God does not come in incarnations

God is only God and will always be God

there are no forms

no incarnations

God IS GOD

no incarnations of God, just GOD the way its always been. He sends messengers who TEACH people the right way, people deny him, and make lies and stories and they say God is the elephant, God is the cow, God is the lamb, the star, the sun INCARNATIONS there are NONE

Red says:

no those are idols Christ was God it's not an idol if you worship God God can have an image

that doesn't make it an idol

- - ->Abrahim says:

no God can't have an image, it does make him an idol, if I draw the sun and say its God, I'm lying. If I draw the son and say its God, God with some beard and long hair and a toga, I AM LYING, because as I sit and do that, God is with me, and OBVIOUSLY DOESNT HAVE A BEARD

Red says:

not anymore, that was a temporary incarnation I worship God, not his incarnation because that incarnation doesn't exist anymore

- - ->Abrahim says:

God doesn't have incarnations, God is not a thing that INCARNATES into CREATIONS

There is GOD the CREATOR and the CREATIONS God is not a CREATION

nor does he walk around with a beard and urinate and shit and bleed

Red says:

He did all to save you and everyone if only you'd recognize it

- - ->Abrahim says:

man you can't see how saying that is a total blasphemy against the purity of GOD? GOD did NOT SHIT

Red says:

as a person he did and as a person he did everything people do except sin

- - ->Abrahim says:

he was never a baby, never a person, because God is not a Man, Man is not in the image of God, God is infinite, FORMLESS, SHAPELESS, KNOWLEDGE, PURE, POWER, GOD CAN NOT LEAVE BEING GOD AND SUDDENLY WALK AROUND SHITTING AS A MAN GOD IS GOD AND ALWAYS WILL BE GOD not an INCARNATION

Red says:

God isn't formless and shapeless, men were created in His image, and God was a man as Jesus Christ

- - ->Abrahim says:

to say God shat, was a baby that was dependant on a mother, urinated, grew up, to say that God has a form, a physical FORM, a LIMITED FORM is a total blasphemy, YOU ARE ENCOMPASSED BY GOD, GOD IS NOT SOME OLD MAN IN THE SKY

Red says:

I know that! God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, He always was and always will be, but He sent His Son to die for us, as a human I'm speaking past tense, not present tense God doesn't have any such for now

- - ->Abrahim says:

you're saying the Son is him, and that the Son had no real father, so the Son isnt the Son its God, and either way its not so because GOD does not Incarnate, God is not a MAN who has CHILDREN, God is not a MAN who has wives, and daughters, sons, fathers, aunts uncles nieces, GOD IS PURE INFINITE THE CREATOR WHAT WE ALL EXIST WITHIN AND CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT. Everything else are creations within God, NOT GOD

Red says:

He's not a literal son, He wasn't conceived like a person, He's just a Son God has one Son and the Son is God

- - ->Abrahim says:

then why is it called the Son?!

Red says:

He just is! that's just the way it is, I don't know why, it just is

- - ->Abrahim says:

just because a humanoid book compiled over time by various human beings says so? Do they know God better than God? They are ignorant and they appoint things to God that they have NO RIGHT to SAY or APPOINT they have no AUTHORITY, they are just people who are purchasing error for the PRICE of TRUTH.

Red says:

God gave them the authority because He told them what to write look, I can assure you that you won't convince me of anything

that I don't already believe

- - ->Abrahim says:

What's the purpose of my convincing you to believe in God, only GOD, the All POWERFUL not a GOD who needs BLOOD to forgive, not a GOD who needs to INCARNATE AS A MAN AND DIE, but GOD the REAL GOD, THE REALITY. What do I gain by convincing you huh? I'm a big sinner, I'm sinning by telling you to bow down and worship God, and not to make stories up about him or reduce him to being an incarnator who shits and urinates as a son who is god who is the father who is the ghost. If it's your decision to violently close your heart to the truth and believe what your parents and community tell you then that's a very incorrect choice. What do I gain by convincing you that Good counts? That God is beyond these things people assign to him without knowledge or authority? I'm saying it to help you understand. If you chose to be blind to what is CLEAR TRUTH then I can't say you've made the right decision AT ALL.

Red says:

well I could give a nice summary of my beliefs and say exactly the same thing you think I'm making the wrong decision

and I think you're making the wrong decision

- - ->Abrahim says:

how am I making the wrong decision?! I am clearly saying what is TRUTH

Red says:

you're saying what you believe to be truth when in reality, you're wrong

- - ->Abrahim says:

how am I wrong?

Red says:

I already told you that, you just won't believe that it makes you wrong

- - ->Abrahim says:

tell me again

Red says:

because you don't believe in the sacrifice of Christ or it's importance

- - ->Abrahim says:

simple as that?

Red says:

that and all that it entails

- - ->Abrahim says:

k

all that it entails.

Red says:

yes, which would include the idea that God was on earth as a man, that man being Jesus Christ the Messiah

- - ->Abrahim says:

k

well that was fun lol

Red says:

haha yeah it was actually thought provoking, so thank you for that smart people are fun to debate with

- - ->Abrahim says:

yes

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:



history channel!?

Very good

+1

I’ll own to the fact that I was insulting when I said, “are you accustomed to thinking?” I’ll apologize for that. I questioned whether or not to add that in my reply and gave in to it’s sharpness. I’m sorry.

“If you have spend more time studying history you would know that profanity has nothing to do with intellegence and only with the constructed morals of religion.”

The word profanity is in direct correlation to blasphemy. Which is why I used the word vulgarity. Vulgarity is slightly different then profanity. Though they are often used synonymously. Are you familiar with the Vulgate? It’s the Latin translation of the Old Testament by Jerome in the 5th century. Up to that point the ancient Hebrew scriptures were only available through the Greek Septuagint. Which is why Jerome translated them to the common language of the people, Latin. Vulgar comes from the Latin word vulgus. Vulgus is close to vulgaris meaning coarseness or crudness. The Vulgate put scripture into the hands of those uneducated in the scholastic Greek language. My point, is that it isn’t common place in an intelligent discussion to use vulgarity. I would respect someone more if they chose to use less harsh language. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a “preconceived notion” not to listen to someone who uses such words. However, their point does not come across as effectively as it might if vulgarity had not been used.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

My point, is that it isn’t common place in an intelligent discussion to use vulgarity.

Vulgar words can be used to express emotions, feelings and/or opinions. As such, they are fit in any type of discussion in which any of those things are discussed, which undoubtedly includes "intelligent discussions".

quote: I would respect someone more if they chose to use less harsh language. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a “preconceived notion” not to listen to someone who uses such words.

It's hard to not get you wrong, when that's pretty much exactly what you said, or are you saying that you would not respect their opinion, or even discuss it, but you would still listen?

quote:

However, their point does not come across as effectively as it might if vulgarity had not been used.



The reader isn't the only one who decides whether the point is getting across effectively, it is also the writer who is making the point to begin with. To restrict the writer's expressions to those which you don't consider to be vulgar (which is subjective to begin with) makes it so that a point he might want to make, may not get across effectively as a result of the limited vocabulary he is coerced to use.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-01-2006).]

The lady doesn't want swears! So be gentle on her digital ears! Wanna say Sh_t? say brown release...Wanna say F_ck? Say Intercourse of a Sexual Nature. Wanna say A_sh_le? Opt for toilet assistant.

Example: Hey, why don't you go have some intercourse of a sexual nature you toilet assistant? Yeah that's right! Brown Release!

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

Stop bumping your threads for no reason Abrahim. When no one replies for a couple days, it's dead. Let it go.

Edit: For anyone who has a problem with this worthless post, I realize its worthlessness and will delete it after I know Abrahim got the message.



You don't have to delete it, it's not worthless, it has my name in it!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The lady doesn't want swears! So be gentle on her digital ears! Wanna say Sh_t? say brown release...Wanna say F_ck? Say Intercourse of a Sexual Nature. Wanna say A_sh_le? Opt for toilet assistant.

Example: Hey, why don't you go have some intercourse of a sexual nature you toilet assistant? Yeah that's right! Brown Release!

Fuck that.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Originally posted by Abrahim:

The lady doesn't want swears! So be gentle on her digital ears! Wanna say Sh_t? say brown release...Wanna say F_ck? Say Intercourse of a Sexual Nature. Wanna say A_sh_le? Opt for toilet assistant.

Example: Hey, why don't you go have some intercourse of a sexual nature you toilet assistant? Yeah that's right! Brown Release!

Fuck that.



hahahaha

We have gotten completely off track. All because I requested that responses did not use vulgarity. Swear if you would like, as I have said before I will listen. Yet, I still maintain that arguments are received better by the opposite side if they are brought fourth with respect. How about in the great debates of history? Where do they use harsh language? Has it been used in a presidential debate? I’m not saying the occasional dropping of indiscrete wordage is completely absent of all discussions. Yet, someone that starts off saying, “Fucking George Bush… or the piece of shit bastard” automatically affronts his listener. Maybe culture has been completely desensitized so that this is no longer the case. Yet, I still believe that in a formal setting impropriety is crude and unnecessary. That is my preference. Please respect that by omitting vulgar words. I don’t think it makes your point stronger.

As I have said before, we have gotten completely off track. Where is the response to my following retort? That’s the problem with debate. We become so enveloped in rhetoric and irrelevancy that we don’t discuss the issue at hand.

So someone, please address that and let the issue of vulgarity lie.

p.s Is there an issue I have failed to address? I may have missed something- please bring it forward again.

heres a question: why do you support human sacrifice and cannabilism?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I'VE BEEN WANTING TO TALK TO THE E-MAN SINCE HE FIRST SHONE HIS SHINEY LIGHT UPON THE SKY OF EARTH AND FOREST BLUE! But which email did you send it to?! Do you gots AIM, MSN, Yahoo?

abrahimesker , abrahimesker@hotmail.com, abrahim_esker

it rhymed oh my

Yes, human sacrifice and cannibalism. Well, I’m assuming by that you are speaking to the death of Christ and Holy Communion? I am also presuming you are using this as a tactic to break down my faith to it’s “simplest form” to make it appear ludicrous. It’s fun to do that with anything… football- grown men smearing each other for a pig skin, Mormonism- all men can be deity if they are good on this earthly realm thus marrying as many women as possible to have celestial sex to populate your own planet. See my point?

Human sacrifice is supported in Christ’s expression of love to his creation. We don’t sacrifice our children. That is a mark of pagan faiths such as the ancient belief in Baal. Secondly, cannibalism is moot because we are not eating actual flesh. I’m not Catholic so I do not agree with the doctrine of transubstantiation. The bread and wine are tools to remember Christ’s sacrifice for us. It’s a souvenir of our forgiveness, if you will.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

We have gotten completely off track.

Nobody forced you to reply or even deal with the issue of vulgarity, it was you who decided to bring it up, and then you who decided to continue dealing with the issue in subsequent replies of yours. You say that the argument has gone off-track, yet you continue to argue about vulgarity, even in this new reply of yours!

quote: Is there an issue I have failed to address? I may have missed something- please bring it forward again.

Sure thing:

"Your faith is a disgusting belief system in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.

It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of 'faith'."

I have a post on page 1 towards the bottom, its lengthy but thats cause I put a convo under my question that I asked you.

The beliefs in themselves don't bother me so much as the followers of Christianity do.

To watch intelligent people who should know better throw their one life away due to some delusions of eternal life when they die is sickening.

To watch your Chrisitian missionaries force useless excrement down people's throats who do not want or need it is sickening.

The blatant hypocrisy and "righteousness" of attempted Christians is sickening.

Christianity in and of itself, is just another attempt at giving meaning, and I could care less about it. Christian suck dick though.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Is there an issue I have failed to address? I may have missed something- please bring it forward again.

Is there anything you have addressed other than cannibalism and sacrifice? I don't recall you addressing anything either Rust, or myself said save for the discussion on vulgarity.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Human sacrifice is supported in Christ’s expression of love to his creation. We don’t sacrifice our children. That is a mark of pagan faiths such as the ancient belief in Baal.

Pagan faiths, eh? What about when god accepted Jephthah's daughter as a human sacrifice?

Also, Ba'al is actually Hebrew for 'lord' and was actually once used as a title for their (and your) god. There was not single, pagan sun'god name "Baal". There were multiple "Baal"s, for multiple people, none of the related. The Jewish god was called Baal until they realized everyone called their god Baal too.

"At first the name Baal was used by the Jews for their God without discrimination, but as the struggle between the two religions developed, the name Baal was given up in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like Jerubbaal were changed to Jerubbesheth: Hebrew bosheth means "shame". Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary (1976) ISBN 031023560X"

So...virgin daughters being sacrificed and calling your god 'Baal'. Hehe. Just go to show that whether Christianity or paganism, 'tis all bullshit. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Rust, please highlight in my last post where I mentioned vulgarity? (the one just above your reply) I did not intend the discussion to continue through several posts but I also wanted to reply to the charges you and others have put against me. For instance that I’m an idiot that doesn’t know the etymology of profanity. Even when the word was not mentioned in any of my prior responses.

Onward, yes? The question was what else have I responded to? I believe I responded to both E-man and Boyd also the remark on cannibalism. (I eagerly await replies.) Especially the former to shock me with the mind numbing truth he promised in his original post.

“Your faith is a disgusting belief system”

Disgusting belief system? First of all, if a Christian were to say that they’d be ridiculed out off the website… but since you’re attacking Christianity it’s completely ok. What happened to religious tolerance? Aristotle once said, “It is the mark of an intelligent mind to entertain an idea without accepting it.” Just consider what I might have to say. It seems as if you have already made up your mind on Christianity. Therefore why should I respond to you? Wrap yourself in rhetoric or sharpness and attack minute details but the point of the matter is will you ever even entertain the idea that my faith is correct? If not then the topic is moot and I will wish you a happy life. Yet, if you will own to the possibility that Christ is truly who he says he is, then we have a discussion to continue.

As for the charges on my faith… “in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.”

Requirement implies something that is needed. God doesn’t need our praise and worship and he doesn’t require it. Yet, it is a result of our faith that we want to worship him. He sent his son to be brutally killed so that we could be saved. I think that deserves our accolades! I wouldn’t say that “countless horrors” are unneeded. He allows sin to be in the world, horrors are the result of sin. That is why we need a savior. God never created evil. Evil is the absence of good just like shadow is the absence of light. God created light and he separated it from the darkness. (Genesis 1:3-4) Darkness is not crafted it is only the result of light that has been taken away. So to evil is good taken away. God allows tragedy for an innumerable amount of reasons… to draw us closer to him, open our hearts, and even as a punishment for our sins. Parents punish their children because they love them. If we were not punished as children then what type of adults would we become? There has to be accountability and responsibility. Without it is chaos.

Rust, I’ve been warned that you are not a great companion for discussion. So I want you to answer the question above. Is what I’m saying even a possibility? If you say no, then our discussion is completely futile. I am willing to consider your argument and the chance that I am wrong, are you in reverse able to do the same? Is there a possibility that Christ is son of God?

Lastly Iam, I apologized when you pointed out my mistake within Ad Hominem. What else have I missed that you have said?



[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-01-2006).]

response taken from: http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html



Our passage of concern this time around is one that skeptics and critics alike have supposed to be an example of human sacrifice in the Bible -- and some even say it is endorsed by God Himself. Here is our passage, Judges 11:29-40 --

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry." "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

Here are our key questions for this passage:

Did the "spirit of the Lord" inspire Jephthah's vow?

Did Jephthah make the vow knowing a human might be involved?

Did Jephthah actually sacrifice his daughter?

If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then we have a very disturbing story indeed, one that suggests that God endorsed a human sacrifice -- implicity if not explicitly. Let's examine some particulars.

Was the Spirit In On It?

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

The most disturbing question raised by critics supposes that this passage indicates that the spirit of the Lord Himself caused Jephthah to offer his daughter as a sacrifice. Jonathan Kirsch, for example, in his book The Harlot by the Side of the Road, uncritically accepts the view of one feminist scholar who asserts that God was ultimately and directly responsible for the very text of the vow. Does this assertion hold up under scrutiny?

To answer this question, let's look at other places where it is said that the "spirit of the Lord" influenced some person to do something.

Judges 3:9-10 But when they cried out to the LORD, he raised up for them a deliverer, Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother, who saved them. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.

Judges 6:34 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him.

Judges 14:6 The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.

Judges 14:19 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house.

Judges 15:14 As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands.

1 Sam. 16:13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.

2 Chr. 20:14-15 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jahaziel son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite and descendant of Asaph, as he stood in the assembly. He said: "Listen, King Jehoshaphat and all who live in Judah and Jerusalem! This is what the LORD says to you: 'Do not be afraid or discouraged because of this vast army. For the battle is not yours, but God's.

Ezekiel 11:5 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind."

As we can see from these passages, what action or saying is inspired by the Spirit of the Lord is detailed immediately after it is said who the Spirit came upon. Therefore, if the Spirit of the Lord inspired Jephthah to do anything at all, it was to go travelling around recruiting his army and go to war with the Ammonites. The fact that the vow is reported seperately indicates that it was not something done under the Spirit of the Lord at all. The critics can't pin this one on God!

Jephthah the Dodo Bird?

When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

Now the next question, the answer to which some say makes God guilty by endorsement, and Jephthah guilty in the main: Did he make this vow knowing that a human might come walking out of his house?

It is common for conservatives to appeal to Jeppie's ignorance in this case, and note that houses of the Biblical period typically had a stockyard that surrounded the house, so that Jephthah could very well have supposed that an animal would be the first thing to meet him. Kirsch, for one, again uncritically following feminist scholarship, dismisses this solid sociological data as "ingenious" and merely asserts that Jephthah "knows exactly what he is doing."

But other data indicates otherwise. First, as Glenn Miller has pointed out, there are too many "incongruities in the text/context for that":

Literal "burnt offerings" HAD TO BE male (Lev 22.18-19). Jephthah's daughter obviously wasn't.

Burnt offerings were ALWAYS associated with condemnation/evil--not thanksgiving and vows. Even the one non-literal use of it in Dt 13.16 (in which a town is offered as a burnt offering) involves abject judgment/condemnation--NOT at all in view in the Jephthah passage.

...What I have to conclude from this passage is that Jephthah is using 'burnt offering' in a general 'offering' sense, and that he is meaning an 'irredeemable vow' as a thank-offering, along the line of Hannah/Samuel. This is the only way to make sense of all the particulars. (Interestingly, Jephthat is surprisingly literate—his knowledge of biblical history,evidenced in the letter to his adversary, shows that he knows the mosaic history—he WOULD have known how bad a literal human sacrifice would have been.)

A recent book by Pamela Reis [OT:RTL] adds some interesting insights to this event:

Jeff's vow would have been taken in the town he lived in, and would have been publically known to all—including his daughter

The daughter has all the appearances of a 'spoiled' child, flaunter her power over her dad;

The daughter has all the appearances of a “paganite” in the passage!

Giving the daughter over to God (as I suggested above) might have forced her to remain unmarried (since she could have done no housewifely work as dedicated to the Lord). This would have forced her (in her understanding) to remain in her father's house (instead of at the tabernacle, as I postulated above).

Jephthah's vow is accordingly 'not rash'--he probably expected a male servant to come out deliberately—as an advancement to the cultic life.

The net effect of her understanding is the same: there was no human sacrifice, nor any devaluation of women in the passage.

Did He (Gulp!) Go Through With It?

The final and ultimate question is: Did Jephthah actually go through with a human sacrifice? Many commentators think so, but the text points in another direction. We note, along with the incongruities cited by Miller above, that Jeppie's daughter spent some time in the wilderness bewailing the fact that she would always be a virgin and never have children. This sounds like Temple service to me! It's either that, or a kid with wrong-headed or peculiar priorities:

J'S DAUGHTER: Oh, boo-hoo! Daddy is going to sacrifice me tomorrow!

FRIEND: How awful!

DAUGHTER: Yes, but you know what the worst part is? I'm ALWAYS going to be a virgin! BOOO-HOOOOOO!

Furthermore, Jeppie's own misery is perfectly understandable; as Miller explains: "As the only child, and if given to the priest in this fashion, Jephthah's entire estate would go to someone else." As important as this was in the ANE, small wonder Jeppie was upset! That vow cost him not only his daughter's life with him at home (and since he was thrown out of his own house, that made the companionship all the more valuable to him), but any chance he had of giving his property to a true descendant.

We therefore conclude that while Jeppie was not a particularly bright fellow, he neither promised nor committed a human sacrifice in this instance. We can surmise that there is a bit of literary "trickery" here...the abrupt ending of the account and the non-specific "he did to her as he vowed" is perhaps designed to shock the reader and make them wonder, "Hey...did he? He didn't!" This would be in perfect keeping with the purpose of Judges as a mirror of Israelite moral anarchy in this period. The reader is shown in various places how bad things got; and this story easily encourages one to wonder just indeed how bad things did get. It is yet another case of the Bible, the Word of God, forcing us to take a long, hard look at ourselves, warts and all.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And now for a response from the "Ebon" website. Ebon allows that this article "does a satisfactory job of clearing up some minor side issues" (which ones does Ebon refer to, we wonder?), then centers his criticism on our contention that Jephthah probably did not kill his daughter in the course of offering her in sacrifice. Ebon claims that treating this issue amounts to an admission that the allegation of contradiction is on-target, but that simply doesn't follow. That focus simply recognizes that the text is ambiguous concerning the fate of Jephthah's daughter, which challenges the Skeptic's claim that the text indicates a contradiction. Ebon's claim is a pose for effect. Ebon subsequently sinks into a ridiculous attack mode where he suggests that the Jephthah account is such a fine example of a plain contradiction that the dispute over the passage shows how Christians will refuse to accept the obvious. Then he finally gets around to the meat of his argument. He thinks we need to add a fourth question to the above:

2a. Did God accept Jephthah's vow knowing a human would be involved?

Ebon apparently has no recognition that the question itself is of no relevance if indeed Jeppie did not, and would not have, enacted a human sacrifice. But taking this as it is, in fact, Ebon's question may be simplified:

Did God accept Jephthah's offer of sacrifice?

Ebon sums up the problem seemingly oblivious to the fact that he concedes the issue in the immediate context:

Of course, to ask this question presupposes that God did accept Jephthah's offer. If Mr. Holding wants an out, I'll give it to him: No explicit reply from God is given. However, the very next verses go on to tell us that Jephthah got exactly what he asked for, specifically victory over the Ammonites. In fact, the text tells us explicitly that Jephthah did not win just by lucky chance, but that "the Lord delivered them into his hands" (11:32). What other meaning can be drawn from this, other than that God did indeed accept the offered bargain?

Ebon's question, which seems intended as a rhetorical one, amounts to an argument from ignorance. Ebon does not know what other meaning can be draw from the fact that Jephthah was given victory in battle apart from God honoring Jephthah's vow, therefore God accepted the human sacrifice that was offered. Note above that Ebon specifically allows that "No explicit reply from God is given." The problem for Ebon is that the text itself gives the specific reasons why Jephthah was given victory in battle:

Judges 10 relates the circumstances whereby God elected to deliver Israel, including "Then they got rid of the foreign gods among them and served the Lord. And he could bear Israel's misery no longer." (Judges 10:16, NIV)

Jephthah received the spirit of God for the purpose of waging war in accordance with the preconditions set in Judges 10. Subsequent to receiving the spirit of God for that purpose (which we find is standard in the book of Judges), Jephthah makes his vow.

Thus, we find that the defeat of the Ammonites is foregone prior to Jephthah's rash vow, regardless of precisely how rash it actually was. The answer to Ebon's crucial fourth question is answered in the negative. Ebon's argument from silence cannot carry the day against the clear indication of the text. Ebon might claim that the military victory itself provides evidence that the vow was accepted, but this does not follow. If Ebon were to vow to grind his daughter into hamburger as an offering to God if the next car to drive past his home happened to be an import, would a subsequent import drive-by show that God had accepted his vow?

Beyond this Ebon tries to bolster his position with an appeal to reverse causation, an appeal that is rightly ignored as a case of presumptive deck-stacking, especially unless and until Ebon advances that argument as more than an aside and gets beyond our points that no actual human sacrifice occurred. As it is, his only attempt to get around this is:

To claim -- based on a movie he recently saw! -- that such a reaction as given by J's daughter was "perfectly understandable and normal..."! We really must question the cognitive abilities of a person who so rashly and cavalierly assumes the values of a fictional character in a work produced in a libertarian society, onto a real person who lived in a tightly-controlled, collectivist society. Moreover, J's daughter is not saying that she would "never know what sex is like" -- she is saying that she will remain a virgin, which has a broader conception than merely "I will not have the experience" as in Ebon's modern movie. We gave more reasons why Jeppie would be upset even beyond this, courtesy of Glenn Miller (and there are more below); this Ebon merely waves off (as though he knows more about the ANE than Miller does!) saying that the "explanation is not sufficient" because, "If Jephthah had merely promised to hand his daughter over to Temple service, he had lost very little thereby." Is Ebon paying attention here? Read it again: "As the only child, and if given to the priest in this fashion, Jephthah's entire estate would go to someone else. As important as this was in the ANE, small wonder Jeppie was upset! That vow cost him not only his daughter's life with him at home (and since he was thrown out of his own house, that made the companionship all the more valuable to him), but any chance he had of giving his property to a true descendant." That, as Ebon burps back, J could "see her again" is not at issue (the tight familial relations of the ANE, in which extended families stayed together in the same household or town, means that this service was as good as a separation, and nevertheless tremendously heartbreaking, in spite of any possible "visits"; it is not as though, as well, J could take time off an hop on a bus to visit!); the property matter Ebon naively dismisses by saying that this would happen after J's death anyway (! -- he is truly thinking anachronistically and ethnocentrically; for the ancients, to pass one's property on to a descendant was of the utmost importance, and Ebon cannot simply and blithely wave it away from his easy chair by saying, "No problemo!") and that he could have just had another kid (far from a sure thing, given that after all this time this was J's only child; an infant mortality rate of around 50% and another cut before people reached the age of 6, and J's likely age at the time, in a day when living to be 35 was unusual). Ebon is simply thinking time out of mind and assuming his modern values and experiences on an ancient text separated by a chasm of years and a chasm of cultural and social understanding.

Ebon's next defense is that he thinks the words "did with [his daughter] according to his vow which he had vowed" are not "non-specific" but rather clear in light of 11:30-1 where J recites his vow. On the contrary, Ebon continues to beg the question and ignore the data showing that J would not under any circumstances have expected anything but an animal to emerge when he arrived home, and assumes a wooden understanding in which J would not have been able to adjust his thinking in accordance with something happening contrary to expectations, and that the later language would have adjusted implications accordingly. What if J had arrived and someone threw a rock out of the doorway? Does Ebon suppose that J would have offered the rock as a sacrifice? What if a fly came out of the house first? Ebon is playing the part of the fundamentalist here, unable to think in more than a single dimension.

Finally Ebon belches out the defense that based on 11:40, "the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year" (11:40), we cannot believe that "the entire nation turned out to mourn and weep over a single girl being committed to Temple service..." Ebon has the KJV in front of him; the word for "lament" means to ascribe praise to or celebrate. Note that it is not the same word used to speak of J's daughter "bewailing" her virginity. The word in fact appears only one other place in the Bible in a relevant context (it appears also in Hosea to refer to "hiring" a prostitute):

Judges 5:11 They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the LORD, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the LORD go down to the gates.

Far from lamenting a terrible fate, the daughters of Israel were celebrating the personal sacrifice of a noble young woman who served as an honorable example. Ebon's counter fails for lamentable lack of knowledge of social, linguistic, and other relevant factors.

We close by re-iterating and adding to the list of Miller's points, all of which Ebon will need to deal with (I omit one which I disagree with):

Literal "burnt offerings" HAD TO BE male (Lev 22.18-19). Jephthah's daughter obviously wasn't.

Human sacrifice was STRICTLY forbidden (Dt 12.31) and we have NO record of it being practiced (even in horrible Judges-period Israel) by mainstream Israel during this period.

The lament for the daughter is about 'not marrying' NOT about 'not living'--it makes me wonder if some kind of religious celibacy is not in view. (Maybe the women at the Entrance to the Tent were celibate--Ex 38.8--living as widows in Israel later did on Temple payrolls.)

Verse 39 calls his action a 'vow'. Lev 27.28 (coupled with 27.21) allowed people to be given over the Lord, who became servants of the Priests. As devoted to the Lord's service, some of them probably did NOT marry (cf. the Nazarite vow, in its restriction on becoming 'unclean' for family members (Num 6.7) omits the words 'husband' or 'wife'...perhaps it was sometimes involving celibacy. The only Nazies we know, though, were married--Samuel and Samson)

As the only child, and if given to the priest in this fashion, Jephthah's entire estate would go to someone else.

We have the VERY parallel case of Hannah and Samuel. She takes a vow, and offers her son to the Lord for all his life. (I Sam 1-2), and such vows did NOT allow the person to be redeemed with money (Lev 27.28-29).

Burnt offerings were ALWAYS associated with condemnation/evil--not thanksgiving and vows. Even the one non-literal use of it in Dt 13.16 (in which a town is offered as a burnt offering) involves abject judgment/condemnation--NOT at all in view in the Jephthah passage.

He would have had to offer her at some cultic site, which would have had a priest. I cannot imagine a priest (even those as lax as elsewhere in the book of Judges) that would have agreed to perform a human sacrifice!

What I have to conclude from this passage is that Jephthah does not know what a BURNT offering is, and that he is meaning an 'irredeemable vow' as a thank-offering, along the line of Hannah/Samuel. This is the only way to make sense of all the particulars. (Remember, Jephthah's home life was not the best one in the world for getting a biblical education--he was the son of a prostitute, and driven away from the house by his brothers.)

Can you please tell us all about Christianity, its basics, how to become or be a Christian, and what are some points that might convince even the most hardened disbeliever?

As for Ba'al...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

"Nevertheless, few if any Biblical uses of "Baal" refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven, but rather refer to any number of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult images, each called baal and regarded as an "idol". Therefore, in any text using the word baal it is important first to determine precisely which god, spirit or demon is meant."

I was speaking to the Ba'al of the Old Testament that I believe Elija challenged.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Can you please tell us all about Christianity, its basics, how to become or be a Christian, and what are some points that might convince even the most hardened disbeliever?

Christianity is fulfilled Judaism. Jews await the messiah, but he already came through Yeshua! (Jesus Christ) We are all by nature sinful. No one can stand before God as a sinner. We needed a savior. Way back in the garden God promised a redeemer to pay for the original sin of Adam and Eve. This was manifested in Christ. Christ had to die because the wages of sin is death. Yet, he defeated death and rose again. Now we can accept him into our hearts and stand before God because we have his perfect son in us. You can't earn your salvation by being good. We are not righteous through our own deeds. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. (Gen 5:16 I believe) So to, we believe and are made righteous through Christ. We can only come to faith through the Holy Spirit who leads us to Christ. Anyone who does not believe denys the Holy Spirit. We are saved by grace alone! (That is the key focus.) All other religions claim you can become righteous. We do not profess works righteousness. Rather, as I've said before, a righteousness of God through faith in him.

That's why it's ridiculous to call a true Christian self-righteous. When we are indeed, the opposite. Now I'll admit that in the past some radicals have not acted in this way. Yet, I do not believe that they had Christ in their hearts.

Give me a specific incident for evidence and I will attempt to oblige you.

Sorry for making so many posts- this is my last one.

I won't be back until next Monday. Until then, reply but don't expect me to be able to reply to a thousand-fold attacks quickly.

I'm a bit out numbered, don't you agree?

[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-01-2006).]

i don't think rust was attacking christianity. i think he was attacking pretty much all western religion with an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god. you completely missed the point i'm afraid.

just like you missed my point. even if you don't believe in transubstantiation, the center of your belief system is still human sacrifice, not simply death or murder.

i am not breaking it down to it's simplest form. i am highlighting the most important doctrine of christianity.

quote:Human sacrifice is supported in Christ’s expression of love to his creation.

what the fuck does this mean? whether you believe that christ actually stopped the need for animal sacrifice or not, he was still sacrificed. and if you believe god is all-powerful, totally unnecessary.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Rust, please highlight in my last post where I mentioned vulgarity? (the one just above your reply) I did not intend the discussion to continue through several posts but I also wanted to reply to the charges you and others have put against me. For instance that I’m an idiot that doesn’t know the etymology of profanity. Even when the word was not mentioned in any of my prior responses.

While you didn't mention the issue in the post just above that reply of mine, you did so in the one that came shortly before. My point still stands. You were continuing the issue while at the same time complaining that it had gotten the debate off-track which seems quite ludicrous.

Moreover, you did much more than just explain that you know the etymology of the word, you reiterated your argument against profanity.

quote:Disgustin g belief system? First of all, if a Christian were to say that they’d be ridiculed out off the website… but since you’re attacking Christianity it’s completely ok. What happened to religious tolerance? Aristotle once said, “It is the mark of an intelligent mind to entertain an idea without accepting it.” Just consider what I might have to say.It seems as if you have already made up your mind on Christianity.

Whether others would "ridicule Christians out of the website" is not only irrelevant (as you are specifically dealing with me and not others), but an outrageous allegation given that you can't even begin to back that up. You have absolutely no way of knowing that. Even if the allegation were true, that would be utterly irrelevant; the only thing you need to concern yourself with is whether or not what I said was true, not with what the forum members would do in the hypothetical scenario you've conjured up.

Moreover, who are you to say, or even imply, that I'm not entertaining either your idea or what you have to say? I have entertained the idea of Christianity in general, and I have come to the conclusion that it is disgusting. I am willing to change my position if you manage to convince me. So please, spare comments implying otherwise.

quote:Therefore why should I respond to you? Wrap yourself in rhetoric or sharpness and attack minute details but the point of the matter is will you ever even entertain the idea that my faith is correct? If not then the topic is moot and I will wish you a happy life. Yet, if you will own to the possibility that Christ is truly who he says he is, then we have a discussion to continue.



I readily accept the possibility of Christianity being true. Nothing in my statement even hinted at the opposite. Stick with what I did say, and leave speculation on whether or not I am willing to change my mind (which I am) to the only person who could possibly know that: me.

quote:

Requirement implies something that is needed. God doesn’t need our praise and worship and he doesn’t require it. Yet, it is a result of our faith that we want to worship him. He sent his son to be brutally killed so that we could be saved. I think that deserves our accolades!

I said the faith itself, not god, required the praise and worship of your god, which is true. I never once said that god required anything. Re-read what I said if you want, so that you verify that this is true. Again, I said that your faith was disgusting because it(i.e. the faith) required that, not because your god required it.

quote:

I wouldn’t say that “countless horrors” are unneeded. He allows sin to be in the world, horrors are the result of sin. That is why we need a savior. God never created evil. Evil is the absence of good just like shadow is the absence of light. God created light and he separated it from the darkness. (Genesis 1:3-4) Darkness is not crafted it is only the result of light that has been taken away. So to evil is good taken away.

1. If he created the universe, then he without a doubt created evil, or at least the possibility of evil. The point still stands either way.

2. They are unneeded if he is omnipotent. As you so wisely said before, your god doesn't "need" anything; this applies to events, and whether they need to happen or not, as well. Nothing "needs" to happen if your god is omnipotent, hence, suffering is unnecessary.

quote: God allows tragedy for an innumerable amount of reasons… to draw us closer to him, open our hearts, and even as a punishment for our sins. Parents punish their children because they love them. If we were not punished as children then what type of adults would we become? There has to be accountability and responsibility. Without it is chaos.

1. All of those reasons are unnecessary by virtue of god's omnipotence. If he were omnipotent, then he would be able to draw us closer to him, open our hearts, and even punish us for our sins, without the use of tragedy, suffering or punishment. That he deliberately chooses not to, means that he deliberately allows evil to exist, which is a disgusting thing to do.

2. Your analogy of a parent punishing their child fails.

We do not consider the act of punishment by a parent to be bad because the parent lacks an infinite amount of resources at his or her disposal to handle the situation. The parent simply lacks other means to teach the child a lesson (at least one as effective as the one he would be teaching) besides punishment. Your god doesn't. By virtue of his omnipotence, he must have the ability to handle the situation with out suffering or tragedy (i.e. without "punishment" to use your analogy). If he deliberately decides not to handle it that way, then your god is a disgusting being that deliberately decides to allow suffering to continue even when he possesses the ability to end it at any moment in time. To use your analogy, we would certainly fault a parent if he hurts his children unnecessarily, which would be the case with your god.



quote:

Rust, I’ve been warned that you are not a great companion for discussion. So I want you to answer the question above. Is what I’m saying even a possibility? If you say no, then our discussion is completely futile. I am willing to consider your argument and the chance that I am wrong, are you in reverse able to do the same? Is there a possibility that Christ is son of God?

I am willing to consider that I am wrong. Your implication that I would not is ridiculous, grossly ill-informed, and quite frankly, not very Christian.

P.S.Your faith doesn't compel you to "save" only those who admit the possibility of being wrong; it compels you to save everyone, including those who do not admit the possibility of being wrong.

The road most traveled is filled with Christians who seek to convert (or explain Christianity to) those who are more easily convinced...

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-02-2006).]

God never created evil? Then how does it exist? God didn't create the shadow to the light? Then how does it exist?

What is God?

"All other religions claim you can become righteous. We do not profess works righteousness." - Theophany

Could you elaborate on the above?

You didnt respond to my post on the other page. Here it is again.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Your faith is a disgusting belief system in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.

It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".

I think we have a winner.

About the torches? Thats ironic. I'd be much more worried about one of you burning a non-believer intellectual type, than a non-believing intellectual type burning you. History shows your church to be the people burners.

Personally speaking christians tend to force their religions on other people, as much as they can short of physical threats (other than hell). Just look at Intellegent Design. It is not science. It is theology claiming to be science. If you think it is science then respond to this, it is something posted a debate that the christians "debating" avoided: "Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it." I will say again it is not science if it does not meet that criteria. This deceptive double standard has to end. Christians tend to do whatever nessessary to make people believe. Can you blame people for thinking negetively of you considering your religion's tendancys? The bible has hundreds of inconsistancies, people pass the religion off as science to try to convince people it is the only correct religion, you scare people into believing with threats of hell, the list goes on. Christians make the same mistakes as other religions but believe themselves to be more self rightous and morally correct. It has a tendancy to annoy people to see and understand what is happening.



On the otherhand I have no problem with you as a person and as long as you contribute to totse in a positive way, carry though on your debates admitting when your wrong, and show yourself to be an intellegent person who doesn't post "too long/didn't read".

Welcome to totse! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

who doesn't post "too long/didn't read".



lol yeah I don't like when they do that! I don't see why Christians have to say something "intervened" the process is obviously there, Evolution, and I do not see how it conflicts at all with a correct and ancient idea of God, the kind I promote. It may come in conflict with the man being in heaven idea that many Christians hold but I stand against that concept.

Ok, sorry taking a while to respond, I've been busy (had to finish a song so we can make a music video for it in a rush, glad that's done though).

First of all, don’t swear. If you have spent any time studying history a foul mouth gets you absolutely nowhere in an educated discussion. The greats of conversation are perfectly capable of expressing an opinion without using vulgarities. I think you will find your opinion will be received much better if you eliminated using words such as “fuck” and “shit.”

This is not a formal argument and if you are that uptight this is the wrong website. If it offends you, again, wrong site, but ok, would it make you happier if I said "screwed up the world?" "Fucked" fits better and was a better word choice.



"Secondly, you completely missed my earlier point. THINK THIS OUT WITH ME. Are you accustomed to thinking?"

Well, you are new here, so I'll let that go.



"Is it truly fair to judge anything entirely on the way a radical part of it’s community relates to society?"

The mainstream church executed the inquisition, the crusades, and the witch hunts. No, it's not fair to judge it based on radicals, and as I said in my post, there is enough to discredit even if you throw out all those atrocities. You completely missed my point. Anyway, history repeats itself (the more I studied history, the more I was amazed that this is really, really true despite its 'cliche') and that this same self righteous, crusading, soul saving, judgemental type attitude still exists today. Like I said though, I don't see this in you in particular, but in a lot of christians.

"For instance, I do not judge Islam on their fundamentalist groups and practices of Jihad. So to don’t judge Christianity by idiots such as Fred Phelps and the Catholic churches actions in history. That would be both inaccurate and narrow-minded. If you take the time to consider what I’m saying then you might realize that my faith is not as affronting as you originally believed it to be."

Again, at that time they were not radicals, and if you read what I actually said, I was explaining that there is enough to discredit your faith without all those things because I actually agree with you that yes, those alone do not completely invalidate your religion. You still have to admit the harm caused there, however, and realize that you do need to look at what religions have done for the world just like any president.



"Nowhere in Christian doctrine or theology is there a contention that believers in the LORD Jesus Christ are “all evil and horrible people…” "

"We are all sinners." We are all intrinsically unworthy of being saved and exiisting with the very person who created us in this state. I never said that the bible claims believers in it are especially bad (although look back up to the atrocities) but that christianity states that we are all sinners and all unworthy of being saved. Of course, somehow if we have faith, then this makes us worthy, as if just stating your faith and believing something based on tales and legends (no more evidence, really, then any other religion) somehow makes us more worthy to be saved. Yea, right. Perfect sense. Help people? Pssh. It's believing a baseless book that lets you into heaven.

"This is a gross distortion; an hyperbole. That being said, believers are certainly imperfect, and since they are endowed with free will, have persistently, through the centuries of civilization, proven over and over, their propensity to make choices that expose the true nature of the human condition; let’s for the sake of argument, summarize that as “sin.”"

Let's not. Sin is an invented concept that we don't need. Things you do cause harm or they don't, and when you cause harm you need to stop or else you will be stopped. That is beneficial to our survival and well being and is how society functions. We don't need to make up another guilt phrase in order to make people follow certain (arbitrary in some cases) rules and then confess your sins.

"It would be wise of you to not assume what Christianity teaches since you obviously no very little about it’s dogma. I wouldn’t be as bold to suppose that you know all the tenets of my philosophy."

I was a very devout christian for 14 years. I knew a lot. Eventually I started getting nagging feelings that something wasn't right and I set out to learn even more to reassure myself. Instead I saw through all the bulls- I mean crap and painfully abandoned the center of my life. It hurt but ultimately I had to follow the truth and I have since gotten over it.

I challenge you to use scripture to validate your previous paragraph. And by scripture I do not mean proof-texts of a single verse taken out of context. Where in the bible does it say “yea, there will be no evidence, this won’t make a lot of sense, it is all based on faith which isn’t really a virtue and is morally irrelevant, but it will make you feel good, and special, and give you something to you look forward to after you die..”

Do you remember what question you asked? How christianity affronts you, and why it creates so much animosity. With an open ended question I'm going to give you a summary of my beliefs and not spend lots of time backing them up.

I might add that just because the bible doesn't explicitly say something doesn't mean it isn't true. The fact is that heaven, christianity, salvation, is very comforting. I really wish christianity were true becase I will be honest; the concept of death, and the fact that my existence will completely end forever and I will turn into nothing frightens me. So, I say that this religion, like all the other ones (which you would confidently claim [and logically have to] were wrong and were just invented to explain things, make people follow rules, and give people something to look forward to) was also invented to explain things, make people follow rules, and give them something to look forward to.

Your religion doesn't make a lot of sense in a lot of ways and is a little strange- "I'm Jesus, the Son of God, who is me, so I'm the son of myself and I'm also this holy spirit who is not me but is God who I am too and the Father hangs out with both of us which is also God up in heaven and stuff-" and is literally incomprehensible to the human mind because 3 cannot equal 1 and so if you think you understand this then you are just deceiving yourself and that's never good.

I'm not going to look up the verse, but at one point Jesus did say something to the effect of 'yes, you need to accept these things based on faith because there will be no proof.'



"I’ll save you some time, it’s not there. How does Christianity make one feel good? Where in scripture is that the aim?"

Every other religion throughout time has been invented to make people feel good. Christianity made me feel good.

"Jesus even cautioned that we would be ridiculed and persecuted. (Prime example: totse.com) This website is dripping with anti-Christian sentiments."

When you are wrong and make things up, of course you will be ridiculed. I can't speak for everyone, but I attack arguments and avoid ad-hominen.

"I think it would make me feel better if I didn’t have a supreme deity to which I am ethically responsible to. Then I could do whatever I wanted."

I'm sorry, but this is the point where I lose all respect for a christian. You just admitted you are a disgusting person with no moral value who is just selfishly following a supreme deity in order for personal reward and avoidance of punishment. You are saying that without God, you would not feel the need to be moral. This is one of my main points- christianity judges on the wrong concepts. Instead of being judged on which religion you believe in (basically like being a citizen of a country really; there is some switching, but 97% of the time your religion is determined by the religion of your parents, just like which country you live in) you should instead be judged on how moral you are and what your real, true worth as a person is.

I don't believe in God. I am good for goodness' sake. I am good to others because I love people and want them to love me. I believe this makes me more worthy of salvation than a person who believes in God out of fear and is only good because they fear God and desire reward.



"Yet, I have set aside such selfishness"



You mean its not selfish that you wouldn't be good without a supreme deity threatening you? Without reward or punishment for yourself after death, based on the actions of this life, you would be less moral? So you aren't actually moral because you care about other people, but because you fear a supreme deity? That seems selfish to me.

"and realized that the second you take away truth, morality, and virtue then the world will inevitably fall to chaos and disarray."

That's why all the atheists are killing each other, and why they committed all those atrocities throughout history. Oh they didn't? Hmm. Perhaps we can conclude morality doesn't come from religion? What comes from religion is more along the lines of... control? A sense of belonging? Hope beyond death? Comfort? Rules? Feeling special? Brutal atrocities? I digress.

"If everyone fends for his own self, then to whom are we responsible? Where is justice? Where is altruism?"

Altruism comes from wishing to do good for others because you love and care about them.

It has nothing to do with doing good for others simply to pleasse a deity in order to get your own reward- that's selfish.

And we are responsible to each other- it's why we have jails.



"The true church does not condone inquisitions, crusades, and witch hunts. My friend, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts."

I guess the true church is very very young. The church of the time condoned and executed those actions itself. Those are facts, and that is all I said. Sheesh.

"The Holocaust? Are you blaming the Christian faith for the Holocaust?"

Not directly, but..

The church didn't speak out and try to stop it. This was only 50 years ago. How old is this 'true church' anyway? You know, the church still refuses to release documents detailing exactly what the church knew and discussed during those times which is very strange if they were against it like they should have been.

"This proves my point that men make choices to be evil. Just because someone stripes a cross upon his breast and pronounces the Christian faith does not in fact make them a Christian. This could be analogous to someone who shops at Pac Sun and considers themselves a surfer in the Midwest. You can wear billabong but that doesn’t mean you’ve seen a billow in your lifetime. So to, an alleged Christian may not actually believe the truth of my faith. That is Christ crucified and his forgiveness. That we can not follow the law for righteousness, but only through him be justified."

Christianity proclaims that we are all sinners and have to submit to the guy who created us imperfect in order to even be allowed to go and live with him.

It is much healthier to not constantly hark on people how they are sinners and inadequate and unworthy and must confess their sins and so on, but instead to help them seek improvement and just learn to not make the same mistakes again and then just leave it be in the past. You don't need to add on the additional shackles of guilt that we have 'sinned' against our 'creator' (unless of course you need to get people to follow your set of rules).

"The rest again, is rhetoric."

All of it is rhetoric to me; I've heard this all before.

"The sheer pearl and greatness of the Christian faith is Jesus- the Messiah. His followers are flawed, yet he is not nor are his teachings."

Yes, we are all imperfect. Let's focus on improvement though, instead of concentrating on constantly apologizing for our sins and begging for forgiveness from our creator and confessing how unworthy we are, ay?

"More to come… be patient. I have a lot to respond to but very little time to do so."

I'm with you on that one.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Ok, sorry taking a while to respond, I've been busy (had to finish a song so we can make a music video for it in a rush, glad that's done though).

"First of all, don’t swear. If you have spent any time studying history a foul mouth gets you absolutely nowhere in an educated discussion. The greats of conversation are perfectly capable of expressing an opinion without using vulgarities. I think you will find your opinion will be received much better if you eliminated using words such as “fuck” and “shit.”"

This is not a formal argument and if you are that uptight this is the wrong website. If it offends you, again, wrong site, but ok, would it make you happier if I said "screwed up the world?" "Fucked" fits better and was a better word choice.



"Secondly, you completely missed my earlier point. THINK THIS OUT WITH ME. Are you accustomed to thinking?"

Well, you are new here, so I'll let that go.



"Is it truly fair to judge anything entirely on the way a radical part of it’s community relates to society?"

The mainstream church executed the inquisition, the crusades, and the witch hunts. No, it's not fair to judge it based on radicals, and as I said in my post, there is enough to discredit even if you throw out all those atrocities. You completely missed my point. Anyway, history repeats itself (the more I studied history, the more I was amazed that this is really, really true despite its 'cliche') and that this same self righteous, crusading, soul saving, judgemental type attitude still exists today. Like I said though, I don't see this in you in particular, but in a lot of christians.

"For instance, I do not judge Islam on their fundamentalist groups and practices of Jihad. So to don’t judge Christianity by idiots such as Fred Phelps and the Catholic churches actions in history. That would be both inaccurate and narrow-minded. If you take the time to consider what I’m saying then you might realize that my faith is not as affronting as you originally believed it to be."

Again, at that time they were not radicals, and if you read what I actually said, I was explaining that there is enough to discredit your faith without all those things because I actually agree with you that yes, those alone do not completely invalidate your religion. You still have to admit the harm caused there, however, and realize that you do need to look at what religions have done for the world just like any president.



"Nowhere in Christian doctrine or theology is there a contention that believers in the LORD Jesus Christ are “all evil and horrible people…” "

"We are all sinners." We are all intrinsically unworthy of being saved and exiisting with the very person who created us in this state. I never said that the bible claims believers in it are especially bad (although look back up to the atrocities) but that christianity states that we are all sinners and all unworthy of being saved. Of course, somehow if we have faith, then this makes us worthy, as if just stating your faith and believing something based on tales and legends (no more evidence, really, then any other religion) somehow makes us more worthy to be saved. Yea, right. Perfect sense. Help people? Pssh. It's believing a baseless book that lets you into heaven.

"This is a gross distortion; an hyperbole. That being said, believers are certainly imperfect, and since they are endowed with free will, have persistently, through the centuries of civilization, proven over and over, their propensity to make choices that expose the true nature of the human condition; let’s for the sake of argument, summarize that as “sin.”"

Let's not. Sin is an invented concept that we don't need. Things you do cause harm or they don't, and when you cause harm you need to stop or else you will be stopped. That is beneficial to our survival and well being and is how society functions. We don't need to make up another guilt phrase in order to make people follow certain (arbitrary in some cases) rules and then confess your sins.

"It would be wise of you to not assume what Christianity teaches since you obviously no very little about it’s dogma. I wouldn’t be as bold to suppose that you know all the tenets of my philosophy."

I was a very devout christian for 14 years. I knew a lot. Eventually I started getting nagging feelings that something wasn't right and I set out to learn even more to reassure myself. Instead I saw through all the bulls- I mean crap and painfully abandoned the center of my life. It hurt but ultimately I had to follow the truth and I have since gotten over it.

I challenge you to use scripture to validate your previous paragraph. And by scripture I do not mean proof-texts of a single verse taken out of context. Where in the bible does it say “yea, there will be no evidence, this won’t make a lot of sense, it is all based on faith which isn’t really a virtue and is morally irrelevant, but it will make you feel good, and special, and give you something to you look forward to after you die..”

Do you remember what question you asked? How christianity affronts you, and why it creates so much animosity. With an open ended question I'm going to give you a summary of my beliefs and not spend lots of time backing them up.

I might add that just because the bible doesn't explicitly say something doesn't mean it isn't true. The fact is that heaven, christianity, salvation, is very comforting. I really wish christianity were true becase I will be honest; the concept of death, and the fact that my existence will completely end forever and I will turn into nothing frightens me. So, I say that this religion, like all the other ones (which you would confidently claim [and logically have to] were wrong and were just invented to explain things, make people follow rules, and give people something to look forward to) was also invented to explain things, make people follow rules, and give them something to look forward to.

Your religion doesn't make a lot of sense in a lot of ways and is a little strange- "I'm Jesus, the Son of God, who is me, so I'm the son of myself and I'm also this holy spirit who is not me but is God who I am too and the Father hangs out with both of us which is also God up in heaven and stuff-" and is literally incomprehensible to the human mind because 3 cannot equal 1 and so if you think you understand this then you are just deceiving yourself and that's never good.

I'm not going to look up the verse, but at one point Jesus did say something to the effect of 'yes, you need to accept these things based on faith because there will be no proof.'



"I’ll save you some time, it’s not there. How does Christianity make one feel good? Where in scripture is that the aim?"

Every other religion throughout time has been invented to make people feel good. Christianity made me feel good.

"Jesus even cautioned that we would be ridiculed and persecuted. (Prime example: totse.com) This website is dripping with anti-Christian sentiments."

When you are wrong and make things up, of course you will be ridiculed. I can't speak for everyone, but I attack arguments and avoid ad-hominen.

"I think it would make me feel better if I didn’t have a supreme deity to which I am ethically responsible to. Then I could do whatever I wanted."

I'm sorry, but this is the point where I lose all respect for a christian. You just admitted you are a disgusting person with no moral value who is just selfishly following a supreme deity in order for personal reward and avoidance of punishment. You are saying that without God, you would not feel the need to be moral. This is one of my main points- christianity judges on the wrong concepts. Instead of being judged on which religion you believe in (basically like being a citizen of a country really; there is some switching, but 97% of the time your religion is determined by the religion of your parents, just like which country you live in) you should instead be judged on how moral you are and what your real, true worth as a person is.

I don't believe in God. I am good for goodness' sake. I am good to others because I love people and want them to love me. I believe this makes me more worthy of salvation than a person who believes in God out of fear and is only good because they fear God and desire reward.



"Yet, I have set aside such selfishness"



You mean its not selfish that you wouldn't be good without a supreme deity threatening you? Without reward or punishment for yourself after death, based on the actions of this life, you would be less moral? So you aren't actually moral because you care about other people, but because you fear a supreme deity? That seems selfish to me.

"and realized that the second you take away truth, morality, and virtue then the world will inevitably fall to chaos and disarray."

That's why all the atheists are killing each other, and why they committed all those atrocities throughout history. Oh they didn't? Hmm. Perhaps we can conclude morality doesn't come from religion? What comes from religion is more along the lines of... control? A sense of belonging? Hope beyond death? Comfort? Rules? Feeling special? Brutal atrocities? I digress.

"If everyone fends for his own self, then to whom are we responsible? Where is justice? Where is altruism?"

Altruism comes from wishing to do good for others because you love and care about them.

It has nothing to do with doing good for others simply to pleasse a deity in order to get your own reward- that's selfish.

And we are responsible to each other- it's why we have jails.



"The true church does not condone inquisitions, crusades, and witch hunts. My friend, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts."

I guess the true church is very very young. The church of the time condoned and executed those actions itself. Those are facts, and that is all I said. Sheesh.

"The Holocaust? Are you blaming the Christian faith for the Holocaust?"

Not directly, but..

The church didn't speak out and try to stop it. This was only 50 years ago. How old is this 'true church' anyway? You know, the church still refuses to release documents detailing exactly what the church knew and discussed during those times which is very strange if they were against it like they should have been.

"This proves my point that men make choices to be evil. Just because someone stripes a cross upon his breast and pronounces the Christian faith does not in fact make them a Christian. This could be analogous to someone who shops at Pac Sun and considers themselves a surfer in the Midwest. You can wear billabong but that doesn’t mean you’ve seen a billow in your lifetime. So to, an alleged Christian may not actually believe the truth of my faith. That is Christ crucified and his forgiveness. That we can not follow the law for righteousness, but only through him be justified."

Christianity proclaims that we are all sinners and have to submit to the guy who created us imperfect in order to even be allowed to go and live with him.

It is much healthier to not constantly hark on people how they are sinners and inadequate and unworthy and must confess their sins and so on, but instead to help them seek improvement and just learn to not make the same mistakes again and then just leave it be in the past. You don't need to add on the additional shackles of guilt that we have 'sinned' against our 'creator' (unless of course you need to get people to follow your set of rules).

"The rest again, is rhetoric."

All of it is rhetoric to me; I've heard this all before.

"The sheer pearl and greatness of the Christian faith is Jesus- the Messiah. His followers are flawed, yet he is not nor are his teachings."

Yes, we are all imperfect. Let's focus on improvement though, instead of concentrating on constantly apologizing for our sins and begging for forgiveness from our creator and confessing how unworthy we are, ay?

"More to come… be patient. I have a lot to respond to but very little time to do so."

I'm with you on that one.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Ok, sorry taking a while to respond, I've been busy (had to finish a song so we can make a music video for it in a rush, glad that's done though).

"First of all, don’t swear. If you have spent any time studying history a foul mouth gets you absolutely nowhere in an educated discussion. The greats of conversation are perfectly capable of expressing an opinion without using vulgarities. I think you will find your opinion will be received much better if you eliminated using words such as “fuck” and “shit.”

This is not a formal argument and if you are that uptight this is the wrong website. If it offends you, again, wrong site, but ok, would it make you happier if I said "screwed up the world?" "Fucked" fits better and was a better word choice.



"Secondly, you completely missed my earlier point. THINK THIS OUT WITH ME. Are you accustomed to thinking?"

Well, you are new here, so I'll let that go.



"Is it truly fair to judge anything entirely on the way a radical part of it’s community relates to society?"

The mainstream church executed the inquisition, the crusades, and the witch hunts. No, it's not fair to judge it based on radicals, and as I said in my post, there is enough to discredit even if you throw out all those atrocities. You completely missed my point. Anyway, history repeats itself (the more I studied history, the more I was amazed that this is really, really true despite its 'cliche') and that this same self righteous, crusading, soul saving, judgemental type attitude still exists today. Like I said though, I don't see this in you in particular, but in a lot of christians.

"For instance, I do not judge Islam on their fundamentalist groups and practices of Jihad. So to don’t judge Christianity by idiots such as Fred Phelps and the Catholic churches actions in history. That would be both inaccurate and narrow-minded. If you take the time to consider what I’m saying then you might realize that my faith is not as affronting as you originally believed it to be."

Again, at that time they were not radicals, and if you read what I actually said, I was explaining that there is enough to discredit your faith without all those things because I actually agree with you that yes, those alone do not completely invalidate your religion. You still have to admit the harm caused there, however, and realize that you do need to look at what religions have done for the world just like any president.



"Nowhere in Christian doctrine or theology is there a contention that believers in the LORD Jesus Christ are “all evil and horrible people…” "

"We are all sinners." We are all intrinsically unworthy of being saved and exiisting with the very person who created us in this state. I never said that the bible claims believers in it are especially bad (although look back up to the atrocities) but that christianity states that we are all sinners and all unworthy of being saved. Of course, somehow if we have faith, then this makes us worthy, as if just stating your faith and believing something based on tales and legends (no more evidence, really, then any other religion) somehow makes us more worthy to be saved. Yea, right. Perfect sense. Help people? Pssh. It's believing a baseless book that lets you into heaven.

"This is a gross distortion; an hyperbole. That being said, believers are certainly imperfect, and since they are endowed with free will, have persistently, through the centuries of civilization, proven over and over, their propensity to make choices that expose the true nature of the human condition; let’s for the sake of argument, summarize that as “sin.”"

Let's not. Sin is an invented concept that we don't need. Things you do cause harm or they don't, and when you cause harm you need to stop or else you will be stopped. That is beneficial to our survival and well being and is how society functions. We don't need to make up another guilt phrase in order to make people follow certain (arbitrary in some cases) rules and then confess your sins.

"It would be wise of you to not assume what Christianity teaches since you obviously no very little about it’s dogma. I wouldn’t be as bold to suppose that you know all the tenets of my philosophy."

I was a very devout christian for 14 years. I knew a lot. Eventually I started getting nagging feelings that something wasn't right and I set out to learn even more to reassure myself. Instead I saw through all the bulls- I mean crap and painfully abandoned the center of my life. It hurt but ultimately I had to follow the truth and I have since gotten over it.

I challenge you to use scripture to validate your previous paragraph. And by scripture I do not mean proof-texts of a single verse taken out of context. Where in the bible does it say “yea, there will be no evidence, this won’t make a lot of sense, it is all based on faith which isn’t really a virtue and is morally irrelevant, but it will make you feel good, and special, and give you something to you look forward to after you die..”

Do you remember what question you asked? How christianity affronts you, and why it creates so much animosity. With an open ended question I'm going to give you a summary of my beliefs and not spend lots of time backing them up.

I might add that just because the bible doesn't explicitly say something doesn't mean it isn't true. The fact is that heaven, christianity, salvation, is very comforting. I really wish christianity were true becase I will be honest; the concept of death, and the fact that my existence will completely end forever and I will turn into nothing frightens me. So, I say that this religion, like all the other ones (which you would confidently claim [and logically have to] were wrong and were just invented to explain things, make people follow rules, and give people something to look forward to) was also invented to explain things, make people follow rules, and give them something to look forward to.

Your religion doesn't make a lot of sense in a lot of ways and is a little strange- "I'm Jesus, the Son of God, who is me, so I'm the son of myself and I'm also this holy spirit who is not me but is God who I am too and the Father hangs out with both of us which is also God up in heaven and stuff-" and is literally incomprehensible to the human mind because 3 cannot equal 1 and so if you think you understand this then you are just deceiving yourself and that's never good.

I'm not going to look up the verse, but at one point Jesus did say something to the effect of 'yes, you need to accept these things based on faith because there will be no proof.'



"I’ll save you some time, it’s not there. How does Christianity make one feel good? Where in scripture is that the aim?"

Every other religion throughout time has been invented to make people feel good. Christianity made me feel good.

"Jesus even cautioned that we would be ridiculed and persecuted. (Prime example: totse.com) This website is dripping with anti-Christian sentiments."

When you are wrong and make things up, of course you will be ridiculed. I can't speak for everyone, but I attack arguments and avoid ad-hominen.

"I think it would make me feel better if I didn’t have a supreme deity to which I am ethically responsible to. Then I could do whatever I wanted."

I'm sorry, but this is the point where I lose all respect for a christian. You just admitted you are a disgusting person with no moral value who is just selfishly following a supreme deity in order for personal reward and avoidance of punishment. You are saying that without God, you would not feel the need to be moral. This is one of my main points- christianity judges on the wrong concepts. Instead of being judged on which religion you believe in (basically like being a citizen of a country really; there is some switching, but 97% of the time your religion is determined by the religion of your parents, just like which country you live in) you should instead be judged on how moral you are and what your real, true worth as a person is.

I don't believe in God. I am good for goodness' sake. I am good to others because I love people and want them to love me. I believe this makes me more worthy of salvation than a person who believes in God out of fear and is only good because they fear God and desire reward.



"Yet, I have set aside such selfishness"



You mean its not selfish that you wouldn't be good without a supreme deity threatening you? Without reward or punishment for yourself after death, based on the actions of this life, you would be less moral? So you aren't actually moral because you care about other people, but because you fear a supreme deity? That seems selfish to me.

"and realized that the second you take away truth, morality, and virtue then the world will inevitably fall to chaos and disarray."

That's why all the atheists are killing each other, and why they committed all those atrocities throughout history. Oh they didn't? Hmm. Perhaps we can conclude morality doesn't come from religion? What comes from religion is more along the lines of... control? A sense of belonging? Hope beyond death? Comfort? Rules? Feeling special? Brutal atrocities? I digress.

"If everyone fends for his own self, then to whom are we responsible? Where is justice? Where is altruism?"

Altruism comes from wishing to do good for others because you love and care about them.

It has nothing to do with doing good for others simply to pleasse a deity in order to get your own reward- that's selfish.

And we are responsible to each other- it's why we have jails.



"The true church does not condone inquisitions, crusades, and witch hunts. My friend, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts."

I guess the true church is very very young. The church of the time condoned and executed those actions itself. Those are facts, and that is all I said. Sheesh.

"The Holocaust? Are you blaming the Christian faith for the Holocaust?"

Not directly, but..

The church didn't speak out and try to stop it. This was only 50 years ago. How old is this 'true church' anyway? You know, the church still refuses to release documents detailing exactly what the church knew and discussed during those times which is very strange if they were against it like they should have been.

"This proves my point that men make choices to be evil. Just because someone stripes a cross upon his breast and pronounces the Christian faith does not in fact make them a Christian. This could be analogous to someone who shops at Pac Sun and considers themselves a surfer in the Midwest. You can wear billabong but that doesn’t mean you’ve seen a billow in your lifetime. So to, an alleged Christian may not actually believe the truth of my faith. That is Christ crucified and his forgiveness. That we can not follow the law for righteousness, but only through him be justified."

Christianity proclaims that we are all sinners and have to submit to the guy who created us imperfect in order to even be allowed to go and live with him.

It is much healthier to not constantly hark on people how they are sinners and inadequate and unworthy and must confess their sins and so on, but instead to help them seek improvement and just learn to not make the same mistakes again and then just leave it be in the past. You don't need to add on the additional shackles of guilt that we have 'sinned' against our 'creator' (unless of course you need to get people to follow your set of rules).

"The rest again, is rhetoric."

All of it is rhetoric to me; I've heard this all before.

"The sheer pearl and greatness of the Christian faith is Jesus- the Messiah. His followers are flawed, yet he is not nor are his teachings."

Yes, we are all imperfect. Let's focus on improvement though, instead of concentrating on constantly apologizing for our sins and begging for forgiveness from our creator and confessing how unworthy we are, ay?

"More to come… be patient. I have a lot to respond to but very little time to do so."

I'm with you on that one.

? hey Ian.

What do I have against Christianity...

well, firstly it relies up fear. Fear that we have no purpose, fear of God, fear of ones own body, fear of other people, fear for different beliefs, fear of failure, fear of death.

The stuff preached by Christianity is moronic, lots of it makes no sense. I HATE the way Christians try and make existence out to be this simple game that God plays, with his absolute rules (created from nothing) being the standard for existence to which we must all conform. I hate the rediculous shit christians come out with, and the way they constantly use the Bible to back up illogical arguments that make no sense. I hate their weakness and simplicity, their desire to be "right" and to know everything, and to bow down and kiss God's almighty ass.

I hate Christianities understanding of logic/intelligence, they invent this warped logic to which people must conform, like evolution being less probable than biblical creation and their thinking that the mechanics of the mind and universe are "mathmatical" and that there is a Truth and that some people are "wrong" and are going to suffer for it.

I hate the way christians are wrong, and are setting back the human race, i hate their assumption that "God" must be the God of the bible just because they were raised in a Christian country. I have Christians inability to look at their own beliefs with a rational mind, or an open mind. They are sooooo sure that the creater and upholder of existence is on their side that their heads are rammed so far up their ass' that they are totally blind.

I hate the illogical bullshit i get told by Christians, and their weakmindedness, going on about how "science can't answer everything" and how this must "logically" mean God is doing such and such blah blah.

I hate their role in a weak and feeble system, a human race bent on self destruction and lack of respect for the world, and the upholding of fucking ignorant and pathetic laws under controlling and indoctrinating systems. An example of this would be most Christians are "against drugs" (well, illegal ones) and uphold the states views on them because apparently Christianity says to do so and this is what god wants (despite making every plant etc).

I fucking hate christians thinking God is just this all powerful lord, it makes me think i'm living in the fucking middle ages with a feudal system. I dislike the idea that God is this angsty fag who can break his own rules etc and actually has no love, tollerance, respect, decency, value or anything.

I hate the way Christians are "fulfilling their purpose" through being total pricks, tell other people they are wrong, going on about how humans aren't animals, saying God's will is just for them to have children and worship him.

I hate their bullshit trinity, and how it makes no fucking sense at all, and yet "faith" can make everything better.

Gah, this is a long rant but i couldn't help it.

On the other hand, most Christians can actually be ok, they are just so poisened and weak, I want them to develop in love of themselves and lead a an existence in which we work together as a race for our own benefit, not for the glory of some imaginary deity that the weak need in their lives.

IanBoyd3...

Use the "Edit" button that looks like a piece of paper with a pencil next to it. Not the reply button. You can also use this to delete posts.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/ubbcode.html

See the above page for how to use quote and bold tags.

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:

What do I have against Christianity...

well, firstly it relies up fear. Fear that we have no purpose, fear of God, fear of ones own body, fear of other people, fear for different beliefs, fear of failure, fear of death.

The stuff preached by Christianity is moronic, lots of it makes no sense. I HATE the way Christians try and make existence out to be this simple game that God plays, with his absolute rules (created from nothing) being the standard for existence to which we must all conform. I hate the rediculous shit christians come out with, and the way they constantly use the Bible to back up illogical arguments that make no sense. I hate their weakness and simplicity, their desire to be "right" and to know everything, and to bow down and kiss God's almighty ass.

I hate Christianities understanding of logic/intelligence, they invent this warped logic to which people must conform, like evolution being less probable than biblical creation and their thinking that the mechanics of the mind and universe are "mathmatical" and that there is a Truth and that some people are "wrong" and are going to suffer for it.

I hate the way christians are wrong, and are setting back the human race, i hate their assumption that "God" must be the God of the bible just because they were raised in a Christian country. I have Christians inability to look at their own beliefs with a rational mind, or an open mind. They are sooooo sure that the creater and upholder of existence is on their side that their heads are rammed so far up their ass' that they are totally blind.

I hate the illogical bullshit i get told by Christians, and their weakmindedness, going on about how "science can't answer everything" and how this must "logically" mean God is doing such and such blah blah.

I hate their role in a weak and feeble system, a human race bent on self destruction and lack of respect for the world, and the upholding of fucking ignorant and pathetic laws under controlling and indoctrinating systems. An example of this would be most Christians are "against drugs" (well, illegal ones) and uphold the states views on them because apparently Christianity says to do so and this is what god wants (despite making every plant etc).

I fucking hate christians thinking God is just this all powerful lord, it makes me think i'm living in the fucking middle ages with a feudal system. I dislike the idea that God is this angsty fag who can break his own rules etc and actually has no love, tollerance, respect, decency, value or anything.

I hate the way Christians are "fulfilling their purpose" through being total pricks, tell other people they are wrong, going on about how humans aren't animals, saying God's will is just for them to have children and worship him.

I hate their bullshit trinity, and how it makes no fucking sense at all, and yet "faith" can make everything better.

Gah, this is a long rant but i couldn't help it.

On the other hand, most Christians can actually be ok, they are just so poisened and weak, I want them to develop in love of themselves and lead a an existence in which we work together as a race for our own benefit, not for the glory of some imaginary deity that the weak need in their lives.

Be Mellow my Fellow! Got MSN AIM YAHOO? I'd like to find you a religion if possible.

i just want you guys to know that not all christians believe in the whole "judgement of your sins" thing. Christianity is a really diverse religon, it's just the diluded mainstream right wing christians that get all the attention and make christianity seem like it is all about hate.

Okay. A few people have said they "hated" Christianity. To hate, you had to have loved at one point. I'm not even going to ask "what happened?" That's your business if you want to share or not.

Christianity, the basis of the faith itself, does NOT run on fear. RELIGIONS, however, do--ANY religion. Bearing that in mind it's not fear of DEATH that keeps people in line; it's fear of eternal torment. So hence the "rules": don't kill, don't masturbate, and so on. Do some make sense? Of course not! That's human nature! Look at our own, "non-religious encouraged" society! It is the same--and excuse my wonderful vocabulary--shit on both ends.

"The Bible this, the Bible that." Okay. Fine. No Bible argument here, no "faith," argument. Pure scientific proof? None. Our galaxy has no origin; the Big Bang? Where the hell did the matter and anti-matter come from? Another galaxy? It's three words that scientists AND religious people hate saying: "We don't know." Nobody knows! Nothing wrong with admitting that, in the end. People believe in evolution, people don't; does it matter to you, in the end? Are these idiots (or not) paying your bills or taking care of you? If they are, more's the pity, but if not, does it really matter?

ALSO. I've been through the *wonderful* Catholic education system. THIRTEEN YEARS of HELL. I learned Darwinism in 4th grade. I was taught to "accept Darwinism as a variation of Creation." Right? Wrong? I don't care, personally. We came from apes, all the evidence is there, and apes, waaaaay back, came from one celled organisms. That means God is a one-celled organism who can wreck havoc on our lives. Okay, good, let's move on.

"Role in a weak-minded and feeble system." Weak-minded? Crusades? Inquisition? Current "war" w/ the Middle East? Nothing about weak-minded or feeble. STUPID, yes, but not weak-minded. If anything, just the opposite: so stubborn it has turned into stupidity. Moving on once again.

Trinity: Father, Son, Ghost. Okay, I know you hate this word, but... the Bible has no mention of it. The only defense of the "Trinity" is Jesus's baptism. Trinity was invented by the Catholics *bows* to explain the so-called anointing of the Apostles. You can blame us. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

"I'm not Catholic, I'm Christian!" Yes, that's nice, but Catholic creed is the basis of Christian faith. Don't believe me? Go read your history; The first split was the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, second was Protestantism, w/ Martin Luther and all of the other "founders." So the "Trinity" and other things along that line were, basically, invented at will by religious authority. I don't think it's right, but that's life; sometimes things suck.

"Fulfilling their purpose by being total pricks." I actually agree with that, sadly, although I'm Catholic myself. Know why? Because I've been told that I'm "not a true Christian because I follow the pope." Um... last I checked, old Nazi-youth was in Rome. I'm in the US of A. Nope, not following anyone; I'm human, not a sheep. I evolved to think. Doesn't mean I don't listen to the sense of "don't do shit to your neighbors if you don't want them to get revenge on you." Oh, wait, sorry--I swore. Let me rephrase: "The Golden Rule." Anyway, Christians aren't supposed to judge. Those that do.... aren't REAL! Yahoo! Weeded out the phonies! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

"So many bad things have happened because of Christianity." Yes. Crusades, Inquisitions, Wars...hm... Let me think. KKK, Holocaust, pedophile priests.... I must be missing QUITE a bit... Puritan era... Salem witchcraft trials... Boy Scouts takeover... Communism... Media control... Rigging elections... Congress passing unconstitutional laws... country spiraling into economic collapse... Oh wait, that's political. BAD THINGS HAPPEN BECAUSE HUMAN BEINGS ARE STUPID AND STILL LEARNING! THAT'S LIFE!

Oh, and for the "well, if God's all powerful, why do bad things happen?" It's called "free will." He sits and watches us (pardon the language) fuck up. Why? Hell if I know! But, you want the religious debate, so... God's not the only entity out there. There are *gasp* bad ones too! Oh no! "But God's not evil!" No, maybe not, but how would you know good w/out evil? You need one to have the other, in the end.

Hi, I didn't read most of this thread because it was way too long, so I'm just gonna go ahead and jump in here.

The message that Jesus was trying to get across is not a complicated one, all he was really saying is just try to be a decent human being. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Don't be a dick. And no matter how hard you try, you're gonna screw that up, but that's inevitable so it's cool. Just do your best, know when you're wrong, and try to do better in the future. It's not hard, and it's a great guideline for how to live your life, no matter what you consider your religion to be. Even if you don't buy into his miracles, or dying for your sins so you don't have to, you can still learn a lot from what he did and said.

The problem with Christianity is what we've done with it after he left. We made what was originally a simple matter waaay too complicated, started forcing it on other people, and generally forgot about pretty much everything he said. I consider myself a Christian, but probably not the kind any of you are thinking of. I'm not going to sit here and defend the religion because anything bad that you people have to say about it is probably well-deserved. We fucked it up, and we deserve to be criticised for that. Honestly I wish that the churches and denominations would die out, because that's probably the only way people could start getting back to the root of it all.

If Jesus was just an average joe, not a savior or God in human form, does that invalidate his teachings? Do they lose all value? I think not. He said a lot of great things, and I think that can be appreciated by anyone regardless of religion and creed. Stop worrying about the establishments built around the message, they were created by us so of course they're flawed. Read the gospels without bias or preconceptions and you'll see the value of it all.

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

Okay. A few people have said they "hated" Christianity. To hate, you had to have loved at one point. I'm not even going to ask "what happened?" That's your business if you want to share or not.



There is no such thing is "I've always hated" or "I've hated from the first time I learnt it"

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

Okay. A few people have said they "hated" Christianity. To hate, you had to have loved at one point. I'm not even going to ask "what happened?" That's your business if you want to share or not.

Christianity, the basis of the faith itself, does NOT run on fear. RELIGIONS, however, do--ANY religion. Bearing that in mind it's not fear of DEATH that keeps people in line; it's fear of eternal torment. So hence the "rules": don't kill, don't masturbate, and so on. Do some make sense? Of course not! That's human nature! Look at our own, "non-religious encouraged" society! It is the same--and excuse my wonderful vocabulary--shit on both ends.

"The Bible this, the Bible that." Okay. Fine. No Bible argument here, no "faith," argument. Pure scientific proof? None. Our galaxy has no origin; the Big Bang? Where the hell did the matter and anti-matter come from? Another galaxy? It's three words that scientists AND religious people hate saying: "We don't know." Nobody knows! Nothing wrong with admitting that, in the end. People believe in evolution, people don't; does it matter to you, in the end? Are these idiots (or not) paying your bills or taking care of you? If they are, more's the pity, but if not, does it really matter?

ALSO. I've been through the *wonderful* Catholic education system. THIRTEEN YEARS of HELL. I learned Darwinism in 4th grade. I was taught to "accept Darwinism as a variation of Creation." Right? Wrong? I don't care, personally. We came from apes, all the evidence is there, and apes, waaaaay back, came from one celled organisms. That means God is a one-celled organism who can wreck havoc on our lives. Okay, good, let's move on.

"Role in a weak-minded and feeble system." Weak-minded? Crusades? Inquisition? Current "war" w/ the Middle East? Nothing about weak-minded or feeble. STUPID, yes, but not weak-minded. If anything, just the opposite: so stubborn it has turned into stupidity. Moving on once again.

Trinity: Father, Son, Ghost. Okay, I know you hate this word, but... the Bible has no mention of it. The only defense of the "Trinity" is Jesus's baptism. Trinity was invented by the Catholics *bows* to explain the so-called anointing of the Apostles. You can blame us. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

"I'm not Catholic, I'm Christian!" Yes, that's nice, but Catholic creed is the basis of Christian faith. Don't believe me? Go read your history; The first split was the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, second was Protestantism, w/ Martin Luther and all of the other "founders." So the "Trinity" and other things along that line were, basically, invented at will by religious authority. I don't think it's right, but that's life; sometimes things suck.

"Fulfilling their purpose by being total pricks." I actually agree with that, sadly, although I'm Catholic myself. Know why? Because I've been told that I'm "not a true Christian because I follow the pope." Um... last I checked, old Nazi-youth was in Rome. I'm in the US of A. Nope, not following anyone; I'm human, not a sheep. I evolved to think. Doesn't mean I don't listen to the sense of "don't do shit to your neighbors if you don't want them to get revenge on you." Oh, wait, sorry--I swore. Let me rephrase: "The Golden Rule." Anyway, Christians aren't supposed to judge. Those that do.... aren't REAL! Yahoo! Weeded out the phonies! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

"So many bad things have happened because of Christianity." Yes. Crusades, Inquisitions, Wars...hm... Let me think. KKK, Holocaust, pedophile priests.... I must be missing QUITE a bit... Puritan era... Salem witchcraft trials... Boy Scouts takeover... Communism... Media control... Rigging elections... Congress passing unconstitutional laws... country spiraling into economic collapse... Oh wait, that's political. BAD THINGS HAPPEN BECAUSE HUMAN BEINGS ARE STUPID AND STILL LEARNING! THAT'S LIFE!

Oh, and for the "well, if God's all powerful, why do bad things happen?" It's called "free will." He sits and watches us (pardon the language) fuck up. Why? Hell if I know! But, you want the religious debate, so... God's not the only entity out there. There are *gasp* bad ones too! Oh no! "But God's not evil!" No, maybe not, but how would you know good w/out evil? You need one to have the other, in the end.

I want you...on my MSN, AIM, or Yahoo!

Abrihim, what are you some IM converter?

I have absolutly no intention of giving you my IM just so you can waste my time trying to convery me to something i know to be wrong.

Sorry matey.

I will however argue with you through TOTSE if you wish, as this is why i visit this forum.

I "hate" christianity in the sense it makes me angry. I recognise my anger to be a weakness, i am letting a weak nothing stupid rediculousness make me angry, therefore my anger has weakened me, i have allowed myself to loose some degree of control over my emmotions.

You can easily hate without having previously loved to whatever moron who suggested this, i don't really actually "hate" anything i guess, but if i were to it most certainly wouldn't be because i used to love it. Sorry your mathmatical +- view of life fails miserably.

Oh, and where has the OP gone, is she off in a huff because people swore in her thread? Oh noez1111

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

There is no such thing is "I've always hated" or "I've hated from the first time I learnt it"

I disagree entirely. From the moment I started learning English, I hated it. From the moment I was introduced to Christianity, I found the concepts infantile and the moment I met its adherents I found them to be generally hypocritical and stupid (as the adherents to such an infantile belief should be).

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:

Oh, and where has the OP gone, is she off in a huff because people swore in her thread? Oh noez1111

Lauren (theophany) is gone until Monday. She mentioned this in her last post.

I do find the bit about cursing rather dumb, but I suppose eventually she'll learn that she has to adjust to her audience, not the other way around. However -- along with that she also mentioned how hatred blinds us, and I agree that we ought to pull such emotions to the side when we need to discuss something intelligently.

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:



I "hate" christianity in the sense it makes me angry. I recognise my anger to be a weakness, i am letting a weak nothing stupid rediculousness make me angry, therefore my anger has weakened me, i have allowed myself to loose some degree of control over my emmotions.

You can easily hate without having previously loved to whatever moron who suggested this, i don't really actually "hate" anything i guess, but if i were to it most certainly wouldn't be because i used to love it. Sorry your mathmatical +- view of life fails miserably.



So you're hating something without having learned any of it? Sounds rather... well, foolish. You're going by stereotypes and what's out on the oh-so-reliable media and, maybe, because of what other people have done/said to you. How are you any different from the people that you loathe, then, since their actions have no rational foundation either?

And I'm not a moron! I'm just not a genius :P And the line of that is an old philosophy--the exact quote is from a French writer.

And I don't like giving my AIM name out on message boards, b/c I don't want to get beaten, lol.

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

So you're hating something without having learned any of it? Sounds rather... well, foolish. You're going by stereotypes and what's out on the oh-so-reliable media and, maybe, because of what other people have done/said to you. How are you any different from the people that you loathe, then, since their actions have no rational foundation either?

And I'm not a moron! I'm just not a genius :P And the line of that is an old philosophy--the exact quote is from a French writer.

And I don't like giving my AIM name out on message boards, b/c I don't want to get beaten, lol.

Piss off, i've known Christians since i was about...well, since my first memory. I've grown up in a Christian society, surrounded by both rational people, people who want me to make up my own mind, Christians and tons of others.

All of my views come from my experiences, anything i said i hated about Christians/Christianity is something i have directly experienced, not just once but many many times. I learn Christian philosophy, i read christian philosophy and theology, i have my own views and i have experienced reality in a markedly different way to many many people i know, Christian or not.

I don't listen to the "oh so reliable media", you yourself are going by generalisations and steriotypes, in assuming that by thinking your beliefs are moronic i have been influenced by some big bad "anti-christian" conspiricy.

Well i've got news for you, guess who makes people dislike Christians or Christianity? The very faith and people do, dislike/lack of faith is generally a reaction to experiencing your illogic bullshit which you have been indocrinated with.

i'm not going to go into a discussion with you about whether I am different from Christians or not. I am a human being, i experience life, and my beliefs, pains and views are a result of this. Unless Christians are a different race i assume you do the same, but somewhere along the line your minds abandoned reason in favor of fantasy, and this is plainly obvious to me. It's just plainly obvious Christianity isn't the "Truth", if you can't see this then you may never, and i'm not going to force you to change (unlike certain members of your faith) however I don't have to respect you for being wrong.

You can give me the "oh, well you don't know that i'm not right" crap, but actually I do. I know in the very soul and seat of my existence that the ideas of Christianity aren't "real", evidence being...wow wouldn't reality SUCK if that was true, a God that you choose to believe in the reason for my existence and everything i love, fuck that.

Life is more complicated than you, or I will ever understand, i admit this, and this is why i'm not 100% sure about the vast majority of stuff. I'm about as certain as certain can be that religion isn't "the Truth" however, now maybe i'm a dillusional little asshole, and you've been right all along, but you can't deny that if you're "right" then God made (or allowed) me to be this way, he hasn't erased me from the face of the earth, so I must be doing something right.

blarg.

Sonuva...

I just realized why edit didn't work at all. God---- it. Ugh. I did this way too late at night for me. I need more sleep.

"To hate something you have to love it first."



What the fuck? I'm assuming you hate Hitler; does this mean you loved him first? Christ, easy on the rhetoric. Watch how much bull---- you're spewing out, this one doesn't even make any sense. Sheeesh.



I don't hate christianity. A lot of christians will try to pull the 'blinded by hate' defense and claim we just don't accept the obvious truth because we hate it. Um, no, sorry, I don't hate it or its members, ande I mean you hate Hitler but you can still see why he is evil and wrong right? Ok thanks. I look at it just like the Santa Claus story.

Guess we've gotta agree to disagree http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

God or not, we're all here, right? All stuck with life and (sometimes) dealing with jackasses who believe that "Jesus rode on a dinosaur." (I'm not kidding. People really believe it)

At least I know where rainbows come from, lol, and I am happy with that scientific fact. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

I disagree entirely. From the moment I started learning English, I hated it. From the moment I was introduced to Christianity, I found the concepts infantile and the moment I met its adherents I found them to be generally hypocritical and stupid (as the adherents to such an infantile belief should be).

Thats correct, the "you must love something before you can hate it" was not suggested to me but rather I was questioning this statements.

I'm back, yet I don't know where to start? Thank you clarphimous for addressing my absence.

I'm really sorry guys but I have no idea where to go from here. I have been busy with visiting family and working on art studio.. I sincerely do not have the time to address all the issues you are throwing at me. Is that fair? That it's nearly impossible for me to supply a sufficient answer in the amount of time expected on this site? I apologize if you think this a weakness in my ideology. But, I'm going to need very specific questions or attacks to comment on. Please tell me EXACTLY what you want to know.

I also think I'm at a huge disadvantage due to the prevalent prejudice of the site. Moreover, the contempt in which I'm regarded with affronts me. Whether or not that is your intention I can never judge.

Therefore, if you want my response I have the simple request that you ask me with respect to my faith. Calling it disgusting, vile, and hateful would be making vast uneducated assumptions. Honestly, I'm not expecting you to believe. I just wish to open your mind to the possibility that not all Christians are elitist fools. That I'm not self-righteous. That my faith is not inherently "disgusting." I absolutly agree that some radicals are irrational idiots to be ignored. However, can you tell me one faith system that does not have its radicals?

Now, I think a huge question that needs to be addressed is why would Christ die if he could make the rules? I've thought about this frequently. I am here to say that I don't have a concrete answer. Would it ruin my faith if I didn't have a response? Would it negate the entire thought and make it irrelavent? The only conclusion I can make is that there is some reasoning I can't understand. (This I know is not an acceptable answer.) You've already highlighted that Christianity disregards reasoning. Since this is a discussion that I wish to continue I will end with this thought. Can human reasoning be perfect?

I'll try to be on tomorrow- it might be later on in the day. Sorry this response is so delayed.





[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-06-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Please tell me EXACTLY what you want to know.

Sure thing. Answer how your faith is not disgusting when it entails the worship and praise of a being that allows for needless horrors to fall upon mankind.

I say "needless horrors", given that if your god is omnipotent, nothing "needs" to happen. He could choose to teach us lessons without suffering having to occur. He can choose to create something that makes us closer to him, again without the use of suffering or pain, or even punishment. He could even eliminate the possibility of us ever doing anything evil, while at the same time preserving our free will (however illogical that may sound).

quote:Therefore, if you want my response I have the simple request that you ask me with respect to my faith. Calling it disgusting, vile, and hateful would be making vast uneducated assumptions.

No, you calling those statements "uneducated assumptions" is an uneducated assumption. Someone calling your faith "disgusting" is an opinion, and whether the opinion is uneducated is something you have absolutely no knowledge of. For example, I have arrived at the opinion that Christianity is disgusting through study of what Christianity entails. That is neither an assumption nor uneducated of me.

So please stop making these ridiculous statements you cannot even begin to substantiate. It's rather ludicrous for you to demand that we not use profanity while you're free to make baseless accusations through out the discussion. I'd much rather hear profane language, which serves to convey emotion and strong opinions, than allegations that provide nothing to discuss and are just insults in disguise - I think the majority of the posters here would agree.

quote:You've already highlighted that Christianity disregards reasoning. Since this is a discussion that I wish to continue I will end with this thought. Can human reasoning be perfect?

Just how do you expect us to answer that? Through human reasoning?

Either human reasoning is perfect or faulty. If it is perfect, then we can never arrive at the conclusion that it is faulty. If it is faulty, then we can never trust the conclusion that it is faulty to begin with! Thus, we assume that it is perfect, as that is the only position which really nets us any valid discussion.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-06-2006).]

I have a question! What do you have to do to get to heaven?

you have to suck my dick. do it or burn!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I have a question! What do you have to do to get to heaven?

We can't earn our salvation. The Holy Spirit leads us to faith and we accept Christ. Faith is a gift; as is salvation. Therefore we can either accept or reject it, not earn it.

More to come.. just not tonight.

I'll let Frank Zappa articulate my newly found reason for hatred:

"The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions."

-- Frank Zappa

"Get smart and I'll fuck you over -- sayeth The Lord."

-- Frank Zappa

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Just how do you expect us to answer that? Through human reasoning?



I laughed pretty hard.



Iam, that pretty much sums it up.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

I'll let Frank Zappa articulate my newly found reason for hatred:

"The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions."

-- Frank Zappa

"Get smart and I'll fuck you over -- sayeth The Lord."

-- Frank Zappa

Its easy to make fun of a silly God.

“Sure thing. Answer how your faith is not disgusting when it entails the worship and praise of a being that allows for needless horrors to fall upon mankind.

I say "needless horrors", given that if your god is omnipotent, nothing "needs" to happen. He could choose to teach us lessons without suffering having to occur. He can choose to create something that makes us closer to him, again without the use of suffering or pain, or even punishment. He could even eliminate the possibility of us ever doing anything evil, while at the same time preserving our free will (however illogical that may sound).”

The acceptance of God or a god requires one to believe in a deity that allows horrors to fall upon mankind. Therefore, you could easily apply your thought to any faith system that accepts an omnipotent hierarchy. Islam? Judaism? Are you calling all theistic faiths disgusting? If you want to focus on eastern thought then those horrors are only faults in an individuals “reality.” So, where does that leave me? With a faith in God that punishes sin. You say they are needless because nothing “needs” to happen. This is why I asked if you believed in the perfection of human reasoning. An illustration I want to draw is try to fabricate a new color. It can’t have any of the hues modern man can acknowledge- it must be completely new. It’s impossible. We can only use other known colors to make a different color. I believe that since God created hue then he is perfectly capable of making a new color for mans eyes. Yet, we can’t fathom or invision this. I think God has created the universe and all of its rules because it is the best possible set up for us to grow to love him. He has given us finite reasoning. In the garden, Adam and Eve wanted to know as God did. I think that once we have that knowledge we would be like God, just like the snake promised. Because they took the apple, Eden and mankind is stained with sin. The entire purpose of free will is that with our own volition we will love God. Forced love, is not love at all. If God made himself completely clear to us- then what type of faith would that be? Where is the journey? Where is the appreciation? Just like we can’t think of a new color- maybe we can’t think of a way to fully understand such a powerful idea.

The question you are asking is a very extensive philosophical question that would take a dialogue to answer. Let’s throw ideas back and forth.. thesis and antithesis until we possibly find truth? It’s an interesting thought.

The more I mature and glean from all that I have learned I realize how vast the grey area really is. Some things just cannot be answered black and white. My faith is a gift of God. I think that human reasoning must be flawed because we are fallible. Thus, I trust in my faith. I don’t ignore all logic, that would be foolish. Read any of Lee Strobles work and you’ll find there is plenty of evidence to support scripture. If scripture is true, then I have a point of reference in which to base my opinions. Plus, the true tenets of Judeo-Christian philosophy are far from disgusting. All religions with an ethics code have similar ideologies of morality. Thus, if my faith is incorrect I still would lead a generally kind and worldly acceptable life just by following the standards of Christianity. (I’m not saved by my works, yet they are the fruit of my faith.)

“No, you calling those statements "uneducated assumptions" is an uneducated assumption.”

On the contrary…

“Someone calling your faith "disgusting" is an opinion, and whether the opinion is uneducated is something you have absolutely no knowledge of.”

Yet, I am telling you that your opinion of Christianity is defective. Therefore, your opinion is uneducated because you obviously have a flawed premise. As I’ve said before- you’re entitled to your own opinion- yet, not your own facts. The essence of Christianity is not disgusting, period. Unless agape love is vile in some way?

“For example, I have arrived at the opinion that Christianity is disgusting through study of what Christianity entails. That is neither an assumption nor uneducated of me.”

Alright, you’ve studied Christianity- that’s fairly generic. For all I know you could have read a few Nietzsche quotes and now consider yourself a scholar of theology. Tell me, what studies have you done?

I have discovered the formula for a classic rust reply. A few sharp words and well chosen adjectives and thus appears a full fledged retort. “So please stop making these ridiculous statements you cannot even begin to substantiate.” It follows through all of your posts- just an aside.

“It's rather ludicrous for you to demand that we not use profanity while you're free to make baseless accusations through out the discussion.”

Vulgarity is a preference I wish to exclude. My accusations on the other hand are not baseless. I think you just made an uneducated assumption, Rust. Plus, you’ve made several claims that are ludicrous as well. One that “it’s adherents are required to worship and praise a being that allows countless horrors to fall upon the earth.” Neither God nor the church requires praise and worship. Moreover the second paragraph you ever wrote was vastly incorrect. “It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".” Again, perfect display of your formula. “immense ignorance” is nonsense. Still further, encouraging us to abandon logic is quite the contrary. Martin Luther asked all who opposed his writings to logically debase them. If they could do so successfully he promised to burn them. Yes, I have faith that there is a perfect reasoning I cannot comprehend- but that doesn’t mean the human logic in which God has granted me cannot allow me to see him. Way back in Romans Paul writes that God has made all of this evident, “so that no man may have excuse.” I think some scientific methods call for more logic be thrown away then Genesis. The sheer odds of evolution defy all reasoning. This is a good illustration: http://starsandcoffee.christian-astronomers.org/Library/odds_of_evolution.htm

“I'd much rather hear profane language, which serves to convey emotion and strong opinions, than allegations that provide nothing to discuss and are just insults in disguise”

Elaborate, what is the “insult in disguise?”

“I think the majority of the posters here would agree”

How are you allowed to assume what the majority of totse posters believe- when I propose a similar idea you call it an, “outrageous allegation.” I think if we polled the posters both of our assumptions would be correct. Yet, it’s hypocritical of you to attack me for assuming and then continue to do likewise a few posts onward. I’ll end my thought in your own words- “the only thing you need to concern yourself with is whether or not what I said was true, not with what the forum members would do in the hypothetical scenario you've conjured up”

The truth I want you to consider is that human reasoning is fallible.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



Islam? Judaism? Are you calling all theistic faiths disgusting?

First, the only two you mentioned are Abrahamic religions. Are these the only in which you're well versed?

Secondly, no. I believe he was asserting that the things done through your 'faith' and the atrocities committed through 'faith' are what makes your system disgusting. However, I think taking a look at "My New Perspective" would provide you some insight (or perhaps easily refutable material) about the absurdity of your actual belief system.



The entire purpose of free will is that with our own volition we will love God. Forced love, is not love at all.

This argument contradicts the concepts of omnipotence. According to which, God could easily reconcile the problem of 'forced love' not being love.



I don’t ignore all logic, that would be foolish. Read any of Lee Strobles work and you’ll find there is plenty of evidence to support scripture.

Haha, why don't you just say "I only reject the logic that contradicts my beliefs."



---I accidentally deleted the next portion I was going to talk about, but I remember it well enough to continue.... At this point you proceeded to tell him his opinions were 'defective' and 'uneducated' while also upholding the old adage that we are entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts. His opinion isn't 'defective' in any sense of the word at all, because opinions are subjective. I can't comprehend what a 'defective' opinion could be.



I have discovered the formula for a classic rust reply. A few sharp words and well chosen adjectives and thus appears a full fledged retort. “So please stop making these ridiculous statements you cannot even begin to substantiate.” It follows through all of your posts- just an aside.

Ad Hominem....



Yes, I have faith that there is a perfect reasoning I cannot comprehend- but that doesn’t mean the human logic in which God has granted me cannot allow me to see him.

I don't understand why someone would hold a belief they feel is something they can't comprehend. This makes me sad.

How does Jesus dying forgive all the sins of mankind?

it hurts my head to read theophany's posts.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



The acceptance of God or a god requires one to believe in a deity that allows horrors to fall upon mankind. Therefore, you could easily apply your thought to any faith system that accepts an omnipotent hierarchy. Islam? Judaism? Are you calling all theistic faiths disgusting?

If the cornerstone of a certain belief is the worship of a being which needlessly allows suffering to occur, then yes, I find that belief system to be utterly disgusting.

Not all "theistic religions" have a god which needlessly allows for suffering to occur, so I'm not calling them all disgusting.

quote: We can only use other known colors to make a different color. I believe that since God created hue then he is perfectly capable of making a new color for mans eyes. Yet, we can’t fathom or invision this. I think God has created the universe and all of its rules because it is the best possible set up for us to grow to love him. He has given us finite reasoning. In the garden, Adam and Eve wanted to know as God did. I think that once we have that knowledge we would be like God, just like the snake promised. Because they took the apple, Eden and mankind is stained with sin. The entire purpose of free will is that with our own volition we will love God. Forced love, is not love at all. If God made himself completely clear to us- then what type of faith would that be? Where is the journey? Where is the appreciation? Just like we can’t think of a new color- maybe we can’t think of a way to fully understand such a powerful idea.

You've given no answer at all; you're not dealing with the crux of the discussion. Is the suffering needless or not? I argue that it is, since it follows form his omnipotence that the suffering we endure is completely and utterly without need. If you agree that it is needless, then you must justify how allowing needless horror is not something that a reasonable human being could consider as disgusting.

Rhetorical questions aren't going to provide anything to discuss, especially not questions which have answers that do not help your argument in the least. For example, by virtue of god's omnipotence, god could make himself completely clear with us, while still reconciling that perfectly with faith - without undermining the existence of faith. He could also make forced love infinitely better than normal love. He could make it so that 'the journey' is a magnificent one, and that our appreciation of it were immense.

These rhetorical questions ignore the fact that nothing needs to be that way if an omnipotent being exists.

quote:

Plus, the true tenets of Judeo-Christian philosophy are far from disgusting. All religions with an ethics code have similar ideologies of morality. Thus, if my faith is incorrect I still would lead a generally kind and worldly acceptable life just by following the standards of Christianity. (I’m not saved by my works, yet they are the fruit of my faith.)

Yet your very faith considers those acts to pale in comparison to actually believing in a god which allows needless suffering to exist. Your very faith puts that belief on top of everything else, since it is that belief alone which guarantees you to be saved. Sola Scriptura, Soli Deo Gloria, Solo Christo, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide.

Thus, to your very own faith, whether you live a good life or not becomes an afterthought to whether or not you believe in the Judeo-Christian god. If we're to judge the morality of your faith, then we must certainly take special notice to it's most essential of beliefs, which is the belief in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior above all else.

Furthermore, when someone deems something else disgusting they are not necessarily saying that everything it does, or stands for is disgusting. To use a cliche example, you may believe that Hitler was disgusting, incorrect and/or "evil". Does that mean that you must also believe that everything Hitler did or believed in was disgusting, incorrect or "evil"? No. Hitler could very well have believed that 2 + 2 =4 (something which is not incorrect), he may have also helped an old lady cross the road (something which is not considered to be "evil" or disgusting), thus you may consider him to be any of those things, without also considering that every single thing he did or believed in falls into those categories as well ; similarly, when someone describes a belief system with an adjective such as "disgusting" he is not necessarily saying that everything that permeates that belief system is disgusting, only that a substantial part of it is.

quote:

On the contrary…



Really? Then please present the research you did in order to arrive at the conclusion that uttering an opinion is "uneducated".

quote:

Yet, I am telling you that your opinion of Christianity is defective. Therefore, your opinion is uneducated because you obviously have a flawed premise. As I’ve said before- you’re entitled to your own opinion- yet, not your own facts. The essence of Christianity is not disgusting, period. Unless agape love is vile in some way?

Something being "disgusting" is not a matter of fact, but a matter of subjective opinion. When I call your belief system disgusting, I'm not using "my own facts" but my own opinion. An opinion that I arrived at for a vast number of reasons - reasons which you don't know in their entirety. You do not know if my opinion comes for a lack of education on the subject or not. To claim that it comes from a lack of education, is to claim that you know exactly what I have and have not studied, which you obviously do not.

Moreover, you didn't just say this of my statement alone, but of any statement - which includes statements from people you don't even know. That alone serves to show how uneducated your assumption was, given that you are already saying their opinion comes from a lack of education, without even knowing who that person is or why he said that!

quote:

Alright, you’ve studied Christianity- that’s fairly generic. For all I know you could have read a few Nietzsche quotes and now consider yourself a scholar of theology. Tell me, what studies have you done?

Did you not claim that the opinion was uneducated? If you did, then you would first have to know my education on the subject in order to claim that I lack education in the first place.

Are you conceding that you don't know what I have studied, therefore, don't know whether my opinion stems from a lack of education or not?

I'm not going to waste my time telling you exactly what I have studied if that is irrelevant to proving my point. If you don't know what I have studied, then you don't know what I lack education on, and therefore, your statement that what I had said was uneducated, is merely an uneducated assumption itself.

quote:

Vulgarity is a preference I wish to exclude. My accusations on the other hand are not baseless.

They most certainly are. You have absolutely no knowledge of what I am educated on or what I am not, thus your claim that it would be an "uneducated assumption" is a baseless accusation. See above.

quote:I think you just made an uneducated assumption, Rust.

You think wrong.

quote:

Plus, you’ve made several claims that are ludicrous as well. One that “it’s adherents are required to worship and praise a being that allows countless horrors to fall upon the earth.” Neither God nor the church requires praise and worship. Moreover the second paragraph you ever wrote was vastly incorrect. “It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".” Again, perfect display of your formula. “immense ignorance” is nonsense. Still further, encouraging us to abandon logic is quite the contrary. Martin Luther asked all who opposed his writings to logically debase them. If they could do so successfully he promised to burn them. Yes, I have faith that there is a perfect reasoning I cannot comprehend- but that doesn’t mean the human logic in which God has granted me cannot allow me to see him. Way back in Romans Paul writes that God has made all of this evident, “so that no man may have excuse.” I think some scientific methods call for more logic be thrown away then Genesis. The sheer odds of evolution defy all reasoning. This is a good illustration:

http://starsandcoffee.christian-astronomers.org/Library/odds_of_evolution.htm (http: //starsand coffee.chr istian-ast ronomers.o rg/Library /odds_of_e volution.h tm)



1. Your faith requires that you believe that Jesus is the Lord and Savior of all humanity.

That fits quite nicely with the various definitions of praise and worship. Calling someone the one and only Lord of the universe, and the savior of all humanity is a statement of worship, and praise.

It is certainly not incorrect to consider Sola Fide as a doctrine with inherent worship and praise for Jesus Christ.

2. You've admitted to abandoning at least some logic in favor of "faith", which already proves my point. I was not suggesting that you do not use any single piece of logic (that would be ridiculous as we're conversing - an act which carries with it many rules of logic in order for us to understand each other in the first place); yet the fact remains that you do abandon logic in favor of faith, as you have just admitted to.

Case in point, the very fact that you somehow think that abiogenesis (i.e. life from non-life) is a part of the theory of evolution, shows how you've abandoned reason. Evolution deals with what happens to life after it comes about, not on how it came about.

Not to mention that the link itself fails miserably. It employs a number of logical fallacies.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB010.html



quote:

Elaborate, what is the “insult in disguise?”

Ignorantly calling my opinion uneducated is an insult.

quote:How are you allowed to assume what the majority of totse posters believe- when I propose a similar idea you call it an, “outrageous allegation.” I think if we polled the posters both of our assumptions would be correct. Yet, it’s hypocritical of you to attack me for assuming and then continue to do likewise a few posts onward.

1. I didn't assume anything when I said that. I readily admit that I have no way of knowing whether it is true, which is why I said I thought it would be the case. I didn't assume it was true, I merely expressed what I thought would be true.

2. Even if this were an assumption, which it is not, it would still fall short of your assumptions. I was merely expressing how outrageous it is for you to request that we exclude profanity from the discussion and while not seeing anything wrong with you making baseless statements as the ones you've made through out the discussion.



quote:

The truth I want you to consider is that human reasoning is fallible.

I already dealt with the fallacy in doing so. You want me to use human reasoning in order to consider human reasoning fallible - a ridiculous, self-refuting undertaking.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-07-2006).]

It amazes me how quickly you whip off a reply- I take an entire day, maybe several, to think through what you are saying. It's almost as if you haven't even considered what I write- you look through it to attack. If you don't call your responses attacks then we see things extremely differently.

I believe that our purpose for discussion is different. Thus, we can't possibly ever reach a consensus. Is that not futile?



I have a lot going on- Wednesday-Sunday. (Work, Art Studio, Trip to St. Louis, Phantom of the Opera- etc.) Thus, expect a full response by Monday.. maybe sooner depending on how my schedule lends itself. Also I do want to think about what you're saying.

All of these things are interesting, but I have a quick question, what do you as a Christian look forward to after death, Lauren is it? and what do you others who are against Christianity look to after death. I simply want to see the comparison. For I have found that meaning in life is hard to come by, therefore I am searching in all areas. Your sincere responses will be a definite help in my quest to find what it is that I should strive for, or why I should strive for anything at all.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

All of these things are interesting, but I have a quick question, what do you as a Christian look forward to after death, Lauren is it? and what do you others who are against Christianity look to after death. I simply want to see the comparison. For I have found that meaning in life is hard to come by, therefore I am searching in all areas. Your sincere responses will be a definite help in my quest to find what it is that I should strive for, or why I should strive for anything at all.

Got MSN, AIM, Yahoo? I'd like to add you!

Christian answer: Heaven, a place of peace and paradise, closeness to God in his Kingdom.

Possible Jewish answer: The Kingdom of God on Earth. Other Jews might answer that there is only death and no kingdom or afterlife.

Bhuddist answer: To either be reincarnated or to achieve ultimate release and tranquility through Nirvana. The end.

Hindu answer: To be reincarnated into something better hopefully.

Muslim answer: To be ressurected on the day of judgement and be admitted into paradise.

Agnostic answer: I don't know what to expect but whatever it is I hope its good.

Common Athiest answer: There is nothing to expect, you're dead, you cease to exist.

abrahimesker@hotmail.com

abrahimesker

abrahim_esker

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I already dealt with the fallacy in doing so. You want me to use human reasoning in order to consider human reasoning fallible - a ridiculous, self-refuting undertaking.



Rust, what do you believe in?

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

It amazes me how quickly you whip off a reply- I take an entire day, maybe several, to think through what you are saying. It's almost as if you haven't even considered what I write- you look through it to attack. If you don't call your responses attacks then we see things extremely differently.

I believe that our purpose for discussion is different. Thus, we can't possibly ever reach a consensus. Is that not futile?



I have a lot going on- Wednesday-Sunday. (Work, Art Studio, Trip to St. Louis, Phantom of the Opera- etc.) Thus, expect a full response by Monday.. maybe sooner depending on how my schedule lends itself. Also I do want to think about what you're saying.

1. I don't need more than 50 minutes to read, understand and consider a simple post. Especially not when I've heard similar posts countless times in he past, and the concepts being discussed are fairly basic ones.

So please concern yourself with whether what I say is true or not, and not whether my reply comes fast or not.

2. I'm not "attacking" you (save maybe for pointing out how ridiculous some of your requests are).

You asked for us to state why Christianity afronts us. I did. If you disagree, then it is you who are attacking the premise of my statement, and discussing why you think it is wrong. I would then be defending it, and discussing why I think it's correct, and why I think your statements are wrong. That's exactly what I have been doing.

P.S. Could you use UBB code to highlight either what you're quoting, or what you're replying with when you post? I know you've been using quotation marks to do so, but it still a bit difficult to keep track of what is what, even more so when the quote itself has quotation marks inside.

http://webboard.pinnaclesys.com/ubbcode.html

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-07-2006).]

Thanks Abrahim, but as I said I need a sincere answer. What do YOU think will happen? Even all of those possible answers you listed may not hold true for the people who hold those faiths. I just want something personal and real. In my line of thinking, if there is no God then we cease to exist if we die. Therefore, we all come to the same destiny. Now if that holds true then I better do all I can while I live, but everything I do is going to come to an end so why do it anyway? It makes everything meaningless in life. We as humans are no better than animals because niether us nor animals can stop what we are both about to become, which is dust and fertilizer in the ground. That is why I hope there is an afterlife or at least something that makes us as humans matter a little more than the fly I just swatted on the window. Maybe I am wrong. I still desire to know what each of you think. Especially you, Lauren, because I do not want to assume. I just want to know what each of you holds as truth.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Thanks Abrahim, but as I said I need a sincere answer. What do YOU think will happen? Even all of those possible answers you listed may not hold true for the people who hold those faiths. I just want something personal and real. In my line of thinking, if there is no God then we cease to exist if we die. Therefore, we all come to the same destiny. Now if that holds true then I better do all I can while I live, but everything I do is going to come to an end so why do it anyway? It makes everything meaningless in life. We as humans are no better than animals because niether us nor animals can stop what we are both about to become, which is dust and fertilizer in the ground. That is why I hope there is an afterlife or at least something that makes us as humans matter a little more than the fly I just swatted on the window. Maybe I am wrong. I still desire to know what each of you think. Especially you, Lauren, because I do not want to assume. I just want to know what each of you holds as truth.

All things are in cycles. This is an answer that I hold and has been repeated throughout history. I promise you there is no "God" as you might imagine, but that there is One God that you know well and interact with every moment even if you don't realize it.

Life should not be thought of meaningless, you have a function, we all have a function, we perform it willingly or unwillingly no matter what we do but the suggestion is to do what is best for yourself and assist yourself through assisting others too.

I believe that when you die, you are dead, and then you wake up, and then you testify against yourself for better or for worse, and then are rewarded the like of what you did in this life, positive or negative.

I was thinking to myself, what does it mean by "needless suffering"? Why is anything needed at all in Christianity? And then I realized...

In Christianity, everything revolves around meeting God's emotional desires. That's why it all started. Why did God create the universe? Presumably because he felt lonely, and he wanted people to love him and worship him. So is suffering actually needless if God desires justice by punishing sinners? No, it isn't. Because God needs it.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

I was thinking to myself, what does it mean by "needless suffering"? Why is anything needed at all in Christianity? And then I realized...

In Christianity, everything revolves around meeting God's emotional desires. That's why it all started. Why did God create the universe? Presumably because he felt lonely, and he wanted people to love him and worship him. So is suffering actually needless if God desires justice by punishing sinners? No, it isn't. Because God needs it.

Emo God.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:



Why did God create the universe? Presumably because he felt lonely, and he wanted people to love him and worship him. So is suffering actually needless if God desires justice by punishing sinners? No, it isn't. Because God needs it.

If he even is able to feel lonely (one could argue that he shoudn't if he were actually a perfect being) he has the power to fulfill that void without having us worship him (and therefore without having to punish those who don't). He could also make it so that justice could occur without the punishment of sinners - however illogical that may sound. Punishing sinners is not needed as a recourse. If a being is omnipotent then, by definition, he has the power to find more than one solution to a problem, including his emotional desires - hence, suffering is in fact needless.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

If he even is able to feel lonely (one could argue that he shoudn't if he were actually a perfect being) he has the power to fulfill that void without having us worship him (and therefore without having to punish those who don't). He could also make it so that justice could occur without the punishment of sinners - however illogical that may sound. Punishing sinners is not needed as a recourse. If a being is omnipotent then, by definition, he has the power to find more than one solution to a problem, including his emotional desires - hence, suffering is in fact needless.



Apparently God didn't want to fulfill his emotional desires that way. So it still is needed.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Apparently God didn't want to fulfill his emotional desires that way. So it still is needed.

No, it's certainly not needed as needed implies that there was no other recourse available. There were other recourses, he just 'decided he didn't want to fulfill his emotional desires that way'.

It was needless, and if we were to consider what you're saying as true, it would be very disgusting of him.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

No, it's certainly not needed, as needed implies that there was no other recourses available. There were other recourses, he just 'decided he didn't want to fulfill his emotional desires that way'.

It was needless, and if we were to considerwhat you're saying as true, it would be very disguting of him.

God didn't decide to want anything. He just has certain desires because that's part of who-he-is. (You go, girl!)

Therefore, the other recourses aren't really recourses at all, because God does not change. And that includes his mind.

You keep ignoring the fact that the other recourses must still be a possibility by virtue of god's omnipotence. If more than one recourse exists (which there must, by vurtue of his omnipotence) then you cannot say that one of the possible recourses is needed - it wouldn't be needed, since there are other possible resolutions to the problem.

What god wants or doesn't want is irrelevant to determining if something is needless or not.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You keep ignoring the fact that the other recourses must still be a possibility by virtue of god's omnipotence. If more than one recourse exists (which there must, by vurtue of his omnipotence) then you cannot say that one of the possible recourses is needed - it wouldn't be needed, since there are other possible resolutions to the problem.

What god wants or doesn't want is irrelevant to determining if something is needless or not.

No, just because God is omnipotent does not mean there are more recourses. God is static and unchanging, and therefore there is always only ONE option -- whatever's going to happen.

By static, I mean that even though from human eyes he appears to change through time, he's like an object in a space-time continuum. Only gabillions times more awesome!!!

Those characteristics (which you have no fucking way of knowing of, and which are merely ad-hoc modifications) are rendered irrelevant if he is to be considered omnipotent.

He possesses the ability to change, if he is omnipotent. He possesses the ability to make other recourses available, if he is to be considered omnipotent. Hence the point still stands.

Those recourses are possible, because they could certainly be made available by virtue of his omnipotence.

You see, this all goes back to what God wants, and fulfilling his emotional desires. It's all based around what we call "God's plan." His plan doesn't change, and it fulfills what he wants. There is no option to change. Because that's just the way it works.

As for apparently making up random ideas about God, I don't think so. It's at least somewhat comparable to what Christians believe. Although they'd say it in a much nicer way. The fact is that we cannot actually ever come to a conclusion about this because God is omnipotent, and therefore God is also above logic. And so I suggest we end it here before anyone gets their feelings hurt.

Thanks for discussing this, though. I had fun.

1. I never said they were random, I said they were ad-hoc modifications you are adding whenever your argument fails.

2. If god is above logic, then you have no way of knowing what his charesteristics are.

3. If he is not able to change his plan, then he is not omnipotent.

4. Why the fuck would anyones feelings get hurt?

Those are some nice questions/statements, and I have some nice answers to them (which would include using quotes from your earlier statements to prove my point), but I'm going to go ahead and end it now. Because I know otherwise we'll just be playing "who can make the last response?"

I guess I could respond to the last one, though. I noticed that you were making typos and cursing, so I assumed you were getting upset. Maybe I was wrong to assume, but I didn't want to make you angry at me. Okey dokey?

I used one curse, and you thought I was angry? Well, you thought wrong. I used it for emphasis, to point out how you really have no way of knowing what you were saying is true - it was merely speculation on your part. As for the spelling errors, they were the result of trying to respond to you as quickly as possible (I'm doing something else while I reply).

Trust me, you're not going to hurt my feelings because I couldn't care less what you (or pretty much anyone else really) thinks about me or what I say. At worse, you might annoy me a bit.

P.S. I'm not playing any game in order to 'get the last response'; I'm replying to what I think is incorrect in what you have said - whether in doing so I get the last response or not is irrelevant. If you don't want to pursue what you said any further then fine, but don't make such silly statements.

To be completely honest, my mind was getting tired, and the more tired it gets, the worse my arguments become. And I usually don't like repeating the same argument only to rephrase it because I always make it look stupid.

So now that I've been honest, no taunting. Okay?

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

To be completely honest, my mind was getting tired, and the more tired it gets, the worse my arguments become. And I usually don't like repeating the same argument only to rephrase it because I always make it look stupid.

So now that I've been honest, no taunting. Okay?

You didn't have an argument to begin with. Any amount of claiming what God's needs are doesn't render him any less omnipotent. Through omnipotence, EVERYTHING is possible. That means that he COULD very easily make it so that we don't have to suffer to fulfill his needs. Since he continues to have us suffer, even though he is omnipotent, is is then deduced that the suffering is needless... Unless, of course, his only need is for us to suffer, in which case he's a malicious God I'd refuse to worship anyway.

I think my original thought was just a redefinition of what is needed. If God desires something, then it is needed. It really didn't have anything to do with whether there was another way to do it or not. At least according to the definition of "needed" that I came up with.

Don't bother arguing about it, because I know that you have your own definition of "needed" that you are going by, which was much more relevant to whether God's actions were moral or not. It was just an attempt to play with words, I guess.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I swear I won't condemn everyone on this forum to hell or thump you with the Bible. I just am interested in discussion. I realize that I'm completely outnumbered- all I ask is that you are willing to intelligently search for truth with me. Isn't that the purpose of a debate anyways? I'm afraid this will come off incredibly pretentious and I'm sorry if it does. I suppose I just wanted to introduce myself to totse, and pray to GOD that I don't drown.

My opening topic for discussion is how Christianity affronts you. What has my faith done that would create so much animosity? I’m not completely ignorant to the churches falsehood and error. I just ask that you don’t judge a faith by the religion established around it. I promise that I will do the same to not judge your own beliefs.

-Lauren

Not just Christianity, but most organized religion (if not all) has been followed by bloodshed. Just look at the Crusades. One side believing God willed it, the other believing Allah willed it, and thousands of people died. (And innocent children too, I believe it was during the...third Crusade, children from Europe travelled across to the Middle East and where ill-equipped/unknowingly sold into slavery, etc.)

I don't hate Christianity, not completely. I just hate what has been done in the name of it. But that can be said about any organized religion, I suppose.

I really...don't mind Christianity that much. The religion itself preaches tolerance and respect (although sometimes turning the other cheek just gets you hit twice.), but I just don't like the divinity attached to it. I know that makes no sense. I just mean...couldn't Jesus have been a peaceful, loving man who preached a message of peace for others, and not have been the son of God? Couldn't he have just been a decent human being?

And also, the entire concept of the Holy Trinity baffles me. If Jesus were the son of God, and yet he was God in human form...then technically, did God not commit suicide when Jesus died on the cross? I know that Jesus was a seperate being, but it just confuses me, really. I don't know which to believe.

I'm not sure what else I can say to help you in answering your question, so I hope this will suffice.

quote:Originally posted by lisa_bear:

Not just Christianity, but most organized religion (if not all) has been followed by bloodshed. Just look at the Crusades. One side believing God willed it, the other believing Allah willed it, and thousands of people died.



For one, both sides believed in the same God, all Abrahamic religions recognize the same God. Truthfully, not all religions have caused bloodshed. Of course, adherents of various religions war. All people war, so this connection is nonsensical. However, I can only recognize the Abrahamic religions as having warred and shed blood specifically in the name of God. 'Pagans' generally had a great deal of tolerance for various beliefs in God(s), as did/do most far eastern religious traditions. The misconception that all or even most religions cause people to war stems from the lack of understanding of the multitude of religions. Most people are only aware of the three that happen to incite lots of bloodshed.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

For one, both sides believed in the same God, all Abrahamic religions recognize the same God. Truthfully, not all religions have caused bloodshed. Of course, adherents of various religions war. All people war, so this connection is nonsensical. However, I can only recognize the Abrahamic religions as having warred and shed blood specifically in the name of God. 'Pagans' generally had a great deal of tolerance for various beliefs in God(s), as did/do most far eastern religious traditions. The misconception that all or even most religions cause people to war stems from the lack of understanding of the multitude of religions. Most people are only aware of the three that happen to incite lots of bloodshed.

Even certain groups of Bhuddists Monks found cause to fight in China and Japan. Often Polytheistic religions and certain diety centered cults fought wars also in history from India to Egypt. It's true, its people who fight, religion is often an excuse. If there were no religions, people would still fight.

Omniscient and omnipotent... must be pretty boring, being able to do whatever you wanted whenever you wanted. At least, I've always thought that, after getting past the "Wow, I could quit the job I hate" part.

Maybe we're just a Sims game to God or something, lol.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Even certain groups of Bhuddists Monks found cause to fight in China and Japan. Often Polytheistic religions and certain diety centered cults fought wars also in history from India to Egypt. It's true, its people who fight, religion is often an excuse. If there were no religions, people would still fight.



You misunderstand. The monks in China, Shaolin monks, fought against bandits and they did so because it was a moral imperative for them to protect innocent people. The 'monks' in Japan weren't really monks. They were a psuedo Buddhist group of traditionalists who, again, fought for reasons unrelated to their religion.

Why do you differentiate between religions and cults??? *Confused* Anyways, polytheistic peoples who warred also did so for reasons unrelated to their religion.



The ONLY religious adherents who war because of their religion are those belonging to Abrahamic faiths. No other religious group has ever gone out slaughtering people in kill or convert campaigns. No other religious leaders have proselytized that infidels should be destroyed because God commandeth it. The bottom line is that these 3 religions are the only ones whose adherents fight solely for religious purposes.

Edit: fixed some coding.

[This message has been edited by Iam (edited 06-10-2006).]

The Aztecs made war for human sacrifices to their Gods.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

First, welcome to the forums. I see you're from Lee's Summit. I'm from Springfield myself, so not that far away.

Second, regarding my own personal animosity towards Christianity, I used to be a Christian. I was raised in a fundamentalist AoG/Baptist household, and bought into most Christian doctrine myself up until early this year (I'm 20). If you find that hard to believe, you can do a search on my username in this forum and there's probably still some threads in which I tried to argue for Christianity. I carry animosity towards Christians because I feel that they duped me. They duped me and they dupe themselves and each other, and their goal is to pursuade the world to surrender reason. To 'have faith' instead.

At the same time it saddens me. I look at Christians so steadfast in their faith. They say "I'm not going to let the devil tempt me! I know god exists! I can feel him! I can't imagine my life without him!" Holding onto faith in spite of contrary evidence is considered virtuous to Christians. It isn't virtuous! It's ignorance! But I remember I once thought that way. If there is such a thing as miracles, it is a miracle I was ever able to wake up and see what Christianity really is. Christianity binds people in shackles of guilt. Everyone is guilty of sin. We are all worthy of nothing but eternal damnation. Thank god's son (who is also, somehow, a part of god) for dying for a few days so that all of us wretched, evil sinners can go to heaven and worship and praise the great and mighty god forever and ever.

Blech...

So that's why you may (or already have) felt animosity towards Christianity from me. If you're curious (or have the guts) to inquire about what provoked my apostacy, feel free to ask. You claim you want the truth. Let me tell you...the truth hurts, but at the same time, it sets you free. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

edit: Abrahim, you punk! I emailed you a day or two ago. Want to talk to everyone but the E-Man, eh? http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



i am a catholic but i see no point in preaching the message of god to others when they dont give a flying fuck let em burn!!!

Hello, I am simply going to give a link that shows where Christianity got its roots. This is a good read for everyone on here as it shows that Christianity is simply a faith made up of older religions and is not very realistic.

http://www.freewebs.com/see_the_truth/Revelation.html

As for my personal animosity, please read my post of 'Thesis on Organized Religion'

-My contact information: enlightend1_truth@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

The Aztecs made war for human sacrifices to their Gods.

Yeah, they and the Vikings were the only exceptions to my statements that I could think of. However, we don't know for sure that the Aztecs fought primarily to capture and sacrifice to the Gods. We only know that those captured were sacrificed. The native peoples all over the region were highly aggressive, and the Aztecs were a very nationalistic people. This alone causes war. There is no reason to believe, historically, that their prime motivation for war was sacrifice.

With the Vikings , I sort of think that they were a warring people and then later decided that a way to promote vigor and zeal on the battlefield was to claim that dying in battle would make you achieve Valhalla. If my assertion is correct, that would mean that it was not because of the Valhalla that they warred, but because of war that they made Valhalla.

Rust, I will never be able to completely answer your question in full certainty. I do not claim to understand God's will in it's totality. Therefore, I can not speak on the behalf of why he chose to make the world in this way. If that makes Christianity vile to you, then so be it.

Well you join the rank of all Christians who have tried to reconcile the problem, as they too have all failed to do so.

My question is really an extension of Epicurus' argument, which he made before Christianity ever came about and has remained unanswered since then.

There is no answer; no possible justification which stands up to scrutiny. If god is omnipotent then he can resolve the problem of evil and suffering. That he allows us to experience both evil and suffering is nothing short of disgusting.

P.S. Your religion doesn't compel you to say "so be it" to those who argue that your religion is utterly disgusting, it compels you to convince them otherwise no matter the trouble and no matter the hardship. We're talking about the possible salvation or damnation of a soul, an eternity of either suffering or bliss, and you so quickly give up?

Rust, apparently he, like his God, doesn't care if we suffer.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

Rust, apparently he, like his God, doesn't care if we suffer.

She* Also, it's not my responsibility to make you believe. Nor is it a possibility. That is up to you and the Lord.

quote:Originally posted by RustYour religion doesn't compel you to say "so be it" to those who argue that your religion is utterly disgusting, it compels you to convince them otherwise no matter the trouble and no matter the hardship. We're talking about the possible salvation or damnation of a soul, an eternity of either suffering or bliss, and you so quickly give up?

Again, your soul is not my responsibility. You have clearly made your decision. The question you ask is a paradox which cannot be completely answered. Thus, if that is your requirement for faith then it will never happen. Making our discussion futile.

You claim to have studied my faith, yet you continually misunderstand the purpose of my witness. The word "Amen" in essence means "So be it." So I'm positive my religion can "compel" me to say such a phrase. It's perfectly acceptable to resign to futility. Hence the the thought of a hardened heart. I have prayed for you that you might one day understand my message- but that's all I can do. You have surrendered yourself to earthly reasoning- God can not be explained in such a box. You see error in this. So, where is the discussion? It's a moot point. So ,if you want to place me on your wall of "failed" rebuttals- go ahead.

Though, I still am curious to know what training you've had in Christian dogma?



[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Again, your soul is not my responsibility.

It is your god's, yet he calls for you to spread his word to everyone, not just those who make it easy for you. You are compelled to both spread the word, and to represent the Lord well as a Christian. You're obviously not doing so by refusing to defend your faith in the face of opposition.

You giving up, when eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell is at stake, is disgusting in and of itself.

quote: You have clearly made your decision.

My "decision" is to hold the position which seems more reasonable. You are free to change my mind if you are able to answer the question. In essence, I didn't make my decision, substantial evidence and/or logical arguments do that for me. You've failed to give any.

quote:

The question you ask is a paradox which cannot be completely answered. Thus, if that is your requirement for faith then it will never happen.

1. That should be the requirement of any reasonable human being, or are you suggesting that a reasonable human being would praise and worship a god which needlessly allows suffering to exist?

2. The "paradox" was created the moment your god claimed to be omnipotent. How is it my fault that his claims are unreasonable, and unjustifiable by any possible means? If my faith 'will never happen' because of a paradox your god needlessly allows to continue, then he's not deserving of praise for the aforementioned reasons.

3. If you cannot answer the question, then saying that your religion is a disgusting one for the given reasons remains a perfectly valid statement. You've failed to refute it as a valid reason to be repulsed by your religion.

quote:

You claim to have studied my faith, yet you continually misunderstand the purpose of my witness. The word "Amen" in essence means "So be it." So I'm positive my religion can "compel" me to say such a phrase. It's perfectly acceptable to resign to futility. Hence the the thought of a hardened heart. I have prayed for you that you might one day understand my message- but that's all I can do. You have surrendered yourself to earthly reasoning- God can not be explained in such a box. You see error in this. So, where is the discussion? It's a moot point. So ,if you want to place me on your wall of "failed" rebuttals- go ahead.

1. It is is ridiculous to think that just because the word "Amen" has been loosely translated as "So be it", it means that a Christian is not compelled to spread the word of Christ and defend Christianity.

Not only did the word have a different meaning in Hebrew, but it is mostly used to re-affirm what was previously said; certainly not as a cop-out for lazy Christians.

2. There is no futility here, unless you are admitting that you cannot answer the question. I have only 'surrendered to earthly reasoning', because there is nothing to convince me that I should do otherwise; you could attempt to convince me, yet you apparently refuse to do so.

quote:

Though, I still am curious to know what training you've had in Christian dogma?

Like I said before, since you claimed that my opinion was uneducated then it must mean that you know what I have studied or not.

If you didn't know, yet still made comment anyway, then it seems you'll have to stay curious.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-14-2006).]

Just out of curiousity, Rust, what have been your beliefs through the years?

I've always wondered what your background was.

Well I was raised Catholic. I never actually in it to any great extent - I was more of a theist who participated in some Catholic rituals, mostly because of tradition.

From there, I started those theistic beliefs until I became an atheist.

quote: “It is your god's, yet he calls for you to spread his word to everyone, not just those who make it easy for you. You are compelled to both spread the word, and to represent the Lord well as a Christian. You're obviously not doing so by refusing to defend your faith in the face of opposition.”

I have spent nearly a month defending against your unnecessarily harsh retorts. And in spite of fair warning as well.

quote: “You giving up, when eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell is at stake, is disgusting in and of itself.”

I haven’t given up on you. Hence prayer and my continual response. Yet, I refuse to play this game of rhetoric. You know perfectly well that I am unable to fully explain God’s will. Thus, your requirement in order to not consider my faith disgusting is unreasonable. We will always return to that point and it will always remain a difference in our ideologies. I cannot without refute fully verify God. Nor can you discredit his existence completely. Our opinions both require faith. You have faith there isn’t a god- I have faith there is.

quote: I didn't make my decision, substantial evidence and/or logical arguments do that for me. You've failed to give any.

You claimed that the evidence I hold to in Strobles writings is only valid because it supports my faith. Yet, your evidence must also hold to that same standard. Why is it so unwise for me to trust in that form of logic?

quote: “1. That should be the requirement of any reasonable human being, or are you suggesting that a reasonable human being would praise and worship a god which needlessly allows suffering to exist?”

-Again, we are comparing human reasoning to God’s will. Man cannot totally define God. Nor, can he expect God to hold to the same standards and limitations of his own creation.

quote: “2. The "paradox" was created the moment your god claimed to be omnipotent. How is it my fault that his claims are unreasonable, and unjustifiable by any possible means? If my faith 'will never happen' because of a paradox your god needlessly allows to continue, then he's not deserving of praise for the aforementioned reasons.”

Its your fault that you trust completely in your own logic. There is the possibility that it is flawed. Thus, there is the possibility that your entire premise is flawed. Where does that leave you?

quote: “3. If you cannot answer the question, then saying that your religion is a disgusting one for the given reasons remains a perfectly valid statement. You've failed to refute it as a valid reason to be repulsed by your religion.”

Valid to you maybe- but I don’t think it is wise to label an entire faith disgusting. That’s an awfully general assertion.

quote: 1. It is is ridiculous to think that just because the word "Amen" has been loosely translated as "So be it", it means that a Christian is not compelled to spread the word of Christ and defend Christianity. Not only did the word have a different meaning in Hebrew, but it is mostly used to re-affirm what was previously said; certainly not as a cop-out for lazy Christians.

My question would be, am I not spreading the word of Christ? I said “so be it” because what else can be done? I don’t think it’s productive to sit and argue this into the ground. I have an idea of what a fruitful conversation is and the dialogues we have shared are far from it. We have different presuppositions that will most likely never change. I have planted the seed- it’s up to the Holy Spirit to do the rest. If you still think my faith is vile- again, so be it. Also, Amen can work in the context I chose to use it. Secondly, how dare you call me a lazy Christian. That makes you extremely hypocritical in my eyes being that you are constantly accusing me of making “baseless accusations.” I have worked extremely hard in responding to your callous retorts with both kindness and respect. You accused me of Ad Hominem once- when truly, it was just an aside. (Useless I’ll own to- but an aside nonetheless.) And you wonder why I wish to end our discussions?

quote:2. There is no futility here, unless you are admitting that you cannot answer the question. I have only 'surrendered to earthly reasoning', because there is nothing to convince me that I should do otherwise; you could attempt to convince me, yet you apparently refuse to do so.

I have clearly outlined how our discussion if fruitless. I have yet to refuse you any response that I can discuss. I just admit that I cannot satisfactorily answer your first question. Does that destroy Christianity?

quote:Like I said before, since you claimed that my opinion was uneducated then it must mean that you know what I have studied or not.

Your statement was uneducated. All that proves is that you didn’t know what you were talking about on one subject. If I have said otherwise, then I have misspoken. I don’t understand why you are avoiding my question. This reply is just sardonic banter.



[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-14-2006).]

Your religion is absurd.

For example (these are points from the origins and civil librities thread) :

First of all if you believe in creationism or ID you need to present evidence of it.

"Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it.



How the light traveling distances farther than possible in the amount of time given by the creationist model, could occur.



Why the universe is constantly changing and new stars and galaxies are being born at this time if the universe was born in about it's present state 6000 years ago?



Why no non-creationist/non-religous scientific source agrees with your age of the universe?



Please answer these questions with the mathematics backing up your responces, and or claims.



Thank you."

If you don't believe in this part of the bible and think it is symbolic who is to say the entire bible, concept of heaven and hell, and life after death isn't as well symbolic.

I would like to also repost something written by Enlightend1_Truth because it is a very well written example of the reason many people hate christianity.

Before going on, hating something does not mean you loved it once, I hate Nazism, I have never loved it, I have child molesters, I have never loved them, do not interpret our feelings toward your religion as once loving christianity but somehow lost faith.

I didn't one day lose faith, I just gained truth, and it replaced my faith with logic.

Unless this happens to you, you can never understand.

Here is the post by Enlightend1_Truth:

quote:Originally posted by Enlightend1_Truth:



This is something I wrote that you should all read. Creationalism is wrong in many ways including but not limited to inmorality, unintelligence, and pushing ignorant humans into a conudrum of cult like propaganda. Christian Creationalism has many flaws, my paper simple shows the flaw of organized religion and the Bible itself. Feel free to email me or add me to msn.

Organized Religion: The Fall of Intelligence

By

Draconius

June 2006

Thesis of Organized Christian Religion

Organized Religion: The Fall of Intelligence

Religion and theology on Earth is widespread with many colorful ideas about why our world works the way it does. Due to this fact, not everyone could possibly be correct, and some believe that none are correct at all. One fact can be certain however; asking questions about everything is the pathway to truth. In this article I do not ask that anyone simply stop believing how they may, only that they should stop and think- is this at all possible, could there be a better way to live my life to the fullest?

Being raised Christian, I can say I am no stranger to their way of thinking. I did not simply decide one day to step away from the church and its following, on the contrary, I began by asking questions. For years now I have been questioning absolutely everything, for questioning is the pathway to truth.

For over two thousand years, Christian philosophers and worshipers alike have agreed that their God is All-Powerful, All-Good, and All-Knowing. To question and therefore disprove this basic ‘fact’ of Christianity is a simple task, all one must do is define these three words. The answer to the question we seek is in the statement itself.

First, we will define the idea of an All-Powerful being. To be All-Powerful is to be in control of all objects, alive and inanimate, simultaneously with no exceptions.

Second, we define All-Good as a being completely incapable of evil. To be All-Good is to be only right and just, without flaw. A being, a god, who is All-Good must be, and is, perfect in every way.

Finally, the attribute of being All-Knowing is to be in control of all knowledge as well as being aware of all happenings and actions as well as thoughts. To be All-Knowing is to see all and know all.

Separately these attributes make a fine god indeed. Yet together the mixture is not possible in any form. If we look but do not see, all seems well and good. Although if we begin to question and think intelligently and individually, we see the impossibility of this equation.

Subsequently, by using our human knowledge, we find that the traits of All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Good cannot exist in the same place, or being, simultaneously due to the fact that the creatures of Earth, namely humans, are not ‘Evil-less’, so to speak.

The Christian God, who is said to have created all life and objects on Earth, then cannot be a god who is in control of all objects, and yet only capable of good deeds. If the Christian God did indeed create all living creatures, this God cannot be all the ideas in which most Christians take as truth. Therefore, the Christian God is an impossible being in the form all church-going Christians believe it to be.

Therefore, perhaps it is not the Christian who is wrong in being misled, but instead it is the unquestioning churchgoer. As the American Philosopher Thomas Paine once wrote, “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish (Islamic), appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.” (Paine, Age of Reason). To those who consider the Church to be of truth only, and directly from the Bible itself, I ask that these people consider where this unquestionable knowledge comes from.

In the case of the Christian Bible, it is said that the writer had divine inspiration, or help from God or an angel. The fact is that no one knows who wrote the gospels under the pen names of Paul, Mark, and so on. Although the Bible has many wonderful ideas on how one person should treat another, this still does not make any of the stories true. All the stories and tales of the Bible are hearsay from those around Jesus Christ, but none of the books are actually written by Jesus.

Furthermore, not all the gospels were put into the final copy of the Bible; in fact church officials voted down most. Some 92 gospels were deemed unworthy because they did not teach as the church wanted to teach. Due to this, what Bible-believing Christians see as truth now could have simply been voted down by this ‘council’, and a different idea incorporated.

In order to show the truly devastating effect that the church has on the world, I wish to bring to mind the Christian Crusades of the middle ages. Many historians believe the death toll of all the wars to be in the hundreds of millions including Christians, Muslims, Jews, and so many more innocent people. The battle cry of the Christian raiders became "Deus vult!” (God wills it). In a speech by the pope at the time of the war, he stressed the importance of God’s will of the war against the Muslims. A segment of his speech shown below represents the lies the pope tells the people in order to build the ranks.

"God himself will lead them, for they will be doing His work. There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy. Let none hesitate; they must march next summer. God wills it!” (A History of the Christian Church, Williston Walker)

Perhaps there is also error in the Bible itself and not only in the established church. The Bible has many stories of the good deeds of God and Jesus Christ, but how many of these stories have base? Many of the Bible’s stories actually contradict each other, as we shall see.

The story of Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for humanity has its flaws that are quite obvious if we would only look deeper into the message. The creators of this myth make it increasingly obvious that their Almighty God himself is capable of being hoodwinked by Satan. These writers show that the devil has tricked God into believing that he must sacrifice either the whole of his creation, or himself in the form of a man- Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, this shows how the ‘Evil One’ has triumphed while the Almighty has fallen. This idea, although a mainstream belief, is directly contrary to the idea that God is All-Knowing and All-Powerful. Was the only way that our sins could be redeemed was by the brutal and painful death of Christ? He was nailed to a cross with nails in his wrists, causing great duress. This man, this supposed God, died in great pain for your sins. Could not the great All-Knowing God devise some alternative method for dealing with the ‘Great Deceiver’?

Yet another fault in Christian dogma comes through the story of the Garden of Eden and the Apple of Knowledge. We can see that God tells Adam and Eve to not eat of the apples on the tree- God told Adam not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge and that it was wrong to do so (Genesis 2:17). To eat from the Tree of Knowledge gives one knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil (Genesis 3:5). With the apple representing knowledge, it is clear that God fears what may come if his new creation gains too much knowledge. This idea of the church fearing knowledge is shown even in more recent times. In 391, Christians burned down one of the world's greatest libraries in Alexandra, said to have housed 700,000 scrolls. [The New Columbia Encyclopedia, 61, and Eisler, The Chalice and the Blade.] Also, in modern times, the church has denounced science in the fields of genetics, stem cell research, and many more fascinating fields of study based on imagined rules and morals. This fact furthers the point of the Church denouncing knowledge in favor of blind faith.

Then, after this great making of the world and all creatures in it, the Bible tells us that God rested. Why would an omnipotent being need to rest? I can see no explanation. After all, God is thought to be All-Powerful and should not require rest in any manner. In fact, God simply should have snapped his fingers to bring the perfect world into existence instead of taking the sixth day course of creation in which he did. When God rested though, he defied the laws of logic. A being who cannot get tired, nor weak, nor sleepy - by his implications of omnipotence - would not need to rest or sleep. However, resting on the seventh day was exactly what God did, something completely unnecessary and in retrospect, absolutely ridiculous.

Some facts of the Bible are quite sickening in themselves if we would only see what we are reading. Such instances are the enslavement of Africans or animals (Exodus 21:2-6; Leviticus 25:44-46), the selling of daughters (Exodus 21:7), the killing of witches (Exodus 22:18), the killing of heretics (Exodus 22:20), the killing of violators of the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14-15, Exodus 35:2), the killing of children who curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9), the forcing of raped women to marry their rapists (Deuteronomy 22:28), the killing of adulterers (Leviticus 20:10), the killing of blasphemers (Leviticus 24:16), and the killing of unchaste women (Deuteronomy 22:20-21).

Let us then investigate further into the Bible itself in order to show more the fallacy in it. God made "light" on the first day (Genesis 1:3), but then made the Sun and stars later (Genesis 1:16). The light, as we know, comes from the chemical and atomic reactions of Hydrogen and Helium in the Sun. These chemical and atomic reactions cause energy to come out of the Sun in the form of light. God cannot create light and then create the sun a day later. They are intrinsically one and the same thing. One may argue that God created the concept of light, but why would God then have taken a day to invent the concept of sky and ground before physically bringing them into existence, as well as the concepts of vegetation, the birds and the fish, and the land creatures? However, light should not need to be created if God will eventually create the Sun days later. And if light exists without the Sun, then the creation of the moon, the Sun, and the stars are completely unnecessary. Even if God did create the concept of light on the first day, would it not seem logical to then build the concept of light - the Sun and the stars - the day after, instead of then creating the sky and the ground, the vegetation, and then the concept of light?

Furthermore, we find that the creation of man and woman has been arranged quite strangely indeed. God, according to the first chapter of Genesis, made man and woman (Genesis 1:27) at one time, but according to the second chapter of Genesis, there was a time when man didn't have a suitable helper (Genesis 2:20) and a time when woman was created after the existence of man (Genesis 2:22). These are contradictory versions of the story of creation, and both cannot be correct. In one version, man and woman were created at once in the same day, whereas in the other, man was created, God waited around a while (he let man name all the creatures), and then he created woman.

With more research we find that the Bible talks about four rivers coming from the one river in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:10). The rivers are the Pishon (Genesis 2:11), Gihon (Genesis 2:13), Tigris (Genesis 2:14), and Euphrates (2:14). Reality is the only thing that disagrees with the Bible. There is no Pishon or Gihon River. The Tigris River starts in Turkey and goes into Iraq, where it finally empties out into the Gulf of Oman. The Euphrates River starts in Turkey and goes through Syria, and then to Iraq where it finally joins the Tigris and empties out into the Gulf of Oman. Of course, the Gihon and Pishon rivers could simply be names for rivers that we today know by other names, but this is not factual, as there are no other rivers within the area of the Tigris and Euphrates. There are no four rivers leading off into the distances. There is actually only one river that breaks off into the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

To show that the Bible itself could be a symbolism for many things, as many Christians believe, I will show an example. A Christian Theologian could say that a particular verse means something symbolically, but once one verse is molded to mean metaphorically, symbolically, or any form that is not literal, all verses of the Bible could be said to be meant in the same way. For example, if you say that Adam and Eve didn't literally live and that they were a symbol of civilization's grass roots, then would it not also be equally logical to say that God didn't really exist, but he was just a symbol for the dogma and superstition of the people of that time, explaining things (the existence of the Universe, the snakes crawling, pain during pregnancy, the stars, the Sun, etc.) that they could not find out through the science of their time? In fact, I could say that Christ didn't really die on the cross. That was just a symbol for things getting better in the future. Christ didn't really die for your sins. That was just a metaphor to demonstrate the self-centeredness of the people of that time. Heaven, also, is no actual truth. It is symbolic of what we all hope and try to achieve to be. Clearly, once you say one part of the Bible stands as a symbol; nothing stops others from declaring other parts of the Bible as symbols.

I will say this of Faith; it has been the foundation of every religion, every cult, every sect, every religious terrorist organization that desired to gain advocates whose will greatly exceeded their intelligence. When a religion asks that its followers believe all that it declares, and to do so without evidence, it speaks volumes of the intent and meaning of that religion. These churches and mosques, they will keep their followers in the shadows of millenniums past.

Although many ideas in this short essay are controversial and opposing common belief, the purpose behind it is to stimulate thought through individualism. Those who do not think for themselves are not free and are not living life to the fullest everyday. The church oppresses these people’s lives and this is an unacceptable fault. If nothing else has been accomplished in these few pages, I hope that the reader has been stimulated enough to begin his/her own questioning and reasoning of all things in order to rid the mind of painful ignorance and to find the truth in all things.

Contact Information:

Email at enlightend1_truth@hotmail.com

He or she accuratly sums up why many of us see your religion as being disgusting and illogical. Lack of scientific evidence alone makes it very questionable.

Thank you for at least not fleeing the thread upon opposition like many other christians on this site. I respect that. On the other hand you need to take a moment to consider maybe, just maybe, you could be wrong. If you can accept the fact that you could be wrong, just maybe, then your one step toward free thought. Blind faith is just plain ignorant, so unless you can provide some proof, some radical evidence to these radical claims, then I will not see eye to eye with you.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Blind faith is just plain ignorant, so unless you can provide some proof, some radical evidence to these radical claims, then I will not see eye to eye with you.

Thank you for respecting my obstinancy. Your questions are answerable if you just give me the time to respond. (Something I don't have a lot of.) I apologize if it takes a week to fully address your response.

However, I really don't want this to turn into a creation/evolution debate. I think that would get us off track. Yet, if thats what you need to start considering the goodness of my faith then I am willing to oblige. I promise a full response as soon as I possibily can.



[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



I have spent nearly a month defending against your unnecessarily harsh retorts. And in spite of fair warning as well.

It has been 15 days, and with only a handful of replies. By your reasoning, if it had taken you 5 months to give me one reply, you would have been defending Christianity for 5 months. Certainly we shouldn't consider the overall time it has taken you to reply.

As for my harsh retorts, I don't feel they have been harsh in any way. There is no other word to describe a religion that worships a god such as yours; it's disgusting. Moreover, in your posts you've managed to called me harsh, imply that I'm narrow-minded, call me uneducated, and put words in my mouth yet I've never done any of those things to you. Your comment is a laughable one when we consider what you've done.

quote:

I haven’t given up on you. Hence prayer and my continual response. Yet, I refuse to play this game of rhetoric. You know perfectly well that I am unable to fully explain God’s will. Thus, your requirement in order to not consider my faith disgusting is unreasonable. We will always return to that point and it will always remain a difference in our ideologies. I cannot without refute fully verify God. Nor can you discredit his existence completely. Our opinions both require faith. You have faith there isn’t a god- I have faith there is.

The requirement is not unreasonable in the least, because that's exactly what your god intends for us to do! If your god expects a human being to believe in him, then undoubtedly the issue of whether or not he is worthy of that belief or worship must be resolved by that human being. If god needlessly allows for horrors to exist, then it is up to human beings to reconcile that vile act with belief/worship of that god. You've failed to reconcile that. You've failed to resolve the issue at hand, which is a fundamental one if we are to worship or believe in your god. If it is impossible, then that is even more reason not to believe in your religion, because it provides absolutely no reasonable means of reconciling that problem.

quote:

You claimed that the evidence I hold to in Strobles writings is only valid because it supports my faith. Yet, your evidence must also hold to that same standard. Why is it so unwise for me to trust in that form of logic?

I never said such a thing. In fact, I never once even mention Strobles. You're putting words in my mouth. You can go back to my replies to verify for yourself.



quote:

-Again, we are comparing human reasoning to God’s will. Man cannot totally define God. Nor, can he expect God to hold to the same standards and limitations of his own creation.

I'm not comparing anything. I'm saying that it would be something a reasonable human being would want resolve before believing/worshiping a god which needlessly allows evil to exist.

quote:

Its your fault that you trust completely in your own logic. There is the possibility that it is flawed. Thus, there is the possibility that your entire premise is flawed. Where does that leave you?

It's certainly not my fault if that's the only thing that has been shown to be accurate in this world. You've yet to show me how abandoning logic is at all beneficial, or correct. In fact, you've done the opposite, you've used logic in your replies, which shows how you are dependant of it from some things, but conveniently abandon it when you reach a point where your beliefs are sounding utterly ridiculous.

quote:

Valid to you maybe- but I don’t think it is wise to label an entire faith disgusting. That’s an awfully general assertion.

It's not an 'awfully general assertion' if it is based on the central tenet of that faith. I find it immensely disgusting that not only does Christianity hold that tenet, but it boasts of it so proudly. That's neither a generality, nor an assertion.

quote:

My question would be, am I not spreading the word of Christ? I said “so be it” because what else can be done? I don’t think it’s productive to sit and argue this into the ground. I have an idea of what a fruitful conversation is and the dialogues we have shared are far from it. We have different presuppositions that will most likely never change. I have planted the seed- it’s up to the Holy Spirit to do the rest. If you still think my faith is vile- again, so be it. Also, Amen can work in the context I chose to use it. Secondly, how dare you call me a lazy Christian. That makes you extremely hypocritical in my eyes being that you are constantly accusing me of making “baseless accusations.” I have worked extremely hard in responding to your callous retorts with both kindness and respect. You accused me of Ad Hominem once- when truly, it was just an aside. (Useless I’ll own to- but an aside nonetheless.) And you wonder why I wish to end our discussions?

1. This has little to do with our dialogues, and more to do with your refusal to answer a questions which are possible for you to answer.

2. The assertion that you're lazy is not baseless if you are so quick to abandon what is asked of you to do. No matter how much you want to paint it as unfruitful, the discussion is far from that. It has fruits, they are just ones that are difficult for you to reap, or too bitter for you to taste.

3. Saying that my statement was uneducated is an ad-hominem attack. Calling it an "aside" is merely your way of downplaying what you've said. If I were to say, "Hey, as an aside, I think you're a moron", would that be any less insulting? Of course not.

quote:

I have clearly outlined how our discussion if fruitless. I have yet to refuse you any response that I can discuss. I just admit that I cannot satisfactorily answer your first question. Does that destroy Christianity?

You've certainly done that. I've already pointed out various things you can answer, and you've failed to answer those anyway.

quote:

Your statement was uneducated. All that proves is that you didn’t know what you were talking about on one subject. If I have said otherwise, then I have misspoken. I don’t understand why you are avoiding my question. This reply is just sardonic banter.



You can't say that it was uneducated, if you don't know what I have studied or not; especially not if you've yet to refute the statement! You've admitted that you cannot even refute the statement, yet it is somehow "uneducated"? Ridiculous.

As for your question, you should ask the little bird whose allegedly warned you of my "harsh" retorts. He or she will likely tell you that I usually don't bother answering personal questions when they are irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Not only is my education on the subject completely unimportant, but your statements have made it unnecessary; for you to label what I have said as "uneducated", you would either have to prove that what I said was wrong, which you've obviously not done as it was an opinion and you've admitted to not being able to answer it, or would need to know what I have or haven't been educated on.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-15-2006).]

It is, and has always been, the action of the of the answerless Christians to assert that their lack of answers is caused by God's ineffibility and therefore our lack of understanding. If God created us with reasoning and nature that makes it illogical to believe in his own existence, and then expects us to find him, believe in his correct qualities, and either act or think in accordance with his wishes or be damned for an eternity.... Your 'God' is a malicious one. If the problems posed here cannot be answered because 'no one knows' God, then how can one be expected to choose the right path (while suffering) or suffer forever?

I recommended you check out my previous post, "My New Perspective" and try as you might to refute my reasoning. You have not. Whether because you're so 'pressed for time,' or because you found it impossible to refute, I don't know. The recommendation is still up.

She spent over a month fighting retorts, what have we learnt about Christianity? I want her to TEACH US Christianity, and make it reasonable and understandable!

Teach Christianity?

"1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.

2. Christians as a group; Christendom.

3. The state or fact of being a Christian." (Dictionary.com) http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Definition 1 said “life and teachings of Jesus.” Okay. There’s a lot to cover, so a basic synopsis (of the teachings) is this:

-Love your enemies and do good to those that hate you. Pray for people who mistreat you.

-Treat others as you would be treated.

-Do not judge others

-Do not commit adultery on your spouse

-Pray for those who hate you

-Forgive ALL who sin against you (most people forget that, lol)

-You cannot serve two masters (God/money)

There’s a lot more that I’m not getting into, though. As for the other two definitions, I think that the basic summary of “Christianity” basically answers that.

Now, a basic summary of the life of Jesus: he was born, he visited Jerusalem when he was 12, then it skips to his 30s. There’s a lot of controversy over that bit.

He gathered 12 apostles and countless other followers before he turned 33. He also performed miracles and taught people in this time frame. He then was crucified and, three days later, it is believed he rose from the dead. Weeks after that, he ascended into heaven.

I’m pretty sure none of that was new to anyone. That's the basic jist (or gist...) of any "Christian" religion. Now from there it begins to unravel into the various sects that are known today. Every sect has its own outlook on the Bible and its own traditions and viewpoints. Essentially, people will fight about the religion, overlooking the peaceful, non-fighting bits in the message.

Faith and religion are not identical. A lot of people seem to forget that. You can teach religion. You can't exactly teach faith in whatever you worship--be it a fish, a God, etc. But you can live out your personal creed, your morals, regardless of your religion. And that shows you can think for yourself, which is always a good thing. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

1) A Century of Carnage

2) Intellectual Sloth

3) If It Weren't For the Judaic Faith I would Have My Foreskin, And Christianity Came From Judaism

4) Refer To #2

Those are the blanket problems I have with Christianity. If you wish for me to explain any of them, I would be happy to.

LOL !!!

Shall I post the log of you and I talking about a month ago, in which you claimed you had decided you were going to convert to Christianity ?

What of your conversation with a Jew you and I both know in which you said you had decided you were going to convert to Judaism ?

You ahve serious issues, and should seek medical attention immediately.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Dude, you're an ass, Abrahim. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

edit: Don't waste you're time talking to Abrahim. He just fucks around with you. Acts like a serious poster on the boards; acts like a 12 year old kid on IM.

E-Man, what offended you about our AIM convo! Did you block me!? I didn't mean to offend you!

Bullshit. I asked you a straighforward question and you first acted like I had mistaken you. Then you mocked me. The you typed some incomprehensible nonsense while I was trying to make out what you were saying. Then I said I was starting to get pissed and you mocked me some more. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

Yeah, he went behind my back and called me all kinds of names, and then trashed my faith.

I had the log, and was posting his words from it right into our conversation, and he STILL denied any wrongdoing.

I wouldn't waste any of your time on him.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Your faith is a disgusting belief system in which its adherents are required to praise and worship a being that allows for countless horrors to needlessly fall upon the universe.

Says the Communist. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:It encourages people to abandon logic, reason and the scientific method, in favor of immense ignorance in the form of "faith".

It encourages people to stop being so full of themselves, and acknowledge that they are not, in fact, the most important thing in the universe.

So, DS, are you going to stay on topic or just trash people?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Says the Communist.

"42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. "

-- Acts 2.



"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet."

- Acts 4.

That sounds familiar...



"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

-- Karl Marx.

Guess what the early Christians were. Go on, guess.

quote:

It encourages people to stop being so full of themselves, and acknowledge that they are not, in fact, the most important thing in the universe.

As if you weren't being infinitely more 'full of yourself' when you believe that an omnipotent cares so much about you that he not only is willing to offer you eternal bliss in the afterlife, but is willing to sacrifice his one and only son for you.

Sorry, but being a rational human being who believes that logic and reason are accurate systems of determining truth, pails in comparison to your beliefs when it comes to being 'full of oneself'.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-15-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Yeah, he went behind my back and called me all kinds of names, and then trashed my faith.

I had the log, and was posting his words from it right into our conversation, and he STILL denied any wrongdoing.

I wouldn't waste any of your time on him.

lol you still harbor anxiety about that!?

Elephant just got mad that once since he didn't expect me to joke around so much.

As for you! I didn't call you nasty names!

Now for whatever reason since you brought it up here in this place, even though its not the right place for it, I'll show what you took offense to (and you really didn't need to) and then our convo we had together!

You know I didn't mean to offend you!

*dream waves blur shot out with harp music*

It all started when we were having a good time and you introduced me to a nice fella named Sephiroth...

I have having a wonderful time with you and you wanted to invite me onto IRC to join in a chat since you had shared my music ( www.myspace.com/abrahimesker (http://www.myspace.com/abrahimesker) ) with the people on there.

I didn't know how to use IRC so I said:

"but I dont know how to use it"

then you said

"Do you mind if I have Sephiroth walk you through getting on? I don't feel like it lol"

and then I said

"lol k sure"

All was well! Sephiroth contacted me and I got on IRC, he was very patient and I got right on.

The conversation in IRC with Sephiroth came to the subject of religion where I heard him say some familiar things which I found very appealing and felt he would be a good candidate to follow my way. So then I contacted him.

I said "sleeping any time soon?"

he said "probably not why?"

I said "just wondering Alright lets get Started You believe in the RIGHT thing so far"

then he warned me "I'll warn you not to get excited, Digital has been trying to crack me for years, and she's only gotten me this far"

then I said "im not trying to make you a Christian"

and he said "and I still have relapses" (In Christianity)

and then I said "dont because there is only ONE God, and there is no Son, God is not a man, God is not in the image of Man, God is not somewhere in space in a form!

when I asked you what God is, you gave the right answer, but you said it, but I'll tell you what God is and finally it will come upon you hopefully the understanding of what I say

God is not a man or a woman or a thing created, God is not some form living within the Universe, God IS Everywhere, absolutely, How? God IS Reality, everything exists within it, is made from it, controlled by it, it is self sufficient, all universes all possibilities

everything we can possibly do or even think, the possibility is available for us and provided by God, Reality."

and he said "yeah, I agree"

and then I said "good, fantastic, so now when they ask what I asked, or when the Athiests without understanding Look for a God which they with their own minds have conceived (an image) Tell them, that every single moment they see God, experience God, utilize God"

and he said in agreement "of course, they're in the heart of it and cannot see"

so I got all giddy! This guy was really close to the path! The Right Way! and I said "yep EXACTLY and some of them will never understand but you, being one whose heart is opened and seeking the truth are magnetized to what is right"

and he said "I'm going to pack my pipe, keep on going, I'll be typing again shortly (tobacco pipe)"

Now I don't know if that wacky tabacky had anything to do with the sudden shift but then he came back and said "back"

So I felt he had accepted the Reality about Reality and I said "alright fantastic so now that you've so easily accepted the truth about God (something you probably knew inside all along), to the next phase the Religions"

Now here is where DS Might get offended...I went ahead and said "Christianity lies clearly, is written by humans obviously, a series of writers, and makes a man out of something far beyond what they claim" I was making reference to the humanization of God and that Christians call Jesus God, which I find outright blasphemy as Jesus was as much "God" as a tree.

Now I had glory in my eyes, a convert in my sights and glazed over his warning "my book is open on that one, but go ahead"

So I said "Ultimate Reality, The One, Can not, and Will NEVEr have a "son" because he is not a Man"

he said "I understand that theological position and I have some sympathy for it"

and I said "its not about sympathy, its about clear sense"

and he said "well, ok, let me put forward a series of theses I have one: God is in everything, all encompassing two: God blew the breath of life into us, gave us souls three: every person has some divine spark in them, every person has value four: sin can tarnish that divine spark, hide it five: a perfect person, without sin, would have no tarnish, their divine spark would shine through entirely, their utter submission to God would make them an extension of his will six: can such a person exist? if yes, whas Jesus that person? I don't know that one yet so that's how I see the idea of Jesus' "divinity""

I said "its not that God is in Everything so much as Everything is completely made of God existing within and by God only. Essentially there is ONLY God. God is alive, if God was "dead" so too would everything be inactive, non existant, Nothing can Exist in Nothing, Reality is where all things can exist. Every person is capable of utilizing their options they have for their growth and betterment, or for what is worse for them and transgression. Sinning is not Against God, nor does it Harm or Affect God or the system, it only Harms oneself. There were many people besides Jesus, who was a man and a messenger, who were without sin, Good people, people who had Surrendered and Submitted completely to God. The Bible blasphemies clearly making lies of people they did not know when they accuse the messengers of God as those who sin."

he said "I'm not saying sin hurts God"

I said "Gods will and control is in the possibilities we have available, not a person can move or think without God allowing it to happen, Everything is in Gods control DIRECTLY its not a MAN playing with a CHESSBOARD it is rather, THIS IS GOD, THESE ARE THE OPTIONS."

then he said "sin is just disobedience to God, and it is self-destructive, oh of course, we exist and free will exists only because God wills it, if he stopped willing it for an instant, we'd cease to exist"

then I said "Jesus is a man, a messenger, Only God is "Divine" the Only God. Otherwise everything from a turd in a toilet to an insect on a road, to you or me is equal, all a part of God, the best of us is the best in Conduct, WE ARE NOT GOD, just a part."

and he went and had to be all fancy and said "like I said, I am yet to be decided on the above thesis, so let us move forward for the sake of argument, you're proposing that you possess a true way, so let us hear this way described"

Like he doesn't know I AM THE WAY! *echo echo echo*

I then said "I dont know why you are undecided, There is no such thing as any partners to the One God, Any Man who is God, God is God, the Only God, The Reality we are completely dependant on, it is self sufficient. Submission to Reality and humbling oneself and following the straight path is the key to gain reward."

Then he threw the dreidle in my court and said "let us say that I agree, and I have certainly leaned strongly in that direction in the past, and move on I would suppose, given the timbre of the arguments that you have presented thus far that this orthodoxy you propose is Islam. Would I be correct in that supposition?"

I then said "Islam means by definition Submission to God, or Surrender to God, a Muslim being one who has Submitted or Surrendered. Modern Islam is NOT Following the Qur'an, but rather man made books made 200 years and more after events that lie and blasphemy openly. See a woman walking down the street wearing a cover on her head and know she is not following the Qur'an, nor are any "terrorists", nor are who they call "fundamentalists" who do not even follow the Qur'an or its fundamentals."

Then he made reference to the Canonisation of the Qur'an which he said occured during the time of the 3rd Caliph, I told him then that the history from which he gets that information from is in the Hadiths and has no verification, furthermore that the Qur'an itself refers to itself as "This book" and as a completed text.

then I said "and it is the whole of the book and the knowledge, how do I know? should I be in doubt? Look at the content, it is complete, it gives all explanations, it is written in a direct authoritative fashion its not a book of hearsay its speaking directly, to the prophet, to the people. the Hadiths propose a multitude of lies they were composed by those who have no knowledge by new converts and for political reasoning the history, the real history is unknown there is almost nothing known what we have is the book its guarantees, its knowledge, its "proof" and its content."

I guess he didn't buy that but he said "ok so one more question"

and then I said "ask as many as you want"

he said "this one about God's absolute power and salvific efficacy why has God so much apostacy and heresy in the Islamic world? for the vast majority of Muslims, Sharia, Sunna, the Hadith, and the rulings of Imams, control the way they view the Qur'an if God made his revelation to Mohammed to set the record straight

and Mohammed is the last prophet, why would so much of this Truth, be covered in the dust of manmade forgery for so many I have never met a Muslim with your views on the Qur'an how many think about it the way you do?"

then I said "it was predicted in the Qur'an even, you'll not meet a muslim with my views in the Qur'an because THEY DONT READ IT they get their info from MEN who have as little knowledge as them the next Muslim you'll hopefully meet, if you use your sense, that thinks like this will be you, The BOOK is CLEAR they openly make falseness out of things that are clear the book is very clear, the "islamic world" is not of concern"

and he then said "ok, so I assume you would like me to read the Qur'an. I posess a copy in translation, is there a translation that you would favour as being the best of them?"

then I said "nah the translations are fine, but here is one that has 3 in a row, I tend to prefer Yusufali http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ "

I told him he can ask me questions any time.

Then it started to wrap up and all seemed well, he said "thank you for the dissertation, it was enlightening to meet a muslim like yourself whether I would accept Islam or not, I wish more Muslims had your views"

then I said "the majority never willand I am very happy to meet a muslim like yourself, but I do hope that you utilize me and the Qur'an to your advantage and don't allow yourself to turn away"

and he said "well, while my "reversion" to Islam is not assured, I will certainly keep an open mind and come to you with my questions"

and then I said "there is no such thing as confirming a religion by a simple singular act but it is an ongoing process"

and he said "again, I agree"

and then I said "the fact that you are a truth seeker, said the right things about God and Agree with what im saying prove to me you are growing ever closer to the straight path even more, and thats why you are getting the guidance now and one of the functions of our relationship"

and then I had to go and say "also you dont have to discuss it with Alex she's"

and he said "confirmed Christian and of a strong opinion?"

and I said "she doesnt know or isnt sure about my religion, but upon mentioning the Qur'an she said some nasty stuff which was clearly untrue which I clearified and she refused to read was getting aggressive"

because I had mentioned the Qur'an to her and she called it horrific, brutal, and sexist, and I felt she didn't understand it if she thought of it like that and that this potential convert guy shouldn't talk to her about it or she might say the same things to him!

he said "ahh well, I can tell you, honesty would be the best policy in this case she would see it as deception if you were to hide your faith from her"

and then I explained "she said "That is horrific" "its brutal and sexist" and when I asked her for where she said "You havent read it" and then I showed her its not and she said she doesnt have time"

and he said "and I can assure you, given what you have told me about your views on the Qur'an that her opinion of you would not diminish for them"

and then I said "Im not exactly hiding my faith from her, I've said in my forums on totse and everywhere about my beliefs. I've just never come outright and said it and I never will, I've really disliked how she has behaved on Totse and luckilly she's never tried it against me, well she did once but then stopped when I answered her very politely, its before she knew me and she seems to like me very much, why I didnt want you to mention it or discuss it with her is because I heard the lies she would invent outright about the Qur'an"

then he said "she told me that she once observed you attempting to convince a "muslim" of the validity of Judaism, I believe her perception has been seriously misquided she would see it as direct deception if she were to ever discover on her own what your true beliefs are"

so then I said "but she does know I think she can see my posts in the religion place "Interested in Islam? Ask questions here!" What is God?" I put my views and the Qur'an "The True Religion" once again I do it"

then he said "believe me, from what she has told me of you, she seems to think you are a person of no particular religion, who is kind of interested in all of them"

then I said "well its true im interested in all of them but she has not shown me the capacity for accepting the truth, you have."

and he said "I think you should dispell that perception on her part as soon as possible, if you wish to have a healthy relationship with her well, she is definitely Christian, whereas I am, at the moment, in limbo..."

and I said "hopefully not for long"

Not knowing my prey had decided to report me to the DS!

then he said "that I can agree to limbo is a terrible place to be may it be speedily and in our days that I come to Truth, Omayn lol"

then I said "lol I think you know the truth, you've come to it, and you will continue to gain it more and more. a process of Growth, and obviously you are a truth seeker, thus like a magnet zipped me into your reality lol"

and his final warning to me "heh, if you only knew my capacity to blind myself at times, you would not be so excited well, I believe I am going to bed it was very nice talking to you"

and I said "yep"

and he said "you certainly a talented evangelist to defend and explain Islam with such passion so Salam Alekum, Shalom Aleichem, Loyla Tov, Gute Nacht, Good Night and all that"

and I said "haha Peace! have a beautiful sleep"

I thought I was safe, DS seemed to like me, I liked her, I had a new potential convert to my way, and I had warned him not to discuss it with her cause I didn't want to get into a debate with her about something I felt she didn't understand, though I explained to Sephiroth how I'm not like others but...well...when he woke up, apparently he showed her my convo with him right away and she got angry!

At the time I was hanging out in the Mormon topic I left a message to Jaryo after I felt he was a little insulting in his Opus Dei topic...I said "If anyone is able, please read the following, it is a note on behavior in this forum, the following sentiment was echoed by some others in the past:

I wish people were nicer in this forum instead of flinging around words like stupid, idiot, dumbass, and all that. God or not, how respectable of a person does it make you when you make remarks on such a level, or even suggest it. Such as this quote from our beloved host here:

"Jaryohem063 posted in Opus Dei:

Let's see...

The title of the thread is "opus dei", the initials of which being "od". An intelligent totsean would connect the two. You seem not to have. I wonder if you can see where I'm going with this..."

after I mentioned Operational Thetan, OT, from Scientology. Not only was it rude but not required, and I'm sure its not something that should be encouraged, or would be encouraged.

I honestly liked you and thought you were a nice guy, based on my communication with you here in this Mormon house of questions.

In any case I used Jaryohem063 as an example because from this forum he gave me the impression he was generally a nice person who wouldnt make any comments like he did in Opus Dei.

I really think people should change their tone in this forum, especially those who claim to be religious or part of a religion. Where has God suggested to insult people? To call them low, and losers, and dumb, and to suggest they are stupid? Perchance they might know more than you, so sit back, no matter what they say, and learn from it.

Name calling is not a "becoming" behavior. It is not suitable for those who claim to be spiritual people to be calling names. Yes it seems like a small thing, we are so distant from each other that we can be rude, make sarcastic comments, and suggest each other are stupid, but that is not a kind or appealing way to behave.

Those of you who do have a religion, represent it properly as one who is best in conduct, gain respect through your good nature, do not fall to the temptation and lowness of insulting and degrading people, you have no need for that, it is bad tactic and does not coincide with personal spiritual growth.

To those without a religion, a similar message applies, what benefit do you get from fighting on such level as insulting people or attempting to degrade others and in turn degrading yourselves by the tactics you employ?

The name of this forum is: My God can Beat the Shit out of Your God. In my opinion, it should be about just that, What Religion is True, What your beliefs are, What God is the True God and more.

This forum is not called: Insults R Us.

So if you want to post lengthy battles of how stupid, ugly, dumb, self righteous, fat, arrogant, and fartilicious someone is, do it in another Forum. This place should be an Arena for the debate of God, for people to come for Spiritual Growth and Learning.

Use your Gods to do the fighting rather than slights and insults of intelligence. Be decent people, no matter what you believe, and speak nicely to one another, its better for you and everyone.

Bring your Religion, no matter what it is, explain it, put it out there, let people learn, some might accept, some might deny it, so ask questions, make them difficult, make the other person answer or not answer, and you can do all this WITHOUT calling them stupid or losers. Use some tact, skill, and talent in your debates. If you behave in a truly intelligent way, no matter how big the words you use are, you will be respected by others, and you can even respect yourself more.

This message is in reference to all of you, even me, why not make this a pleasant place to duke it out using our Gods and Monsters, rather than weak words and insults to each other personally.

Let the "Enemy" do the talking, you just ask them questions that makes it hard for them.

Anyway, I hope the best among you see what I am saying and take my advice and use it to your advantage.

I give my personal thanks to anyone who read this completely and to those who agree with what I'm saying."

DS then posted in Jaryohem's Mormon topic saying "quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Abrahim:

I really think people should change their tone in this forum, especially those who claim to be religious or part of a religion. Where has God suggested to insult people?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mean by calling them "nasty" behind their backs ?



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name calling is not a "becoming" behavior.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is lying by ommission, yet you seem to have no issues with THAT.



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is not suitable for those who claim to be spiritual people to be calling names.

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Is it suitable to talk about people behind their backs, lie, and slander their religion ?

I didn't realize "true" Muslims were encouraged to do such things, being as holy as they are, treating all manner of sin with abhorrance. It is, after all, a religion of peace...is it not ? I apologise...it ISN'T relevant to this thread. It is relevant to real life, however, and he will know to what I am referring.

Again, I apologise. No intent to derail the topic, here."

I had no idea she was talking about me, I thought she was accusing Jary of being a muslim so I said "He's a muslim?!"

Then I realized she was talking about me! I said "Wait a diddle daddle, when did I call you NASTY? We have a fine time on MSN. If I called you nasty somewhere it was in reference to either the way I've seen you call people losers on this forum (even though they were being mean possibly or silly) and if not that then possibly in reference to something else. I like you though and I don't understand what the heck you're talking about, if I called you nasty somewhere I'm sorry but I don't want you to be nasty! Doesn't mean you ARE by nature Nasty, clearly you're not, but I was probably reffering to something. I'm sure I must've said it, you wouldn't just come out of the blue, but where? in what context? who told you? What do Mormons have to do with it?!"

I then contacted her on AIM to try to straighten this out, I was a little pissed that I had been snitched on when I knew she wouldn't understand! (The most important quote in the following is this "AbrahimEsker: why do you keep calling mea MUSLIM!? it might be accurate but you wouldnt UNDERSTAND, How I am a JEW, how I am a CHRISTIAN, How I am a TAOIST, how I am a BHUDDIST, how I am a HINDU")

AbrahimEsker: right on time, I was just thinking about you, I posted in the mormon place, I had no idea you had posted about me in there, and thus my quote "he's a muslim?!" can be found in there cause I thought you were saying Jaryohem is a muslim lol... here is what I wrote after I read what you wrote "

AbrahimEsker: Wait a diddle daddle, when did I call you NASTY? We have a fine time on MSN. If I called you nasty somewhere it was in reference to either the way I've seen you call people losers on this forum (even though they were being mean possibly or silly) and if not that then possibly in reference to something else. I like you though and I don't understand what the heck you're talking about, if I called you nasty somewhere I'm sorry but I don't want you to be nasty! Doesn't mean you ARE by nature Nasty, clearly you're not, but I was probably reffering to something. I'm sure I must've said it, you wouldn't just come out of the blue, but where? in what context? who told you? What do Mormons have to do with it?!"

desired hush: I can show you the log of your conversation with Sephiroth, if you'd like.

desired hush: In it, you say I was nasty.

desired hush: Don't bother lying to me.

desired hush: I read the whole thing.

AbrahimEsker: show it! I have it too! IN WHAT WAY AM I LYING? I admit saying it, put it in context

desired hush: [05:44] Abrahim: she doesnt know or isnt sure about my religion, but upon mentioning the Qur'an she said some nasty stuff which was clearly untrue which I clearified and she refused to read

[05:45] Abrahim: was getting aggressive

desired hush: Then you outright said Christianity lies.

desired hush: How DARE you ?

AbrahimEsker: copy paste the Christianity lies thing please I know I probably said it

desired hush: You have no idea what you are talking about, and I will clearly show you, if you can handle getting such instruction from such a lowly woman.

desired hush: You have the log.

desired hush: YOU paste it.

desired hush: Unless that was another lie.

desired hush: You seem to be adept at lying.

desired hush: Must be a Muslim virtue.

desired hush: A TRUE Muslim virtue, of cours.e

desired hush: course*

AbrahimEsker: ok hold on let me see cause I gotta re read it, and you're not a lowly woman, and Islam has nothing that says women are lowly so just calm the diddle down

desired hush: Seeing as how you are so superior to all the other Muslims in the world...

desired hush: I don't need to calm down.

desired hush: 1. You lied to me.

AbrahimEsker: no I didnt

AbrahimEsker: when

AbrahimEsker: did I lie to you

desired hush: 2. You tried to get my best friend to lie to me.

desired hush: 3. You talked about me behind my back.

AbrahimEsker: no I didnt, I told him not to tell you BECAUSE it would offend you

desired hush: 4. You spit in the face of my faith, when you claim to appreciate them all.

desired hush: You are a snake.

AbrahimEsker: I DID NOT spit on your FAITH, I love religions, I DONT ACCEPT THEM ALL

desired hush: If you will permit me, I will show you how ridiculously flawed Islam is, and how Christianity has been proven correct, based on the historical and archeological evidence.

desired hush: You are largely ignorant of this topic, and it shows during your conversation with Sephiroth.

desired hush: You said Christianity LIES

desired hush: How is the NOT spitting in the face of it ?

AbrahimEsker: Islam is flawed and ridiculous, forget it, let it go, now tell me all about Christianity.

AbrahimEsker: its NOT

AbrahimEsker: SPITTING

AbrahimEsker: IN ITS FACE

AbrahimEsker: I love it as a religion

desired hush: YES, IT MOST CERTAINLY IS

desired hush: It is irrelevant if you admit it or not.

AbrahimEsker: NO ITS ON

desired hush: There was nothing nice about it.

AbrahimEsker: IF I SAY GREEK MYTHOLOGY IS NOT TRUE

desired hush: And you, are a hypocrite, my friend.

AbrahimEsker: DOESNT MEAN IM SPITTING IN ITS FACE

AbrahimEsker: I LOVE GREEK MYTHOLOGY

desired hush: And no, I will not prove Christianity to you, until I prove to you that Islam is a crock of shit.

desired hush: And that you've been had.

AbrahimEsker: before you do that

desired hush: You don't know enough about your OWN religion to be talking shit about others.

desired hush: It's humorous, really.

AbrahimEsker: I DIDNT TALK SHIT, LET ME EXPLAIN MYSELF, FIRST YOU NEED TO READ MY CONVO THAT IS THE LAST POST

desired hush: But I take most offense to you saying things about me behind my back, and then asking people to hide truths about you.

AbrahimEsker: IN WHAT IS GOD?

AbrahimEsker: I DIDNT SAY ANYTHING BEHIND YOUR BACK

desired hush: I don't need to do anything.

desired hush: You are slightly above pond scum, in my book.

AbrahimEsker: I DONT WANT TO OFFEND YOU SO I DONT SAY TO YOUR FACE" HEY STOP BEING NASTY" instead I explained it

desired hush: I never read your long, and overtly verbose posts

desired hush: That is why I didn't know you were a Muslim

desired hush: You claim, during your conversation with Seph, that I knwe...

desired hush: knew*

AbrahimEsker: man and you STILL DONT KNOW what I am

desired hush: As if I was playing a cat and mouse game with you

desired hush: That's not how I operate

desired hush: You are a n00bie in MY forum

desired hush: I had no reason to care about anything you wrote.

AbrahimEsker: no cat and mouse, look, I would have NEVER said you are NASTY to your face ok? I dont OFFEND people, it doesnt make me a snake

desired hush: So, your opinion of my is riddled with nothing more than assumptions, and ignorance.

AbrahimEsker: I said it to him in reference to you calling the Qur'an horrific, sexist, and brutal

desired hush: Congratulations, most Holy of Muslims.

AbrahimEsker: which was a nasty thing to say

desired hush: Enlightened one.

desired hush: Pffft.

AbrahimEsker: and then when I asked you

desired hush: It is horrific.

desired hush: It IS sexist.

AbrahimEsker: CALM DOWN! lol then when I asked you where? you told me I havent read it

desired hush: And it IS brutal.

AbrahimEsker: then I asked you about the part where it says they throw women in the fire

desired hush: Then you tried to cop out and say I was getting that from hadith's, which I clearly am not.

desired hush: You didn't even bother to give me a chance to explain why I thought that

AbrahimEsker: Im not copping out, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I BELIEVE FROM ME.

desired hush: Started copying and pasting verse after verse

AbrahimEsker: to know what I am

desired hush: As if the Qur'an proves itself !

desired hush: hahahaha

AbrahimEsker: I did give you a CHANCE I said "where does it say that?"

desired hush: I don't need to know what you are

AbrahimEsker: you said you dont have time

AbrahimEsker: yes you do need to know

desired hush: You ruined that opportunity for youself, buddy

AbrahimEsker: no I didnt

desired hush: You could have just told me from the beginning, and handled it maturely.

desired hush: Instead, you assumed you knew what I was all about, and hid it.

AbrahimEsker: its like you are saying to me, LET ME PROVE THE JEHOVAH WITNESS RELIGION TO YOU, YOU JEHOVA WITNESS

desired hush: You told Seph you would NEVER tell me the truth, because you found me to be intolerant

AbrahimEsker: its not RELEVANT, you need to know what I AM specifically

desired hush: You have NO idea what I am, who I am, or why.

desired hush: I could care less.

desired hush: You have proven that you cannot be trusted, and that you are so deluded by your own lies that it will be impossible to have any sort of productive conversation with you.

desired hush: You made a fatal error in choosing Sephiroth to confide in...

desired hush: How silly of you to assume he and I weren't close.

desired hush: Don't go into politics...you would suck at it.

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: you gotta calm down, I told him not to tell you for this specific reason, furthermore not to OFFEND you, I said what you said was NASTY, IT WAS, doesnt matter, if you had said it about Bhuddism I wouldve said the same, YOU CAN NOT say "I'm going to disprove Islam" to me and think that its relevant its like saying to ME "Hey bhuddist, Bhuddism is nothing" YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT I SPECIFICALLY BELIEVE

desired hush: You want me to give you special exceptions...I MUST understand you, yet you have made NO effort to afford me the same luxury.

AbrahimEsker: to disprove what I specifically believe

desired hush: I wouldn't have reacted this way had you not been a snake coming through the back door !

desired hush: I have every reason to be angry.

AbrahimEsker: YES I HAVE, I was never going to call myself a "MUSLIM" with you, I was not going to HIDE my beliefs

desired hush: You earned it.

desired hush: You did hide your beliefs, because I didn't know what they are. You confirmed that by what you said to Sephiroth.

desired hush: Let me show you.

desired hush: I am far more intelligent than you could possibly imagine, so it is an act of futility to try and win me over, or convince me of your BS.

desired hush: I have dealt with far more clever people than you, on this very subject.

AbrahimEsker: I didn't earn it, because I didnt do anything against you, I still like you despite your over reaction here, what you said, was said in a Nasty fashion, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO THINK THAT AND SAY IT TO PEOPLE, IT IS NOT LYING, I WONT SAY IT IN THAT WAY TO YOU BECAUSE I DONT WANT TO OFFEND YOU

AbrahimEsker: MY BS IS WHAT IS RELEVANT BECAUSE IT IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DISPROVE

desired hush: Typing in caps doesn't make me see your point any better.

desired hush: I don't need you to like me.

desired hush: Your feigned allegiance means nothing.

desired hush: Don't talk about people behind their backs if you want them to believe you to be their friend.

AbrahimEsker: I KNOW YOU DONT NEED ME TO LIKE YOU, IM SAYING THAT I DO AND YOU'RE LETTING A QUOTE IN REFERENCE TO WHAT YOU SAID GET TO YOU

AbrahimEsker: its not talking behind your back

desired hush: Don't defame their faith, and then claim in the same breath that you appreciate them all.

AbrahimEsker: to say what you said was nasty

desired hush: YES, IT WAS

desired hush: Was I there ?

desired hush: Was I able to defend myself ?

desired hush: No.

AbrahimEsker: I love all religions, I DO NOT BELIEVE THEY ARE ALL TRUE

desired hush: That's talking behind my back.

desired hush: Your belief in them being true has nothing to do with your tolerance of them.

AbrahimEsker: so is talking about ME, behind MY back, like him sending my private convo with him, where I TOLD HIM NOT TO TELL YOU, because of THIS reason

desired hush: Saying that Christianity LIES is an attack, one which you supported with NO argument, and NO evidence.

desired hush: Proselytizing to Sephiroth, who knows both Christianity and Judaism better than you ever will.

desired hush: He just let you talk...

AbrahimEsker: hey, you would understand why I say that, not from the Qur'an, but from my own personal VIEWS, which you can READ about

desired hush: It was amusing to see how full of yourself you are.

desired hush: I don't need to read about them.

desired hush: You stand from the viewpoint that I don't know what you will say.

desired hush: I have had this argument numerous times, with numerous Muslims.

AbrahimEsker: well you cant disprove them until you know them! Telling me about Islam, Bhuddism, Christianity is not going to disprove them

desired hush: You will not teach me anything new, you will not shock me, and you will not convince me of the inerrancy of the Qur'an.

AbrahimEsker: God, yeah and Bhuddists too?! ITS NOT RELEVANT TO ME SPECIFICALLY

desired hush: I have facts on my side, darlin

AbrahimEsker: hey FORGET

AbrahimEsker: the QURAN

AbrahimEsker: FORGET IT

desired hush: The Qur'an is what you base your religion on.

desired hush: If you base your religion on nothing, then this conversation is voer.

desired hush: over*

AbrahimEsker: man its too silly that you wont even find out

AbrahimEsker: what the hell I believe!

desired hush: You specifically called Sephiroth a Muslims

desired hush: -s*

desired hush: it is clear that you are a Muslim.

AbrahimEsker: thats ok I dont mind typos, no its not CLEAR ok

desired hush: If you have changed it to suit your own needs, then there is nothing to argue, as you have no historical foundation for your beliefs.

AbrahimEsker: Im not going to argue on behalf of it, I need you to read my fricken beliefs to disprove them

desired hush: I am not going to be able to disprove your beliefs, if they are not based on any formal religion.

desired hush: It is ridiculous to assert that I could.

AbrahimEsker: you cant scream at me about Bhuddism or Islam or Christianity to disprove MY SPECIFIC AND UNIQUE BELIEFS

desired hush: I am not screaming.

desired hush: You are the one typing in caps.

AbrahimEsker: not screaming

AbrahimEsker: just a word

AbrahimEsker: and caps is for emphasis

AbrahimEsker: bold

AbrahimEsker: yeah

desired hush: As I have already said...

AbrahimEsker: I can use this

AbrahimEsker: but I like caps

desired hush: [15:49] desired hush: I am not going to be able to disprove your beliefs, if they are not based on any formal religion.

[15:49] desired hush: It is ridiculous to assert that I could.

desired hush: [15:48] desired hush: If you have changed it to suit your own needs, then there is nothing to argue, as you have no historical foundation for your beliefs.

desired hush: So, it is safe to say you are undeniably wrong, since you have made this up...being "unique."

AbrahimEsker: can you walk the steps instead of skipping around like wild? step one, find my personalized beliefs, step 2, find what they are based on, step 3 Disprove

desired hush: I'm not skipping around.

desired hush: You just don't have an argument, and are therefore flustered.

desired hush: Are you, or are you NOT, a Muslim ?

AbrahimEsker: I DID NOT SEND YOUR CONVOS WITH ME TO ANYONE, SEPHIROTH BACKBIT ME, AND I DIDNT BACKBITE YOU, I DIDNT SPIT ON YOUR RELIGION, I SAID I DONT BELIEVE IT, ITS NOT TRUE, PROVE TO ME OTHERWISE PLEASE, THEN YOU ATTACK ME ABOUT ISLAM JUST LIKE YOU WOULD ABOUT BHUDDISM WHEN YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT I AM

desired hush: He never promised he wouldn't show me.

desired hush: He also told you repeatedly to be honest with me.

desired hush: That's not backbiting.

desired hush: You were just too blind to see what you were getting yourself into.

AbrahimEsker: nah but thats totally not cool to make fight between us

desired hush: He is a very loyal person, and what you were doing was immoral.

desired hush: He did the right thing,.

desired hush: YOU caused the fight between us.

desired hush: Not him.

desired hush: He did what was just and right.

desired hush: Let me get the exact thing you said about Christianity, so will stop lying and saying you didn't say it.

desired hush: Hold on...

AbrahimEsker: nah I knew he was going to do it too, but I didnt think I said anything so wrong in there, REMEMBER? I MAKE JEWS INTO MUSLIMS, like the other one, SHARULE, because they will NEVER be Christians, YOU STILL DONT KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE. YOU NEED TO KNOW IN ORDER TO DESTROY IT AND MAKE ME A CHRISTIAN.

desired hush: You lack conviction, which shows you do not know Allah, or God, or whatever you want to call him.

desired hush: You are so lost, and don't even know it.

desired hush: It's hilarious.

desired hush: Now

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: Let us review.

desired hush: Abrahim: I've just never come outright and said it and I never will, I've really disliked how she has behaved on Totse and luckilly she's never tried it against me, well she did once but then stopped when I answered her very politely, its before she knew me

desired hush: You never will.

desired hush: Read your words.

desired hush: You have lied in this very conversation, denying that this was said.

desired hush: So, that covers one thing I have addressed.

desired hush: Moving on,.

AbrahimEsker: true I believe at that time I believed I would never say to you that HEY IM A MUSLIM cause that would mislead you

desired hush: [05:48] Abrahim: and she seems to like me very much, why I didnt want you to mention it or discuss it with her is because I heard the lies she would invent outright about the Qur'an

desired hush: Now I am the liar ?!

desired hush: Hahahahaha

desired hush: And you think you didn't say anything offensive about me ?

desired hush: Pffft

desired hush: Moving on.

AbrahimEsker: that it is horrific

AbrahimEsker: brutal

AbrahimEsker: sexist

desired hush: Those aren't lies.

desired hush: If anything, they are personal opinion.

desired hush: If you disagree that what I have said is true, that is perfectly fine.

desired hush: that doesn't make me a liar, inventing things to discredit the Qur'an.

AbrahimEsker: like how it says to BEAT the wife right? In my convo with you I explained each one, its explained in my islam question thing too, FURTHERMORE, disproving ISlam to me means NOTHING AT ALL, disprove to me what I Believe.

desired hush: it does that well enough on its own.

desired hush: I don't need the specific verses I take issue with explained

desired hush: I have a brain, and I know how to use it

desired hush: I've been studying religious texts for a very long time.

desired hush: Anyway

desired hush: You denied saying anything offensive about me

desired hush: You lied.

desired hush: Moving on.

AbrahimEsker: it wasnt meant to be offensive, no not moving on I didnt lie

AbrahimEsker: I LIKE YOU DAMNIT THERE IS NO FIGHT JUST CAUSE I CLEARLY THINK THE THINGS YOU SAID WERE NASTY

AbrahimEsker: and cause I dont believe in many concepts in Christianity

desired hush: How is it not offensive to say someone is purposely inventing lies ?

desired hush: What planet do you live on ?

desired hush: You're an idiot.... O_o

AbrahimEsker: :-( see I dont like that kind of nastiness

desired hush: How can you POSSIBLY think that's not offensive ?

desired hush: This is textbook definition of "idiot"

desired hush: Denying something so obviously true.

desired hush: Sorry, but I call it like I see it.

AbrahimEsker: its NOT, you did invent a lie, and didnt show me what was horrific so I had to show YOU if you log back to our convo

desired hush: Whereas you make assumptions, and assault someone's character as a result.

desired hush: I didn't invent anything

AbrahimEsker: if you had called Bhuddism SHIT NASTY RACIST, I wouldve said the same thing

AbrahimEsker: and im sure people have their points

desired hush: I read the scriptures, and they are horrific, brutal, and sexist.

desired hush: Period.

desired hush: that is my opinion.

desired hush: that is not an invention of a lie

desired hush: Either you don't understand English very well, or you were being a jerk.

desired hush: Which is it ?

AbrahimEsker: fine ok, its your opinion, ITS YOUR OPINION, to me YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE QUR'AN is a LIE, that is MY OPINION

desired hush: A lie would to be saying something untrue on purpose.

desired hush: You cannot say that I made these things up on purpose, can you ?

AbrahimEsker: I thought it was a lie, it was your opinion

desired hush: So, you were talking about me behind my back.

AbrahimEsker: my opinion was that your opinion was a lie

desired hush: Based on your false assumptions.

desired hush: I cuold care less what your opinion is.

desired hush: I am showing you what you were doing, why it was wrong, and why my reaction is APPROPRIATE

AbrahimEsker: people talk about me too, I APPRECIATE IT, and I didnt say anything, and SEPHIROTH IS YOUR FRIEND, and he told me to tell you and I told him I wouldnt for THIS reason

desired hush: If you had told me yourself, this reaction wouldn't have occurred.

desired hush: What about that do you not understand ?

desired hush: You burned yourself by doing it behind my back.

desired hush: Not allowing me an opportunity to defend and explain myself.

AbrahimEsker: Im not the type who comes up to people and says YOU WERE NASTY

desired hush: Oh, so you're the type that is a back stabber.

AbrahimEsker: I did allow you the opportunity

AbrahimEsker: I said where are those verses?

desired hush: That has already been established.

AbrahimEsker: and you said I HAVENT READ THE BOOK

AbrahimEsker: so then I quoted them

AbrahimEsker: the verses

desired hush: No, I certainly did not

AbrahimEsker: yes you did

desired hush: I have the very copy that you have,

AbrahimEsker: good let me show you then

desired hush: I would never say that I haven't read it, when I have !

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: NOT YOU

desired hush: No, we are still dealing with what a piece of shit you are.

AbrahimEsker: ME

desired hush: Can I continue, please ?

AbrahimEsker: you said I HAVENT READ THE BOOK

desired hush: Oh

desired hush: Sorry

desired hush: I misunderstood

AbrahimEsker: its ok

desired hush: 8shakes head*

desired hush: *

desired hush: Ok

desired hush: Now

desired hush: On to the "lies" comment

AbrahimEsker: Now please dont be mad, I didnt lie about you, I was honest with Sephiroth mostly and I wouldnt have said it the way I said it to him, to you

desired hush: I didn't say you lied about me,.

desired hush: I said you were talking about me behind my back, which i have clearly illustrated.

desired hush: *looking*

AbrahimEsker: yep and I've discussed many other people not present too, and so have other people, and usually I dont say much but I tend to mention how you call people idiot and losers and how I'd prefer you didnt just like I wrote to the Mormon

AbrahimEsker: its not back biting, im not saying anything wrong

AbrahimEsker: we can talk about people to

AbrahimEsker: im not going to go tattling on you

AbrahimEsker: what we discuss is between YOU and ME, I didnt show our convo to Totse

AbrahimEsker: Sephiroth, I thought he would be friends, but he has lost ALL my trust when I SPECIFICALLY requested he doesnt say anything

AbrahimEsker: nor does Sephiroth yet understand what I, EVEN I, Believe lol and I want you to know, YOU WILL NEVER ACCEPT IT, GOING TO THE QURAN YOU WILL NOT FIND IT BY LOOKING AT IT (probably)

desired hush: "Abrahim: Christianity lies clearly, is written by humans obviously, a series of writers, and makes a man out of something far beyond what they claim"

AbrahimEsker: But its in the fricken forum in the last convo of the last page of what is GOD

desired hush: Still claiming that you didn't say this ?

AbrahimEsker: im not claiming I didnt say that, I believe what I said, why? because it is in CONTRADICTION TO MY BELIEFS, you can call it an OPINION, you would UNDERSTAND my Opinion and how it conflicts, if you knew WHAT I BELIEVE

AbrahimEsker: it will make it SO easy for you to rip me to shreds then

desired hush: YOu have denied saying it, in this very conversation !

desired hush: You are seriously delusional

desired hush: You spend too much time alone, I think

AbrahimEsker: lol no I'm not

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: Oh, yes, you are

AbrahimEsker: no am not! no am not!

desired hush: You denied saying that Christianity is a lie

AbrahimEsker: *rides unicorn*

desired hush: And now you deny saying that you denied saying it !

desired hush: WTF

AbrahimEsker: no I didnt deny that

AbrahimEsker: when did I deny saying Christianity is a lie

desired hush: Scroll up

desired hush: *sighs*

AbrahimEsker: nope

AbrahimEsker: ITS NOT THERE

desired hush: I jkeep showing you what you said

desired hush: And you keep lying.

AbrahimEsker: IM NOT LYING, I DONT RECALL SAYING THAT I DIDNT SAY CHRISTIANITY IS A LIE

AbrahimEsker: BECAUSE I KNOW I SAID IT

desired hush: This is never going to go anywhere until you admit that you are a liar, a hypocrite, a backstabber, and an arrogant prick.

desired hush: Until then, no progress can be made.

AbrahimEsker: I RECALL SAYING I LOVE ALL RELIGIONS, MYTHOLOGIES, AND ALL THAT, BUT I DONT BELIEVE THEY ARE ALL TRUE

desired hush: Stop with the caps.

desired hush: For Christ's sake.

desired hush: *rolss eyes*

desired hush: rolls*

AbrahimEsker: so copy paste where I said that Christianity is NOT a lie

desired hush: You can say you love all religions if you want, but the proof is in the pudding.

desired hush: You attacking Christianity this way proves that you don't love alln religions.

desired hush: -n*

desired hush: You hate Christianity, and it is clear in the way you talk about it.

desired hush: I wonder why you'd even want to talk to me, being that I am a Christian, a religion which lies, and I invent lies about Islam, and I am nasty.

desired hush: What, precisely, is your malfunction ?

AbrahimEsker: ok is the word love not applying? I love studying it, learning about it, I dont believe it is true, I love hinduism, it does alot of things I dont like, says alot of things I dont believe, I LOVE IT

desired hush: You said you love all religions.

desired hush: You did not say you loved studying them.

AbrahimEsker: If you said Bhuddism was Horrific, Brutal, Sexist, or Hinduism, or any of those, I wouldve reacted the same...

desired hush: You cannot add things to your original statement to make it seem like something it's not, or that it's better.

AbrahimEsker: man when I say I LOVE religions means I LOVE THEM for what they ARE

AbrahimEsker: religions

AbrahimEsker: mythologies too

AbrahimEsker: I love monsters

desired hush: Buddhism isn't horrific or brutal, so I wouldn't say that

AbrahimEsker: how about Hinduism?

desired hush: the sooner you realize that I tell the truth, ALWAYS, the better this will go.

desired hush: We're not talking about other religions.

desired hush: We are talking about YOU.

AbrahimEsker: good

AbrahimEsker: thats what I want

desired hush: Don't try and derail this uncomfortable conversatino.

desired hush: ion*

AbrahimEsker: and will you find out what I believe, I SPECIFICALLY I believe?

desired hush: No.

AbrahimEsker: :-(

desired hush: Unless you adhere to a specific religion, it doesn't really matter, as it cannot be unproven.

AbrahimEsker: ask me questions to find out what I am.

desired hush: there is no evidence to refute.

desired hush: I could have gotten to know you...but you ruined that by showing what low moral character you possess.

desired hush: Sorry.

desired hush: You have destroyed all opportunity you may have had at that.

AbrahimEsker: prove to me YOUR God, My God is OBVIOUS, if only you could read the frick I wrote you would KNOW! then you could devise your plan to attack it

desired hush: I require my friends be honest, and of great moral character.

desired hush: I don't intend to attack, even if you are a run of the mill Muslim.

desired hush: I intend to disprove it, and quite easily.

desired hush: But if you're not a Muslim, then there is no point.

AbrahimEsker: its your OPINION that I lie, just because I didnt tell YOU something that wouldve offended you. I STILL WONT.

desired hush: This is not religion according to Abrahim.

AbrahimEsker: lol it should be

desired hush: No, it shouldn't

AbrahimEsker: and I'd like you to blow my religion UP

desired hush: You're a snot nosed kid that lives with his parents.

AbrahimEsker: and I still suck my mommys boob

desired hush: How you could possibly consider yourself superior to the religions of the world is beyond me

AbrahimEsker: well

desired hush: You need a serious dose of real life, that's what.

AbrahimEsker: it wouldnt be BEYOND you

AbrahimEsker: if you read

AbrahimEsker: what the hell ive written

AbrahimEsker: you would find it hard to deny

desired hush: I have already explained to you why I won't.

AbrahimEsker: or you could flatly deny it

desired hush: It means nothing, if it's according to you.

AbrahimEsker: well thats silly to not read what the heck I wrote

desired hush: Someone who lies, and stabs people in the back.

desired hush: Sephiroth didn't break your trust....he had no allegiance to you.

desired hush: He specifically told you that what you are doing is wrong.

AbrahimEsker: and tell that Sephiroth guy to unblock me please cause I dont appreciate him tattling and getting you angy with me, I dont want you angy with me

desired hush: You should have sensed our comraderie when he explained my behavior to you.

AbrahimEsker: I dont think its wrong

AbrahimEsker: to not tell you something that might offend you

AbrahimEsker: I call that being NICE

desired hush: But you were busy maniacally proselytizing, so you didn't notice the obvious signs

desired hush: You stuck your foot in your mouth, and that's all.

desired hush: Admit it.

AbrahimEsker: and I'm NICE to you because I LIKE YOU so I dont wanna OFFEND YOU

desired hush: What you should have told me is that you think Christianity is a lie, and that I lie.

desired hush: THAT'S what you should have told me.

desired hush: You also should have been open and honest about your beliefs.

AbrahimEsker: Not until it comes up

desired hush: Do you honestly think, if I had known you were a Muslim, that I would have said those things ? I would have been more careful to explain.

desired hush: it did come up.

desired hush: We talked about God, briefly.

desired hush: You had every opportunity, but as you have admitted in your convo with Seph, you assumed that, based on how I am on totse, I would attack you or something.

desired hush: You show your ignorance here.

AbrahimEsker: why do you keep calling mea MUSLIM!? it might be accurate but you wouldnt UNDERSTAND, How I am a JEW, how I am a CHRISTIAN, How I am a TAOIST, how I am a BHUDDIST, how I am a HINDU

desired hush: How long have you been watching My God ?

desired hush: You cannot be all religions and expect some sort of respect from me.

desired hush: If anything, that is the WORST thing.

AbrahimEsker: lol if only you comprehended and would READ

AbrahimEsker: you might be wise enough to follow my way

AbrahimEsker: which is the RIGHT way

desired hush: You're nothing more than a damn Unitarian, and you lack the conviction to give any of the deities associated with those religions a fulfilling, worshipful relationship.

desired hush: Your way is the right way ? The way invented by Abrahim ?

desired hush: you are one arrogant fuck, you know that ?

desired hush: lmao

desired hush: Your cluster fuck of religions will never appeal to me, as I know God personally, and have travelled great depths to come to the conclusions I have about religions, God, and the universe as a whole.

AbrahimEsker: Dieties are NOTHING, there is only ONE GOD, CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT, IT IS ONE THING, IN FACT YOU CAN FIND MY RELIGION EVERYWHERE...My God is undeniable, you submit to it now, if only you knew what it was, you might call it Allah, or Tao, or Powa, or WHATEVER THE HELL, you gotta know what it IS first

desired hush: You are a child. You know nothing, and you have made that clear time and again.

desired hush: You're proselytizing again, and you have given no support for your argument.

desired hush: Do you realize how much damage you do to your religious position, in approaching it this way ?

AbrahimEsker: lol my support is in the fricken WHAT IS GOD, PAGE 2, BOTTOM MOST POST

desired hush: *shakes head*

desired hush: I am talking about how you are speaking RIGHT NOW, and how you were speaking to Sephiroth that night.

desired hush: "MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY !!!"

AbrahimEsker: It is

desired hush: I can see you as a televangelist.

AbrahimEsker: haha yes

desired hush: Not really saying anything, but using emotion and theatrics to motivate people to believe you.

AbrahimEsker: lol yup

desired hush: You have to understand that textual foundation is essential to any religion.

desired hush: You haven't got any.

AbrahimEsker: its true when you get to my belief you'll find its actually saying nothing we dont already know, but something we often forget.

AbrahimEsker: I would tell you the textual fricken foundation once you know my belief, not before

AbrahimEsker: and its EVERYWHERE

AbrahimEsker: my foundation is all over the place

AbrahimEsker: even ancient hunter gatherers believed it

AbrahimEsker: because it is OBVIOUS

AbrahimEsker: and TRUE

AbrahimEsker: and not a MUTATION

AbrahimEsker: and if only you could read it

AbrahimEsker: and then DESTROY IT

AbrahimEsker: I want you to

AbrahimEsker: I NEED you to

desired hush: There is no textual foundation for your beliefs, as they are a conglomeration of many religions.

desired hush: that is such a ridiculous position.

desired hush: Anyway

desired hush: I have class

AbrahimEsker: there still would be no conglomeration, but you would understand how I connect if you knew my belief

desired hush: I need to go get ready

AbrahimEsker: did you block me on MSN?

AbrahimEsker: and Sephiroth too?

desired hush: I don't think so...

desired hush: Let me look

AbrahimEsker: oh ok

AbrahimEsker: thanks

desired hush: Nope

AbrahimEsker: I think he did

AbrahimEsker: I THINK

AbrahimEsker: maybe not

AbrahimEsker: hopefully not

desired hush: He was going to, but I told him not to be a pussy, and to face you.

AbrahimEsker: jeez I wanted to be his friend

desired hush: He knew you'd be angry with him, but he DID do the right thing.

AbrahimEsker: I was so happy with what he said about God

desired hush: He and I have been best friends for 2 years.

AbrahimEsker: hey I WONT BE ANGRY WITH HIM I just wont trust him

desired hush: And you were an idiot to assume that he wouldn't be loyal to me, when you were talking shit about me

desired hush: Friends have to trust each other.

AbrahimEsker: I'll still do my Evangelist thang with him though

desired hush: I don't think he is interested in being your friend, and he certainly isn't interested in your religion.

desired hush: He is going to be a Jew, or a Christian.

AbrahimEsker: I WASNT TALKING SHIT, I just said what you said was nasty, and that Christianity, the way people tend to understand it )( is not the Truth, my way is the TRUTH, you can find it EVERYWHERE, if only you would read though wat I say

desired hush: They are they only two religions based on FACTUAL religious texts.

desired hush: Yes, you did.

desired hush: Doesn't matter if you claim you didn't.

desired hush: Nothing you said was nice, nor flattering.

desired hush: You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you should have addressed your grievances with ME.

AbrahimEsker: I save my flattery for direct convo, what I dislike I do not say to the face of the people I like

desired hush: You called me a liar.

desired hush: Well, that makes you morally reprehensible, in my opinion.

desired hush: Sorry.

AbrahimEsker: I didnt call you a liar, its my opinion that you lied about the Qur'an

desired hush: I don't think too many people like being talked about behind their back, especially when it's an attack on their character.

AbrahimEsker: well I DO

desired hush: If I am LYING, then I am a LIAR.

AbrahimEsker: like being talked about

desired hush: My God....you're being such a dumbass.

desired hush: *sighs*

AbrahimEsker: Good or Bad I love me being discussed, shows people care lol

desired hush: No, it pets your ego.

desired hush: Disgusting.

desired hush: I', out.

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: I'm out.

desired hush: Later.

AbrahimEsker: ok later

AbrahimEsker: :-(

AbrahimEsker: :-*

Anyway after that DS and I seemed to be back a little bit... we had a second nice convo

AbrahimEsker: did my MSN stop sending messages?

desired hush: Yes....

desired hush: says you aren't online

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: last thing I said was "What is a friend?" for a dramatic conclusion to the convo lol

desired hush: haha

desired hush: And I couldn't give my anti-climactic answer...

desired hush: Because your MSN is having it's period.

AbrahimEsker: lol yes

desired hush: http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

desired hush: Hold on

desired hush: [03:57] Abrahim: what is a "friend" ?

desired hush: [03:59] Alexan: Someone I like and trust.

AbrahimEsker: lol oh ok

desired hush: That was my answer.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: I was firing off an email

desired hush: Sorry for the delay

AbrahimEsker: and you dislike and mistrust me cause I told your friend sephiroth that you said some nasty lies about the Qur'an and that Christianity was not true?

AbrahimEsker: when both of those are false, my misinterpretation.

desired hush: For talking badly about me behind my back, and saying things about me that were not true.

desired hush: I don't lie.

desired hush: I can be incorrect, but I don't lie.

desired hush: Lying is intentional.

AbrahimEsker: so was I lying intentionally? or was I just incorrect?

desired hush: I didn't say you lied.

desired hush: I said you were saying things that were not true.

desired hush: You said them out of ignorance, not malice.

desired hush: Though you weren't being too nice about it.

desired hush: Mostly talking about me behind my back is what sealed the deal.

desired hush: That bothers me more than anything.

desired hush: And asking my friend to withold information from me.

desired hush: Pretty low.

AbrahimEsker: but I talk about lots of people to other people when I tell them about them, Its not always bad stuff its usually just how I reacted to something...I asked him to withold information that I told him so that it wouldnt offend you

AbrahimEsker: I just felt that if he went to you for information about Islam that he would be told that it was sexist, brutal, and all that, and furthermore that you would attack based on what I had told him on the religion, so I wanted to prevent all that

AbrahimEsker: desired hush: 1. You lied to me.

AbrahimEsker: no I didnt

AbrahimEsker: when

AbrahimEsker: did I lie to you

AbrahimEsker: :-( there was no malice I didnt want him to think less of you

AbrahimEsker: I just didnt want him to get his info from you about Islam cause of what you told me about it, I wanted him to get his info from me

AbrahimEsker: cause if he got his info from you then I'd probably have to go and refute stuff I wouldve rather he got it straight from me so I told him not to tell you and that you would say nasty stuff about it like you did to me

desired hush: You have a snake for a tongue.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: You didn't talk about me for my benefit.

desired hush: Also, he will never be a Muslim

desired hush: So, you weren't saving him from anything

desired hush: He and I do not argue about Islam

desired hush: He detests it.

AbrahimEsker: I didnt know that at the time

desired hush: Of course

desired hush: And your assumption has gotten you into troubl

desired hush: e*

desired hush: No matter how you justify it, what you were doing was slanderous, and sneaky.

desired hush: I don't make friends of people that are slanderous and sneaky.

desired hush: Sorry.

AbrahimEsker: :-( you told me not to share your convos with Totse and I dont, I told him not to share it with you and he did.

desired hush: I completely understand that you think you did nothing wrong.

desired hush: But in my eyes, you did, and that's all that matters, since I am the one I care about it in this scenario.

desired hush: Self-preservation, and such.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: Totse is a public forum.

desired hush: Completely different.

desired hush: Also, he and I have been best friends for 2 years,

desired hush: That was your mistaje.

desired hush: mistake

desired hush: He never said he wouldn't tell me

AbrahimEsker: If I told you a secret and told you not to tell anyone I'm quite sure you wouldnt

desired hush: You told him to, but he never said he would

AbrahimEsker: even if you didnt say you wouldnt

AbrahimEsker: I mean

desired hush: In fact, he encouraged you to just be honest with me

AbrahimEsker: SO HE DIDNT EVEN GIVE ME A CHANCE he sent the convo the next day

desired hush: No, you made an assumption

desired hush: You weren't careful.

desired hush: You said that you would never tell me the truth

desired hush: Right in that same convo

desired hush: Now you are saying you would have ?

desired hush: lol

desired hush: More sneakiness.

AbrahimEsker: no

desired hush: Sorry...

AbrahimEsker: I dont KNOW

AbrahimEsker: if I wouldve

desired hush: You're not going to convince me that you're a stand up guy, Abrahim.

desired hush: That time is over.

desired hush: No amount of arguing will change that

desired hush: Sephiroth and I are friends. He is going to tell me if people slander me.

desired hush: He did the right thing.

desired hush: he has no allegiance to you, and he made you no promises.

AbrahimEsker: if you told me something and told me not to tell someone, and I went and told someone who is my close friend or who you were talking about, that would make me wonderful?

desired hush: You just assumed you had some sort of control over him, which was a fabrication of your imagination.

desired hush: I have said all I need to say.

desired hush: This is a dead issue.

desired hush: What's done is done.

desired hush: You're lucky I'm still even talking to you.

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: yeah

AbrahimEsker: and you do understand my side but still dislike me for saying those things about you to him?

desired hush: I do not understand people who slander and deceive, and continue to defend their honor...no.

AbrahimEsker: there is no forgiveness? I didn't think it was slandering you just by saying that what you said was nasty and untrue (my opinion), even in taht convo I mentioned I liked you despite

desired hush: If I had not forgiven you, I would not be speaking to you right now.

desired hush: Trust is earned.

AbrahimEsker: can I still earn it?

desired hush: You'd have to become a completely different person...of which there is no sign of hope, at this point in time.

desired hush: You are still defending your egregious behavior.

AbrahimEsker: k

desired hush: You have yet to apologize to me, either.

desired hush: I hardly see how you can ask for forgiveness...

desired hush: lol

desired hush: I gave it, without your asking.

desired hush: No sense in wasting my life on being angry with you.

desired hush: I gave it to God.

AbrahimEsker: I didn't realize I didn't apologize, I am very sorry for telling Sephiroth that

desired hush: Well, that's a start. Doesn't gaurantee friendship...just shows you are capable of more than I thought...though I had to tell you to say it before you actually did.

AbrahimEsker: Well thanks for telling me but I didn't realize

AbrahimEsker: I also apologize if I hurt your feelings at all I didn't mean to I swear

desired hush: Not only did you not realize it, but you continued to defend yourself...

desired hush: You know that's how sociopaths act ?

desired hush: As a psychology major, I'd expect you to know that.

desired hush: Thank you for your second apology.

desired hush: You didn't mean to hurt my feelings, because you didn't intend for me to see what you had said about me.

desired hush: You know damn well saying that to my face would have hurt my feelings.

desired hush: So, there is nothing for you to defend, but up until 5 minutes ago, you still were.

AbrahimEsker: when you said what you did about the Qur'an, my feelings got hurt, I like that book alot, and to say words like brutal and sexist and all that offended me, and so then I tried to explain it and you said you didnt have time which also offended me, so then I typed it anyway but then I thought and assumed "whatever, its not for her" so I decided I would never discuss such things with you (not knowing for sure if I ever would) but that I wouldnt bring it up

desired hush: 1. I didn't know you are a Muslim.

desired hush: 2. I didn't know you liked the Qur'an, or I would have been more sensitive.

desired hush: 3. You should have immediately identified yourself as a Muslim./

desired hush: 4. I was dog tired and not in the mood to read 400 paragraphs in defense of the Qur'an.

desired hush: 5. Many of the scriptures ARE brutal and sexist.

desired hush: Note: so is some of the Torah !

desired hush: lmao

desired hush: That wasn't an exclusionary statement !

desired hush: haha

AbrahimEsker: 1. You still don't know what I am. (My opinion)

2. I like the Qur'an alot, I also like other books, I'm a very big fan of the Qur'an though

3. I never immediately identify myself as a "Muslim" as it would mislead people in my opinion

4. Ok

5. Thats true and I even pointed out what people often find brutal and sexist but the reason I tried to defend it was so that you just didnt shut down to it.

Question, do you believe the Torah is the word of God?

desired hush: Yes, of course.

desired hush: But the brutality and sexism in it weren't from God.

desired hush: They were Jewish customs...

desired hush: And they were recorded for historical purposes.

desired hush: So we can understand what we have been delivered from, and the role of the Jews during the Age of the Gentile.

desired hush: Everything is in there for a reason.

AbrahimEsker: k

AbrahimEsker: Another thing that offended me is you said "Obviously you haven't read it" when I said "where? show me" in reference to the brutal and sexist things, which im sure you wouldve found but then I went and found them anyway lol

AbrahimEsker: its true my code of ethics is a little different maybe, at a buffet, if I come late, but there is an early bird special, the waiter who says "you know what? I'm just going to charge you for an early bird" will be considered kind and wonderful as compared to the waiter who says "you were late, no earlybird!"

AbrahimEsker: and before I spoke to sephiroth, I was so thrilled and happy that you seemed to like me and much of what I've done, and that we got along well, because the impression I had gotten from the forum was one that was not so pleasant, so I wanted to meet you online to find the real you

desired hush: lol

desired hush: You can't possibly be missing why I am unpleasant on that forum.

AbrahimEsker: you got all that stuff I typed up there?

desired hush: As they call me a cunt, a moron, illiterate, and a liar...

desired hush: Yes, I did.

AbrahimEsker: cool

AbrahimEsker: and yeah they are mean, but it is their own loss

desired hush: Of course

desired hush: But I love how everyone points out my hostility without fail, but ignores their disgusting venom

desired hush: Including you.

AbrahimEsker: tru

desired hush: This is the same thing I was talking about earlier

desired hush: Christians are hated because of Christianity.

desired hush: It stands to reason that if everyone hates it, just like the Bible said they would, the Bible must have a bit of truth to it, eh ?

desired hush: "Rejoice in your persecution."

desired hush: I am simply incapable at this point in my life of not biting back.

desired hush: I try, but I am too weak.

desired hush: Some day, I will.

desired hush: But not now.

AbrahimEsker: k

desired hush: Anyway

desired hush: I need to get to bed at some point.

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: lol k

AbrahimEsker: do you dream about stuff?

AbrahimEsker: ooh yeah

AbrahimEsker: I asked that

AbrahimEsker: almost sex dreams

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: No

desired hush: They aren't sex dreams

desired hush: Sex never happens

AbrahimEsker: yeah

desired hush: It is everything leading up to it

AbrahimEsker: "Almost" sex dreams

desired hush: Knowing it's possible

desired hush: But never having it

desired hush: Never even naked

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: Just pursuing the desirable person

AbrahimEsker: my life is an almost sex dream lol

desired hush: lmao

desired hush: You hole up in your parents' house

desired hush: What do you expect ?

desired hush: A miracle from Heaven ?

desired hush: haha

AbrahimEsker: lol

AbrahimEsker: are you still there? or sleeping?

desired hush: Yeah

desired hush: I'm here

desired hush: Talking to Seph, eh ?

desired hush: ;-)

AbrahimEsker: yeah

AbrahimEsker: jeez what is with him and telling you everything lol

desired hush: We are best friends.

desired hush: He tells me everything.

desired hush: I told him we were talking.

desired hush: I assume he thought I'd find it interesting that you were IMing him now.

AbrahimEsker: if I told you not to tell him something would you tell him?

AbrahimEsker: why would it be interesting that I'm IMing him now

AbrahimEsker: I've wanted to contact him all the time

desired hush: Because you are talking to me as well, and you have not exactly been the most honest guy....

desired hush: Just being careful.

desired hush: And no

desired hush: I don't keep secrets from my friends...unless it was personal about you, and didn't involve him.

AbrahimEsker: so if I said "don't tell Seph but I think ___ ___ __ but please dont tell him ok? " you would tell him?

desired hush: If I thought he needed to know, yes.

desired hush: I suspect you will never ask me such a thing.

desired hush: :-)

desired hush: I am not a secretive person, and I do not lie,

desired hush: I already told you.

AbrahimEsker: lol

AbrahimEsker: well damn

desired hush: You shoudn't be saying anything he can't know.

desired hush: I don't see why this should worry you.

desired hush: The fact that it worries yuo, and you don't have respect for that kind of loyalty and honesty says volumes about your character.

desired hush: We're not schoolgirls.

desired hush: We don't whisper, and giggle.

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: ;-)

AbrahimEsker: you would screw up a birthday surprise party?

desired hush: No.

desired hush: There is nothing morally unethical about surprising someone in that manner.

AbrahimEsker: lol k, but it is unethical to keep secrets from people that might hurt anothers feelings? Or to discuss people who are not present?

desired hush: It is unethical to keep secrets that aren't surprises...such as birthday parties. No one is getting hurt, in that scenario.

AbrahimEsker: k

AbrahimEsker: can I talk about people when the are not present? How I feel about something they did?

desired hush: You shuold always be honest, and forthright, in my opinion.

desired hush: The truth is a brutal beast.

desired hush: But it is always better in the long run.

AbrahimEsker: hmm

AbrahimEsker: I guess so but, you know if by magic as a hypothetical situation your husband happened upon me and asked me what you told me about him I'd say "I don't know man, nothin much" lol

AbrahimEsker: or if the police questioned me in the case of a person I loved I'd deny any knowledge

desired hush: I have told him everything I have told you.

desired hush: I am not a hypocrite.

AbrahimEsker: I know I'm not talking about that

desired hush: If I ever say anything about anyone, it is because I have already discussed my feelings with them.

desired hush: I am not a backstabber.

desired hush: I know what you're talking about.

desired hush: I am just clarifying.

desired hush: Do you sleep ?

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: lol nahh (lie) would you tell the police someone you loved did something wrong if they asked (even though you know they did)?

desired hush: Probably not. Doesn't make it right. That would depend on the crime.

AbrahimEsker: k

desired hush: If it was assault, murder, or sexual in nature, then hell yes I would.

desired hush: If they stole some shoes, probably not.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: But that's my human side talking.

AbrahimEsker: but you love them and the murder was a mistake and the humans would never believe him

desired hush: Murder is never a mistake

desired hush: That would be manslaughter

AbrahimEsker: well if I loved the person and they were loyal I would protect them as much I could

desired hush: If they committed manslaughter and didn't turn themselves in, I would do it.

AbrahimEsker: WOW DAMN

desired hush: Well, I am supposed to abide by God's law...not my own heart.

AbrahimEsker: lol

AbrahimEsker: thats in Gods law?

desired hush: "Thou shalt not kill."

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: yes I was gonna say that too but then I stopped and Moses flashed before me

desired hush: Also, our families are temporary, as are our friends.

AbrahimEsker: he wacked a guy in the face

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: I would never turn Moses in

desired hush: Moses was a warrior of God.

desired hush: It's different when God asks you to do it.

desired hush: He didn't whack a guy in the face, he killed a man.

AbrahimEsker: yeah I'm just saying, but God asked him to do that?

desired hush: Accuracy is important.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: No.

desired hush: He murdered before God came into the picture for Moshe.

desired hush: hehehe

AbrahimEsker: k

AbrahimEsker: would you turn him in?

desired hush: But ti was part of the plan

desired hush: Because it got Moshe kicked out of Egypt

desired hush: Which started the revolution to free the Jews from slavery.

desired hush: yes, I would have turned him in

AbrahimEsker: lol k

desired hush: Anonymously.

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: lol ouch

desired hush: He was the brother of the future Pharaoh !

desired hush: C'mon now.

AbrahimEsker: yeah thats not the loyalty I would like, I'd like to know those I surround myself with protect me no matter what

desired hush: I am the most loyal person I know.

desired hush: But I do not associate with people that would put me in the position of choosing between them, and the law.

desired hush: if it was a family member, I'd expect them to do what was right.

desired hush: It's unrealistic, sure...

desired hush: But I'd expect it.

AbrahimEsker: lol

AbrahimEsker: fuk dat sorry for swears

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: my family should protect me till the day I die no matter what I do

desired hush: After all the cussing I did at you the other night ?

desired hush: haha

desired hush: Helping a criminal is called Aiding and Abetting

desired hush: That is also a crime

AbrahimEsker: and I'd do it too if I loved the person

desired hush: You are putting them in the position of committing a crime punishable in a court of law, just to protect your ass for committing a crime ?

desired hush: That's pretty selfish, and a blatant abuse of love.

desired hush: I understand that you feel you are being honorable in this, but I don't expect you to understand where I am coming from.

AbrahimEsker: no I'm protecting them from jail and punishment and possible death, and we will flee or avoid that and if they confide in me NEVER would I tell EVER, what a betrayal that would be, how would I feel if I had no one to run to, I run to the one I love, and they turn me in

desired hush: I don't see it as betrayal. Don't commit crimes.

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: If it was an accident, then you have nothing to worry about.

AbrahimEsker: oh really? lol

desired hush: Like, if a kid jumped out in front of your car...

desired hush: And they died

desired hush: Is that your fault ?

desired hush: No

desired hush: So you should suck it up and wait for the cops

desired hush: People run, even if it wasn't their fault

desired hush: That's dumb

desired hush: There are really no other crimes that aren't unintentional

desired hush: If you commit a crime, you deserve your punishment.

AbrahimEsker: im talking about killing someone, in a fight or whatever, but it seems that you wouldnt get away with whatever excuse you have even if its the truth, so you dont wait to die, survival instinct sets in, you run to the person you can trust most or simply escape, but in any case if you love someone enough to trust them and tell them, then they should help you too, if they love you, so I dont operate on absolute justice and I think God is forgiving of such things as long as you personally repent, as Moses did.

desired hush: If you are in a fight and you didn't start it, you are fighting in self defense.

desired hush: That is your right, by law.

desired hush: If the person dies, then it's still their fault for starting the fight

AbrahimEsker: alot of times its not accepted as self defense, do you believe the Court is always right?

desired hush: If YOU start it, you're a murderer, and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law

desired hush: No, I do not believe the court is always right, but that's no excuse to be lawless.

desired hush: I never said God would condemn you to Hell for something like that. If you repent, He will grant forgiveness.

desired hush: But God is just, and He asserts the actions = consequence model.

desired hush: We see it everywhere.

AbrahimEsker: k

desired hush: If He didn't, there would be no Hell.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: k

desired hush: Sleep

desired hush: nice chatting

AbrahimEsker: yeah

AbrahimEsker: nice lolz

AbrahimEsker: reeaaal nice

AbrahimEsker: hahah cya later

desired hush: heh

desired hush: You don't like, you stop talking.

desired hush: Simple.

AbrahimEsker: lol nah I like it, I just, I wouldnt want to think someone I love would betray me if I did something against the law

desired hush: Ok, you don't have to.

desired hush: *shrugs*

desired hush: You have your own religion, remember ?

desired hush: Make up a tenet that says it's ok to have no morality.

desired hush: :-)

AbrahimEsker: lol but I feel the ethics and morality would be in protecting the person from punishment if the person explained their case and they seemed right but it was clear the evidence would be against them

desired hush: It's not up to you

desired hush: Justice is determined by God

AbrahimEsker: American law is determined by God?

desired hush: You cannot selectively obey God.

desired hush: No, the laws of the land say we live by a justice code.

desired hush: God commands you to obey the laws of the land.

desired hush: You can't pick and choose what you LIKE

desired hush: You obey Him, or you don't.

AbrahimEsker: God doesnt say that its ok if you dont throw the one you love to the lions?

desired hush: God says don't be a criminal.

desired hush: I think that says enough about what He thinks on the subject.

AbrahimEsker: lol

desired hush: He punished the wicked and unrepentent all throughout the Bible.

desired hush: Why should this be any different ?

AbrahimEsker: but what if they kill, repent to God directly, survive by escaping police, and do good the rest of their lives? and what to the one who may have aided them and also lives well repented but not punished, escaped the law?

desired hush: The law is the law. Evading it is a direct violation of a commandment.

desired hush: "Obey the laws of the land."

AbrahimEsker: ok

desired hush: It's pretty clear,

AbrahimEsker: and will I go to hell for disobeying the commands for my survival but worshipping and asking for forgiveness?

desired hush: Sorry you don't like it.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: You go to Hell for not believing in God.

desired hush: that's it.

desired hush: You can try and find loopholes, but trust me...it will bite you in the ass.

AbrahimEsker: ...what if you believe in God and Jesus but repeatedly break revelations?

desired hush: Revelations ?

AbrahimEsker: yeah like

desired hush: You mean commandments ?

AbrahimEsker: yeah

desired hush: If you continue to commit sins over and over, you should seriously consider whether God is even in you to begin with,

desired hush: You will be convicted by the Holy Spirit if you are truly saved

desired hush: There will be none of this "What if" crap

AbrahimEsker: lol

AbrahimEsker: I just thought it might be that, those who do sin get punished for their sin, not believing in God being one of the possible sins you can comitt, repentance being almost always available though, but repeating after repenting over being wrong and all that, but you are saying that all is forgiven as long as one simply believes in God and Jesus

desired hush: Your sins are atoned for, if you are saved.

desired hush: I said it several times tonight...

AbrahimEsker: lol k ok

desired hush: salvation is contingent upon ONE sin only, and that is disbelief...

desired hush: All other sins can be forgiven,.

AbrahimEsker: are auto forgiven if you believe right?

desired hush: To "repent" is to "abandon"

desired hush: That means, if you are truly repentent for something, you won't do it again.

desired hush: If you are asking for forgiveness for the same thing over and over again, you didn't truly repent, because you haven't committed to stopping that sin.

desired hush: [05:44] abrahimesker: are auto forgiven if you believe right?

desired hush: What ?

desired hush: Auto ?

AbrahimEsker: yeah auto by jesus sacrifice

AbrahimEsker: other than not believing

desired hush: You meant "automatically" ?

AbrahimEsker: yeah

desired hush: Ok

desired hush: All sins are forgiven at salvation.

desired hush: Past, present, and future.

desired hush: All of them.

AbrahimEsker: k k I get it

AbrahimEsker: thank you

desired hush: No problem.

desired hush: But you should still try not to sin.

desired hush: lol

desired hush: It makes your life better

desired hush: Anyway

desired hush: SLEEP

desired hush: http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

desired hush: I mean it this time

desired hush: G'night.

AbrahimEsker: Catholics and Christian denominations are forgiven too right? ok have a nice sleepy time lol

desired hush: Everyone that accept jesus Christ as their savior is saved,.

desired hush: Doesn't matter what religion

desired hush: Talk to ya later

desired hush: lol

AbrahimEsker: ok cya

AbrahimEsker: WAIT UP

AbrahimEsker: one sec

AbrahimEsker: lol

AbrahimEsker: AS SAVIOR?

AbrahimEsker: not as God?

Anyway! I didn't know you're still mad at me DS? I don't know when you posted that reply to Elephant man but he is on my AIM and we're fine together, he just got mad the first time for some reason cause I was being playful and he expected me to be serious!

Now that all the facts are out here in this post, for whoever wants to read it just relax, please don't be mad at me I never wanted to insult you or get into a tit for tat with you in anything thats why I told Sephiroth not to snitch on me!

It would be amazing if anyone manages to read the above post entirely without skimming. It is related to Religion and the latter part to Christianity too so it is still relevant to this area to some degree.

I read some of it. Don't worry about it abrahim, it looks like she just got offended very easily.

I've noticed that christians take it very personally and will actually get offended if you believe christianity is not true, whereas I have never seen a single atheist say something along the lines of "How DARE you say god exists!"

I've also noticed it is very difficult to discuss christianity with a christian. The discussion almost inevitably turns to the problems they think you have.

One of the most fascinating things I have discovered in all these arguments is this:

The reason I don't believe in christianity is the last reason christians ever think of; because I believe it is not true.

I have no alterior motives. I don't 'hate god' or 'hate life.' I am not uneducated and it is insulting to assume that I am, simply because I don't believe your faith.

I would appreciate it if christians in general could debate the issue at hand and explain why christianity is the most reasonable, plausible, logical, and correct explanation for life.

Lauren, you have no grounds to call logic flawed. Nowhere in the bible does it say to abandon reason. Abandoning reason is also referred to as "Gullibility." If God gave us flawed reason that points us to an atheistic stance, that is a malicious God.

Therefore, while you do not have to prove God logically, you do have to prove logically that it is reasonable to believe, and you have not done so.

As a rational human, I have no choice but to go with the logical, reasonable choice.

If this makes me less worthy of saving, your God is a disgusting entity not worthy of worship in the first place.

My god, reading that conversation, it is apparent - DS is officially fucked in the head.

abrahim you are fucking obcd or on crack or something.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

abrahim you are fucking obcd or on crack or something.

His beliefs are no odder than any other religious persons, and personally I think his are healthier than most.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Thank you for respecting my obstinancy. Your questions are answerable if you just give me the time to respond. (Something I don't have a lot of.) I apologize if it takes a week to fully address your response.

However, I really don't want this to turn into a creation/evolution debate. I think that would get us off track. Yet, if thats what you need to start considering the goodness of my faith then I am willing to oblige. I promise a full response as soon as I possibily can.



Thank you for being reasonable and planning on responding to these points unlike other christians on this site. I would like to point out that these are POINTS AGAINST CREATIONISM NOT INVOLVING EVOLUTION. I will post what I said in the last post to make it obvious that it in no way has anything to do with evolution.

"Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it.

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This is clearly asking for mathematics behind creationism, proof of how creationion and intervention is possible using physics and mathematics to support your claim.



How the light traveling distances farther than possible in the amount of time given by the creationist model, could occur.



(Nothing to do with evolution)

This is asking for an explanation of how light can travel more light years than it's speed in a vacume allows it to if the creationism idea of the age of the universe is correct

Why the universe is constantly changing and new stars and galaxies are being born at this time if the universe was born in about it's present state 6000 years ago?

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This has to do with why if the universe was created in it's present state 6000 years ago, how could it be changing so much that it would be logical to think it has been changing forever.

Why no non-creationist/non-religous scientific source agrees with your age of the universe?

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This has only to do with scientific integrity. For example why would nasa, and the majority of scientists all over the world have using scientific techniques determined the relative age of the universe that is commonly agreed upon, yet the only people who don't agree and "theologist scientists" who found what they call science based on thier own belief system.

Please answer these questions with the mathematics backing up your responces, and or claims.

Here I am specifically asking for a mathematic equation behind any creationist claims you make

Thank you."

As you can see NONE of that has to do with a creationist/evolution debate. It has to do with how, if possible, your religions claims could be correct. Also I never said your faith wasn't good in the sence that it helps people cope with loss and deal with stresses. What I am saying is scientifically I doubt your religion is correct. Many attemps have been made normally though incorrect scientific methodes, or just plain deception, that claim to prove creationism, but they wither in the light of science.

This would be no big deal if religous authorities(sp?) did not suppress scientific achievment and certain theories just because they don't agree with thier personal beliefs.

That is wrong, logically, and intellegently speaking, and information should not be denied to those who wish to learn. Your religion actually has a long history of supressing science and waging wars and witch hunts. The crusades killed a great number of people, something which I do not agree with.



I do not believe in killing human beings and bringing pain and suffering to people, no matter how rightous you or any god, president, general, pope or movie says it is.



Those are some of the problems with your religion, not including paradoxes and contradictions, which I may get to later.

I still await your reply which should be unrelated to evolution.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 06-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It encourages people to stop being so full of themselves, and acknowledge that they are not, in fact, the most important thing in the universe.

If fact it encourages the opposite. Christianity teaches that you are speacal, when in fact you are a living thing, just as speacal as the grass on your lawn, a fish in a lake, an earthworm underground. They are just as unique as every other life form including you and me.

Christianity DOES teach one to abandon logic for faith, it is completely unfounded from reason and logic. It is no more correct than roman & greek gods.



If you do not agree with this Digital_Savior you are welcome to finish YOUR debate in the Origins and Civil about the science you claimed to have while not giving any proof of your claim.

It is comparable to the crusades only taking a different victim.

Then your commandments said not to kill yet your religous leaders commanded you to kill, in the name of god.

Now your commandmens say not to bear false witness yet your religous leaders command you to lie, in the name of god.

Instead of human life as the casualty scientific advance is.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 06-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

...try as you might to refute my reasoning. You have not. Whether because you're so 'pressed for time,' or because you found it impossible to refute, I don't know. The recommendation is still up.

Pressed for time would be exactly it. I have a full day and usually a full evening. Most of the time I print off responses so I can read them on the go.. and I'm not trying to sound incredibly busy - it's just the honest truth. Now maybe everyone on this site has the same amount of restrictions on their schedule and I'm just slow- and for that I'm sorry. I wish I could dedicate the time and energy needed to respond- but as of right now, I do not. And forgive me, but what reasoning have you presented that I haven't addressed? And please, stop type-casting me as the "typical" Christian who avoids the tough questions. Please, will you allow me the benefit of both my lack of time and my lack of support.

My weekend is full- hopefully I can respond by Sunday or Monday... I'm sorry if you view this as some vast excuse to ignore you.

Christian people are really busy ok?!

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Pressed for time would be exactly it. I have a full day and usually a full evening. Most of the time I print off responses so I can read them on the go.. and I'm not trying to sound incredibly busy - it's just the honest truth. Now maybe everyone on this site has the same amount of restrictions on their schedule and I'm just slow- and for that I'm sorry. I wish I could dedicate the time and energy needed to respond- but as of right now, I do not. And forgive me, but what reasoning have you presented that I haven't addressed? And please, stop type-casting me as the "typical" Christian who avoids the tough questions. Please, will you allow me the benefit of both my lack of time and my lack of support.

My weekend is full- hopefully I can respond by Sunday or Monday... I'm sorry if you view this as some vast excuse to ignore you.

You see the reason people act so hostile toward this type of responces is they have been used by other religous people on this site in the past to avoid answering questions and avoid admitting they lost a debate etc.

It is easy to see why we would suspect it to happen again considering it has been used before in similer situations.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/uf/Patrician/Cheeky_Monkey.JPG

quote:Originally posted by Satans Handicaped Helper:

ht tp://everq uest.allakhazam.com/uf/Patrician/Cheeky_Monkey.JPG (http: //everques t.allakhaz am.com/uf/ Patrician/ Cheeky_Mon key.JPG)

Oh, right, I see your point. Yea, that's a good argument Satan.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Says the Communist.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

"42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. "

-- Acts 2.



"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet."

- Acts 4.

That sounds familiar...



"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

-- Karl Marx.

Guess what the early Christians were. Go on, guess.

Heh... I remember having a discussion about that a while back.

Religion usually does lose debates, though, b/c too much relies on the unseen and unproveable. So what happens to those who have to see to believe?

After Image,

I forwarded your response to my old biology teacher. He'd know more about science then I would. (I have to admit, science is not my forte!) I found some information about the gospels though.. but I'd like to respond in a complete post. So, until then I'd like Rust to look at this...

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5368

I thought it was a pretty good article. I remember you claimed that my opinion on the parallel between parenthood and God was flawed. Will you repeat your disagreement?

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

So what happens to those who have to see to believe?

I think the Holy Spirit guides a persons heart to believe. It's a matter of rejecting the influence of God in someone's life. An analogy might be those picture books where you have to cross your eyes to see the image. When you look at it for the first time you don't see anything. But after awhile the picture jumps out at you. And from that point forward you cannot look at the page without seeing the hidden image. God's majesty is in everything. It just takes an open heart to see.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I think the Holy Spirit guides a persons heart to believe. It's a matter of rejecting the influence of God in someone's life. An analogy might be those picture books where you have to cross your eyes to see the image. When you look at it for the first time you don't see anything. But after awhile the picture jumps out at you. And from that point forward you cannot look at the page without seeing the hidden image. God's majesty is in everything. It just takes an open heart to see.

the holy spirit... was given to us by jesus... who cannot be comprehended by anyone who dosent learn greek, and even then that bible is a copy to around the 23 power.

There are more mistakes in the new testament then words (http://tinyurl.com/q9whd)

so... where are your facts that this... holy spirt exists?

-I know im going to be totally disproved by you guys, just trying to kill time in another fourm cause mine is being spammed to hell. Ive never been in this fourm before, very intresting.





[This message has been edited by Political Prisoner (edited 06-20-2006).]

To be honest, to my knowledge, there's no "proof" of the Holy Spirit. I mean, there's the dove that comes out when Jesus is baptized, and the tongues of fire when the Apostles were blessed (it's in Acts), but that could've just been Jesus himself, for all we know.

The "Trinity" started due to a belief in that day and age (I don't remember which one, I apologize. This was taught to me a few years ago in Religion class) that three was a number sacred to the gods. A lot of Christian traditions and beliefs are rooted in other faiths. Basically, it was a conversion tool that was eventually just accepted as truth.

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

To be honest, to my knowledge, there's no "proof" of the Holy Spirit. I mean, there's the dove that comes out when Jesus is baptized, and the tongues of fire when the Apostles were blessed (it's in Acts), but that could've just been Jesus himself, for all we know.

The "Trinity" started due to a belief in that day and age (I don't remember which one, I apologize. This was taught to me a few years ago in Religion class) that three was a number sacred to the gods. A lot of Christian traditions and beliefs are rooted in other faiths. Basically, it was a conversion tool that was eventually just accepted as truth.

I think it was the "pagon" celtic tri force and that the church wanted to integrate them?

I don't really know. A lot of pagan religions fit into Christian traditions. Christmas, Easter: pagan.

Wearing the sign of faith on your neck: pagan.

Sign of the Cross/Genuflection: mark of service by the Romans

Kneeling: Romans

There are, quite literally, TONS more. The robes that reverends and priests wear came from druid beliefs...

I don't know them all, of course. But the idea of a god taking an inhuman form wasn't unheard of back then; it made the faith more acceptable. Hence why the Holy Spirit never has a human form.

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

I don't really know. A lot of pagan religions fit into Christian traditions. Christmas, Easter: pagan.

Wearing the sign of faith on your neck: pagan.

Sign of the Cross/Genuflection: mark of service by the Romans

Kneeling: Romans

There are, quite literally, TONS more. The robes that reverends and priests wear came from druid beliefs...

I don't know them all, of course. But the idea of a god taking an inhuman form wasn't unheard of back then; it made the faith more acceptable. Hence why the Holy Spirit never has a human form.

wow this is the first topic Ive had a coherent conversation uninterupted by kidiots in quite awhile- I should leave SG more often

[This message has been edited by Political Prisoner (edited 06-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

After Image,

I forwarded your response to my old biology teacher. He'd know more about science then I would. (I have to admit, science is not my forte!) I found some information about the gospels though.. but I'd like to respond in a complete post. So, until then I'd like Rust to look at this...

http://www .str.org/s ite/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5368 (http: //www.str. org/site/N ews2?page= NewsArticl e&id=5368)

I thought it was a pretty good article. I remember you claimed that my opinion on the parallel between parenthood and God was flawed. Will you repeat your disagreement?





Hmm, I guess the christian writing it was unaware of that whole, you know, 'omnipotent thing' that God has going for him.

Keep in mind that (although this is not actually possible) according to christian dogma God has free will. Then, remember that God doesn't commit evil (supposedly, although a look into the bible will reveal otherwise). Humans were created with flaws. We are ignorant, stupid, selfish, and a whole list of other problems. Evil comes from the flaws God gifted us. He didn't have to do this, but he did. We could still have free will just like God does.

This seems difficult; for humans to never commit evil yet still be free and be human, but I don't think so. Unless free will vanishes in heaven of course. Never thought of that, did you. If God cut the bullshit and just came down and introduced himself personally to each of us and let see who he is, I am pretty confident that everyone would choose (and freely so) to never commit evil again, because he is supposedly such an awesome figure.

So why doesn't he do this? Why does he give us little to go on, create many other options, create logical fallacies, nonsense, and other bullshit? If he exists, it makes no sense. On the other hand though, if he doesn't exist, it makes perfect sense- the religous leaders said faith is important because they know they have no real proof, so they make it a 'virtue' to believe without proof.

They have been surprisingly successful. Almost all christians look at the fact that they believe as virtuous of them.

I have asked many of them to explain why they think it is virtuous to believe without sufficient proof.

I have never gotten a single answer.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

So, until then I'd like Rust to look at this...

http://www .str.org/s ite/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5368 (http: //www.str. org/site/N ews2?page= NewsArticl e&id=5368)

I thought it was a pretty good article. I remember you claimed that my opinion on the parallel between parenthood and God was flawed. Will you repeat your disagreement?



Yes, I'll repeat the disagreement, because the article you have provided answers nothing. Can I ask why you think it's a pretty good article? It fails to answer all of the problems pointed out before.

1. It relies on the same fallacious analogy between god and parents. This, like I mentioned before, is not close to being an accurate analogy because god, unlike human parents, has at his disposal not only the knowledge of exactly when and how the "evil" will come about, but also a godly amount of resources at his disposal.

Again, society does not fault human beings because they lack the resources to prevent this evil. The same cannot be said of god at all. He not only possesses, literally, all the power in the universe, but he possesses the ability to spend the same amount of effort in stopping the evil acts as he would spend in not stopping them. When such is the case, any and all aspects of free will cease to be relevant. They become meaningless in considering whether or not these acts can be stopped, and therefore, who we should blame if they are not.

2. The article purposely downplays god's knowledge. I say purposely because I'd rather not assume that the author of the article is that ignorant of his own god's power.

It states "He creates human beings that He knows to some degree will go bad in the future". That is a gross underestimation of god's knowledge. He doesn't posses 'some degree' of knowledge on the issue of evil concerning his creations, he knows every thing; he has knowledge of the 'how', 'why', 'when' and 'where' of the act itself.

3. The author himself admits that he ultimately has no answer to why god doesn't save everyone, the very crux of the analogy to begin with!

The analogy becomes meaningless if he admits that he has absolutely no answers concerning the continued presence of evil, and the lack of salvation for some, which were the pressing issues the analogy was supposed to answer in the first place.

--

So yes, I'll repeat the "disagreement" because the "disagreement" stands completely. Nothing has been answered. Instead, the obviously false analogy continues to be used, and we're left with the same lack of answers as before.

Faith is an odd thing. However, I like Ghandi's statement on it.

"Faith must be enforced by reason. When faith becomes blind, it dies"

The belief of faith in the unseen, being considered virtuous, is because, SUPPOSEDLY (KEY WORD!), people with faith do good deeds.

As for the unseen part... remember. You're dealing with an omniscient God who sees EVERYTHING YOU DO. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

Basically, it was a conversion tool that was eventually just accepted as truth.

Well if you take scripture as truth then Christ speaks of the Holy Spirit. "And you will recieve power when the Holy Spirit comes..." Acts 1:8 - Luke wrote Acts years before the Council of Nicea confirmed the doctrine of the Trinity.

Rust, will she not believe what she wants to believe after she has 'considered' all of what you are saying?

Understand that she will not give you a response that you will be happy with because she herself has 'her own set of beliefs'. Beliefs which she has possibly heeded to for the whole of her life.

I understand that she asked the question, and she gave you an answer which was desperately defenseless and unacceptable to you. Probably to me too, I haven't exactly read everything.

Just let it go.

Christinaity is fundamentally flawed.. you know that, I know that, and quite possibly a vast majority of the world, today, knows that.

No matter how many words you type.. she will never recognise that. For the rest of her life, she will not recognise that.

Both of us know that while Christians ask constantly for 'opposers' to keep an 'open mind' they, themselves, are the the most close-minded people amongst us.

Just let it go, right?

quote:Originally posted by Ravendust:

Rust, will she not believe what she wants to believe after she has 'considered' all of what you are saying?

Understand that she will not give you a response that you will be happy with because she herself has 'her own set of beliefs'. Beliefs which she has possibly heeded to for the whole of her life.

I understand that she asked the question, and she gave you an answer which was desperately defenseless and unacceptable to you. Probably to me too, I haven't exactly read everything.

Just let it go.

Christinaity is fundamentally flawed.. you know that, I know that, and quite possibly a vast majority of the world, today, knows that.

No matter how many words you type.. she will never recognise that. For the rest of her life, she will not recognise that.

Both of us know that while Christians ask constantly for 'opposers' to keep an 'open mind' they, themselves, are the the most close-minded people amongst us.

Just let it go, right?

You make Rust sound like a drunken brawler being held back.

I have bit off a bit more then I can chew, now haven't I? In the last few responses alone I have enough to keep myself busy for weeks. Does anyone see that? What am I supposed do? What are you expecting of me? The only response I am prepared to make- at 3:57 in the morning is to Ian.

(I'm not using the quotes. To much hassle.)

Ian said, "According to Christian dogma God has free will."

This is incorrect.

Listen, please. This is for all to hear.

According to the Christian faith, God the father is not restricted by the laws he placed upon the universe. There is no time, there is no boundary- etc. The free will of God is different then the free will of man. Man does have choice, yet he can not control his entire destiny. For instance, if you have no food you have no option but to starve. God is not limited in that way. Thus, God's free will is seperate then human free will. - Can we agree on this?

"Then, remember that God doesn't commit evil (supposedly, although a look into the bible will reveal otherwise)."

How can God commit evil when the sheer defintion of the word means, "without God"

My point- is that you cannot put God in a box and say, "this is he." You can't define him in his totality. Words, emotions, drawings- all are futile. They are only pathetic attempts to summarize his vast glory. If we can agree that mankind is flawed then we can also assert that human reasoning is subject to the same downfall. I can only trust my faith in the Lord. You quote me a paradox that I cannot answer- yet this does not destroy Christendom. I can't tell you God's will. Just because our fallible minds can't grasp his plan does not make it nonexistant!

"Unless free will vanishes in heaven of course. Never thought of that, did you."

Just as Rust quickly reminds me that I can't know what his thoughts are. You must also admit that you do not know mine either. What Christian who can think abstractly has not considered that possibility? I've come to the conclusion that we will have free will in heaven- yet, we will have the certainty of God and will want to worship him. Why not start out with such knowledge? Possibly because God planned this journey for us to come to him. Yet again, since the Bible does not address the issue I can't speak to this in full certainty. It's just an assumption. This thought is irrelevant in the discussion of salvation and Christ work and deity. Which should be the main focus of a Christian debate.

"If he exists, it makes no sense."

It makes no sense to you. That doesn't mean it's invalid.

"I have asked many of them to explain why they think it is virtuous to believe without sufficient proof.I have never gotten a single answer."

You assume that because of this paradox there can be no other proof. This is quite contrary. I challenge you to read, "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel -- I think there is plenty of "proof" to validate scripture and if scripture is true then so is my faith. I don't think it's virtuous to have blind faith. Yet, everyone has faith in something. To challenge that faith- and to consider it is what I believe is virtuous.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I realize that I'm completely outnumbered-

-Lauren

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I have bit off a bit more then I can chew, now haven't I?

You're contradicting yourself by simply coming here.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I’m not completely ignorant to the churches falsehood and error. I just ask that you don’t judge a faith by the religion established around it. I promise that I will do the same to not judge your own beliefs.

-Lauren

Failed.

Ravencrest, how have I judged your beliefs?

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Ravencrest, how have I judged your beliefs?

Ravendust..

Dont be disrespectful, it makes baby jesus cry.

Edit: You haven't personally, but you have in your answers to others' questions.

[This message has been edited by Ravendust (edited 06-20-2006).]

i've read the case for christ and the case for faith. both are udder crap. he doesn't ask the people he interviews the hard questions and just lets them say a bunch of bullshit. if he was ever a strong athiest he would not have been swayed by such flute-playing.

Reading other people's IM conversations - what an eye-opener. I kinda figured Abrahim and Digital Saviour would mix like oil and water. Both of you could type at each other until your fingers were blue, and there'd still be no end in sight.

Abrahim - I'll e-punch you in the eye if you ever post one of our dialogues again. Understood?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Ravendust:

Rust, will she not believe what she wants to believe after she has 'considered' all of what you are saying?

Understand that she will not give you a response that you will be happy with because she herself has 'her own set of beliefs'. Beliefs which she has possibly heeded to for the whole of her life.

If she is so intellectually dishonest that she is not willing to change her mind in face of all the problems being pointed out to her, then that is her problem not mine. I'm going to keep posting if there's something I disagree with, which there obviously is.

Like the whale brought into existence from the infinite probability drive on The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

You humans are a simplistic organic lifeform brought to life by complete randomn fluctuations of the concentration of chemical compounds on earth, and you are sentient for but a breif moment and then you are dust, in this moment, as you are dying and living you question your origins- and having no concepts of the alien world that exists outside and around you, every premise, argument, and concept attempting to explain your existence is fundamentaly flawed. God is as uncaring about you as I am when accidentaly stepping on a bug.

I have an interesting argument for you I would like you to adress as soon as possible.

From my understanding of your religion, the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Well listen to this:

Lets say we take a newborn infant and throw it onto a deserted island. Now lets say we leave it there for 30 years, with all the manuals and textbooks nessessary to make the creature into an educated and understanding adult. Hypotheticaly, lets say it survived and read the books somehow and became educated, and intelligent. Now lets say, that this creature was never introduced to Jesus Christ, or any religion for that matter. It would be as shamanic tribesmen were thousands of years ago. Is he doomed to Hell, he never even HEARD Christ's name. But do you know what this individual most likely would do? He would invent a god for himself. I have come to understand that God is an archtypical construct of the human psyce, most likely stemming from the human brain's complexity and inability to determine a reason for it's existence, a basic truth to this universe is that life is absurd. So this being would come to understand the major biological processes from his textbooks and would come to fear death, fear the nonexistence death entails. He would then not only invent a God, but also an afterlife. Now, lets take the hypothetical speculation to another degree and assume that this individual was androgynous and capable of self-fertilization, he creates a tribe. Naturaly some of these tribal men would do something to offend one another, and then through shear time the aggregate would come to establish a moral code, a self-invented moral code. Now to expand on their self invented idea of the afterlife and god, they would apply their moral code and devide the afterlife into two polar extremes, as assessed by their obsolete primal impulses to lump everything into a pleasure/pain bad/good categorization system. This would then coform the tribe into a effective law, for the afterlife would work on the primal pleasure/pain bad/good complexes. A Hell and a Heaven would be invented, and bad people would go to Hell and good people would go to Heaven. A place of woe and a place of paradise. So now we have this self contained tribe whom has come to invent their own, in essence, form of Christianity, without the Christ. So you see? All of your religion can easily be assessed by the existence of these archtypical mental associations and impulses.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

After Image,

I forwarded your response to my old biology teacher. He'd know more about science then I would.

I find it ironic that you sent it to a biology teacher when it had more to do with physics, but we will see what happens.

And as you can see below nothing to do with evolution so I'm hoping the reply will have nothing to do with evolution, because that would be drastically off topic.

quote:I will post what I said in the last post to make it obvious that it in no way has anything to do with evolution.

"Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it.

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This is clearly asking for mathematics behind creationism, proof of how creationion and intervention is possible using physics and mathematics to support your claim.



How the light traveling distances farther than possible in the amount of time given by the creationist model, could occur.



(Nothing to do with evolution)

This is asking for an explanation of how light can travel more light years than it's speed in a vacume allows it to if the creationism idea of the age of the universe is correct

Why the universe is constantly changing and new stars and galaxies are being born at this time if the universe was born in about it's present state 6000 years ago?

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This has to do with why if the universe was created in it's present state 6000 years ago, how could it be changing so much that it would be logical to think it has been changing forever.

Why no non-creationist/non-religous scientific source agrees with your age of the universe?

(Nothing to do with evolution)

This has only to do with scientific integrity. For example why would nasa, and the majority of scientists all over the world have using scientific techniques determined the relative age of the universe that is commonly agreed upon, yet the only people who don't agree and "theologist scientists" who found what they call science based on thier own belief system.

Please answer these questions with the mathematics backing up your responces, and or claims.

Here I am specifically asking for a mathematic equation behind any creationist claims you make

Thank you."

I cannot stress that enought because I want scientific proof of creationism with the fundemental mathematics. Without this it is false. I still have a feeling I will get some reply against evolution not actually evidence of creationism.

Without evidence of what your saying, it is just as likely the world was made by greek gods.

So until undeniale evidence is presented, then I'll have to assume your religion is as unfounded as any other.

The only thing good about your religion is jesus. Unlike jesus many of his "followers" are hypocrites, phycopaths, and violently oppressive.

Without science your religion is little more than childhood fantasy, no different than any other mythology.

In the words of albert einstein:

quote:Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between religion and science cannot exist, I must nevertheless qualify this assertion once again on an essential point, with reference to the actual content of historical religions. This qualification has to do with the concept of God. During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes.

See why I view it as mythology?

In order for you to be any where near correct your claims must stand up to questioning and fully answer said questions.

Untill this scientific/mathematical evidence is presented I don't have any reason to believe your beliefs any more than the other mythologies.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Humans kill humans, wahh wahh wahh, light a candle.

Christianity is an excuse like any other excuse, but never has a bible taken a machine gun and blown people away, rather, people do it. It is humans, there will always be a human killing another human, there will always be a human dying.

Whats your goal? You want Christians to stop being Christian? Ok, fine, eliminate all religion, people will still kill. This was described in multiple posts on this forum including one called something like "Blaming Religion as Cause of War is Overated" by Crazed Hamster who seems to have been motivated by something I wrote in either "The True Religion" or "What is God".



what about when the Spaniards and others ravaged through turkey and other eastern countries killing anyone who didn't accept christianity? The inquisition? It was in the name of christianity...

quote:Originally posted by Ravendust:

Ravendust..

Dont be disrespectful, it makes baby jesus cry.

Edit: You haven't personally, but you have in your answers to others' questions.



Ravendust- my mistake. It wasn't disrespectful. On the contrary, you are mocking my faith with the comment about baby Jesus. Please highlight in other posts where I have judged a belief system?

quote:Originally posted by Ophidian Sumerian Dildo:



From my understanding of your religion, the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Absolutely!

quote: Well listen to this:

Lets say we take a newborn infant and throw it onto a deserted island. Now lets say we leave it there for 30 years, with all the manuals and textbooks nessessary to make the creature into an educated and understanding adult.

What manuals and textbooks would be used? Scirpture?

quote: Hypotheticaly, lets say it survived and read the books somehow and became educated, and intelligent. Now lets say, that this creature was never introduced to Jesus Christ, or any religion for that matter. It would be as shamanic tribesmen were thousands of years ago. Is he doomed to Hell,

"Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20



quote:he never even HEARD Christ's name. But do you know what this individual most likely would do? He would invent a god for himself.

Why would he invent a god? Probably because he realized there was something greater than himself.

quote: I have come to understand that God is an archtypical construct of the human psyce, most likely stemming from the human brain's complexity and inability to determine a reason for it's existence, a basic truth to this universe is that life is absurd.

A basic truth is that life is absurd? Please elaborate and validate.

quote: So this being would come to understand the major biological processes from his textbooks and would come to fear death, fear the nonexistence death entails. He would then not only invent a God, but also an afterlife.

So you claim that the human mind naturally invents God, which you haven't given reason for. Why would we naturally invent God? Then, we fabricate an afterlife. How would this assure him if he realized it was a figment of his fear of death? Does he not realize he's inventing religion?

quote: Now, lets take the hypothetical speculation to another degree and assume that this individual was androgynous and capable of self-fertilization, he creates a tribe. Naturaly some of these tribal men would do something to offend one another, and then through shear time the aggregate would come to establish a moral code, a self-invented moral code. Now to expand on their self invented idea of the afterlife and god, they would apply their moral code and devide the afterlife into two polar extremes, as assessed by their obsolete primal impulses to lump everything into a pleasure/pain bad/good categorization system. This would then coform the tribe into a effective law, for the afterlife would work on the primal pleasure/pain bad/good complexes. A Hell and a Heaven would be invented, and bad people would go to Hell and good people would go to Heaven. A place of woe and a place of paradise. So now we have this self contained tribe whom has come to invent their own, in essence, form of Christianity, without the Christ.

You say mankind invents a moral code to control other men? Or possibly just an observation of what is considered "good" and what is considered "bad". You also claim that heaven and hell is developed to enforce the code. It's a reasnable thought except this only works with works-righteousness faiths. Christianity draws righteousness not because of the fruits we make, but the faith we have. In true Christianity there is no required code of ethics. Our works are a result of our faith, not for salvation. It's out of the love we have for our savior. Therefore, the moral code is not a means to heaven.

quote: So you see? All of your religion can easily be assessed by the existence of these archtypical mental associations and impulses. [/B]

Not exactly.Not only have you mistakenly assesed my faith, but your analogy will never take place. (No asexual humans I'm afraid) You are making assumptions that such things will happen. You can not guarentee that it would play out that way.

Now you have hit an interesting discussion. Is conscience developed with nurture or nature? If evolution is true, then it must be assumed that we naturally develop a system of good and evil. Paul continues in Romans, "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." God instills us all with a conscience and we have the ability to seek him. I again do not know the will of God so I can't tell you if God has mercy on those who have not been given the chance to deny the gospel.

The requirement for salvation is as follows:

1. Recognition of sinful nature

2. Desire to be forgiven

3. Accepting Christ with the guide of the Holy Spirit

I think the Holy Spirit works on the hearts of those who are not given the chance to accept Christ.

[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

i've read the case for christ and the case for faith. both are udder crap. he doesn't ask the people he interviews the hard questions and just lets them say a bunch of bullshit. if he was ever a strong athiest he would not have been swayed by such flute-playing.

What hard-hitting questions does he miss? Please show me where Lee went wrong.

Now for Science and ID. The teacher I spoke of earlier works with all subjects within science. (small school - two science teachers, you can't help but overlap.)

So neither of us want a full out evolution debate. You just want some simple scientific logic to justify creationism. To narrow a bit, what specific area of ID do you want me to address?

Hi Theophany, been lurking and simply have to ask this question, how do you resolve the following:

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

How can God commit evil when the sheer defintion of the word means, "without God"



Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Now for Science and ID. The teacher I spoke of earlier works with all subjects within science. (small school - two science teachers, you can't help but overlap.)

So neither of us want a full out evolution debate. You just want some simple scientific logic to justify creationism. To narrow a bit, what specific area of ID do you want me to address?



The questions I addressed would be a start.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Now for Science and ID. The teacher I spoke of earlier works with all subjects within science. (small school - two science teachers, you can't help but overlap.)

So neither of us want a full out evolution debate. You just want some simple scientific logic to justify creationism. To narrow a bit, what specific area of ID do you want me to address?



I believe if you were actually able to address any areas of it with scientific logic, we would all be very impressed.

You have misinterpreted everything.

I gave a reason why he would invent a god.

Because life is absurd, becuase he would want to assign purpose to his existence.

He would invent an afterlife because he is afraid of dying.



The point was, what would become of an individual never exposed to relgious teachings?

Or christ? Would he be condemened to hell, obiously christ is the only way. This means thousands of ancient civilizations are doomed to hell, becuase they existed before christianity was even invented.

Life is absurd in that there is no reason or purpose for it's existence.

And we invent fairy tales of God to explain why we are here, we invent afterlifes because we are afraid of dying, and we invent heavens and hells to keep everyone in line.

quote:Originally posted by Ophidian Sumerian Dildo:



The point was, what would become of an individual never exposed to relgious teachings?

Or christ? Would he be condemened to hell, obiously christ is the only way. This means thousands of ancient civilizations are doomed to hell, becuase they existed before christianity was even invented.

The argument to that would be, "Yes, but not before God." http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

If every religion claims it's right, lol, then we're all fucked (pardon the language, Lauren), now aren't we? And the Bible's full of contradictions (*coughs* b/c it's been cut, sliced, and diced), so it's not the most reliable text.

Christianity's not about the religion (after all, there are so many sects in this religion alone, which one is right?). It's about doing the right thing and helping people, even if they're not Christian. So even a non-Christian can follow the message, even if they don't believe God exists.

My biggest complaint with your relgion is not the fact that it was invented to control a primitive tribal society, not that it is outdated and obsolete, not that it codones murder, rape, infant killing, and genocide, not the seemingly endless ammount of contradictions, not the shear absurdity of it's claims, not the fact that god made plants one day before he created the sun- thus providing them no way to fuel their photosynthetic processes, not that he was a brutal and evil deity, not that you r religion brainwashes thousands of impressionable kids and denies almost fuel proof logic and science, not that it is one of ten thousand relgions claiming to be right, not that it preaches tales of hereditary sin, not that it teaches that life on earth should be miserable because you are born sinfull and most conform to god's will, but the fact that you claim Jesus is the only way. I know shamans and buddists who make your level of intellect seem like a small bug, I myself have ritualisticly uses the mushrooms and left this world, talking with spirits and entites that gave me more spiritual insight then did an entire 15 year

upbringing around christian doctrine.

Your god is weak.

[This message has been edited by Ophidian Sumerian Dildo (edited 06-21-2006).]

You do realize we have proven hundreds of points, and you have not proven one right?

Dosnt that tell you something?

The only reason you have not abandoned your religion is because you fear "Hell".

And please do not pray for me, I take a very great offence in that.

[This message has been edited by Ophidian Sumerian Dildo (edited 06-21-2006).]

STFU! JESUS was AWESOME. HE Like Walked on wa73r and sh1t, and Pwned all the Unbeliever NooBs.

But, They were like "WTF! OMFG! LIke He's using HAcKs! No way! CHEAT! And they like voted to kick him.

But Jesus totally invented the Respawn point! He was like a 1337 HAXX0R! Like he got Totally noobed By Pontius Pilot but like respawned and PoWNED him.

If You don't believe in him he's like camped like, in heaven or something, ready to PWN you!

quote:Originally posted by Wavecrest:

The argument to that would be, "Yes, but not before God." http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

If every religion claims it's right, lol, then we're all fucked (pardon the language, Lauren), now aren't we? And the Bible's full of contradictions (*coughs* b/c it's been cut, sliced, and diced), so it's not the most reliable text.

Christianity's not about the religion (after all, there are so many sects in this religion alone, which one is right?). It's about doing the right thing and helping people, even if they're not Christian. So even a non-Christian can follow the message, even if they don't believe God exists.

I want to talk to you on MSN AIM or YAHOO

abrahimesker@hotmail.com

abrahimesker

abrahim_esker@yahoo.com

Look, I simply rock out with my cock out.

quote:Originally posted by Ophidian Sumerian Dildo:

....

Because life is absurd, ....

The point was, what would become of an individual never exposed to relgious teachings?

Or christ? Would he be condemened to hell, obiously christ is the only way. This means thousands of ancient civilizations are doomed to hell, becuase they existed before christianity was even invented.

May I join in? Ta.I've read four pages of karma resulting from theophany inviting everyone to a xian burning http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Have to discuss this with you. How is life absurd? There cannot be nothing, so there must be something, and there is! Good thing too http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I think, what about you?

There never was a person called Jesus, the stories are based on an historical figure who was called in his language Yshvh(Joshua/Yoshua), seems the ancients did not have a 'J'. Anyways it turns out that Yshvh/Jesus means God is Help, God being the first/highest/controlling principle(Dictionary), this means the highest principle of the universe is help. Anyone who has figured this out for themselves believes in Jesus.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

What hard-hitting questions does he miss? Please show me where Lee went wrong.



http://www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm

Life is absurd. “How can there be nothing, there has to be something?” you ask? Well, Santa Clause isn’t real, he’s nothing but the figment of children’s imagination, and imagination is something. So the meaning of life, too, can be nothing but a concept in someone’s head that does not exist in the external world.

I think I’m rambling bullshit here.

Basically, life is either meaningless or there is a meaning but we have no idea what it is, therefore it is useless to us. Also, why does life need meaning to be enjoyable? How do you know you’ll like your meaning in life? Do you think a cow would like to know the reason he was born on a farm was to be slaughtered and eaten?

Also, where do people get off saying immortality = meaning? That’s bullshit. Your life can be immortal AND meaningless.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:



Basically, life is either meaningless or there is a meaning but we have no idea what it is, therefore it is useless to us. Also, why does life need meaning to be enjoyable? How do you know you’ll like your meaning in life? Do you think a cow would like to know the reason he was born on a farm was to be slaughtered and eaten?

Also, where do people get off saying immortality = meaning? That’s bullshit. Your life can be immortal AND meaningless.

Yeah, it can, but no individual likes to think of him/herself as meaningless, even though, in the long scheme of things, people usually are.

quote:Originally posted by Ravendust:

Look, I simply rock out with my cock out.

I see you've discovered the secret of life.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

Life is absurd. “How can there be nothing, there has to be something?” you ask? Well, Santa Clause isn’t real, he’s nothing but the figment of children’s imagination, and imagination is something. So the meaning of life, too, can be nothing but a concept in someone’s head that does not exist in the external world.

I think I’m rambling bullshit here.

Basically, life is either meaningless or there is a meaning but we have no idea what it is, therefore it is useless to us. Also, why does life need meaning to be enjoyable? How do you know you’ll like your meaning in life? Do you think a cow would like to know the reason he was born on a farm was to be slaughtered and eaten?

Also, where do people get off saying immortality = meaning? That’s bullshit. Your life can be immortal AND meaningless.

Existence is real, it's not a figment of my imagination, Somebody pinch me, yow! I feel pain therefore I am http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Existence just is, it is the imperative, maybe there is no alternative? If so what need of meaning? We simply exist because the universe exists -- because there cannot be nothing.

Think of John Lennon's 'Imagine', what if there were no God above, no heaven or hell, would we just live for today? What if, against all mathmatical probability, we are alone in the universe, what meaning would that have?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

My opening topic for discussion is how Christianity affronts you. What has my faith done that would create so much animosity?

-Lauren

Hope you have not given up on this Lauren?

It's not 'christianity' that affronts me it's 'churchianity', this blight upon humanity that continually denies reality and seeks to set in stone various rules, principles and behaviours as determined by church authorities. Impermanence is reality! Everything and everyone changes, except the 'xian' churches, who seem more interested in power and control than in peoples lives. For example when Galileo made his discoveries, what was the church response? They subjected him to the inquisition and destroyed his physical and mental health. In modern times the denial of contraception causes great suffering and yet the catholic 'xian' church continues to deny this to it's parishioners on pain of hell!

Exercising power brings great responsibility, is the abuse of that power the factor that has created the animosity? Has the 'xian' church abused it's power?

In Australia, 'christian' missionaries, with the co-operation of government, removed the indigenous people from their traditional way of life and caused them to be restricted to various reserves and settlements where they were taught the ways of 'god'. No regard was given to their culture, nor to the tensions between tribes and clans. Strict cultural laws regarding association particularly of males and females were breached, traditional enemies became neighbours in a completely alien way of life. Children were removed from their families and the indigenous culture was mercilessly trampled into the ground. Regarded as being evil, of the devil, the indigenous culture was treated with as little respect and dignity as the people. Even after converting and being 'saved' indigenous people were not accepted and so condemned to a meaningless life in circumstances totally at odds with their long history the indigenous people became afflicted by the results of the misionaries misguided good works to the point were we now have the absurd situation were the government is going to forcibly remove those communities based upon the old missions because of the social breakdown that has occurred.

"By their fruits you shall know them".

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I haven't given up. Yet, I have spent the day playing tennis. Thus, I'm going to bed. However, tomorrow (after the world cup of course) I'll have most of the day to respond to the dozens of replies.

Until then- down with Ghana! - Anyone else here soccer fans?

4. Kneel To The Cross

[Sol Invictus cover]

Give us our bread and bury our dead

And kneel to the cross on the wall

Whether burnt at the stake or drunk at the wake

Just kneel to the cross on the wall

We've original sin, but we might just get in

If we beg to the cross on the wall

It's rattle your neighbours and rattle your sabre

But kneel to that cross on the wall.

See the roof fall, hear the bells crash

As flesh and bone turns to ash

Tried to conquer the sun with a Christian frost

The corpses' stench beneath the cross

Anf give them gold and they'll save your soul

And kneel to the cross on the wall

And hail to the boss of the great unwashed

And kneel to the cross on the wall

They wail and weep, the march of the sheep

As they go to the cross on the wall

And it's ever so wrong to dare to be strong

So kneel to the cross on the wall

See the roof fall, hear the bells crash

As flesh and bone turns to ash

Tried to conquer the sun, with a Christian frost

The corpses' stench beneath the cross.

And it's ever so wrong to dare, to be strong

And it's ever so wrong to dare, to be strong

But summer is a-coming and arise! Arise!

But summer is a-coming and arise! Arise!

http://www.fns.org.uk/ac.htm

[This message has been edited by Crippled Lucifer (edited 06-22-2006).]

quote: Why no non-creationist/non-religous scientific source agrees with your age of the universe?

http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/

Not all sketpics are Christian.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Why no non-creationist/non-religous scientific source agrees with your age of the universe?

http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/

Not all sketpics are Christian.



You dodged the question completely.

There are scientists who question quantum mechanics; string theory; and pretty much everything.

That wasn't the question. He asked for non-religious scientists who agree with your age of the universe.

I sigh everytime someone points to arguments against evolution as proof for creationism.

You need to show proof for your theory, not debunk the other ones.

EDIT: Double post

[This message has been edited by Crippled Lucifer (edited 06-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



You dodged the question completely.

There are scientists who question quantum mechanics; string theory; and pretty much everything.

That wasn't the question. He asked for non-religious scientists who agree with your age of the universe.

I sigh everytime someone points to arguments against evolution as proof for creationism.

You need to show proof for your theory, not debunk the other ones.



Thank you Ian you are completely right.

This isn't about darwinism, I KNEW you would do that. Did I not say over and over evidence of creationism independant of evolution?

Remember all the time I spent explaining my questions have nothing to do with evolution.

I demand proof of your claims, and I want the questions I asked answered.

Thank you.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Existence is real, it's not a figment of my imagination, Somebody pinch me, yow! I feel pain therefore I am http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Existence just is, it is the imperative, maybe there is no alternative? If so what need of meaning? We simply exist because the universe exists -- because there cannot be nothing.





You don't know that. As a human being you only experience life from a developed perspective, ever since you were born you have formulated an "understanding" of reality, who's to say that "external" to human beings such ideas are even comprehensible?

Imo, this is why people believe in God, they just can't bear to not have the "absolute standard" upholding reality, and proving their human beliefs "right".

Possibly life and reality is how humans experience it, but this can never be shown or known, mearly because we cannot experience life from any other angle. We don't know what it feels like to experience life as an electron, a tree or a rock, that would be wholly illogical.

All of the hardcore religious people in this thread have been pretty much rediculous so far, offering no real decent arguments and just arguing spiritual assumptions as fact, heh.

Seriously Digital, you really are insane.

And Lauren, why did you start this thread if your schedule is so damn busy? Did you think everyone would be "proved wrong" on the first page and just roll over and die?

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/

Not all sketpics are Christian.

Those people are Christians, or at least religious. Please notice that "http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/" is owned and operated by 'The Discovery Institute', the people who brought us the Wedge Strategy (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2006/02/Wedge.pdf), which aims to:

"...defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.

...replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.

"

They are Christians, they just use underhanded tactics to hide this fact in order to bamboozle others into believing they actually want to debate the issue of evolution in a scientific manner when what they really want is to bad-mouth science so that their religious agenda stands unopposed.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

I demand proof of your claims, and I want the questions I asked answered.

I was simply making the connection that several scientists, whom I am under the impression were not all Christians find fault in the theory. I just wanted to highlight the list of scientists who disagree with it. (Would it be an unfair correlation to link the disagreement of the theory to not agreeing with the age of the universe?) Your remark was that no non-christian scientist agrees with the age of the universe. I linked a list of Ph.D. holders who disagree. Not all are theistic, Rust. Just because the site is operated by a Christian organization does not mean all those who are "skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life" -- have faith in Christ. My question would be, can one disagree with evolution and still not believe in creation?

quote: "Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it.

Some of this is directly quoted from texts that I will site at the bottom.

1. Age of Universe Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field. Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. Barnes, Thomas, ICR Technical Monograph #4, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field (2nd edition, 1983)

Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medalist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years. Cook, Melvin, "Where is The Earth's Radiogenic Helium?" Nature, Vol. 179, p. 213

2. Stars Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data. The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator. Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space. This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars. Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22 Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994) Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166

Consider population World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies. (I know this addresses evolution but I just wished to contrast the information.) Baugh, Carl, Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)

quote: Why the universe is constantly changing and new stars and galaxies are being born at this time if the universe was born in about it's present state 6000 years ago? This has to do with why if the universe was created in it's present state 6000 years ago, how could it be changing so much that it would be logical to think it has been changing forever.

I don’t understand the logic? Can something young change? Look at the growth from a zygote to a new born in just under a year.

Lastly, http ://www.tru eorigin.or g/creatheo ry.asp (http: //www.true origin.org /creatheor y.asp)

After Image, sorry I don't know your name, will you please read the article above. I'm so sorry for all the delays. I expect to be back to check answers in a few days.





[This message has been edited by theophany (edited 06-22-2006).]

it's true that at current rates of decay the magnetic field's half-life is 1,400 years. but you fail to mention that there is a natural variation and that we have evidence that the field has flipped multiple times over millions of years.

that is evidence that the field hasn't been around long as much as the slope of a hill is evidence that i can walk down it to the center of the earth.

i don't know anything about time dilation but i know that over half of the population growth in the world occured over the last fifty years.

your arguments are logical scientific evidence the same way a brick pretends to be jupiter.

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:



You don't know that. As a human being you only experience life from a developed perspective, ever since you were born you have formulated an "understanding" of reality, who's to say that "external" to human beings such ideas are even comprehensible?

Imo, this is why people believe in God, they just can't bear to not have the "absolute standard" upholding reality, and proving their human beliefs "right".

Possibly life and reality is how humans experience it, but this can never be shown or known, mearly because we cannot experience life from any other angle. We don't know what it feels like to experience life as an electron, a tree or a rock, that would be wholly illogical.

All of the hardcore religious people in this thread have been pretty much rediculous so far, offering no real decent arguments and just arguing spiritual assumptions as fact, heh.

Seriously Digital, you really are insane.

And Lauren, why did you start this thread if your schedule is so damn busy? Did you think everyone would be "proved wrong" on the first page and just roll over and die?

What's to know? The fact there cannot be nothing, absolute nothing, non-existence? So simple, what is it about this simple fact that makes it hard to grasp? What difference does it make that I am limited by my humanity? Some things are self evident and need no 'proof'. To say or think that absolute 'nothing' exists or did exist, and from that came something is nonsense.

Does it then follow that the big picture is -- existence, being, is the imperative?

quote: Lao-tzu about Tao



The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.

(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven

and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all

things.

Always without desire we must be found,

If its deep mystery we would sound;

But if desire always within us be,

Its outer fringe is all that we shall see. (v. 1)

*

The Tao is (like) the emptiness of a vessel; and in our employment of it we must be on our guard against all fulness. How deep and unfathomable it is, as if it were the Honoured Ancestor of all things!

We should blunt our sharp points, and unravel the complications of things; we should attemper our brightness, and bring ourselves into agreement with the obscurity of others. How pure and still the Tao is, as if it would ever so continue!

I do not know whose son it is. It might appear to have been before God.



Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

"Present provable evidence for Intelligent Design or Creationism, whichever you believe in, specifically the act of creating and intervening, how it is scientifically possible and observable, with the mathematics supporting it."

You responded with:

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



Some of this is directly quoted from texts that I will site at the bottom.

1. Age of Universe Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field. Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. Barnes, Thomas, ICR Technical Monograph #4, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field (2nd edition, 1983)

Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medalist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years. Cook, Melvin, "Where is The Earth's Radiogenic Helium?" Nature, Vol. 179, p. 213

2. Stars Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data.



Reread the question, I did not ask the age of the universe. I asked the math behind creation and intervention, by a creator, considering the bible contradicts the big bang theory, which has mathematics supporting it, yet your belief system is that earth was created before the stars etc. At least thats what creationist say. Is that not your belief? If not what is? Also are your sources bias pro-creationist scientists or are the reliable unbias scientists who's work is subject to peer review? We will see later when I look further into this.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator.

Please present unbias sources of information. I will check all your sources to see if they are funded, run by, or influenced by religous institutes that would corrupt the "research" they conduct. If you would like to present information for your claim try an unbias source like nasa etc.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space. This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars. Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22 Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994) Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166



This also has nothing to do with the question you are responding to. Also I doubt those are unbias sources. I am more than happy to check to see if they are if you are claiming they are not.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



Consider population World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people.

This too is unrelated to the question which you are responding too.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties.

Normally I would maintain some degree of profesionalism in intellectual debate, but holy shit you just frusterated me. Listen closely, if you look at my posts they HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EVOLUTION. If you look at them I specifically said OVER AND OVER they have nothing to do with evolution, I specifically said please do not respond with something involving evolution, because I was asking about proof for creationism, NOT proof against evolution.

Please reread my posts and you will see why your responce should be UNRELATED TO EVOLUTION.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies. (I know this addresses evolution but I just wished to contrast the information.) Baugh, Carl, Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)



Unless you know the results of every desease/desease outbreak and every life expectancy of every civilization since the beginning of humanity, and unless you know the exact casualties of every war and genocide, and the exact fertility and mating rates of said populations, you CANNOT predict the world population in the inaccurate way of which you tried when you incorrectly "predicted" the population.



quote: Why the universe is constantly changing and new stars and galaxies are being born at this time if the universe was born in about it's present state 6000 years ago? This has to do with why if the universe was created in it's present state 6000 years ago, how could it be changing so much that it would be logical to think it has been changing forever.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



I don’t understand the logic? Can something young change? Look at the growth from a zygote to a new born in just under a year.

Lastly, http ://www.tru eorigin.or g/creatheo ry.asp (http: //www.true origin.org /creatheor y.asp)



I am saying that earth was created the same way as any other solar systems were created, and that our galaxy was created the same way other galaxies are being created this very moment. (creation through interaction of gases, space rock etc over a period of millions-billions of years)(if you need more detail request it and I will present it)

Also the website you posted was not a unbais scientific source of information, it was a bias pro-creationist source of information.

That would be like me posting information from a hindu creationist research center. As you can imagine their research would be inaccurate, and have agendas which would be trying to prove that the hindu creationist belief is the correct one.

On the other hand if we look at an unbais source such as nasa they will give you a dramatically different number than both the christian and hindu creationist research centers. This is because the research by the religously influenced centers is either falsified, or presented in a way that is misleading and bias, in an attempt to make people believe their religion.

An unbias source on the otherhand is working to get the truth only, and does unbias research to advance the knowledge of the human race, not to convince people to believe in a specific religion.

That is why you need to post unbias scientific sources, after all anyone can make a website, or make up information, and alot of people do in order to sell a belief, or a product.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:



After Image, sorry I don't know your name, will you please read the article above. I'm so sorry for all the delays. I expect to be back to check answers in a few days.



[/b][/quote]

Don't worry about knowing my name just please continue responding to my posts.

Thank you for the responces but most of them are unrelated to the question being addressed and NONE OF THEM ARE, OR SHOULD BE, IN ANY WAY RELATED TO EVOLUTION. At least you are responding and I appreciate that, just please present UNBIAS, and RELEVANT, EVIDENCE of your claims.

I look forward to your responce, some time around the 25th perhapse? Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Would it be an unfair correlation to link the disagreement of the theory to not agreeing with the age of the universe?

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It would be a ridiculous correlation, matter of fact. Evolution has nothing to do with the age of the universe or with abiogenesis.

You made the common mistake of thinking creationism wins by default if evolution isn't true.

Erm, no. Sorry. They are not equally valid theories; creationism isn't even a theory.

Let me quote myself:

"Creationists, I would like you to do something. Tonight, when its dark, and when the sky is clear, I would like you to step outside. Go into a nice open clearing and look up at the sky. Tell me what you see.

Well, I'll tell you what you will see. As you breathe in the fresh air, you will look up at the clouds, the night sky, the trees, the moon, the stars, and think what a wonderful world it is God created in six days 6000 years ago.

Then, hopefully, you will be struck with an epiphany. As you look up at the stars, so infinitely far away, you may think back to science class. You may recall the speed of light, and perhaps your unit on astronomy. I'm assuming you don't question the speed of light, as it is a very well known value. Then, as you look to the heavens, it will occur to you that the stars you are seeing now are over 6000 light years away. The light itself takes well over 6000 years to get to Earth, yet...there they are. Bright shining in the dark sky. Little pinpricks of light against the darkness. People have looked at them for thousands of years and as a result have made up a vast number of myths about them. Perhaps though, just this once, someone can look up at them and discover truth.

Over 6000 light years away, yet there they are. I guess it must be a miracle."

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

it's true that at current rates of decay the magnetic field's half-life is 1,400 years. but you fail to mention that there is a natural variation and that we have evidence that the field has flipped multiple times over millions of years.

that is evidence that the field hasn't been around long as much as the slope of a hill is evidence that i can walk down it to the center of the earth.

i don't know anything about time dilation but i know that over half of the population growth in the world occured over the last fifty years.

your arguments are logical scientific evidence the same way a brick pretends to be jupiter.

Overlooking all the Ad Hominem...

Will you site the natural variation?

AI (After Image), the 25th is a bit soon. If you're going to take all of my references and call them invalid then I'm going to need to take time to give credit to eachone. That will take A LOT of time. Plus, I'd like to forward this to my old teacher. Please understand that I am not a scientist. I can grasp concepts that are explained. Yet, unlike Christian dogma, I can't instantly understand then refute an arguement.

Now one thing- I am going to contrast Creationism with Evolution from time to time. For the sake of perspective. I don't think this unfair in a discussion.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

Overlooking all the Ad Hominem...

Will you site the natural variation?



stop being uneducated. as the ocean floor spreads out of the oceanic trench, the metals are aligned to the poles. on regular intervals those alignments flip, proving that the magnetic field of the earth flips every million years or so.

instead of just reading creationist literature, try reading actual science as well.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:



I carry animosity towards Christians because I feel that they duped me. They duped me and they dupe themselves and each other, and their goal is to pursuade the world to surrender reason. To 'have faith' instead.



O.O thats why.... you just changed minds to.....determine your fate for the rest of eternity? last time i checked... eternity is a plenty of time. try looking at "Pascals Wager"

Also, you cant just turn on god cuz u are pessimistic. Faith bring hope, and hope brings confidence. Without a thought to look ahead towards the future for good fortune, what is a world? its shit.

Also! dont you understand? this argument cant just prove or disprove god! mankind has been arguing with each other whether god is real or not for thousands of years. was there a conclusion? no, except the fact that god still hasnt been proven, meaning that god isnt known existent, BUT god hasnt been disproven, thus god isnt known nonexistent.

the argument, if still consistant, wont end until the last man roams the earth, and will go on as long as the sun burns.

Give up. Just wait for the finale. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by kingcong (edited 06-23-2006).]

even though you can't find any purple cows, should you hope and pray that purple cows do infact exist?

I hate debates like this. Half-baked arguments going against other half-baked arguments. Never goes anywhere.

Rust is right about that website you posted. It's by a Christian creationist group. Direct the evolution things to me and I'll look up some reliable articles about it. And hopefully I'll be able to clear up some of the junk from this debate.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

stop being uneducated. as the ocean floor spreads out of the oceanic trench, the metals are aligned to the poles. on regular intervals those alignments flip, proving that the magnetic field of the earth flips every million years or so.



That's actually completely right. In school we recently did a lab (albeit confusing with the worst directions I have ever seen) where we had to determine stuff like this. I can understand, though, why your average layman might not know about this. In which case, he would not be, by any means, a, you know, scientist.

quote:Originally posted by kingcong:



Also! dont you understand? this argument cant just prove or disprove god! mankind has been arguing with each other whether god is real or not for thousands of years. was there a conclusion? no, except the fact that god still hasnt been proven, meaning that god isnt known existent, BUT god hasnt been disproven, thus god isnt known nonexistent.

the argument, if still consistant, wont end until the last man roams the earth, and will go on as long as the sun burns.

Give up. Just wait for the finale.

Well, sort of. My best guess is that if there is a God, he would choose to either make himself known to everyone completely so that accept his love or not, everyone at least knows he's up there, or else he would never make himself known and then either judge us based on how good we were on our own, or else send us back through Earth again until we get it right or something.

So no, we can't really know if there is a God now, we can, however, figure out if any of the current religions are correct.

In all honesty, it is very unlikely that any current religions are correct considering how many of them God allowed to exist, how different they are, how exclusive, and the fact that it really doesn't make sense for God to judge you on what you believe in.

lol "Make himself known" Open your eyes!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

lol "Make himself known" Open your eyes!

You continue to act like you are the single enlightened one who has found 'God' and that we are all silly for not calling reality God; please tell me what use there is in calling reality God and what it really means to do so.

(p.s.- don't go on one of your excessively long pointless rhetoric writings about 'how do we think? how do we do everything? it's in reality! because that's not what I'm asking, I don't need you to prove to me that reality exists)

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

AI (After Image), the 25th is a bit soon. If you're going to take all of my references and call them invalid then I'm going to need to take time to give credit to eachone. That will take A LOT of time. Plus, I'd like to forward this to my old teacher. Please understand that I am not a scientist. I can grasp concepts that are explained. Yet, unlike Christian dogma, I can't instantly understand then refute an arguement.

Now one thing- I am going to contrast Creationism with Evolution from time to time. For the sake of perspective. I don't think this unfair in a discussion.

Did you not read what I said about comparing it to a hindu creationist research team? The christian research team is equally unreliable, so unless you can support you claim without posted referances to non-credible groups funded by, influenced by, or out to fulfill the objectives of a religous group, then you are presenting false, or bias evidence. Also I suggested the 25 on account of you saying you would respond in 3 days from yesturday which if I am correct, would be the 25th.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Also the website you posted was not a unbais scientific source of information, it was a bias pro-creationist source of information.

That would be like me posting information from a hindu creationist research center. As you can imagine their research would be inaccurate, and have agendas which would be trying to prove that the hindu creationist belief is the correct one.

On the other hand if we look at an unbais source such as nasa they will give you a dramatically different number than both the christian and hindu creationist research centers. This is because the research by the religously influenced centers is either falsified, or presented in a way that is misleading and bias, in an attempt to make people believe their religion.

An unbias source on the otherhand is working to get the truth only, and does unbias research to advance the knowledge of the human race, not to convince people to believe in a specific religion.

That is why you need to post unbias scientific sources, after all anyone can make a website, or make up information, and alot of people do in order to sell a belief, or a product.

Also I maintain the stance that evolution have nothing to do with this. If you want to compare creationism with evolution why don't I compare creationism with ford trucks. Evolution and ford trucks are equally irrelevant.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It would be a ridiculous correlation, matter of fact. Evolution has nothing to do with the age of the universe or with abiogenesis.

You made the common mistake of thinking creationism wins by default if evolution isn't true.

Exactly IanBoyd

You are also correct that she avoided the light issue, creationism is false unless it somehow solves the light issue. I also expect physics and mathematics to back up any claims you make theophany, otherwise you would be stating things without knowing wether or not they are true.

quote:Originally posted by kingcong:

Also! dont you understand? this argument cant just prove or disprove god! mankind has been arguing with each other whether god is real or not for thousands of years. was there a conclusion? no, except the fact that god still hasnt been proven, meaning that god isnt known existent, BUT god hasnt been disproven, thus god isnt known nonexistent.

the argument, if still consistant, wont end until the last man roams the earth, and will go on as long as the sun burns.

Give up. Just wait for the finale. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



In no way am I saying this proves or disproves god, this just proves or disproves creationism/ID.

On the otherhand can I ask why one should believe in something with no evidence? I see no need too.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

lol "Make himself known" Open your eyes!

If you study religion they each depict god, or gods, and/or spirits, in RADICALLY different ways. Who is to say any of them are correct? In no way have you opened anyones eyes.

Also many religions originated from phycedelic drugs of some sort. I also have no need to believe what ancient people saw while tripping on shrooms. So your responce should have been "lol 'Make himself as inconsistant and confusing as possible assuming he exists!' Open your eyes!"



[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 06-23-2006).]

I'm heading off to the Royals game- so I just dropped in to see responses. The only question I have time to ask is where I said I'd respond in three days?

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

You continue to act like you are the single enlightened one who has found 'God' and that we are all silly for not calling reality God; please tell me what use there is in calling reality God and what it really means to do so.

(p.s.- don't go on one of your excessively long pointless rhetoric writings about 'how do we think? how do we do everything? it's in reality! because that's not what I'm asking, I don't need you to prove to me that reality exists)

Whats the use in calling an imaginary mental image God? It can neither harm you nor benefit you, but the understanding of the original Truth, that There is Reality, and it is the only thing worthy of being called God does have its benefits in understanding, furthermore, submission to it is simply finding peace with it. I shouldn't be the only enlightened one, others have been before me, and you could be too.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

If you study religion they each depict god, or gods, and/or spirits, in RADICALLY different ways. Who is to say any of them are correct? In no way have you opened anyones eyes.

Also many religions originated from phycedelic drugs of some sort. I also have no need to believe what ancient people saw while tripping on shrooms. So your responce should have been "lol 'Make himself as inconsistant and confusing as possible assuming he exists!' Open your eyes!"



Its not up to me to open YOUR eyes, its up to you. Radically different METAPHORS for one thing, the history of Religion and the Development of Ancient Religions and Polytheism is Recorded in HINDUISM, it clearly shows how the original concept of God for ALL people, even the most ancient hunter gatherers, was Reality, that We come from Reality, are Dependant on it, Exist because of it. Reality has aspects and rules all aspects of life, each of these aspects were given names, each of the names were explained metaphorically over generations, humanized, and by later generations thought to be INDIVIDUAL DIETIES, those who DO study religion deeply understand all ancient religions at their root start with this basic understanding which evolves and mutates. Drugs were not required for the original development of these basic concepts but may have been part of prophecies and contacting various spirits and dieties.

1. Ancient Religions, even prior to civilization, started with the root understanding, that This is Reality, Reality is where we come from, Reality is in control of Everything, It is the God of all things from the River to the Forest.

2. The God of River and Forest was explained metaphorically and humanized, each aspect described differently, then becoming after some time, The God of the River, The God of the Forest.

3.The differences in Gods are differences in attempts to explain one thing.

Hinduism, Taoism, Islam, one Core God if you read about each in depth, the God is Reality.

You can read more about it in my other posts or contact me for my Reality Document:

abrahimesker@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



(p.s.- don't go on one of your excessively long pointless rhetoric writings about 'how do we think? how do we do everything? it's in reality! because that's not what I'm asking, I don't need you to prove to me that reality exists)

Now the irony:

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Its not up to me to open YOUR eyes, its up to you. Radically different METAPHORS for one thing, the history of Religion and the Development of Ancient Religions and Polytheism is Recorded in HINDUISM, it clearly shows how the original concept of God for ALL people, even the most ancient hunter gatherers, was Reality, that We come from Reality, are Dependant on it, Exist because of it. Reality has aspects and rules all aspects of life, each of these aspects were given names, each of the names were explained metaphorically over generations, humanized, and by later generations thought to be INDIVIDUAL DIETIES, those who DO study religion deeply understand all ancient religions at their root start with this basic understanding which evolves and mutates. Drugs were not required for the original development of these basic concepts but may have been part of prophecies and contacting various spirits and dieties.

1. Ancient Religions, even prior to civilization, started with the root understanding, that This is Reality, Reality is where we come from, Reality is in control of Everything, It is the God of all things from the River to the Forest.

2. The God of River and Forest was explained metaphorically and humanized, each aspect described differently, then becoming after some time, The God of the River, The God of the Forest.

3.The differences in Gods are differences in attempts to explain one thing.

Hinduism, Taoism, Islam, one Core God if you read about each in depth, the God is Reality.

You can read more about it in my other posts or contact me for my Reality Document:

abrahimesker@hotmail.com



By the way there is a religion that says all religions are describing the same thing, just from different viewpoints. I'm not sure if they came to the "all knowing conclusion" you did.

quote:Originally posted by theophany:

I'm heading off to the Royals game- so I just dropped in to see responses. The only question I have time to ask is where I said I'd respond in three days?

I could have sworn you said that. Oh well, as long as you respond in the near future, then I don't really care when you respond. Please don't expect us to wait forever though.