http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2446157.0.scottish_activist_films_isra eli_navy_shooting_at_gaza_fishermen.php

A Scottish human rights activist has filmed the Israeli navy firing machine guns at unarmed Palestinian fishing boats in the Mediterranean Sea off the coast of the Gaza Strip.

The footage, taken on September 6 by Andrew Muncie, who is from the Highlands, shows an Israeli gunboat engaging fishing boats while international observers hold their arms in the air and scream for them to stop firing.

No-one was injured in the incident, but Palestinian fishermen claim 14 colleagues have been murdered at sea by the Israeli navy since the onset of an economic blockade imposed after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007. Israel says patrolling these waters is a vital security measure to stop weapons being smuggled into Gaza.
advertisement

Muncie, 34, of Dalbreagha, Spean Bridge, is working with the Free Gaza movement and arrived in Gaza last month as part of a group of 40 activists who sailed on two boats from Cyprus in an attempt to breach Israel’s blockade. He was accompanied by an 81-year-old nun, an 84-year-old holocaust survivor and Cherie Blair’s sister, Lauren Booth.

Why is there an advertisement for a machine gun on the side of the Israeli Navy boat?

I thought we were against terrorism.

questions....

Why are the Israelis shooting at the water?

Where exactly are they?

Who exactly died?

And what was the reason for this?

"since the onset of an economic blockade imposed after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in June "

Violence for the purpose of political coercion, practically the definition of terrorism

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2446157.0.scottish_activist_films_isra eli_navy_shooting_at_gaza_fishermen.php

Oh bullshit.
Australian navy vessels fire warning shots at illegal fishermen and even asylum seekers when they won't turn around.

Firing at the water nearby is not however, "shooting at them".

Here's a hint:
If you are unarmed and the Israeli navy is totally free to engage you at their leisure, they will not waste bullets firing at the water if they actually want to hit you.

If this genuinely surprises you, please google "Israeli human rights abuses". Just make sure you're sitting down.

Oh bullshit.
Australian navy vessels fire warning shots at illegal fishermen and even asylum seekers when they won't turn around.

Firing at the water nearby is not however, "shooting at them".

Here's a hint:
If you are unarmed and the Israeli navy is totally free to engage you at their leisure, they will not waste bullets firing at the water if they actually want to hit you.

I agree.

They could of tore that ship up. There wouldn't even be a video left.

Oh bullshit.
Australian navy vessels fire warning shots at illegal fishermen and even asylum seekers when they won't turn around.

Firing at the water nearby is not however, "shooting at them".

Here's a hint:
If you are unarmed and the Israeli navy is totally free to engage you at their leisure, they will not waste bullets firing at the water if they actually want to hit you.

Is this honestly your justification? There are plenty few other ways of notifying a boat crew that they are being stopped for policing reasons. What possible threat could a junk-ass fishing boat pulling up its nets at open sea pose to anyone's safety? And they kept firing "at the water around them" (I thought I heard at least a few rounds contacting their hull) after pulling up right next to them and hearing the people aboard scream "we are internationals!" numerous times.

Is this honestly your justification? There are plenty few other ways of notifying a boat crew that they are being stopped for policing reasons. What possible threat could a junk-ass fishing boat pulling up its nets at open sea pose to anyone's safety? And they kept firing "at the water around them" (I thought I heard at least a few rounds contacting their hull) after pulling up right next to them and hearing the people aboard scream "we are internationals!" numerous times.

Don't bother, his response is a knee-jerk reaction to anything that doesn't paint Israel as an innocent victim.

Isnt this a common way Navy ships get a cheap ship with no communication equipments attention.

Is this honestly your justification? There are plenty few other ways of notifying a boat crew that they are being stopped for policing reasons. What possible threat could a junk-ass fishing boat pulling up its nets at open sea pose to anyone's safety? And they kept firing "at the water around them" (I thought I heard at least a few rounds contacting their hull) after pulling up right next to them and hearing the people aboard scream "we are internationals!" numerous times.

There's a big difference between trying to intimidate them and trying to kill them.

Like I said, Australian vessels do this quite often when Indonesian fishermen fish in Australian waters illegally.

from 2006...
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/navy-granted-power-to-shoot-at-illegal-fishers/2006/12/06/1165081019808.html

Navy patrols were previously only allowed to fire a shot over the bow of illegal vessels that refused apprehension. The new rules enable them to disable a vessel by targeting its engine or rudder.

The actions of the Israeli's in the video are unremarkable, not an abuse of human rights, international law or whatever the catch cry of the day is.


As for justification? I don't know, the video doesn't give a whole lot of context, and the ISM and other such sympathizers wouldn't tell the truth if you put them in the path of a bulldozer.

Shouting "we are internationals!"?
- maybe the Israeli's couldn't hear them, or another possibility, maybe the Israeli's didn't speak English.
Once again there isn't any context - where at sea did this happen? the article claims that the video was taken off the coast of the gaza strip, but there's no way of verifying that.

It's entirely possible that this occurred off of the Israeli coast, and that the boats were there solely to provoke this sort of incident.
After all, why do Palestinian kids throw rocks at tanks?

Don't worry. We will soon be too impoverished a nation to support Israel and they will wilt like a flower in the desert.

Israel can do no wrong.

Fixed.

I will ignore your sycophantic bullshit from here on out. You are a tool.

Done.

LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY, TEH JEWWWWWS ARE OPPRESSING PEOPLE!!!!



Fixed.

Good on them. Fuck the lefties, didn't see any lefties protest when hezballah fired 4000 missiles into israel last year (aiming on purpose at civilians) I don't seen any western lefties protesting against hamas missiles hitting israeli cities. What you see in the video is obviously designed to scare the boats crew (since they could easily shoot them and sink the boat but didn't). Whats interesting is we don't know if this took place within Israeli waters and if they boat was asked to turn back first. Israel isn't Sweden, Israel is in a technical state of war with many of its neighbours including Lebanon and 1,000 Israelis have been murdered by islamic terrorists in the last 5 years (This is the per capita equivalent of 65,000 europeans being killed in the last 5 years to put it in context). Israel is not gonna act like pussies.

Fuck Eurodhimmis!

See this link from indymedia
http://www.indymedia.org/en/2008/09/913246.shtml

. Fuck the lefties, didn't see any lefties protest when hezballah fired 4000 missiles into israel last year (aiming on purpose at civilians)

the Zionist scum had not problem doing the same to Lebanon in the past and Israel constantly flew over Lebanese airspace. the Zionists were provoking and got a raid

I don't seen any western lefties protesting against hamas missiles hitting israeli cities.

because the Jews came in, took their land, exploited and distorted the holocaust to fit their views (hey where's the Eastern Front and Generalplan Ost in there? oops JEWS GOT PUTIN CAMPS!!!111 we need a nation so we can do the same to Palestinians)

Israel is not gonna act like pussies.

so they act like assholes then.

See this link from indymedia
http://www.indymedia.org/en/2008/09/913246.shtml


Thanks for proving my point.


the Zionist scum had not problem doing the same to Lebanon in the past and Israel constantly flew over Lebanese airspace. the Zionists were provoking and got a raid

So who started that war?


because the Jews came in, took their land, exploited and distorted the holocaust to fit their views (hey where's the Eastern Front and Generalplan Ost in there? oops JEWS GOT PUTIN CAMPS!!!111 we need a nation so we can do the same to Palestinians)


What are PUTIN camps? are they those camps they have in Russia where they try to get teenagers to pair off and screw in order to increase their declining population?
Give birth to a patriot comrade!

... anyway

There I was thinking that Israel was created from the British Mandate of Palestine (along with Jordan) and that the west bank and Gaza were in fact the territory of Jordan and Egypt respectively following 1948 war, only to be occupied by Israel after the six day war in 1967.

This doesn't come close to the crimes the Israelis commit on daily bases...

This doesn't come close to the crimes the Israelis commit on daily bases...

Wow! really?
You said it, so I guess I'll just have to just take your word for it and accept your statement as truth!

Wow! really?
You said it, so I guess I'll just have to just take your word for it and accept your statement as truth!

Like I said above, if this genuinely surprises you then google "Israeli human rights abuses"

Using civilians as human shields, taking political prisoners, imprisoning children without trial or explanation, using flechete weapons and cluster bombs in residential areas are all things they have been "reprimanded" for by the UN.

But then don't take my word for it, try doing some reading around.

LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY, TEH JEWWWWWS ARE OPPRESSING PEOPLE!!!!
.

Fail.

I am not suggesting the Jews are completely the problem here. Unlike you, I am willing to recognize pretty equal fault on both sides. UNLIKE you, I try to get plenty of information before I form an opinion on something.

I still stand by my assessment of you as a sycophantic ignorant tool.

Like I said above, if this genuinely surprises you then google "Israeli human rights abuses"

Using civilians as human shields, taking political prisoners, imprisoning children without trial or explanation, using flechete weapons and cluster bombs in residential areas are all things they have been "reprimanded" for by the UN.

But then don't take my word for it, try doing some reading around.

I Googled. The first result was about US policy toward NGO's and didn't detail israeli human rights abuses.
Second result sported a hammer and sickle.

I don't take socialists any more seriously then I take pro lifers - someone with an agenda like that in fact almost has an obligation to distort (or make up)facts in order to push it.
I wouldn't send you to say, littlegreenfootballs.com and tell you to read and believe after all. :)

I'm keen to approach this rationally, after all it isn't like you've come spouting accusations of them stealing organs or anything.


For the things you mentioned:
-Using civilians as human shields
I acknowledge that this has occurred. I also acknowledge that it was done away with by the Israeli legal system.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4314898.stm

To some extent though this is very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
From your posts in other threads, I am sure your understanding of the tactics of Palestinian terrorists and Hezbollah is sufficient for you to know what I mean ;)


-taking political prisoners,
It'd be great if you could provide a link.
I've read a little about the thousands of so called political prisoners, but there generally isn't a great deal of detail.

I'd add two things
-that if you've got an AK47 in hand, you probably don't count as a political prisoner even if your fellow countrymen think otherwise. We also have the whole problem of "who is a soldier, who is a civilian?".
-given the fact that the Palestinian National Authority is part of the PLO, which is in effect a 'union' of what many would consider to be terrorist organizations, it's we're fact with the situation where many people involved in the government or in politics on behalf of Palestinians would also be involved in terrorist activities.

-imprisoning children without trial or explanation
could you link me?

-using flechete weapons and cluster bombs in residential areas

neither of these weapons are prohibited in and of themselves.
Fighting in residential areas is always a problem in when one side is adept at asymmetric warfare. Such fighting would not even occur if terrorists did not use residential areas as their bases of operations, and in the case of the 2006 war in particular, staging points for rocket attacks.

Furthermore, I'd question whether condemnation by the UN actually has any bearing on whether or not an action is an abuse of human rights. Surely to be an abuse of human rights an action would need to transgress one of the various sets of standards that define such rights.
In reality, establishing breaches of law(including so called 'international law') is a tad easier, since provided we can agree that a given treaty, agreement or norm applies(which shouldn't be a problem), it should be clear whether it has or has not been breached.
I mean... it's a little ridiculous to put such a thing up to 'democratic consensus' now isn't it?'


More to the point though this thread isn't about Israeli human rights abuses per se, but about this video.
I never claimed that Israel is free from all human rights abuses.
What I claimed, and continue to claim, is that there aren't any such abuses in this video, and that what occurred in the video is not unusual conduct in the context of how western navies (I assume we'll hold them to 'our' standards) deal with vessels in their waters.
If Star wars fan's link is indeed related to this, it seems likely that the video could have occurred in one of these "blockade runs".

Fail.

I am not suggesting the Jews are completely the problem here. Unlike you, I am willing to recognize pretty equal fault on both sides. UNLIKE you, I try to get plenty of information before I form an opinion on something.

I still stand by my assessment of you as a sycophantic ignorant tool.

Juvenile behavior gets a juvenile response.

You've drawn a very wide bow.
I have *plenty* of information on this. You haven't in any way attempted to engage me in debate, simply posted that you're ignoring me. That's juvenile.

Are you prepared to state your reasoning as to why I am a
"sycophantic ignorant tool"? I don't really think I posted enough in this thread for you to draw that conclusion.
All I did was point out that Australian Navy vessels also fire warning shots (and are in fact permitted to disable engines!), that if the Israeli's had wanted to hit the boats they could have, and that the video lacked the context to allow any determination as to where the 'attack' occurred.

Star wars fan was kind enough to provide a link:
http://www.indymedia.org/en/2008/09/913246.shtml
which seems to indicate that western activists and Palestinians are in fact entering Israeli waters.
This is of coarse a problem that stems from the fact that Gaza is not a Country, but that in itself doesn't mean that Israel is violating human rights.

I recommend a book called

The Centre on Housing Rights and Evictions (COHRE)
BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency & Refugee Rights
Ruling Palestine: A History of the Legally Sanctioned Jewish-Israeli Seizure of Land and Housing in Palestine


It'll be enough...

This is nothing new. Israel is infamous for their cruelty. I think it's highly plausible that they would've fallen by now if not for the support of the United States. I hate to say it, but peace has no chance in that region any longer. This feud has been going on for too long, and it will only end one of two ways: Israel finally falls to the Arab nations and Jerusalem is reclaimed or the United States will come to their aid in the scenario that an all out war breaks out in the region. I'm not sure if the latter is a possibility with the current state of affairs. I don't support the killing of any innocent people, but I feel an all out war in the region is inevitable. Peace talks can't change a feud rooted this deeply.

so a bunch of capitalist backed jews and a bunch of fundamentalist backed arabs are taking turns killing each others civilians.

whats new?

Are you prepared to state your reasoning as to why I am a
"sycophantic ignorant tool".

No you will.

Does Israel engage in human rights abuses?

No you will.

Does Israel engage in human rights abuses?


Irrelevant you dill.



More to the point though this thread isn't about Israeli human rights abuses per se, but about this video.
I never claimed that Israel is free from all human rights abuses.
What I claimed, and continue to claim, is that there aren't any such abuses in this video, and that what occurred in the video is not unusual conduct in the context of how western navies (I assume we'll hold them to 'our' standards) deal with vessels in their waters.


Whether or not Israel has engaged in human rights abuses in the past, or continues to engage in human rights abuses has no bearing on whether this 'incident' was a human rights abuse.

I recommend a book called

The Centre on Housing Rights and Evictions (COHRE)
BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency & Refugee Rights
Ruling Palestine: A History of the Legally Sanctioned Jewish-Israeli Seizure of Land and Housing in Palestine


It'll be enough...

Stating the obvious?
everyone knows about Jewish settlements in the west bank (and formerly Gaza).

Link/Article-Only->News of the World.

Stating the obvious?
everyone knows about Jewish settlements in the west bank (and formerly Gaza).

Yeah but the methods they use to achieve it are incredible, in terms of crueitly and penetration of human rights, as that book explains with facts, something that Dichromate wants.